2004 996 was told engine needed rebuild-Help

Hello, So this is my first Porsche I owned. Always wanted one and purchased a 04 996 with 70,000 miles within the last year. after 3 months owing, I replaced the valve lifters about 3000 miles ago. (4000.00 job). The car recently began to blow white smoke on start up and make a ticking noise when the car is running. I was told by Porsche I need a new engine 35,000 and a private indy that the engine needed to be rebuilt. Both said that there is scoring on cylinder walls. This sucks. Can anyone give me any advice? Is this common? Should I invest in the car? Do I rebuild or just buy another engine. Any advice would help. This really sucks that this is my first experience with Porsche. Thank you

sounds like you didn't need valve lifters in the 1st place it is common for people to mis-diagnose a valve lifter noise which is more often than not a cracked cylinder wall - there are several threads regarding this fairly common mis-diagnosis. i'm sure more mechanically inclined will chime in but i would bet heavy it was cylinder wall all along. there is a fellow RL engine rebuilder (from Poland) in florida who is an RL member with great prices - he does good work and i think the going rate is about $13-$14K with your core.

^^^ what he said. I really wish you would've came on here first as we could've saved you at least $4k on a mis-diagnosis. Roller, refresh/rebuilt, ls conversion, used motor are your options. None of them cheap unfortunately.

Hi, Thanks for the feedback. The valve lifters were replaced because that was the engine codes coming out when car was running bad. This was confirmed by Porsche dealer. Do you think when the lifters were done they would have noticed issues with the cylinders? After the lifters were replaced the car ran great up unitl this last major issue 13k to 14k. What's everyone think about the value of putting that back into a 04 996? what do you think about the future of this model. It goes back up or continues to decline? Thanks

Sad to hear of this trouble. You have a ~$20k car needing a lot of money to repair. If you can find a broken chassis in a junk/breaker yard of the same approx age, you can replace with a used engine. Sadly, used engines are becoming scarce. There are several other engine builders on this forum and they will chime in eventually. Note that they will discuss prices in terms of a usable 'core' to return, and chances are good that you don't have a usable core so price will be higher. Expect to pay around $20k or so for final repair price. The other options are a hybrid swap with a Chevy V8, or you can sell your car as a roller chassis and try again. BTW, the turbo model doesn't have the same problems as the M96 engine, however, it has other maint requirements of its own.

need more info on your car - C4S or narrow body?? condition, colors, miles, mods/etc

04 C2 Cab.. 79,000 miles. Black. Nice condition. FYI.. Car still runs but makes a clicking noise. Sometimes there is smoke on start up and sometimes there is not. If you sell for a roller who do you call and what prices are people getting? So sad to ask this question Thanks

Losing a cylinder... Thats 4 reports today..

Really sorry to hear that and it sucks bad it happened only after 3 months of ownership. You can probably sell it "as is" for $9~10k (plenty of market for a roller). If you got the car for $25k, that's $15k loss. If you try to repair it, it will be again $15k or more. Financially it doesn't make sense to repair it and then sell it. So unless you want to keep it for a long time, I would suggest selling it as a roller and start fresh because you're probably not that emotionally tied to it yet with only 3 months of ownership.

The other side of the coin is, if you did fall in love with it, research your options and look to rebuild it. These are amazing cars that are crazy fun to drive. If you get it rebuilt the right way, it will bring you great joy for many years to come. You will be able to spread the rebuild cost out over the years you drive it and should have almost no depreciation of the cars original value.

I agree but it's gonna take a lot of love to erase the sour taste and a lot of $$ to get a decent rebuild enough to gain back the confidence.

You could also do what others have done, and just drive the motor as is until it completely fails and sell it as a roller. You aren't getting a core refund for that motor any ways.

Actually a scored cylinder is fine as a core because the cylinders will need to be resleeved anyway during rebuild. However, things like a broken crank, broken cylinder that affects resleeving, or a hole in the engine block, etc. will reduce the core value significantly.

sell it.....quick

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I think Ahsai is correct on this. If you stop driving it and weigh your options carefully, check with the engine rebuilders, you might actually be able to sell the engine core and get a re-manned engine for a lot less. If the cylinder(s) are not badly scored, and everything else is in good shape, the engine can be resleeved and be usable. Might even be a better engine in the long run because you can do a lot of PM on it as well. If it were me, I would look into this and contrast it with selling as a roller. All and all, it's not the end of the world. www.rndengines.com and www.vertexauto.com

Someone on these boards was posting recently about they do rebuilds for $10k plus your core. A lot of money but better than some of the other quoted prices I've seen. Honestly I feel bad for you. If I was in same position I'd consider a rebuild if $10k was the max but beyond that I'd sell as a roller.

Free advice is worth what you paid for it but I would look seriously at a RND engine .It has the right stuff -specifically new cylinders plus the tolerances would be right .Jake and Charles have made a significant investment in what these engines need to be reliable .

Sorry to hear about your troubles - it really sucks. I had a blown engine last year and went through the same dilemma - sell the car as a roller, rebuild, or find a replacement engine. In the end I decided I loved the car too much to let it go. I found a used upgraded crate engine with low mileage, and bigger diameter IMSB. Got away for under $20K and I couldn't be happier with my decision. If you are attached to your car there are options out there. My advice - take some time and make the right decision for yourself. As others have said, most likely your core is rebuildable and has trade-in value.

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While it may be tempting given the money you will be losing, don't just dump it on CarMax or somewhere else. What will happen if you do is that some other poor schmuck will be in the same place you are. You don't like being here, don't do it to someone else. Another option that hasn't been mentioned is to just keep driving it. There is another member here that has been driving his engine for some time with scored cylinders. The oil consumption will continue to increase and sooner or later the metal shedding from the walls will damage other parts and take out the motor (then you won't have a good core), but if you are considering selling it as a roller anyway at least you can try to get your money's worth out of it in the mean time. If you happen to fall in love with it in the meantime, most of your replacement options will still be available. If you go that route it might be wise to put the LN spin on oil filter on the car as that will not let unfiltered oil (and metal bits) get back into the motor. That might help prolong the inevitable some. Actually the chances are good that he does have a good core. As Ahsai mentioned, it's going to get resleaved anyway so bore scoring is meaningless for a core exchange.

I'm not an expert on the scored cylinder core, but my opinion was based primarily on multiple vendors who will do anything and everything possible to disqualify an engine as core value. Once you've got engaged to an engine shop, and they start stripping down your block, even the tiniest defect of an otherwise good block will push it over into the 'junk' category, which is more a function of the method, than the actual condition of the cases. I'm pretty certain there are many blocks out there that have been declared scrap which are later built up into working engines again. There is also the condition of a sliding core value which may be up to ~$4000, but given the variability in grading usually winds up to be about $600. Profit is after all -- profit.

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This is another viable option and one I would consider. There's been a few on here that's still driving their cars for a few years now, including track days. This gives you a chance to save up and/or hunt for the right motor that may pop up. This could also buy you time in case LS conversion kits become really cheap with practically plug and play availability. If you're able to drive it like this for three years or more, it would be similiar to owning a Honda and taking the same depreciation hit while driving an exotic instead, should you decide to sell it as a roller afterwards. I know it's easy more often than not to have a knee jerk reaction to something like this but if this isn't your primary car, you have time to think things through fortunately. I would just change your oil often, get a magnetic drain plug, and monitor oil levels and sample analysis if you plan to keep driving it.

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I agree, and this is why we only build the customer's core engine, using it as a foundation. When carrying out our processes I have never assessed a core charge for a scored cylinder. Why? Because all the cylinder's parent material above the water jacket is completely machined away, and replaced with the Nickies cylinder. There are few companies that work cores from a fair, and balanced method. RND Engines does do this, as they tear down the customer's core and document all the failures with photos, and a core report. The core charges work from a menu, which states costs of each core part up front, so you only pay for whats damaged. This is the way that I developed their engine program, as its always an issue, and a possibility for being unfair. To me, a failed cylinder is THE BEST failure an engine can have, as it only takes out the parts that we are not going to reuse anyway, IF its caught in time. Core engine exchange programs seldom work, and smaller companies that lack the capital to do these correctly are generally rebuilding anything they can. This is why companies like Motormeister (RIP) never work in the Porsche world. They kill themselves. You will always get exactly what you pay for, and the most expensive engine that can be bought, is often the cheapest engine that you can find. Of course, hindsight will prove this, and you don't know, what you don't know. The big glossy ads of these companies fool the best of the best too often. Its all false image, because these people can't build a positive reputation that builds their business from repeat customers, and word of mouth. That said, though some people have driven these engines making a noise for a good while, its simply not smart. Anyone who has mechanical experience knows why this is the case, because damage creates debris, and debris creates more damage. If you continue to drive an engine with these symptoms all you are doing is costing yourself more and more money, and wasting the critical core components that could otherwise be saved for reconstruction of the engine. This is a lot like the guy that wanted my engine, but told me his CEL had been illuminated for 6 years, and he kept driving. I sent him to someone else, because I knew how he'd treat my engine. Mechanical procrastination comes with steep monetary fines. We get quite a few purchasers who have only had cars for a few months before they fail. In some of these cases, someone knew the engine was failing, as they found debris in the oil, and unloaded the car before it had symptoms. Last year a customer bought a car with 15K miles for his wife's 25th Anniversary gift on July 4, the car was at my facility on July 6 with an engine failure. I could tell you these stories for days, over and over again. Make a good choice the first time, if you can barely afford to do it once, you can't afford to do it twice.

