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YOUR RESEARCHNitrous Oxide
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Install nitrous system
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Tippy, I think we're basing this conversation on the assumption of a properly designed and installed nitrous system.
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Had one friend with a 275 shot on a 468 BB '69 Camaro and ran 10-teens.
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Another friend had a 300 shot on a 383 SB in a '66 roadster 'vette and he ran a best 10.01.
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I've been waiting for a cheap used wet system to show up so I can slap it on my Corvette - but that motor is a tank that can happily grind out 500HP with NA mods.
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Suggestion
They check the interior for imperfections and smooth them out with a dremel and change the washers and bolts and end up with a replica Quaife Torque Bias differential that has worked great on many cars.
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Suggestion
There are two reasons people quit the bottle: they get tired of paying to fill bottles and move to a mechanical forced-induction solution, or they blow up an intake manifold or lean out their engine and it suddenly stops being an engine and reverts back to being randomly-sized pieces of metal.
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Suggestion
They check the interior for imperfections and smooth them out with a dremel and change the washers and bolts and end up with a replica Quaife Torque Bias differential that has worked great on many cars.
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Suggestion
It's totally clear few know anything about nitrous, I hear "add a supercharger or a turbo" first of all, a supercharger takes horsepower to make more power and adds a lot of heat put a hell of a lot of stress on a motor , a turbo adds heat takes a lot of tuning and on regularly aspirated engine running 11 1/2 to 1 compression that's not such a good idea , nitrous is not the big bad wolf most think it is, I have had wet and dry systems on numerous cars including a mini Cooper yes start small work your way up, most were v8s but that mini we started with 45hp on the mini made a sizable difference in power we put at least 10 bottles before we started moving up then we just wanted to see how far
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They check the interior for imperfections and smooth them out with a dremel and change the washers and bolts and end up with a replica Quaife Torque Bias differential that has worked great on many cars.
I ran NOS on my 'vette but would never do it to my Porsches, the chance of something going wrong is too risky for me.
Not that they cant take it, just cant imagine melting a hole through a piston or popping a head gasket. Too much work to fix.
If you had to, I would not go over a 75 hp shot. I did a lot of diagosing of a lean out problem in my 'vette with a 75 hp shot and never popped the motor, must be mild enough.
There is no more danger running a properly installed Nitrous System than there is running a properly installed Turbo or SC. All 3 have the potential of destroying the engine in a matter of seconds and all 3 have the potential of providing your engine with substantial horsepower very safely.
I remember when I became the 1st 99 C2 with a supercharger. People said the engine couldn't take it and I was a fool for installing it. That was some 4 - 5 years and more than 50,000 miles ago. Now, everyone wants their 996 supercharged. In many cases, when people don't understand something, they tend to badmouth it rather then simply saying they have no little to no knowledge about the subject.
I agree 100% with 1999 on this one. Properly done there's no problem. High compression engines and FI of any type is an area where one wants to be conservative. That said, it's just as dangerous as the other types of FI.
The cost of a Nitrous system + one blown engine is about the same as the cost of Supercharger.
VF Engineering will give you a GREAT deal on a supercharger. You can drive it like you stole it every single day and it'll still last forever. Are you SURE you'd rather have a Nitrous system?
its just the prospect of loading 9k on a SC and 1-2k on install is a killing......my ? would be if a 3.4 can handle the SC which will provide higher compression etc....then with a nitrous system if managed properly and carefully can provide similar results? and might cost only 1-2 k....again i think the key is to have proper management with low "shots" and adding an intake plus headers......again just my theory,but i will be inquiring with some professional shops in this matter in the following weeks....i really hope this can work.
Why not a bit of PURE OXYGEN to displace 5% of our atmosphere's nitrogen, from a liquid oxygen tank at LOW pressure into the intake downstream of the MAF/IAT....??
