Trackcar - 996 Turbo or C2?

I currently run a 3.4 C2 for track work, I drive it to the circuit and as such it still has an interior and is road legal so not completely stripped out, weight is 1297Kg's. It's getting to the point where 297bhp is becoming limiting and given the cars age is approaching the point where an engine rebuild could be considered. The dilemma, do I keep the C2 and spend Circa $20k on a 3.7 rebuild giving circa 350bhp. Or do I sell and add $20k and purchase a turbo? When considering a turbo I see the pro's as 420 bhp out of the box, easily tuned to more. Mezger Engine reliability And the cons as, Turbo charged not NASP Bigger, heavier car. I do not see 4wd as being an issue as I would convert to 2wd. Does anyone has experience of driving both on track? How does a turbo perform? How linear is the power delivery? Can it be manipulated in corner with the throttle? Does it feel big and/or heavy? How different dynamically from a C2? All help appreciated, however.., Please do not respond with anything related to a GT3, in my market these cost four times what a C2 does and twice what a turbo does and as such cannot be justified.

I've driven all 3.... A turbo, a 3.4 996 and now a 3.8 996. I simply didn't like the turbo on the track. Straights were fun - but the car was so heavy it felt like it lumbered around corners. This was a mildly tuned turbo with some suspension work but otherwise a street car. The 3.8 996 is a beast... no other way to describe it. Slakker has a turbo race car now that he's got some experience in - he's done the 3.4 996 and the 3.8 996 as well. I've only driven the turbos as my students cars - so I'd drive them different if I owned them - but my impression stands.

Thanks for the input. Do you feel the weight could be managed by stripping and running motorsport suspension? - Losing the front diff sheds a heap. Weight aside how how did you find the power delivery of the turbo? Linear? Any lag? I like the way my C2 drives and having invested in the chassisI if I could only get 400 bhp from it I would be perfect!!

I found the power delivery difficult to modulate in corners - so definitely laggy. That may be a product of the tune that was in the car though - it was dyno'd at something like 620.... Slakker has his Turbo race car converted to 2wd - he bought it from someone here on the forum too - so they may be able to assist (assuming they see this). 380 ish isn't that far away... for what you would spend on buying the turbo and then the suspension for it - and all of the conversion etc - you may be better off just finding a new motor for the C2.

The 991.2 Turbo guys say that tracking those turbos are way different and perform very nicely. Prime reasons include: - You can setup the suspension in a myriad or ways to make it handle much better on the track - The Turbo lag is probably not nearly as bad on the new cars - The Power is immense So I would post in the Turbo forums and make sure you have a look at the suspension adjustment options. I would seriously consider a Turbo before dismissing it.

Seriously an LS3 swap would great for a track car like this. You would lose 50 lb in weight. You can build an engine that will make 450-550 whp N/A with whatever power band you want. Definitely doable in the $10-20k range. If this is a dedicated track car, you could pull out a lot of the Porsche wiring and use a digital dash and run almost everything off the GM ECU. I swapped my 996.2 C2 and all the hardest issues to fix have to do with wanting the gauge cluster to work like stock. It's a really easy swap mechanically.

I have a 3.8 997S engine just over 400HP in my 996 and love the car...I am not a fan of turbos ever since one got away from me when I was caught off guard with the turbo lag. This is much better in new cars though.

Turbos are generally not well regarded for track use. I think the newer "non-turbo" Porsche's that have the small light pressure turbos would be an exception. I was behind one for awhile on my last track weekend during one session, the squatting out of corners was remarkable as he went on and off boost, clearly made it hard to drive smoothly.

Turbo will be just OK, even if you stay in the right RPM range. You do need to get rid of the AWD and run RWD (as you indicated) for the track - lots of people have done this successfully. Two downsides to 996 Turbo are the gearing and rev limit. Shifting so often gets old. Personally, I wouldn't run force induction on a track car. I'd keep the 996 and convert to full track. Take some of that 20K and get a beater street car. Engine concerns are always there on a track car. 996 is gonna blow eventually. Get the IMS fix, a deep sump, under drive pulley, oil/tranny fluid cooler and then you're about 90% there on engine preventative measures. When it blows, put in something else. -td

GT3. Made for the track. Holds its value.

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That is the best answer of all of us.

OP knows that. He clearly said gt3 is not in the budget. Even if it was, read Vonderbuilds thread on all the work he put into his nice and clean gt3. For about $4k you can get hybrid k16s and tune from UMW by Kevin and take out a lot of the lag, get them to spool up and come on boost in much lower rpm's and get more hp/torq. I would still not run a turbo on the track.

turbo. Strip it, delete FWD, rebuild those K16 turbos with modern compressor/turbine blade geometry (do not try to chase mega hp) and get a proper ECU tune. Suspensionwise parts required equal C2/GT3. Stripped RWD turbo with gage will weigh under 1350kg (less with GF/CF doors), you can run wider wheels than NB cars and thus have more traction. Mezger engine is a big bonus, rising rev limit to 7.2k will help with gearing, but with the torque available you really do not shift that much. Plus gears can be changed wirh GT3/Cup parts. LSD is a must. So turbo, but I'm biased.

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You can throw money at any car. The problem is, once you buy a Turbo, or whatever, you end up sinking so much into the mods to get it where you want that your total investment goes through the roof. What is worse is that you can't recoup that investment because no one will pay you anything close to what you put into it when you try to sell it. At least the GT3 is going to be pretty much ready for the track out of the box in a normally aspirated package. And there are things you can't easily replicate with the GT3 like the welded chassis seams for stiffness. If the entry price is steep, it's because you get what you pay for. I bought mine used in 2006 with 5,500 miles on it. Yes, it was not cheap then, but I have 136,000 miles on it now and it is still worth a very handsome percentage of what I paid for it. I have no regrets and its the only car I have ever owned (out of a long list) that I have kept so long and still no desire to sell.