So sorry to hear about your engine, that really sucks. I was in the same situation last year when cylinders 4-6 were found to be scored on my 02 4S, which is also my first Porsche. I am not sure if scored cylinders is common, but I would say maybe a little bit? I may be a bit biased though. I also weighed out the options that have been discussed: rebuild (either OEM or something with LNE cylinders), get a good used stock engine, drive it, or simply sell the car. I decided not to just drive it as I was unsure if I wanted to rebuild yet or just sell it as a roller at the time so I did not want to risk damaging anything that I would need to reuse. I also decided against a used stock engine (unless I planned to sell the car after the used engine was installed) as I would be uncomfortable spending the money on a used engine to have a potential higher possibility of a engine failure VS a rebuilt engine. My advice would be to if you're not heart set on a Porsche maybe even look at other sports cars in the cost range of a rebuilt/new engine which may be as fun and potentially have less issues. This may help you decide if you really want to stick with a 996 or not. In my case I found I really liked the experience my 4S offered and did not want to risk this again with another 996. I had looked into a 996 turbo but the price in my area was above what I was looking to spend, so I opted to get an engine rebuild. At the time sending my car to Flat6 was close in price to what my indie and dealer wanted for a stock rebuild, so it was an easy decision for me at that point. Though unlike you, I have had the car for 4 years before this happened so I was a little attached. Good luck!

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I would have gotten a core refund and my cylinders were toast.

OK - I have a plan. I watched a Doug Demuro video last night about Carmax warranties and they seem pretty good. Sell your car to carmax and let me know where it is. I will buy it with the full carmax warranty and then when the engine goes I will have them replace it. Oh, crap - now that I said it, it sounds like fraud. So when it goes down, do not show car max this post. All kidding aside - Sorry to hear about this. I have been there. First thing to do is decide how much you like/love that car. A new engine - done right - will give you years of enjoyment and you will eventually get your monies worth. But if you are two year and switch - then it is going to be expensive either way.

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To be honest, he is not an insignificant reason why I ended up buying a 996

How did you feel the day you bought the car? Guess what, it is still the same car. Your engine went south at 70k or more. Lots of cars can have this happen. Rebuilding any engine costs a lot of money today. Porsche (and others) are just at the top of the list. Jake from Flat Six is a wise voice. If the experience has ruined the car for you then sell it as is...and be honest about the state of the engine when you do. You will take the smallest loss. If you wish the car was just as the day you bought it, it can be...just get the engine rebuilt by a quality shop and ten years from now you will still be smiling every day you drive it.

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This is the method I would likely take. I know what I know about my metal, and if I go with an exchange program, I'm getting mystery metal which someone else has discarded, or cored for a reason. I think keeping what I know is also important to minimize infant mortality issues which is something I've come to loathe. Not that there are unscrupulous vendors out there, but I happen to know there are some shady folks that deal in used/rebuilt/core/custom engines for the 911 that may be suspect. Since you have a well-known following here, I'm pretty confident that a customer can choose your shop with some degree of security - but let's face it, you can't rebuild every engine that goes Tango Uniform, and I suspect your prices are on the high side of the STd curve. NTTAWWT.

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Lots of core programs work from a bunch of engines being taken apart and thrown in a bunch of piles, then engines are built from random parts. This is what causes issues, along with the junkyard mentality that usually goes along with the processes from these types of programs. The RND program does not do this. The way I designed the program for RND the same core is disassembled, documented, and then machined, and assembled with all of its own components. Each engine stays on a cart with a process number that follows it through each station. The only time a part isn't from that engine is if it had failed, or did not measure in specification, or if it's a new part. A company like SSF can afford to buy solid cores, and hundreds of thousands of dollars was expended on core engines for the program. Lots of the engines they started with had nothing wrong with them, and ran fine. A fly by night, shoestring budget type of company can't do this. They buy whatever they can for the cheapest price possible and "rebuild" it. These types of people and companies didn't used to exist with the M96. They were afraid, and had no idea about the engine, then all of a sudden 4-5 years ago they popped up and polluted the industry. With my program I seldom have situations where an engine has a core issue. I only retain 6 main core components, and everything else is replaced. I have not been accepting engines that have had mega failures for a while now, because we are busy enough that we don't have to. Those are the cases that usually occur on the track, where an engine loses a crankshaft, rods or etc. This usually leads to a total loss of the engine's short block, taking out the main components that we reuse. My entire 2016 schedule will only have one of those engines in question, and I am now filling orders for slots that will have delivery in June of 2017. I hate it when cores are a variable, and keep me from making someone's exact final proposal the same day that we start the project, and execute the proposal. My way is the most expensive possible, and the most valuable. It always has been, and always will be.

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This is the system that's in place for most of the piston aviation engine builders. The entire engine stays in a tray, and each piece has traceability. Parts that don't meet tolerance are discarded(actually discarded, and destroyed), and a new or refurbished part is inspected, and substituted. With each and every component that goes into a piston aviation engine, there is a yellow tag(or green tag as the case may be for new) showing the history of that part. We have come across unscrupulous parts, and rebuild vendors in the aviation community that we can determine have caused a failure in flight. In some case, we can actually go back and determine the failing component that lead to a fatality. Bad vendors in the aviation community do not last very long. The disastrous story of Mobil 1 aviation oil will go down in infamy as the prototypical Way To Screw Things Up and kill people. It were a mess...

My organizational skills were forged in USMC aviation circles.Lots of what I implement here is employed in a military manner, from what I learned there. Keeping the entire engine on one cart, with a process number, and the entire history of that core in a database is the key. RND has one employee that does nothing except maintain these carts, their data base, and all the moving parts that it takes to process these cores into well- built RND engines, equipped with the majority of their original parts. Thats the way I designed that program for SSF, and it has ran like a Swiss Watch. These carts stay under lock and key, and are only removed one at a time when the engine is prepped, which is the time when that engine meets its new parts, machined block, and processed cylinder heads for the first time since tear down occurred. Then everything is ultrasonically cleaned, and makes its way into the O.R. The way I do things here at Flat 6 is similar, but since we don't deal with any core issues, we merely keep the original customers cart with all his parts on it, and he receives that same matching numbers engine back. We use red, yellow, and green "toe tags" as well, and each engine has dozens of photos taken during the tear down, documentation process.Paying attention to these failures was responsible for most of the things I learned about these engine failures more than a decade ago.

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I had to google that to find out about it - what a mess!

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No one listens to us either, they just keep buying it 5 quarts at a time at Walmart. Its that decal in the engine bay.

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And keep track of each and every oil container foil seal poured into the engine? LOL. Having worked at a nuclear power plant under NRA/NRC rules...totally get it the QA/QC approach.

Those engines are sold as complete long blocks, but every tube of assembly lube is inventoried, allocated and kept track of.

No question you are the best Jake! Was referring to our challenge of the day thread.

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Semper Fi. MAG-46, I red-Xed a few planes back then.

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MAG 16 and 36 for me.

Regarding the OP: was this to be a "permanent car" for you, or just one in a string? If the former: grit your teeth, take the hit, and enjoy a used car with a reliable 'new' engine. If it's just a stop on the journey, then parting company may be wiser. For me, my C4s is a permanent vehicle, and will find its way to Jake before the engine grenades for rebuilding and enhancement. For a ****load of money. Because quality. And because I don't care about the resale. Do what feels right for you, and to heck with what all of us magpies think!

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my 1st tour with the Marines was with 1st MAW (MWSS-172 in OKI). My buddies said "Oh, you will be schwinging with the Wing"

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+1 here I'm in the que for a Flat6 rebuild on my '99 C2. I'm into it for the fun factor backed by a feeling of confidence. All in, I'll have less $$ into this one than if I bought one of the more "desireable" 911s. This is my 1st and probably the last 911 I'll own.

I think you guys should get on jakes engine rebuild course then do your own, get the spanners out and really get stuck in. Wish we had someone offering that in the uk, you have to learn yourself from the manual and grabbing bits of info off people here and there and watching bits on you tube !!

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I did and had a blast!

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Yep, and the next enthusiast engine rebuild school is next week!!! Lots of Rennlisters are signed up for this one. Going to be fun, as always!

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I thought really hard about going this route. Maybe I will next time around. But I didn't want to be without my car for a year and didn't think I could get near as much out of the engine as FSI can. Only 375 days until my due date.

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It takes longer to create an engine, than to conceive, and deliver a child!

Yeah, but once you own it, you don't have to send the ungrateful little engine to an expensive college for four years. ( whoops, did I type that out loud?)

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Unless you are like me, and make them work, matching every dollar they earn so they can pay for it themselves. But I'm just an *******.

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Every $1 my kids earn, $.50 goes in their car fund and the other half they can spend on whatever they want (legal and moral of course), no questions asked. They are 12 and 13.

At one point during my build I was considering flying over to attend the course!!

Yes, and some of us are ******** as well, expecting them to supply 10% of a $160,000 education. Ask me how I know. I believe you and I, Mr Raby would get along reeeal well.