5/30 improvement in HP/torque, 350HP rather than 300.
here you go a 1999 996 with a SC AND A NITROUS SYSTEM.....very interesting...and a BOXTER WITH A 3.4 996 ENGINE NOS
http://www.europeancarweb.com/tuned/...ody/index.html
.......
http://www.angelfire.com/va3/ric3boi/box.html
I used to have a 1 bottle per week Nitrous Habit when I drag raced in HS and my college years. Never once had an engine failure in a vehicle that was raced almost weekly for 3 years.
A well designed system with all of the necessary safety features in place is a great alternative to SC systems for reliable HP increases with very little investment
I think the reason you don't see systems like that for Porsche's is becuase it's mainly aimed at the drag racing crowd and our cars are not ideal for that sort of racing. Most of us are using these cars at tracks with turns where the nitrous is of little use if any.
I'm sure anybody who knows their way around a modern nitrous system should be able to put together something for you. The biggest issue is going to be without being able to pull timing from the car you're going to be limited on how much HP you're going to safely be able to add to the car.
Ok, this is my view of it. The motor more than likely will handle it but it was probably not designed for it.
I have never seen the ring lands of the M96 to judge if Porsche uses thin ring lands on the pistons and rings for longer rod ratios.
If they do, this weakens the strength of the piston and makes it more risky to have a meltdown (if fuel pressure ever falls off).
On a side note, my '87 911 has very thin rings, I wouldn't think of ever spraying it even though its turboed (but many guys have had broken rings N/A, not a good sign of strength).
If you have a good fuel safety pressure switch and never tamper with the NOS jets, it should be fairly safe IMO.
But, me personally, wouldn't do it due to the complexity and time it takes to rebuild these motors.
My experience with a 75hp shot on my old 'vette was that the diagnosing stage never popped the motor even with lots of shuddering due to leaning out.
Going to 125 or 175 made the engine more violent and after I was done using it for a session, the timing was so retarded that the car lost low-end torque for a few days.
That tells me it was pulling lots of timing to prevent detonation.
Of course we are talking about V8's here, not 6's.
I have a video of my friend who drilled out a 200 hp jet (without matching fuel)and the violent explosion blowing intake parts all over the track.
It kinda humbles you and makes you realize this stuff is serious when it blows the head gaskets out from underneath the heads and bends all the connecting rods just by stomping the throttle from off idle.
Oxygen being the gas that it is might require higher than 93 octane to prevent detonation?
I believe it quickly combusts, the reason it is added to Nitrogen to slow the burn as in NOS.
Small block Chevy in an S-10 pickup.
Plate system with progressive controller and all the bells and whistles. I also had an MSD ignition on the thing with manual timing control so I could pull timing from the ignition with a filp of a switch fron the interior of the car. At the end I was running 200hp shot on my motor on the top end of the track. It was a lowered S-10 on a 10" tire that was running deep in the 11's over 12 years ago and it was also my daily driver. Pretty quick street car for the time.
Nice!
Was it like 75-150-200 setup? Had one friend with a 275 shot on a 468 BB '69 Camaro and ran 10-teens. It was 11.2 motor alone.
Another friend had a 300 shot on a 383 SB in a '66 roadster 'vette and he ran a best 10.01. He could never crack the 9's.
These were both street cars and DD's. Neither used progressive, all right off the line.
Crazy their motors held over the years, pretty sick what power you can get for little money.
Oh sorry, didn't mean to hijack
I am of the belief that the richer the mixture is the less subject to detonation. Enrich the C-210 mixture just a bit cooler than peak EGT to prevent detonation.
As I see it the ECU EFI controlled mixture ratio would not change, just putting more combustable charge inside each cylinder by displacing some of the ~70% of nitrogen in our atmosphere.
Isn't it true that in theory 100% oxygen into the intake would allow the engine cylinder displacement to be reduced by a factor of 3 or 4... and still produce equal HP...???
Yeah, so an iron block that's magnitudes heavier and cheaper than a Porsche.
Sorry, but this thread is interesting and relevant only if the OP is planning to race Chevy's in the 1/4 mile on PINKS.
I'm failing to see your point. I've never known block strength to be an issue on the M96 cars. If you argued that our engines tend to have weak cylinder linings on the early cars then maybe...but that still has nothing to do with the integrity or strength of the block itself. Nitrous will ad no different forces than a supercharger will and there are lots of high HP supercharged M96 cars floating around without issues.
