2001 Carrera 4 IMS Service Questions

Been a Cayenne owner for 13 years, finally picked up my first 911, 2001 996 Carrera 4 automatic 68k miles. Getting quotes on an IMS service. Something's come up. All the quotes include dropping the transmission of course. One has come in saying an engine out is necessary. Correct or no? Thanks in advance.

No its a transmission drop with engine out its easier to tend to a few other "while your in there" items if the price is close I'd do the engine out and address water pump, AOS, check belts and pulleys etc...

The price isn't close, a lot more. What's an AOS? At 68k miles, what are the odds the water pump would go anytime soon, or is it more of an age thing or combination of both? Does the water pump require an engine out when it goes, or is it just easier to deal with engine out? Thanks!

IMO, and this is just my opinion. The M96 motors are not easily purchased used if something catastrophic happens. I would rather have the IMSB service done correctly, than not done at all. It's not really something you want to skimp out on. If a reputable shop prefers to drop the motor so they can inspect and replace other items, then i'm all for it. The dealer that sold me the car mentioned he's got a 'guy' who can do the IMSB update for $1500 bucks. I rather go to a reputable indy, than have something done cheaply, and risk destroying my motor. But obviously YMMV.

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I'm talking to several shops, but you just perfectly described one of them. Guy has done some great work on my Cayenne, but never had him do open heart surgery. So exactly how hard a surgery is this? Is it an appendectomy or open heart surgery? I wouldn't know, haven't worked on a motor myself since my '78 TA, and the deepest I ever got into that was the cam shaft. So for a really solid indy, his this a tough operation or relatively easy, just a lot of labor? But for the record, the difference between the indy in question and the massive quote I just received from the one shop is about 80%, huge difference. Others in between.

Well, you're replacing the bearing on which one end of the lay shaft rides. If the bearing craps out, your timing jumps and your engine becomes a $20K paperweight. So, it's important - but it's also NOT rocket science. I would rather pay 10% more to have someone who has a track record of successful retrofits over saving a few bucks to be Gunter's experiment... Let's liken this to having a pacemaker installed...it's not a particularly risky surgery in the grand scheme of things, but if it isn't done right, the recipient is going to die.

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There you have it. You said it better than I can. I've been reading tons of threads here, and have yet to read one where someone felt they overpaid for a quality IMSB install. Did read a story here where someone tried to do it cheaply, and it didn't end up well.

Also if I lived anywhere close to Cleveland, GA (which is funny, i've actually been there twice!) I would spend the $5K and get it done here: http://flat6innovations.com/index.ph...shaft-retrofit

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I'm not, but there are a few great shops in the D.C. area. You're making the expensive $4k service sound downright reasonable. And this shop has done over 100, all with LN, never a problem. Was hoping to spend a bit less though. While at it will do the oil air separator and main seal.

Had a second shop last night, a good one, tell me the only practical way to do it correctly is with the engine out. This shop knows the owner/founder of LN, has hosted several PCA lunch n' learns with LN, done over 100 IMS services. I'm heeding the advice here, going with a top shop. Doing the oil air separator, main seal and coolant tank while I'm at it.

My understanding is Tiptronic = engine out like mine was. Make sure the Indy is on the certified or approved list on the flatsix website as this is considered a value add instead of the opposite. Do all that other stuff while in there and enjoy the car.

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I'm in NoVA too. If you haven't already, talk to Ivan at IMA in Chantilly. Been very happy since I switched to him for the 996 and 958 (he also takes care of the e90). Can't tell you what he charged me for the IMSB replacement as it was part of a package deal he did for me when the transmission had to be rebuilt and a list of other things that had been put off a decade or so...

Had mine done by Northside Houston Porsche a few years ago ('01 C4 tip). They did drop engine and replaced the water pump, did the 60K work as well. Cost was about $4K (at dealership). In addition, they weren't sure if it was a single or double row IMSB, so when they found out, called Jake and he overnighted the part while my car was on the rack. Worked great. All that's behind me and I can drive it like it's stolen...

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Ivan did my upper and lower control arms on my beloved '06 Cayenne TTS. good guy. And in fact he's getting the job. Gotten quotes from a few shops, but I'm going back to Ivan. Might even be dropping it off tomorrow. I'm in the same boat, single or double. Apparently even a vin search for 2001's yeilds wildly inaccurate results, so there's no way of knowing until you're eyes on. If I knew it was a double for sure, I might not bother. But I also want to drive it like I stole it, want the peace of mind. Only has 68k miles, so lots of fun to be had. Just posted this evening in another thread though and I'll ask here as well, if we get in there and it's a double, is there any history of failure of the LN single row replacement? If it's a single, will have to decide if LN regular replacement or IMS Solution.

I misspoke last night. If we get it town down and it isn't a double row bearing, I have a choice, the LN single row bearing replacement or the IMS solution. So again the question is, does the LN single row replacement ever fail? I know it "can" theoretically, but it's better material and better oiled than stock. Are there any documented cases of the LN bearing ever failing?

It is my understanding that you can replace the single row bearing with the LN Single Row Pro which is a double row bearing with a longer warranty - 6 years, 75 k miles. If I'm right, it sounds like a better option.

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Not to respond all philosophical, but remember Murphy's law, paraphrased - if there are any chances of failure (even the smallest of percentages), then it can fail. But if I'm not mistaken, Jake Raby has stated there are NO known documented failures with IMS solution to date. And so if you want to make it permanent, then go with the "IMS Solution".