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I just had my lunch and threw up when I read your post. I thought you stopped with the bs a while ago? I see it's back again...Looks like you're looking for customers and exalting yourself again If you were sooo busy you wouldn't have time to brag about yourself online. Your customers have come to me so if you want to be competitive lower your prices from space. RND motors are also overpriced, instead of bragging online take my advise and you will gain more business.

Kind of funny. You are here too. Nope. Engines are going up, not down. No problem here with selling engines, I have maintained a 6+ month backlog since 1999. Where were you in 1999? Just wondering. Of course you have gained some business from those who can't see the value in my program. You are selling engines for 1/2 what we do. You should be more concerned with the prices that dismantlers are selling used engines for, since those engines are your competition- not what we create. Tell that to your SSF sales person, not to me. I have zero input into the RND program after developing it for SSF Auto Parts. You keep doing what you are doing, and so will I. I'm not concerned with your inner workings, and you shouldn't be with mine. I do not seek your posts out and make interjections, like you do to me, and like you have since you popped up a couple of years ago. To me, what you are doing is quite insignificant, and since what we build isn't remotely close, then you should just drop it.

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WAR - Why Can't We Be Friends - YouTube

Whatever happened to ^that^ nut job (the chef guy)? Has he had a stroke yet? Damn he was over the top - I guess that's why he got a "reality" TV show ... Ok back to the popcorn... and for Gods sake don't burn it

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You have a good product, I never said you don't but you can't steal money from people with your exorbitant prices. The only difference between my rebuilds and your rebuilds is in your mind and your prices. We offer same quality product for reasonable cost without charging an arm and a leg. I told you I would drive your customers away and I did it, now you have to look for business anywhere you can. We also started offering bigger bore option, wait another year and your bigger bore customers will also come to me. That's a promise. I will have more surprises for you in the future I don't have to worry about dismantlers, I do also sell used engines but they are always tested before removed and it's fully documented with vin and mileage. Dismantlers sell motors out of crash cars, many times so severe they cannot test them. I always pick cars with low mileage and light damage because I send rollers to Europe, fix and sell them there. That's how I have advantage over US dismantlers Due to my European roots and contacts I also have advantage over you. Every time I will see you exalting yourself online (as I promised you a long time ago) I will point it out. Do you think all people are idiots? That's how you treat them, you want everyone to drink your kool aid but not everyone does. Go bear another baby (engine) and deliver it in extreme pain. Before you do don't forget to see a good therapist!

If Jake was a hack he would have been exposed years ago. Does he boast about his product? Yes but his customers who've paid and waited for that product don't complain. They are, in fact, very enthusiastic about the engine that comes back to them. MB - you may produce an equally fine engine but one never looks good publicly bashing other people.

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I don't know you or anything about your business but if your marketing plan involves bashing someone who is well respected by all of their customers in the very forum that they spend time trying to help people out, I would make sure you had a backup plan. You kind of come across as an insecure *** that is desperate for business. Not saying you are, but as a small business owner I think it's invaluable to have feedback on how people are perceiving me.

Martin, with all due respect man... we have a ol' expression down here in Georgia, "The dog that barks the loudest is usually the one most afraid" In business, the principle of "Supply and Demand" can be applied to Flat 6 Innovations and Jake's services. There is a limited *supply* of Jake Rabys in this world and a high *demand* for his type of services; therefore, he can name any price he wants as long as someone is willing to pay. Period. He's not forcing anyone to do business with him and I'm sure he's professional enough to provide cost estimates for customers before they agree to move forward. So what's the problem? I've read many of your exchanges with Jake and I'm beginning to wonder if you're not just piggy backing off his popularity on this forum to drum up business. No? Cheers!

People choose to pay what they choose to pay. Those on this site are neither strapped for cash, nor are they ignorant. Swatch; Breitling. Both give you the same time of day. Both have their adherents. Enough with the **** throwing in the monkey cage, mm'kayy? Everyone is, or should be proud of their work: whether they are a 'bargain' or a 'premium' price. Let the buyers decide.

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Martin has made it obvious that this is precisely what he's doing. He believes he can offer a competitive product for less money, and the back-and-forth in the forums helps both parties more than any number of full-page ads in Panorama. The Raby fanboys stoke the fires and perpetuate the belief that a Flat 6 motor is the next-best-thing to having Jesus hand-build your engine, and Martin gets to be the good guy who supplies a competing product at an "affordable" price. An unsolicited aside: the real villain in this 996 engine game isn't Raby, and it's not Martin...it's Porsche. Porsche has the means to run a crate engine program like other car manufacturers; such a program should even be profitable. However, Porsche is far less interested in selling me a crate M96 than in selling me a new 911, or maybe a Macan, or anything else rolling off the Porsche assembly lines right now. Despite its claim for having such a meaningful relationship with its customers - and contrary to the recent assurances that the 996 is a "classic" that Porsche will be supporting ad infinitum - what we see from Germany when we go looking for a reliable source of 996 engines is a fully extended, very pale, nicely manicured German middle finger. Exactly. Raby vs. MB isn't a Hyundai-vs-Bugatti comparison...it's Cayman-vs-911 or Bentley-vs-Rolls. A rebuilt M96, regardless of whose name is on the bill of lading, is a boutique product being sold to an affluent few. The arguments that Raby is discriminating against those "unfortunate" 911 owners who can't afford a Flat 6 build and that MB is some kind of Robin Hood championing the cause of the less-fortunate luxury car owner are equally laughable.

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I actually prefer that middle finger from them for 2 reasons. The first is that even though the settled the class action, they still don't really admit to there being anything wrong. At least not enough that they were change that part of the motor. So if we could still get a motor from them, it would still have all the same weak points we already know and love. Secondly, as seen just before the last of the long blocks disappeared, what they would charge would make Jake's prices seem like a bargain!

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If this site had an option of "like" I'd give you a million likes for this post JR's work is very good just like ours, if someone wants to pay him, great. I just don't feel like reading his posts humiliating other rebuilders while exalting himself. It shows how insecure he is creating a picture of himself like he is the only person capable to work on those motors. He doesn't need it, I told him that a long time ago. Maybe you don't like it but if I see him bragging I will pinpoint it every time I see it.

Consumers are the winners here having choices and multiple options. Some of the old timers here didn't always have that. My $.02

5chn3ll has again nailed the crucial central issue (insightful b*st*rd...) The offender is Porsche. They resell the same 60's and 70's warm, fuzzy racing imagery to one after another generation of CONSUMERS: for that is all they consider their buyers. Why, then should we look at them any differently? Look, I've had five Porsches; some among you still HAVE five, or more. I like 'em. A lot. But they are made by a bunch of utterly self-interested corporate drones, who use their devoted and somewhat gullible core devotees to then sell ten million Macans and Cayennes to a bunch of wealthy soccer moms, and nouveau riche Chinese. Which is one reason I simply won't buy a new Porsche. If I'm going to get ****ed, I prefer to have it done by a friend, not a car company. I'll give my money to the current owner, keep the money stateside, and pay indies locally and far away to repair or improve my vehicle. And let Porsche become the truck manufacturer they've apparently always wanted to be.

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Lots of people buy LSx crate motors as the starting point for a build - maybe it'll get roller rockers or a nice lumpy cam before it gets dropped into the car. As far as price - Porsche already knows how to build "affordable" engines - if it cost them $30K to build a motor, the base price for a Macan wouldn't be $47.5K or a Cayman for starting at ~$52K. I realize it will never happen - but damn, I wish it would.

I'm just waiting for the $800 painted key fob option now that VW is hurting and will have to make up for their losses in creative ways. Waiting for that made in Mexico sub assembly to be in future Porsches with VW window switches or climate control *****.

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We all know that there really isn't that much special about the motor to justify the price they were charging (and would again if they believed there was a market worth pursuing, but you are correct about their focus). Hell the crush washer on my Cayenne diesel was something like $2.50 the last time I asked a Porsche dealer (the parts guy looked rather offended by my hysterical laughing). As it's a Audi/VW motor I asked him for the price of the Audi part (I gave him the number) since they are a combo Audi/Porsche dealer. $1.75 and he didn't have a clue he was looking at the same part. I then swung by a VW dealer on the way home and picked up a handful at $0.50 each If they can charge 5x for something that they had no part in designing or manufacturing (beyond slapping a Porsche P/N on it), why wouldn't they want $40k something for they at least had some part of creating?

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Meh. Europe has its own Mexico. It's called Eastern Europe.

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Waiting? That's been here for awhile though you might think it a bargain at $500 or whatever ridiculous price they were asking when I bought my P!g.

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I think we're both saying the same thing. The rub is that Porsche is still pointing at cool old racing posters and saying, "Look! Such heritage! Much motorsport!" and feeding us the propaganda we want to hear ("That raggedy *** car you insist on driving is a classic! We'll support it forever!") while in reality focusing on loading out fancy minivans with *** warmers ($1,560), power rear window shades ($450), and back seat DVD players to absolve parents from having to interact with their children ($2,890). "Sell you a new engine? Why would we sell you a new engine when we could just sell you a new car? That would be stupid!" I believe that Porsche now wants to sell you the cars you will drive TO the track instead of cars you would drive ON the track - and while I dearly love my 996 and don't ever plan to part ways, I can see that it was the middle child. It will never quite be a track rat like its big brother, and it certainly isn't a snooty champagne-brunch-eating lardass younger sister...