I'm not gonna argue that it's pointless on a 996, but if someone wanted to put together a kit correctly it could be done with very few negative side effects. There's actually a company out there making Nitrous kits for E46 M3's now. They've taken all of the guess work out of it and put together a really nice kit. You won't see me installing it on my car anytime soon but for someone who wants a cheap blast of power every now and then it's not a bad solution I suppose.
Andy
There is some things to consider.
Nitrous is instant!
Supercharging and using turbos is gentler on the engine becuase they make their 125 hp increase (for the sake of debate) usually at the peak of the RPM whereas nitrous could make 125 hp in ANY RPM range!
So, if you do not have any safeguards in place for RPM limiting the nitrous activation, you could spray a 125 shot at 1000 RPM!
I am fairly sure for the sake of debate that spraying a 125 hp shot of nitrous into a M96 at off idle will destroy something.
Another thing. If you accidently hit the nitrous at say 1000 RPM, that would mean the cylinders are roughly injesting 7 times more nitrous than they would receive at 7000 RPM because nitrous flow is constant at a given rate dependent on temperature of bottle and pressure.
That would probably destroy something.
Tippy, I think we're basing this conversation on the assumption of a properly designed and installed nitrous system. Your examples are cases of neither. A progressive control injects nitrous at varying levels depending on the condition (rpm, load, etc). RPM switches were installed to prevent people from "accidently" spraying too early.
In a similar fashion, if you ran a turbo without adequate boost control you'd destroy an engine just as quickly...
Considering I never saw a kit for a Porsche (of course I never have searched), I was ASSUMING the kit would be pieced together without the safeguards in place, just like I stated.
It was just a warning what could happen.
It's totally clear few know anything about nitrous, I hear "add a supercharger or a turbo" first of all, a supercharger takes horsepower to make more power and adds a lot of heat put a hell of a lot of stress on a motor , a turbo adds heat takes a lot of tuning and on regularly aspirated engine running 11 1/2 to 1 compression that's not such a good idea , nitrous is not the big bad wolf most think it is, I have had wet and dry systems on numerous cars including a mini Cooper yes start small work your way up, most were v8s but that mini we started with 45hp on the mini made a sizable difference in power we put at least 10 bottles before we started moving up then we just wanted to see how far we could take it we had that thing all the way to 75 hp a little itty-bitty mini Cooper (non S) we could not blow that thing up in it moved I mean that little car will get up and go I ordered a Dynotune nitrous kit for my 996 and I know for a fact it will not blow the engine up as everybody says it will keep things within reason you'll be fine I'm going with the wet system then probably going to run at 75hp
Thank you for your feedback on a nitrous system as Im sure the m96 and mini cooper engines have a lot in common and your mini cooper should be a great basis for knowing for a fact that you wont blow the engine on the 996 because Im sure you have a lot of experience with nitrous and the m96 engine and can report back here how it does with the extra 75 hp you get from the kit and whether it is 75hp at the crank or 75 rear wheel horse power and I would love to see a dyno if you get it and also know which m96 you are running it on and maybe keep us updated on how its all going and if you are able to race and beat some really fast cars with your really fast car really fast.
Ok you get to be the bully that's cool, no my 996 is not a rocket ship , but a little boost in power for under a grand is not a bad thing to me I have done the things to make sure it holds together LN update, and no a mini is no where the same as a M96 I was just using that as a example, the mini has a cheap cast piston non forged part in the whole motor ,Porsche uses good engine parts (forged)other than the IMS issues that flat 6 is a stout motor will take it, I might just want that 75hp hit on track day on that long straight or little hit just to put a smile on my face if that's ok with you, by the way know it all, nitrous builds much more torque than hp and nitrous likes compression, so go spend 10k plus on a turbo or supercharger and I bet it will blow up a lot faster than nitrous each is there own, unless you have a TT and owe more than a house on it...mine is paid for 100%
Lol, I've already blown an '01 E55 engine adding a supercharger, I don't really care to go through that experience again. I agree extra torque is always nice, and yes I was being smart ***, but depending on which model year you have these engines aren't exactly stout. I'm not saying they are a ticking time bomb but Porsche was definitely trying to save money in this era and these engines have some real weaknesses besides the IMS (cylinder #1). I would make sure you research them pretty thoroughly before you push them harder than they were designed to go. Or, report back to us in 20,000 miles and let us know how it turned out. Either way, best of luck to you.