They both can be setup to run very nicely on the track. C2 is fun because if you set it up as a race car and really learn to drive it, there aren't many street cars that can beat you around a track. Google Rennpoint Track Records and see what the SP996 track record is for your favorite PCA race track. I think you will be surprised what you can do with 265rwhp. Especially if it's a track that Glenn has raced at. He's an ex dirt track racer that is wicked fast. My '01TT was initially a drag car and then was converted to track. It's running about 550rwhp and is an absolute beast. I have a mild boost tune on it thanks to Markski that mimimizes turbo lag. I've found that managing the power with my foot is way more fun than I anticipated. I'm still in the process of adding gas earlier and earlier in the turns but it screams. I'm still getting to know the car but it turns almost identically to my C2. I'm currently about 2s off of the 997 Cup record at my local track and I'm pretty sure i can get under it with seat time. The TT has been converted to Cup car wheel carriers, RWD and weighs in at about 3000lbs dry. It could lose another 150lbs without much effort. My GTB1 C2 weighed in at 2520lbs dry. As far as preference, I like them both for different things but the power on the TT is extremely addictive, especially when you are out pulling '17 Z06's on the straights. I'll put both the C2 I'm building and the TT up for sale in a month or two and keep whichever doesn't sell first.

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(Feel free to skip this, since there is a lot of opinion that doesn�t directly answer your question.) No doubt, GT3 is the best move, if money isn�t a concern. It is made for the job. There are lots of sayings about the cost of speed. You�ve got to pay to play, and the cost of each incremental gain at the high end is much steeper. You�re much closer to track prepped starting with a GT3, but you�ll still need to throw money at it to get it �fully prepped�. I can�t comment on turbos on the track, but you could build a heckuva� C2 with a Raby engine, an open trailer and a used tow rig for about the same money as a single manual 996TT prepped for the track. In my very limited racing experience, the fastest cars are driven by the best drivers. Money would be best spent on track time and quality instruction before buying another car. Also, compromise cars (drive it to the track, drive it home), are less likely to be tuned to the razors edge of high performance. A real racecar is nearly unbearable on the street. Sound deadening, cabin cooling, audio, carpets, trim, dash, street crash safety measures (like safety glass, airbags and side impact bars), etc. get sacrificed to reduce weight. Suspensions are so taught that they rattle your fillings. Etc. I tried to do that when I was in my 20�s and it sucked. One last comment about driving the car to and from the track is that if you have to worry about driving it home, you are unlikely to be willing to drive at 10/10ths. Stuff happens at speed and to go the fastest, (in my opinion) you have to drive close to the edge. You can�t do that if you�re worried about driving it home or to work the next day. My dream car is a GT3 RS. It�ll probably never happen due to the buy-in cost. But I can always dream.

It all depends on what's important to the buyer. Money wise, a GT3 costs more than a Raby Track Car which costs more than a TT track car. And the TT is by far the quickest around the track. The Raby build was more hassle than it was worth for me. The only way I'd do another one of those is if I found a used one like Blue Chip did so that someone else pays the "premium" on it. Personally, if I just want to throw a car around the track, a properly setup C2 with stock engine will always be my favorite. If I want to show up and "win" the DE, the TT is my favorite weapon so far.

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2.27 at COTA! That is very fast. Only 5 seconds slower than a Corvette ZR1! (2:22) But to be fair to the Corvette, the Corvette driver was probably not as good as the Porsche driver (but we did have 2x the horse power )

Running a 2:21 at Sebring is impressive as hell.

All, thanks for the input. Marv, I am fully aware of the merits of a GT3, as stated at the top of the thread I am not interested in hearing from a GT3 owner talking up their car. - I could build a 3.7 C2 with similar power and cup suspension for half the cost. Lowpue - Can you share the details on your 3.8 build?

I ran my 3.8 conversion on the track for the first time this weekend.... albeit rainy as hell out... we did manage to turn a few laps. Immediately - the first thing that I noticed was the low end torque. Whereas many of the turns were between 2nd and 3rd gear - my friend in his 997 base was even complaining that leaving it in 3rd was tough to get any power out of the corner. I had no such problem. My vote - join the dark side and go with a 3.8 like us.

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Slak, Can you elaborate on the "hassle" part? PM if you prefer...

I have heard of companies like BBi tuning turbos for more linear power delivery. I wonder if that would make the 996 a more viable track car? Out of the box suggestion: have you considered re-gearing to squeeze more out of the existing engine? https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...for-996-a.html

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Turbos are a bad idea on the M96. They just aren't built to handle them. I had forgotten about the gearbox mods. They aren't legal for a lot of the PCA classes but Johnecatt did really well with his '99 he had before moving on to Cayman. Extra power is always nice to have and you can never have enough. That being said, these cars are extremely well balanced just as they are(especially the '99). The magic comes from upgrading the suspension/tires/safety and driver skill.

I was actually referring to tuning the 996 turbo when I said tuning for more linear power dlivery. Agreed the m96 is not great for turbocharging. That said you reminded me that VF engineering sells a supercharger kit for the 996 http://www.vfengineering.com/carrera-996/ I've heard the founder on a number of podcasts and they seem to take special consideration for reliability.

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Re-gearing with what and from who?