I was inches away from buying a new Corvette 18 months ago, and was at the dealership looking at one. Sitting two spaces down from it was, I believe a 997. Upon query, the sales guy said "Oh, that's the sales manager's car. He loves that thing." I bought my C4s six weeks later. Dummy. I should have bought the better car, instead. But no, no: I had to fall for the 'distinguished heritage, constant evolution, engineered by the Master Race' nonsense one more time. Love that car. But they are just NOT the best thing out there for the money. There. I said it. I've never had, nor liked Corvettes nor Camaros. But they are arguably the $60,000 Ferrari and $40,000 Porsches of the current market. Only exclusivity keeps Porsche where they are: and even that is getting a bit thin. OK, aficionados: Let me have it. I'm ready for the flames.

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Jake, love ya brutha and I love my Corps... but some of the things I know we did to repair our CH53's 'on the fly' to get them to fly was, at the time, hilarious to me. But hell, we got away with it, and flew another day. But in hindsight I wonder how the hell we ever got away with it , like flying the dogshyt out of a high time gearbox just to make it to a squadron max launch(LOL). Man, those were the days, for real. Just tug'n your timing chain brother... I would not fly with any other branch other than "The Few, The Proud" , because I've also seen what it takes for the other branches just to get their aircraft out of the damn barn (KNOOoooT). Marines, we made it work, and work properly EVERY TIME! SF

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The following analogy will only make sense to you if you've seen the movie Bloodsport. The 911 is this guy...calm, collected, trained... And my Corvette is this guy, the beer-drinking psycho who will punch you in the head as hard as he can until you fall over. The moral of this unintelligible story: Why limit your options? Some days I want to take Jean Claude out for a canyon run; other days, I want to take The Ogre out and tear up some perfectly good tire tread.

suggested modified title: __________________ Martin Biernacki Porsche Engine Specialist Sport Bike racer 3" ***** _____

Hey! I ordered the P!g with both those options! (Well I got the cheaper *** warmer option as my rear passengers can suck it up and buy their own!)

When these stories come up, I can't help but think of the E60 M5 where by the time your engine blows at 80k miles, you've already spent 10k keeping the SMG tranny alive. But damn it's a fun car to drive.

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Yes that's why I said I would wait til it crept up to $800. I think $500 is too cheap currently for that option. Do not confuse labor rates with skill. If you've ever hired Eastern Europen contractors vs Mexican contractors, you'll know exactly what I mean.

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Semper fi, We did it because we can make something out of nothing. We can survive when most all other have lost hope, and we can fly 40 year old aircraft with ear plugs jammed int he PV arm seals to keep them leaking rotor head oil and falling from the sky. We can use a pair of safety wire pliers to over-ride the Emergency Throttle Actuator, and get an engine back on line, before our other engine melts it's T5 section, and we fall out of the sky... And we always win. Always. Whether in the civilian world, or in combat. We always believe that anyway we can fight, and win is fair; because the only unfair fight is the one that you lose. Anyway, Martin compares what he does, to what we do simply because the actions being taken are similar. An engine is being assembled. The differences in what we do are not posted, because I won't allow the enemy to simply combat each of those items with their own mis- information. No other engine comes standard with my Patented IMS Solution as standard. Thats just one item, my spreadsheet of components is more than two pages long, and even includes sensors in most different engine designations. No, I won't share this until I have an executed proposal and a deposit from a buyer. After I do have this I'll share it all. Enough of the components are divulged up front to prove its an engine more outfitted than anyone else, but as a Marine I keep my perimeter secure. I have foiled some pretty good plots from others in the past, including one last week. I remember the day when the only other engine someone could buy other than mine was from Porsche... That was fun. Am I proud of what I have built? Damn right. Will I boast about that when I get the opportunity? Damn right? You know why? Because I have earned the ability to do this through effectiveness, and time spent in this industry. Some people love that, some hate it. I don't give a damn either way, and I never have.

To quote the lyrical genius of Taylor Swift: "And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.... And the fakers gonna fake, fake, fake, fake, fake Baby, I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake I shake it off, I shake it off" Sorry, couldn't resist. Now everyone will really think I'm gay....

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Damn right brutha.... DAMN RIGHT!!! Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas (Often Tested, Always Faithful, Brothers Forever) SF

It's not often you see patriotic latin phrases and Taylor Swift lyrics in the same thread.

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yeah America is pretty badass

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You're not gay???? J/K bro...you left yourself open for that one, I just couldn't restrain myself.

Yes. But who's the twelve year old girl, wearing the cowboy hat…? Yes, I'm over 50. No, I don't know any Taylor Swift songs. More an 'Exile on Main Street' , and 'Get Your Wings' era guy.

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I think when you are 50, all girls under 30 look 12. :P I have 12 and 13 yo boys so my Taylor Swift exposure is mostly from them talking about how horrible she is.

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Keep up the good work

Taylor Swift is an angel I tell you. Bet the Stones would have liked her @ 26 Brown sugar how come you taste so good? Brown sugar just like a young girl should

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Vote for Bernie. Then they will be FREEEEEEE !!!! Without Jake and Martin spats, the entertainment value of Rennlist would decrease by a small but measurable amount.

She'd be too old for Bill Wyman; I recall his last wife was, what: 19 when they married? There's a story about the Stones…entertaining a girl interviewing them for her high school newspaper on their jet. Great musicians. Filthy human beings. I'm sure Aerosmith and The Doobie Brothers were total gentlemen, in contrast… Oh, yeah: The thread. 996 engines. They break sometimes. Somebody should fix them. Either cheaply, or expensively.

Anyone seen the OP lately? Oh wait, we scared him away on the first day of the thread.

So to sum up, I'm the Rennlist Robin Hood with a 3'' *****, lol. BTW, Jake I'm still waiting for the first copy of your book which you promised me almost 2 years ago with special dedication just for me I was still in Chicago freezing my butt off and needed a fire starter for my fireplace. Now I'm in Florida it's hot as hell yet still no book. Since you won't share any details unless you get a cc number please tell us what "special" components you put in your motors. Main components have been constant for years (cases, crank, heads, cams, etc...) Is your special ingredient some kind of magic dust, touch of an angel or what else? I see your pics on fb, looks like some parts need a thorough cleaning and I saw some rust of the rods. I would never think this would happen at FSI! Good parts cleaning is a must!

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Any one checked to see how many "for sale" threads this troll has started? He's gotten more replies off of bashing Jake then all of them combined. Lol. :attentionwhore:

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The warning stickers in new Ferrari's are now bi-lingual Chinese & English. So it's not just Porsche.

Quoting JR "Anyway, Martin compares what he does, to what we do simply because the actions being taken are similar. An engine is being assembled. The differences in what we do are not posted, because I won't allow the enemy to simply combat each of those items with their own mis- information." Yes Jake, I can clearly see the difference between your motor and my motor. Now everyone here on rl can also see the difference and decide for themselves In this case of basic rebuild (not bigger bore option): 1)FSI cylinders are OEM aluminum, still prone to scoring, d chunk and cracking. Ours resleeved with steel sleeve technology with 5 year warranty. 2)FSI installs dirty pistons, not possible at MB Motorsports. Our pistons are modified for custom piston rings and restored. 3)FSI engine cases not resurfaced under the cylinder head gasket. Impossible at MB Motorsports. 4)FSI has 1 year warranty for parts and labor, price 40% higher than MB. We also offer 1 year warranty for parts and labor, price is 40% cheaper than FSI. 5)All parts inside like main and rod bearings, sliders, tensioners, chains, ims roller bearing, etc are brand new. We both use outside sources for head restoration and resleeving, and both have very good quality end product. It's equal standard in this case. I will post differences between our bigger bore and FSI bigger bore soon. My price will not be $24k up, it will be $16k with much better quality product.

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No, no, the spats were some other guy. Please try to keep it straight.