That's my point I hear others on all the Porsche sites that say get a supercharger or a turbo it's not as hard on a motor as nitrous and that is false, a small shot of nitrous (as long as the fuel is there lol) is much safer than any form of boost on a high 11.1 C/R motor all day long, one more misinformation is a dry system is safer no no no! You're relying on your injectors to add more fuel and they are already close to 100% duty cycle, a wet system right off the inj fuel rail test fitting is the best and safest way to go, I just want to clear up a lot of BS I see on here,
Pretty cool to resurrect an 8 year old thread to start off with insults and then lecture on forced induction vs NOS. Im sure the OP has been checking back all these years waiting for your input
Lol I always seem to be 8 years behind lol no I just was reading what others have said and noted a lot of false info and figured I had something to bring to the discussion, why not? We all think about more power it's all in fun no matter how old it is it's still relevant
LOL, thats cool, no worries. It just struck me as a strong response to such an old thread, made me chuckle.
I agree there is a lot of misinformation in the world about nitrous; it certainly has its time and place. I do think its somewhat telling that it hasnt been brought back up (that Im aware of) since this thread. Not sure if thats because it hasnt really been done on a 996 or if its because anyone who has done it hasnt/wouldnt/wont post here?
Oh, and since you are a new joiner, welcome! Lots of good info here, and (mostly) helpful people
Awe damn, as soon as I heard a redneck hillbilly, I saw the train wreck coming.
But seriously most get the 996 NA for circuit style racing. I've had a couple nitrous setups in the past and it really required some setup that would be ideal for drag strip IMO.
Sure they have remote valve openers, purge systems, and bottle warmers to get the pressure up but all of these require some user input and isn't instantaneous.
I think most that are into drag racing get the 996tt where it's easy to make over 700hp all day long. The really serious ones are all in the 1k club these days.
You can see that all it takes is one to blow up one motor only before being in the 996tt territory which has a lot more beefy engine. Then it easily becomes hindsight, would've should've scenario and reflection.
More power to you if you can inject a 100-125 shot consistently on the m96 without suffering any damages. Please keep us updated on your escapades as we can all learn something whether good or bad. I certainly didn't want to gamble and take one for the team considering replacement costs. It sounds like though you got bigger ***** than most here. Good luck.
Quite so.
And to that point, it may be a helpful reminder that one can, at no extra cost, use the period (.) symbol to end a sentence.
This allows thoughts to be more cogently conveyed. Sentences can be broken up into logical blocks called paragraphs. This enhances the communication medium, and helps readers to understand the thoughts presented.
Sorry as I are confused abowt what you are saying as I clearly used paragraphs to brake up my coments and even thought i forgotted to add a periud since i was on a mobul device im sorry i offendud you and next time i will be shure to send any post imma gonna make to you for proof redding first maybe then yous can halp me sea the errors of my weighs so pleeze halp me oh mity edumcated one as i are clrly infeerieer two you sence i forgotted a punkchuashion mark thanks so much for the tip...but just the tip.
I agree also, This kind of mentality is what limits people. Do research, do things the right way and most of the time you will be suprised how well things can go.
I was critizised for purchasing an OBX LSD for my 99 but theres guys in the Honda/Acura community with over 500 HP on the same LSD. They check the interior for imperfections and smooth them out with a dremel and change the washers and bolts and end up with a replica Quaife Torque Bias differential that has worked great on many cars.
Doing things right is the key.