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I understand. Thanks. But are there any known failures with the basic LN replacement? Anyone know?

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I don't want to speak for Jake Raby by no means, but that's a hard one to quantify when there are so many modes of failure with the M96 engine. What we're seeing here on RL, is that there are many shops and DIY'ers installing IMS retro fits without properly certifying the engine in the first place. Making sure that damage has not already begun BEFORE installing a new IMS is paramount. Unfortunately, many shops install the IMS retro fits on many M96 engines that should have been denied. And, in many of the failure cases, the IMS is the scapegoat and gets blamed for the failure.

Yes there have. But, it has been suggested that the failure may not have been due to the bearing itself, but to some other factor such as: - a pre-existing condition and the engine was not pre-qualified - improper install - some other mode of failure that then lead to the bearing failure As others have said, and I tend to agree, the Solution is the best solution out there.

I've heard Jake say many times, that M96 engines have come into his shop for IMS solution installations, and he has denied them when the engine was opened for a thorough pre-qualification procedure. Once they opened the engine, it was clear damage had already begun beyond the point of repair.

It's a terrible thing buying a car and waiting my turn to have the engine cracked open to see if it's going to cost me twice what I paid.

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I think you mean to be saying M96 engines...

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thanks man... haven't made it through my first cup of coffee yet. hahaha... where the heck did I get "65"? hahaha

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Sounds like you did your research prior to purchase. If such was the case, then you should have known well in advance how much it was going to cost to assuage the IMSB paranoia?

So, just to cloud the waters a bit more... The LN Engineering stable includes, in addition to the "single row pro" (which is actually a double row bearing packaged in the space of the original single row bearing), the IMS Retrofit bearing (which is the original single row IMSB replacement made by LNE), the LN roller bearing (self explanatory) and "The Solution" (which is a "plain bearing" like was used in Porsche engines with Intermediate Shafts prior to the M96 - the "last word" in IMS bearings - there is also a version made to replace the original oem double row bearing in case that's what you find after removing yours). **There is also a roller bearing made by EPS that they call "the eternal fix"... whether this is merely hyperbole is up for debate, but it seems there's not enough of them out there to form an accurate picture. Phwew!

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We just turned one down last week that failed pre- qualification. As for the LN bearings failing, well of the very few that have occurred, all but two were due to an engine being retrofitted that wasn't qualified, due to an original bearing, or some other part being in- process of a failure. Shops have even dumped oil, used oil back into an engine following an IMS Retrofit, and with crazy things like this, and technicians that are doing fast, haphazard retrofits, some failures have occurred. Like I said, on two occasions the bearing did fail for no reason, and LN stepped up on both of those cases, without excuse. Keep in mind that over 30,000 IMS Retrofit products have been sold by LN, between the 4 different product offerings. Of those I have only had direct control over 600 of the installs, as those were completed under this roof, and of those, ZERO have failed. Why? Well, we are very particular about pre- qualification, we will only retrofit healthy engines, and we won't take any chances by putting the products in the line of fire created by other failures. Most shops that see a problem occurring just ignore it, because they don't want to lose the money from the job. Last year we lost over 100K in sales due to turning down IMS Retofits. That hurts the bottom line, but keeps our reputation, and character clean, along with saving the customer heartache, and wasted money. Thats all that matters.

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There's really no arguing with that position...

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You don't have to answer this, but can you tell me what the pre-requisites are for a go and no go? I've read through your site, but it omits this piece of info.

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I think you can find most of the pre-qual requirements in the pdf file for installation. Check here: http://theimssolution.com/documentation-and-downloads/

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Thanks for the link. Seems basic enough.

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I did enough research to know I was in for an IMS service but am still listening and learning here about the various options. But nothing can really prepare you for picking up a car that might, probably not but might, be in the process of failing leaving me holding the bag. I know there was no metal in the filter, but a PPI can't tell the whole story. It's at the shop now. Sounds and drives beautifully, sure it's fine, but looking forward to them getting the crank case open and giving me the definitive word.

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I had the EPS roller bearing installed in my 2000 Cab 4k miles ago. Just got back an oil analysis and it was outstanding. No regrets at this point, but it's still early for me. Vertex in Miami sells rebuilt P-car engines and use this bearing in all of their rebuilds, and they have for well over two years now. I google searched and hit every forum I could to find negatives about Vertex engines and the EPS roller and about the only disparaging comments I could find was that EPS really should have their marketing materials proof-read and edited by a pro, and they should provide load specs and other engineering details in their marketing info. I did not find any evidence of a single failure of their bearing. And I feel pretty confident we would have heard something here on RL, Renntech, or the Pelican forums if those bearings were lacking in any way. There are others on here who have the EPS roller bearing, but most of them seem to be sporadic rather than daily visitors. Look here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...s-bearing.html If you do go the full kahuna with an engine out service, have your mechanic check the chain tensioner pads and if not already on your list... swap the water pump and thermostat too.

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The info posted at the link is the minimum thats done for a pre- evaluation. This is not a list of what we do here, which is almost twice that amount of work, things that no other shop would even do, or have the tools for. The link is a basic overview, and will help pick out most of the issues that an engine would have. Concerning the "other bearings", well none of those companies have been able to receive distribution agreements with major suppliers of parts, so their numbers have been kept to minimum, which reduces the chances of a failure occurring, simply due to a lack of application. Less units sold means less chance of failure; more units sold= more chances of failure. That said, there's never been a single failure of an IMS Solution- not one, not ever.