Incorrect! All OEM parent material above the water jacket is removed with the Nickies process. The cylinder is COMPLETELY replaced with a billet, extruded cylinder which is Nikisil plated. This process is the same that LN and I developed in 1999, and has been sold continually since 2001 with tens of thousands of engines fitted, both air cooled, and water cooled. Martin, your company changed names 3 times in an 18 month period. Quite frankly a promise of warranty is only secure if the company is still around 5 years later. We do not leverage a piece of paper to sell engines. What? Incorrect! Every single engine that we reconstruct has new JE pistons, and some engines use CP pistons in certain applications. The only engines that see any piston thats not new, out of the box is an engine thats being repaired, not reconstructed. Incorrect again. ALL reconstructed engines feature a CDM ground cylinder surface, as well as a cylinder head surface. The photo that you have posted does not reflect a reconstructed engine at all, it was an engine that was being repaired. The photo I have posted below illustrates the cylinder deck of an FSI reconstructed engine. Thats right, because we don't over-sell and under- deliver. The warranty is not needed, BUT I recently did repair a track engine that had an issue 5 years after it was built. I did that for free. Do you replace all valve seats, guides and valves? My cylinder head shop is an extension of my company, and has been since 2003. Sleeves are only installed by LN Engineering, which is a company I assisted in founding in 1999. I have been the developer for LN since the beginning, and what we have can't be purchased in any other fashion. Hardly. You are using steel sleeves, with a loss of thermal conductivity of near 25% compared to Nickies. You are using some company that ou claim is in another country to do this work, and that company has no reputation. They have not been developing their product since 1999, and they have likely been in business a shorter time than you have. Again, you are comparing apples to grapefruits. Its more like comparing night, to day. You can't, because you have no comparable to what we create as a whole unit. You have no dyno, you have no research lab, you have no flow bench, and lastly, you have no experience at elevated power levels in regard to internal manipulation of the engine. You will bring to market an engine that lacks development, just like everyone else does. Now, that said, you are trying to compare some photos of an engine that we repaired to an engine thats reconstructed. Don't fool people here, these guys are smarter than that. That said, a used engine that we are repairing is the closest comparison to anything that you "build". I welcome you to the M96 Performance Engine world, in fact, I offer an online M96/ M97 Performance Engine Class, you might consider enrolling in it to save yourself some hassles. The learning curve is 90 degrees otherwise. Here's a photo of the cylinder deck surface of a reconstructed engine. This one belonged to Max501 here on Rennlist, and the engine made 347 HP at the rear wheels, and 307 lb/ ft of torque. This was on pump gas, its not a race engine. Now its clear that we can post even fewer photos on Facebook, as these will be misconstrued and used by the enemy. Yes Martin, you are not the competition, because you can't compete, but you can be the enemy. I too have a revision to my engine program, but its simply some new bore sizes, strokes and engine combinations with displacements up to 4.4L. Here I have 4.0 and 4.1 engines filling 97% of my schedule for the next 14 months. People keep wanting more and more, so its time to turn up the volume and apply what we developed one before we needed to. Bore & strokes and combinations have evolved with our development of different cylinder deck enhancements, along with semi closed decks. For those who are interested in the "Flat 6 Difference" I offer online webinars held live (Hosted by Charles Navarro and I) once per month where we go over the details associated with creating these engines. These are not for educational purposes- they are for sales purposes, yet we'll not "sell" you anything, we just give the facts, and the comparisons. Thats the only way that we share the full story with our engines and we are security minded with enrollees, simply for the reasons of all the "Martins" that have popped up over the last few years.We require a full application to be filled out. I have a room full of Rennlist members that will be attending my M96 102 Engine Rebuild School (Hands- on) tomorrow through Saturday. I am sure that Martin will be a hot topic amongst those attendees at our Friday night Social. The last class those guys had a great time after a few beers!

Well not to fuel the fire but my wife has an Acura MDX and there's been quite a few owners of excessive oil consumption on the newer J series motors by Acura owners. These have aluminum block utilizing Alusil lining. I found it interesting that Acura had a formal TSB to replace the short block for excessive oil consumption for '10-'13 models. I found it even more interesting that Acura switched back to steel liners in their '14+ models. After researching it a bit, there's been quite a few manufacturers that flip flopped on these types of liners including Jaguar. I understand that Nikasil is different but the basics of having a coating on aluminum is still similiar. Martin, are there any noticeable heat differences and/or HP and torque differences throughout the rev band utilizing the steel liners?

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Wow, you really think I'm an idiot. I was talking about your BASIC rebuild not bigger bore! I'm not comparing your bigger bore option to my stock rebuilds! I'm talking about the stock Andrew's rebuild which looks like scrap. I don't know why he paid you for this "dirty" job. It's no rocket science to install JR brand new pistons straight from the box. You didn't even bother to clean the oem pistons but still charged him more than what we do. You didn't bother to resurface the cases either, but when you send cases to LN they come back already resurfaced. It's clearly visible in the pictures I posted above. I will be back to our bigger bore subject soon. As to your claim that I have no idea how to build performance engines please remember that I've been a superbike racer for the last 23 years and have built my own performance engines for my own racing purposes. My engine has 240hp from 1l cc, 14,500 rpms. So don't tell me about your Porsche performance engines! As to your students, I know a few of them who later call me for advise with different problems when they get stuck. Don't explain yourself anymore, people can see the pictures and compare. You do not have to twist the facts. Knowing how you can brag you will soon say this motor didn't come out of your shop and you didn't rebuild it. Instead of signing up for your class I'd prefer your book which you promised me

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Here's more fuel. There were running changes in the engine of the 928 which has Alusil bores like all prev 928 engines. Final version was 5.4L with different rings. They have excess oil consumption problems as well, however - we think more likely in the 928 case it's a function of crankcase windage and aeration of the oil in the spaces of the crankcase than any blowby of the rings.

I remember when my engine went south like it was yesterday. As many have experienced, I was in a dark place as I researched options over a few weeks. I remember setting up a phone conference with Jake. I knew 10 minutes into our conversation that FSI was my choice. All the costs and timeline were discussed with me up front (there was no fine print!!) From the moment I signed up, I knew with confidence my machine would be brought back to life with a new heart. Jake publicly shares a ton of his extensive hands/brain experience. He continues to research and improve as demonstrated by new products and processes. He could hoard his insight for his benefit. Yet- he openly shares for the benefit of all. His long term work product quality supports his craftsmanship. I was fortunate to participate in his engine rebuild classes. We all saw up close what makes a FSI engine special. It is not this thing or that- it the entire process of creating a custom engine for the application. FSI could cookie-cutter generic motors out the door with ease. Yet- they are building a custom engine for a custom customer. I think there were only about 8 items (maybe less) used from my original motor, and specifically outlined in the proposal. There are a ton of new bits and pieces all documented in an extensive picture library I received with the car. FSI even threw in a few extra goodies. The FSI process is a custom personal experience and much more than the purchase of a generic engine. I appreciate quality and straight talk- chalk me up in the Raby fan club!!

Well, you have done, and are further doing a good job of proving this. HA HA!! You have GOT to be kidding me!! Those are the TEAR DOWN photos of Andrew's engine! Note that there's few photos in that album compared to the others? Well thats because we had an SD card full of pics fail and we lost them. For all you guys to se, this is the photo album that Martin is referencing. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=3 See, you truly do not know, what you do not know. Here's more of what you do not know: Martin, I do not offer a "stock rebuild". 100% of my engines feature larger bore sizes , from the Street Performer with it's first up size in bore, to the Track Performer, and Track Performer Plus. 100% of ALL ENGINES that we build from scratch receive Nickies cylinders. In the instances where we must utilize a stock bore size due to class rules (spec 996 and Spec Boxster) we still utilize Nickies for those engines. Nickies are now PCA legal as of 2015 in all classes except Specbox, and they were included in 2016. The RND program satisfies the needs for anyone to have a stock replacement engine. With the RND program in place, (Engines available through SSF Auto Parts) 100% of Flat 6 Innovations engines are Performance Engines. Again, we do not offer a stock replacement engine. I don't know where you get this info from, but its clear that you don't process the info that you read very well. The smallest bore size that we now use is 101mm. The largest M96 factory bore size was 99mm, found only in the M97.01 engine. Go back to the drawing board, Martin, or just quit posting. That said, we have completely hi-jacked and robed this original poster of his thread. We should both apologize and let him have his thread back.

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It sure be nice if we can get info on these various engine packages without having to attend a webinar. But of course you'll say something about "the enemy" yada yada yada...

I officially declare this thread Martin'd.

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It would be nice. I agree. A 1:1 phone chat with me is part of every engine purchase, thats the other way to acquire all the details. People love this, and its what I have always done, and will continue to do. Most of these chats last an hour, some 3 hours. A website with everything we do will not happen. Basic info is all we can provide, for the very reasons that Martin has already outlined with his off- base summaries.

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There is minimal hp loss but it's a small %. Answer yourself, would you rather have a reliable worry free engine or small % of hp more which you will never feel?

Quote: "HA HA!! You have GOT to be kidding me!! Those are the TEAR DOWN photos of Andrew's engine! Note that there's few photos in that album compared to the others? Well thats because we had an SD card full of pics fail and we lost them. For all you guys to se, this is the photo album that Martin is referencing. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=3 See, you truly do not know, what you do not know. " You seriously have all people for idiots, how is it possible that it's disassembly when there is no oil or usual heavy dirt on all parts? Most importantly, 3 connection rods are already attached to the crank shaft and next step is installing pistons as it is in the next photo in your album. You cannot remove pistons when they are connected to rods! Cut the crap and don't bury yourself anymore. I've caught you lying and you know it! I'm done here, no point in going back and forth.

I thought that you said the engine was dirty? Now you say that its too clean. Please make up your mind. Ok.. It looks like you don't have all the tools I do, or processes. It also looks like maybe you assemble engines in a different order than we do, thats to be expected; you haven't attended my classes. Glad to see that you are really ready to give it up. Till next time, which I am sure won't be too long.

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Jake, I think all people want to know like me are just the basics of what makes each of your package engines different. We're not asking for any specifics where your competition can really benefit from. For example for your street performer, some may want to know that it's been stroked to 3.8L and power increases can be expected of 40hp over factory for example. I don't think the avg person cares to know what exact components are replaced to achieve this. It's hard to plan/save/wish for a particular engine package that no one knows anything about. Of course unless you are Tesla, but even they provided some pics and a few running models of the Model3 before they asked potential owners to plunk down their down payment. From a consumer perspective, I don't think it's very realistic for most to have to sit in on a long conversation or webinar just to get some basic info.