My point is, look at 1999porsche911, he installed a supercharger on his C2 and guess what? It lasted! Now let's look at this a bit closer, One, at 6000 RPM that supercharger is using about 60 to 80hp to spin the supercharger off the end of a crankshaft that was never designed to do so. Yes I have seen a blower rip the stout off a crank. Two without a inter cooler that Manifold air temperature is way way up there. Three, static compression on that engine of. 11 to 1 with 7 pounds of boost equates to about 14 to 1 compression. It held together, nitrous oxide is injected into the engine at about 100� below zero. Adds no more static compression. Adds zero stress to the crank stout. Nitrous is looking good at this point to me. So call me what ever you want, say what you want but can you build one of there motors? I have......many of them from a 2.0's to a 3.6's I can assure you the 911 motor so much stronger than people give them credit for.
So the working theory is that nitrous, because the charge is cooler than a non-intercooled supercharger (which is patently stupid anyway) is GOOD for the car.
Yup. Sound logic.
The primary reason people use the bottle is to add cheap HP. Clearly folks here have concerns about the M96's reliability; it is NOT a cheap motor to repair. Using a cheap power-adder to stress a motor you probably can't afford to replace is - in my unsolicited opinion that I can't believe I'm tacking on to an 8-year-old thread - stupid.
I've been waiting for a cheap used wet system to show up so I can slap it on my Corvette - but that motor is a tank that can happily grind out 500HP with NA mods. A crate longblock from a decent source is a whopping $2,500...so guess which motor I'm more likely to juice? *hint* Not the M96.
You missed the point, yes the colder charge going into the intake is more dense and does make more power, The molecules of nitrous oxide break into oxygen molecules, however that wasn't the point. nitrous does build more cylinder temperature, my point was these engines can take it that was all I was trying to say! you are an idiot...that is clear. I have built Porsche motors for a well known shop for years, For me it does not cost but the parts and my time, we just charge people $$$$$ because we have the skill to do the job unlike you sir.
Yup. I am clearly the idiot here.
Now run along and freak out on a few more 8-year-old threads.
For your sake, I hope you fix s**t better than you internet. Because you SUCK at internet.
I'm glad they bumped this thread, it was a fun read and it's nice to know there are some around running it on these cars.
It is funny though that at the mere thought of adding nitrus people start to jump to the conclusion that it will ruin the engine and all will be lost. That's not really the case if/when done well, and a car can be perfectly happy.
I heard once that this whole discussion would be totally different if we didn't enter the jet age as there was all kinds of stuff being experimented with on high altitude piston engines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine
) was a fun talk with a old aircraft mechanic. If only things like that were a bit more explored and used then we would be seeing more of this as normal and not limited to the drag or hot rod crowd.
IMO
Yea I want some of the trolls on here trashing my shop, lol no thank you, I don't own the shop, so I'm not at liberty to start giving out names of where I work and the people that work with. giving you my full name? yeah that's not a good idea on the Internet. The only reason I even posted was because there is so much miss information on this thread that I just had to set a few people straight, because I do know these motors inside and out. People are crying wolf, saying that these engines fall apart, go BOOM if you look at them cross eyed lol, it's just not true.Porsche has had issues, so is every manufacture on the face of the earth that builds automobiles.
I will post a few photos of a 3.6 I'm building for a customer it's going to be a TT will produce well over 600hp, and post the Results after it goes to the Dyno
Porscheismoving,
Do you own a 996 NA? I was under the assumption that you would be trying NOS with a 996 NA model. If this is not the case, then this whole thread hasn't really changed alot meaning it still continues to be all talk, which happens often on RL.
Yes my 996 is normally aspirated however, I have a few other Porsche projects in the works including a twin turbocharged 914 with a 3.8 that Ohta be a lot of funI finished the nitrous install last night on the 996, kit is from dynotune. they make a Porsche kit and I got to say it's a very well put together kit and I tested it twice so far best $430 I spent love it it's jetted at 75hp comes on very smooth nothing scary but you certainly feel it it's just like a whole lot deeper power band. You guys don't know what your missing it's fun!