Its a large investment, and most of my purchasers DO want this. Last week I sold an engine to a rennlister and we had a chat that lasted over an hour, after we had emails go back and forth 5 times. A couple of those were over 1,000 words. No website, or other means of conveying info other than direct interchange can give people this amount of info that they will be able to understand. Most of my purchasers are very technical, even though they don't build things. They come to us last after they have gone to everyone else- I like that. To attain a 3.8 from a 3.4 I can do this with all bore, with an increase to 101.6mm. From a 3.6 I can also attain 3.8 with all bore (96 to 99mm), utilizing the 78mm crank for both these. With the same 3.6 I can also achieve my 4.0, coupling the 101.6mm bore to the 82.8mm crank. Then comes my billet cranks, where any stroke is possible, creating a number of combinations from 3.5L, to 4.4L. My newest engines are smaller, yet make more up top power than others, with some losses of bottom end torque. A big bore, coupled to a de- stroker with a non- stock rod length makes for a beast that very radical. Couple that to my R51 CNC heads, and you have a true beast. Strokes cut down into the 65mm range change everything with a monster bore size. These are not conventional, simple, easy to build combinations. Now that we have perfected the 102.7mm bore (in development since 2011) things change again. I have been too busy to even release any of that.

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Lake Speed Jr. from Driven Oils and I were having a discussion about oil consumption. This is a very complicated topic. With all the changes to thinner oils - they are coming out with 0w-10 and 0w15 oils. On a V8 going from a 5w30 to 5w20 is worth about 2 mpg. Going thinner can gain additional savings in fuel economy. CAFE standards are pushing this. Couple with low tension rings and you end up with high oil consumption. Another issue is over-filling. Lake said he was doing a test and if you ran the oil 1 qt high the oil temperatures were through the roof. Put it back to normal level and oil temperature settles down. High oil temperatures thins out the oil, again, leading to increased oil consumption when paired with thin oils, not to mention all the extra windage and blowby. Then throw in direct injection, no more secondary air injection (they just add extra fuel at warm up to fuel the cats) and fuel dilution from high pressure fuel getting past the low tension rings. Bingo, oil gets thinned out and bores washed down. Lastly, surface finish on alusil, lokasil, and nikasil is completely different than on cast iron/ductile/steel. I just went to an AERA conference where Sunnen was lecturing on honing. Aluminum bores take a 10-15 degree cross-hatch with an Ra some times as low as 2-4. Oiling properties of aluminum bores are completely different. Done right, you get more horsepower from less friction, lower oil temperatures, and more horsepower (about 2 hp per cylinder) Just do some light reading in the SAE about engine development and you can find example after example of modern engines going aluminum for better cooling and efficiency: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...ock%20benefits Just one example of many. That's why we chose to aluminum Nikasil sleeves for our blocks. With iron or other ferrous counterparts, cross-hatch can be done from 45-60 degrees and Ra isn't as important. They can control oil consumption by adjusting the peaks and valleys, using plateau hone, etc.

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Thanks for your explanation. In the specific case of Acura, these were non direct injection, not high compression ratio, 5w20 oil spec'd. However I suspect the switch back to steel liners was also due to the fact that they introduced direct injection on the newer models, coupled to the issues they've had in the past with Alusil engines(somewhat smearing their bullet proof reputation). I do agree with this but keyword here is "done right" but also I'd like to add maintained right too. We all know the casual consumer has a hard time doing this sometimes. I see way too many people using 87oct on their turbo BMW's these days to save that $.60 or so per gallon. Then they cry wolf when something bad happens. I agree with this and a way for manufacturers to get additional mileage and thus possibly more sales. Unfortunately it's not the best for other areas and the consumers could risk facing some issues long term.

In today's world we have determined that the accounting team is in charge. Anytime we wonder why something is done, with any vehicle, it comes down to dollars. Because of that, to solve problems we don't follow suite with what the factory does. In fact we don't care at all. It only makes sense to the accountant.

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What's the country of origin of the cranks? (unless that's a state secret - j/k)

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Well, they don't come from Poland, or even Europe... 100% USA made. Here's the process of Ltusler's finished billet crankshaft being made for his FSI 4.0 in his 1999, 996 that made 366 RWHP with R51 CNC heads in 2014. This combo today is now pushing 400RWHP and should break the barrier by October, with 350 lb/ ft of torque. All power is made below the stock rev limit. Roughed and sobbed Journals and throws rough milled Ready to move to the CNC crank grinder Finished product after Ion Nitriding, cryogenic enhancement, and micro- polishing

K, thanks.

Wow.... just WOW! What a thread.

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The Porsche seats have been made in Mexico since the 997.

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"Made in Mexico" or "Assembled in Mexico"? It would be funny if Porsche used Mexican leather or had their guys weld the seat frames and such.

[QUOTEHA HA!! You have GOT to be kidding me!! Those are the TEAR DOWN photos of Andrew's engine! Note that there's few photos in that album compared to the others? Well thats because we had an SD card full of pics fail and we lost them. For all you guys to se, this is the photo album that Martin is referencing. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=3 See, you truly do not know, what you do not know. [/QUOTE] Here's further proof that you are a liar and ripping people off on BASIC REBUILDS. More pictures from your fb page which show disassembled block (first picture) and assembled Jim's block with dirty pistons again (second picture), and what's most important not resurfaced cases under cylinder head gasket (again). It's far from my European quality You have a lot more to learn!

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Hmmm... Might explain this then: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/9331...a-new-one.html

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And all transmissions from 2005-up are made in Japan, suspension has been made in Italy for a long time, engine parts in Austria, electric parts in Poland. We have a Porsche that's been around the world It's not only Porsche because currently Mercedes is building it's largest European engine factory in Poland. All German factories currently employ refugees from Syria and other countries. They were lacking laborers this is why Germans took in all those refugees from Syria.Now they have too many of them and Merkel is trying to impose 250k euro penalty per one refugee if Polish government refuses to take them in. Many small cities and villages live off being employed at Porsche factories all over the world. Later, smart Jewish people lend money from their banks to people who want to purchase a new Porsche. In the end they still have to repair it all the time and circle goes on in the world of consumption...

It's Free Trade Zone spin. For example, Fords made in Mexico are shipped to a Free Trade Zone in the U.S. A 3PL company disassembles the new vehicles and then ships them to Brazil, for instance, as "parts". The vehicles are then reassembled by Brazilian labor and sold on the Brazilian market. Tariffs on parts are only 2% vs 200% for importing a vehicle and it creates jobs in Brazil. It happens all over the world. The science of logistics is fascinating.

Would be nice if German engineering was German engineering but in these times probably not financially possible!!

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It boils down to a combination of greed/capitalism/shareholders/demand/and just sheer stupidity of people for promoting that bad behaviour. You know, the peeps that are actually willing to pay $500 for a painted key fob? I felt dumb just paying $200 for a shift ****. Sheesh... At least I'm glad I kept a couple older German watches around.

I know it's like they do the double flip aswel, they buy the parts in cheap from Poland and put the car together then charge loads for it but then when the part fails and you need another part that's cheap from Poland they put a porsche part number on it andcharge you like £200 for the part that was cheap from Poland arrrrgggghhhhh!!!! It's not them that's stupid is it !!

Well, you don't go from barely eking out a profit to being massively profitable unless something drastic changes. Dieter and Hans can't double productivity because of a half-day seminar. As the old saying goes, you can't lose money on each sale and make up for it with volume. Doing things the old-world way resulted in a product that cost too much to sell, so the Japanese were invited in to explain what Porsche was doing "wrong." The good news for us is that everything Porsche makes now is made "the right way," right? If you haven't read the Panorama article a year or two back about the leather-covered 911 (the last 930), it's worth going back and finding. It makes you understand why Porsche came to be the object of adoration for so many people, why they were not able to turn a profit for a long time, and why Mezger engines and hand-painted, custom-upholstered dial faces are not consistent with the new Porsche. This is not to say that Porsche does not make awesome things - but to thrive in the world where Teslas are valued more than the wooden Morgan that Richard Hammond was so enthralled with on Top Gear, they have had to start making different things...or perhaps more importantly, making things differently.

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This is why I buy everything in Poland and repair my components in Poland. There are many companies that do work for Mercedes, Porsche and many other well known manufacturers. In the end you just see Mercedes, Porsche (or any other manufacturer) stamp on final products plus mark up cost.

Yes it's fine they have gone with some cheaper parts to be competitive what annoys me is that when something goes and you need a new part they charge you the earth for something that obviously doesn't live up to the price they are charging you for it like electric and sensors things like that , if they are using cheaper stuff they should charge less for parts at least??

As an outside observer the FSI owner/operator/cheerleader seems a bit shady. He seems like he does know a fair amount about these engines, however some of the stuff he comes up with is just way out there. The m96 is an engine, there is nothing special about it. All his talk about steel vs nikasil liners, blaa, blaa, blaa. The motorcycle game has used that stuff for decades and both with equal success. The mbmotorsports guys just seems like a salesman, but I'm okay with that. He sells his product and doesn't rely on fear mongering to get it done.

It took me a while to get used to the dynamic. I have relatives like that. There is only one way to do things and that is how they are done. Period. And the way they do them are the best. Period. No room for outside discussion. It would be shady if they did not believe in what they are saying. But they do. They truly believe that every m96 is a time bomb and the 90+% that have no problems are just lucky.

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FSI is doing things with the M96 engine that nobody else is coming close to and has posted his dynos for all to see. As far as shady, you might want to talk to his customers and see if with all of the hype surrounding him that there was anyway he was able to live up to their expectations. It may give you just a little more info to help form your opinion. As far as the salesman, I do feel for him. Three keys to people buying are price, technical knowledge, and relationship. You always try to have two of the three depending on your skill set. Martin seems to have the price, but doesn't seem to be trying very hard to build relationships. At least on Rennlist. As far as technical knowledge, he may have it but we haven't seen that either. Lastly, it's pretty easy to assume that the details are all the same if you don't dig into them. While your motorcycle background probably gives you a good platform to learn from, it may not give you the knowledge to understand what the engineering minds are trying to accomplish with each minute detail they make a decisions on. In the end, it's only by trying to over perform on all of the small things, that you are able to accomplish great things as a whole. This has great value to some people, and none to others. That's why it's good to have choices.

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As someone who has actually spoken to and had Jake do engine work for them I couldn't disagree more. Jake doesn't need me or anyone waving his flag. If you ever deal with him his work and customer service set the bar extremely high for others. The great thing is that their are options and it is a free country. I put my trust in Jake, Charles and my local independent (certified installer) shop.

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The funny thing is it's the other guy that called them a ticking time bomb.....

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i don't know either one of them personally just an observation from reading the forums. both seem to know the engine very well, however it seems to me, one relies on fear, the other relies blunt force. In the end it's what ever their respective customers want and what they are willing to pay for. If I was in the market I'd have to carefully consider the pros and cons of each one, but if I have to make a call right now I'd go with the salesman. His products seem to speak for themselves minus the fear bs.

Fair enough. The two driving factors in my decision were hardening the engine for increased track usage and maximizing hp/torque across the power band. So it was a pretty easy decision. If I was just needing to rebuild the engine and was OK with a slight power loss I'd have to research all of the options a lot harder before choosing.

So Martin, isn't this how your supposed to turn right when you're a Sport Bike racer? I know. 25891463171896.jpg

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Yes, even intermediate riders can do that. Trick is to brake very late from super fast speed (every time it's emergency braking). That's how you show who's the boss Next step is you have to be the fastest coming out of that turn with full throttle at the same time avoiding high side. All this time using 200hp to your advantage so it doesn't kill you but it pulls you out of that turn the fastest. Last week @Jennings GP (by FL&GA state line) my fellow competitor left the track in a helicopter, nasty high side didn't end very well for him). BTW, I won 2 races today at Talladega raceway in Alabama. Coming back to Porsche subject (believe it or not) I used Mobile oil I got from Walmart My last engine from my old bike lasted whole 2 racing seasons until transmission blew out. Motor was still in perfect condition when it happened, aside from transmission catastrophic failure. That motor turns 14,500 rpms, so last 2 seasons would be approximately 10 years of riding Porsche on the street (if we compare how many times engine turned in both cases). Guru says Walmart oil is crap and the one he sells is the best. In my case I can confirm that Mobile oil I got from Walmart worked very well. I always recommend Mobil 1 for Porsche too, that's what factory also recommends. Here's a link to youtube video of split bmw s1000rr engine running: 2010 BMW S1000RR cut engine at 14 000 rpm 1 - YouTube

Wow! I'm new here so hopefully I won't get my head chopped off... Being a small business owner and awaiting my first Porsche 991.2 I can't help but chime in on this back and forth. A person builds a successful business by building value in the product/service that you are selling. One does NOT do that by knocking the competition! When you knock the competition you tell the prospective buyer that my competitor is better then me! What your saying is I can't compete with his better product so i'll bash him. As a consumer I will always research a purchase and make an informed educated decision and will pay close attention to what customers think of the product/service and customer support. I expect the perspective seller to build value in his company and why I should use them over there competition. If instead he tells me how badly the competition sucks I will not do business with him. Flat6- I'm not commenting on whether or not you have the best product, BUT your positive value proposition while staying professional impresses me, as well as your apparent knowledge and willingness to share your knowledge via classes. Good is not always cheap and should never be the deciding factor. You do get what you pay for. MBMotorsports- Again I'm not commenting on whether or not you have the best product either, BUT i would never do business with your company. Instead of building value in your product or explicitly saying why somebody should do business with you (positively) instead of one of your competitors you act unprofessional and attack a fellow competitor which tells me that you feel his product is superior and you have to throw stones to get attention. From my experience this is not how to earn customers. I sell very large purchases everyday(commercial and residential HVAC installations), and I NEVER knock the competition! When I am asked about the competition I actually say they are a great company, but this is why you should do business with me... when they interview my competitor and my competitor bashes me who do you think they choose??? I guess thats why i have a 90 day backlog right now...

I would swap the pic above into your avatar. Your foot off the peg makes you look like a rookie.

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Watch Rossi race and you will see the leg helps in extreme braking to pull the balance towards the turn. It helps to turn the bike before you lean into the turn (only in extreme braking). Someone who doesn't watch or race superbikes might now know that but all top moto gp and superbike racers do it. For those in the subject this picture actually shows the opposite of what you thought

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I can see you're new here, it sounds like you could be right but you're not. It's actually the other way around, he always bashed my company since the start and all others any chance he gets. Do you see me saying anything about other engine builders around here? No, simply because I don't care what other people do unless they get into my business and make comments about me. When he made his comments about me and my work he got on my wrong side. If he was a normal guy who does a great job it wouldn't be a problem but he exalts himself and acts like the only capable person to rebuild Porsche engines. He also exaggerates and lies, I caught him doing it in this very tread. This is why every time I see it I will point it out. Even if I was just a private Porsche owner here on rl I'd do the same thing because I hate when people exalt themselves and talk a bunch of crap about others comparing them to bottom feeders (among many other things).

Interesting, I'll watch for that next time I see a race.

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maybe thats true in other posts, BUT I read this post and the comments he made did not mention you. You hopped on and immediately started bashing him. Just not good business. If everything you say is true then customers will report what you are saying. Stay positive and explain why people should use YOU. let the quality of your work speak for itself. Ask your customers to post reviews when they are happy with your work and grow your business positively. There is always room for more then one expert. Be positive with what you offer and stay positive. Something tells me you are both good at what you do and take different paths to get there. He will explain why his path is better and you explain why yours is better. Customer will decide based on positive feedback, and good customer experience. Ive been in my field for 20 plus years and a business owner for the last 10..maybe I'm getting soft in my old age but customers want positive not negatives are insults...

""he always bashed my company since the start and all others any chance he gets"" and maybe your absolutely right. i didn't see those other posts, but if this is true take the high ground and build your company and product on your abilities and skill. I don't doubt your ability or skill. from what you have posted you seem to be an expert at what you do as well. I'm just saying I think if your great then you will do well by staying positive and building on what you do.....I'm new here so what do i know

Raymoni, I don't think Martin really wants our business advice. His issues with Jake are obviously personal and as you and I both know that can cost you a lot of money in business. And someone else's behavior is never an excuse for my own no matter how many times I tell myself it is. If you want more history on this one, read the "Yet another cylinder 1 996 misfire". Now obviously this is not an ideal customer, borderline nightmare actually. But you gain a lot of insight into Martin's character by the way he is constantly attacking, especially when he's not sure of himself. It is pretty typical of when someone has a large ego but is very insecure. All of his reactions are emotional instead of logical and that's why it comes across as being "all over the place." That's just my opinion though. I'd be curious on your take.

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I think your right, and it does cost one a lot of money in business. personally i can be a bit of an ***hole (or so my wife tells me) but in business you just don't have that option. You have to be a diplomat, kiss butt and take a lot of crap. As a business owner I have to represent my brand, and I want it too leave a good impression with my prospective customers and actual customers. Positive in is positive out. Customers don't want to hear negativity PERIOD. They want to hear why they should hire YOU, and they want POSITIVE reasons as to why. Ive had competitors knock me. Im in a very competitive field. Yeah my first reaction is to get mad and go off, but then I take a breath and explain/show why MY customers say otherwise, why MY work is spectacular, share my expertise and give a 100 guarantee. I explain to a customer why I want to earn there business and want to make them part of my customer family. A lot more effective then slinging mud. I also take it one step further...I tell my prospective customers even if you don't choose me I appreciate the opportunity and if you have any questions regarding a purchase within someone else or run into problems Im here to help you out! positive goes along way! Business is business and never take it personally

Well said.

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You persuaded me and I treasure your good advise. Believe me it's not all about promoting my business, I also make my money outside of engine rebuilds. If I don't do it tomorrow I will be ok. If I wasn't a vendor here on rl I'd also pinpoint it the same way as a private guy. Doesn't matter if it's about engines or anything else. Many, many times when I read his crap I resist the temptation to reply, other times when I see it too many times I reply. I've told him many times he does a great job and he doesn't need to promote himself this way. I've been a racer for 20+ years and I tend to loose my temper when someone gets under my skin. That's who I am, I cannot do anything about it. One thing about me though, I always tell how it is, no unnecessary bs, I'm a straight up person. Years of track racing also made me a tough guy who doesn't fool around.

But if people did not respond to negativity more than positivity, Donald Trump would not be our republican nominee.

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Exactly! Unfortunately, the advise that you have to take a lot of crap from people, be a diplomat and kiss butt as a business owner is very good and true. It especially works here in US. But as a Polish guy I'm a little different, I cannot do either one of those things. Maybe I loose business by being this way but I'm not as determined to make money. It's a good advise but not for me. I could never be a diplomat or kiss *** for money, that's just not me. Maybe I'm being stupid not taking this advise and possibly loosing business but I'd rather be myself. If someone will choose my services great, if they won't that's fine too!