If I blow up the motor as everyone thinks ....it won't, but if it does I will build a monster 4.0 put two stages of nitrous just to **** everyone off lol
i went through bottles of go gas in corvettes ,there was support,products and options. after 1 year of my 09 new po 2.9 i tried to put it in but at the time 2010 there was nothing [WOT switch/window rpm switch,fuel psi switch normal spark plugs] .i could find no one [even JR] that could "break in" to the ecm. i did a home made test of it [no safeties] @50 shot . only tried it twice ,got a cel which cleared later.unless the aftermarket stepped up with products i would not try it again.
but the old adage ...if ya aint sprayin yas best beeezzz prayin. i am too old for the street racing days....heck that is why i went to po....it was time to slow down
There are two reasons people quit the bottle: they get tired of paying to fill bottles and move to a mechanical forced-induction solution, or they blow up an intake manifold or lean out their engine and it suddenly stops being an engine and reverts back to being randomly-sized pieces of metal.
I'm looking forward to seeing which group our esteemed colleague and master Porsche mechanic will fall into.
*edit* I lied - there is a third group. They're the ones who get bored of stock + a 75 shot, so after two years of dragging their poor car up and down the road, they put it back to stock and sell it using terms like "gently used" and "low mileage." The new owner will wonder why it uses a quart of oil every two weeks.
yeah....it is much wiser to spend hundreds of dollars for an exhaust system that makes the car sound like a ricer.....ironic that it takes away some low end . tinkerbell logic
The way nitrous works (or more correctly, the way you take advantage of nitrous) implies that people using it are driving their cars harder than many typical Porsche owners. A properly set up system with TPS and window switching will only fog at full throttle when the RPMs are within the acceptable range - typically the higher end of the power band where engines make the most HP.
Any machine that is used at or near capacity wears out faster than a machine that is used at 50% load. While there are plenty of people who will argue, this is one of the reasons that race motors have life spans counted in hours, not years.
Someone who wants the bottle - or a turbo or a supercharger, for that matter - is not satisfied with how the car performs at peak output, so they add a forced-induction solution to make the car produce MORE power. While it's true that there is parasitic draw on a motor for superchargers, it's also true that if you keep your foot out of it, your supercharged car isn't going to abruptly die. If you're running *****-out between every stop light and every chance you get, there's a good chance you're going to tear something up.
Nitrous isn't any different. There are some guys at the Corvette shop I go to that have sweet thousand-dollar Nitrous Express setups on their 'Vettes - which they've used maybe 5 times in the past several years. Unless they do something stupid, these probably aren't going to be the cars that pop. The kids who are running the bottle all night long at Race Legal and squeezing an extra 100HP out of a 150HP engine, on the other hand, are going to break something eventually.
As for bullet-proof Porsche motors - if you build a thousand-horsepower motor on a stock block - and run it often at a thousand horsepower - you will break something. If you build a thousand horsepower Porsche and drive it at 55MPH to Cars and Coffee once a month, you won't. Some people who beat on their cars have great luck and don't have a lot of failures - but EVERYONE I have known over the years who has strapped forced-induction on their cars and actually used it has eventually broken something.
I supercharged the car I had before I bought my 986. Stock, it made 172HP at the crank; I tuned it to make about 300 at the wheels. It was also tuned to run rich, I built an intercooler to keep the charge as cool as possible, and iced the box down the few times I did drag pulls. I drove it supercharged for a couple of years...the kid I sold it to strapped on a huge throttle body, changed out the SC pulley, didn't bother to tune it, and put a hole in the block a few months after he got it. *shrug*
Running in fear from the bottle is stupid - I'll go along with this assertion. However, claiming that a blown motor - regardless of whether the forced induction comes from a turbo, a supercharger, or a bottle of nitrous oxide - will be as reliable as it would have been stock is simply not true.
Sweet. Do you plan on moving up to more aggressive jets? Is the one you have a dry or wet system? Any links to the actual kit? I've never seen a Porsche specific kit before.
Please keep us updated.
Thanks, they are custom powdercoated BBS RS-GT 18" wheels. I have a set of 19" Champion RG-5's too I might switch out sometime in the summer once I get some new rubber for it.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