Maybe run for VP with The Donald? Frankly, it seems that both of you guys know your stuff. I don't hire a mechanic to be my best buddy. I hire him because he knows his stuff.

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This thread seemed to have gotten a bit derailed, but to the OP, rollers usually sell for @$5K all day long these days so figure that into your plans on which way to go..

I paid a hooker money to kiss my *** once in Bangkok. I spent $3.00 on that hoe and it was worth every penny...I just hope it wasn't a dude

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It's not about kissing ***. It's about accepting people for who they are. Live and let live. There are 7 billion people in the world. Not all of them are going to approach things the same way you do. If Jake truly were screwing people, he wouldn't have so many happy, loyal customers on this board. Lord knows Rennlister's aren't afraid to speak out when they feel they were wronged. And you've got good people giving you good advice on how to not shoot yourself in the foot. It may be a cultural difference between doing business in Poland vs here. But most of the polish people I've met have been pretty cool people and were easy to do business with. Part of growing up is knowing when to beat your drum and when to sit back and listen to others to see if you might learn something. We just all tend to get there on our own time frame. And as for Trump, just because we elect him President, doesn't make him any less of a self serving jackass.

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I'm glad I wasn't trying to change who you are. believe me I am a huge a**hole in my everyday life, but for me my business is a separate entity and i am its representative. You want to take your anger out on those who give you a hard time? Success is the best revenge! I don't want to see your business fail..if your as good as you say you are (and I have no doubt) then your success benefits us all. Competition is good and a great Porsche engine technician even more rare!

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LOL my wife is from Poland...stubborn, stubborn people I completely understand where your coming from, but believe me it is easier in the end. less stress, less anger, and more business! oh, and one more thing "take a lot of crap from people, be a diplomat and kiss butt as a business owner".. you see that as loss and i see it as a win, because at the end of the day I walk away with the deposit in my hand, not my competitor. I see it as doing whatever it takes to win. Its all perspective

I see a lot of BS being thrown around here. I don't know one business owner who doesn't slam a competitor at times. Thats life. We're talking engine rebuilding not brain surgery. Both of these businesses being discussed do good work. If they want to get into poopy pants fights in public I'm all for it and has no bearing(pardon the pun)on who I would hire to rebuild my engine - Business owners always trash other companies and if you disagree maybe you should be looking at your groin area to see if your ***** are still in tact. Location/logistics experience and timeline/price determine who gets my business. So lets cut the girly cheerleader crap

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+996 Name-calling, hair-pulling, blah, blah, blah. Until somebody gets indicted, it's just business.

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You will alienate a whole lot more people from your business by going down this path, than you will by taking the higher road. That being said, I'm just trying to help the angry one become a productive member of the forum. I mean surely he could add more value if he wasn't flipping out all the time. Especially if he's as knowledgable as everyone says he is.

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Agreed ... I didn't mean say that it's how I do business, or how I like to see business done, just that it's nothing out of the ordinary.

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Agreed.

The way I see it is both don't really conform to the "normal" corporate way of doing things and both of them can easily get away with it since good m96 engine builders aren't plentiful here in the states. I personally think it's refreshing and glad they both aren't assimiliated into the Borg like many. Jake has also admitted this quite a few times as well that he's not a people person. However I believe he's come around to it more than when he first started. I think quite a few of us only dream we can truly be ourselves and be successful at the same time. Not many these days can get away with it.

"Businesses always bash competitors"? For the record: No. Low class businesses bash competitors. I've never thrown a competitor in my field under the bus. More than a few of them have not followed the same path. I arrived in my current location with zero work, where my competitor had been in business for 12 years. Still throws me under the bus. And I have 75% of the market. Quality and success are qualitatively successful.

For the record: I have not once, not ever chased MB , or anyone else around, making posts about him/ them. He has done this to me with every single opportunity that he has been given. Don't believe me? Use the search function to see. Also, Under no circumstance will I allow someone to state incorrect information about my program, or what we have built without countering them. I do not care if this is the "normal" or "corporate" way of doing things. I also do not care if if someone feels that I am incorrect for doing this. This thread is a classic, where Martin goes to my Facebook page, sees a bunch of stuff, doesn't take time to comprehend it, then starts posting inaccuracies with descriptions and photos that aren't even related to the topic at hand. Now, the definition of "high road" is different for everyone... I feel that I have taken the high road, and will continue to. Why? Because I do not seek out the mistakes of MB, his statements, or his photos, even when provoked. I have not once, not ever taken the offensive with him, or anyone else. Since the best offense, is a good defense, I will continue to defend what I have created, like any person born with a spine would do.

^^Well said - And to all you female cheerleaders lacking *****, this is how you do it

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Bet you been to Babyland General, right? It's okay if you don't want to admit it Jake, but the fact is, Xavier Roberts didn't let the critics or the circumstances of building a great product and business stop him from fulfilling his dreams. I'm sure at some point he was laughin' all the way to the bank! Cheers!

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Taking the high road is defending baseless allegations with facts while not attacking the obvious weaknesses and lack of character of the person attacking you. Cheers for having the discipline to do it because I don't think I would have.

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Thats funny.. When my wife Land Speed Raced her 996 (she holds 5 records today) she wore a T shirt under her suit that said "If I had *****, they'd be bigger than yours"... Guys hated it, their wives loved it. My Mom was born at the original Babyland, which was Dr. Neal's office during WWII, then was used by Xavier from the 70s through just a few years ago. The new location is just across the street from the Flat 6 facility. My mom also babysat Xavier, and his family was so poor that the kids had no shoes on their feet. She wasn't paid anything, since they were all neighbors. I remember Xavier's mom (Eula) buying a used dinette set from my mom and dad and having to pay 10 bucks a week for it till it was paid off, and it only cost 60.00. This small town has certainly spawned a few globally known businesses, and products... But most people have n idea what we are doing, or that my shop even exists, though I grew up on the property, and have been here building engines since 1992 or customers. That said, I honestly never started this business for it to become what it has today. I started this place because I wanted to do things my way, and because I never wanted to have a "Job" where I worked for someone else. I focused on building the best, and doing it with a twist, then everything else just happened around that. I never even realized it until a few months ago, to be quite honest. Some days I am disappointed with what it has grown int, and most people would think I am crazy for saying that. I have to constantly turn work away, and limit what we do, simply so every job can retain the personal touch that it should. This is why we don't hire more people, and try to build every engine, for every person that calls the phone number... Its simply not what I created this place to be. Thats what everyone else wants, but what they don't realize, is the fact that they are going about it in a backward way. If they simply focused on what truly mattered, the rest would come to them with no effort at all, other than prayer, and effort, with a twist of integrity, and doing the right thing, even when no one is looking. Focusing on the right thing has left me with no need to advertise, a loyal customer base, and a debt free business. Most people that shoot for that will never get there; because, the goals they set and the "business plan" is too focused on the business, and not what they have produced. On the one occasion when I was asked for a "business plan" I said "Make money, have fun, please those who believe in me, and do what I want to do". They asked if I had a formal plan, and I told them no, and at that point I walked out of the room. I haven't asked anyone, for anything since. I never will again. I started building engines in an old chicken house, with a dirt floor. It had no power, and needed an extension cord with an old broken lamp thrown over a rafter so I could see what I was doing. I have gone from that, to where I am now, with zero assistance from anyone, or any bank. Do you really believe I give a damn about what anyone thinks, or says? Today I am servicing a vehicle, with an engine that I built 20 years ago fitted to it. The same owner has had the car al;l those years, and the engine hasn't been torn into at all. Thats how I measure success; when you can build something that lasts that long; but moreover, when you can retain the buyers trust, and business for that long. Of course, I would;t let anyone else in the shop touch my engine, and I'll be the only pair of hands that touches it. Thats the way it was 20 years ago, because it was just me here, and no one else..

^^Your wife's tee shirt may cause some confusion in North Carolina

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I think it's your military instinct coming through. In other words, the best way to silent a bully is to punch him in the face. I'm also from a military family and we don't like our country or family being walked on like a door mat and so in some ways, we do care what people say, but the circumstances of their ill-informed words don't determine our attitudes. My father (Navy man), would say that when these morons back home spew their poison, it reminds us that we all fought and died to give them that freedom. But nothing hits lower than when someone, who has never seen their brothers fall in battle, tear down our country's efforts to defend our nation. We used to come up to Cleveland all the time as a kid and remember when Roberts started the "little people" (before Cabbage Patch Kids) business and we loved the mountain crafts that people up there would create. I just brought my girls to see the new Babyland General hospital and maybe next time I'll come by to meet you if that's ok. Would be an honor. We Georgians still like to reach out and help our neighbors. I wish more of the country would turn away from it's selfishness and remember we're all brothers and sisters. But too many people today are "gaming the system" and it's sometimes hard to know the wolf in sheep's clothing from the ones that really need help. My grandfather (who served in WWII) once told me, "Son, your generation worries about the wrong things. You're worried about losing your satellite TV, but we worried about if we would have food to eat. We survived many days during the depression on potatoes and cabbage. And, we were thankful to have it because people were staving back then." I never forgot that advice. Cheers!

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sooooooo who exactly are the female cheerleaders?

Hope everyone got their punches in. Time to move on....