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YOUR RESEARCHMy roller
Reported or suspected cause
workplace chemical exposure
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Leading evidence: 'workplace chemical exposure' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'workplace chemical exposure' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check $50...lesson learned' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I also wisely send the heads out to a specialist machine shop to be checked, machined and rebuilt.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I almost fell over when I checked the price of new parts!
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Often the cleanest one has been steam cleaned by vaporized coolant leaking in.
Combined work: Replace bolts + Use copper based anti-seize
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I replaced the the bolts with new ones and used copper based anti-seize... I'm getting ready to replace the manifolds with some Agency Power headers, so we'll see how well it worked (I've only driven about 2k miles since the engine work so it won't be a problem I'm sure).
Combined work: Replace bolts + Use copper based anti-seize
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I replaced the the bolts with new ones and used copper based anti-seize... I'm getting ready to replace the manifolds with some Agency Power headers, so we'll see how well it worked (I've only driven about 2k miles since the engine work so it won't be a problem I'm sure).
Install engine or replacement or reman all engines
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
That is the "large" single row IMSB used on all m96/m97 engines from Porsche from 06 up, whether from the factory installed engine or replacement or reman All engines from 06 on have this bearing.
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Suspected cause
We all know that M96 engines don't blow head gaskets, so if the PO just replaced the head gasket there is a 99% chance the problem was (and still is ) really a cracked head.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
111 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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2 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Outcome without a verified action link
I bought a case online and it worked out to about $6 or $7 each.
I started working on my 99 I bought as a roller. Engine had a bad knock and I suspected a bad connecting rod bearing. Drained the oil and Swirled a magnet around in it then cut open the filter. I�m seeing steel as well as obvious bearing material in the inside pleats of the filter as well as steel. Some of the particles �danced� as I ran the magnet over the pleats. Outside pleats look clean, so it appears the filter was doing its job. Also lots of glitter in the bottom of the canister.
Next I�ll drop the sump plate. To be continued...
Dropped the sump plate today and discovered major badness inside.
Major carnage inside
One piece of aluminum, thin like foil, the rest steel.
Looking up, engine looks surprisingly clean.
Swirl pots have a fine paste mix inside. Note bits of bearing material on the inlet screen.
Tomorrow I’ll start to drop the engine. I was hoping to be able to rebuild if the crank was good, but after seeing those steel slivers I’m sure the crank must be trashed.
Have the engine out and on the stand. Clutch and DMF are in good shape. Some greasy paste stuff around the IMSB, but RMS looks good. Curious.
Note bank 2 head is noticeably cleaner than bank 1. PO said he replaced a blown head gasket before the engine failure. Not sure that was the case or if the head cracked and was replaced. There was evidence of milkshake in the coolant reservoir, although the coolant in the engine was clean. It wasn�t cleaned out very well.
Engine after flywheel removal
Grime around IMSB...normal??
Getting the engine on the stand was a project in itself!
Your scissor lift arrangement looks awesome. Did you modify your garage floor yourself for the install? What brand and model # lift is that, I would love to duplicate your set up if the work and cost wasn't to outrageous...
Thanks kukaepe- I imported the lift from China and did the install myself. Here is a link to the model.
http://www.dy-autoequip.com/html/201...s_0724/34.html
there are similar models available in the USA, but for me it was more cost effective to import it myself, plus I had some experience importing goods from overseas at my job, so I was comfortable doing that. Others may have some concerns wiring cash to China with a certain amount of faith that the company on the other end will honor their side of the bargain, but it was all handled professionally.
Installation was hard work since it involves cutting the existing concrete floor, digging 2 pits about 5 feet long x 2 feet wide x 24 inches deep. Then of course, framing and pouring concrete base 6 inches thick and walls 4 inches. Basically you need a strong back and a weak mind.
Then moving the lifts into the pits is a challenge in itself, these things are heavy! I used the same engine hoist in the pics to maneuver them into position.
Overall, it was one of the best things I ever did in my garage, and surprising how many non-automotive applications they can be used for. Think temporary work bench, saw horses, out feed table for table saw, putting anything heavy into pickup trucks, trailers, etc.
Making some progress on the engine tear down, in my quest to find the damage. Not seeing anything unusual under the cam covers.
Then removed the heads.
Nothing unusual in bank 1.
Can’t say the same for bank 2. Note unusual pattern in cyl 6. No signs of impact damage, but piston 6 also shows unusual pattern.
Note piston 6. Also note remnants of milkshake. Didn’t see this in bank 1.
That pattern is the tightest area in the combustion chamber. I bet there is a bad rod bearing on #6 which has allowed the piston to move higher and touch that area and clean it off.
Well, the news just gets worse. I finally got down to the crank, to find my worst fears come true. #6 con rod bearing totally missing and crank trashed.
#6 cyl and piston skirt scored.
Note heat damage on rod and cap. This engine must have run for some time in this condition.
What at to do what to do next? Used engine? LS swap? Total rebuild?
You seem competent, full documented rebuild gets my vote!
Cylinder relining, new bearings, new rods and pistons, maybe a 3.8 or 4.0! Of course this is all easier and cheaper said than done
Cosmo nailed it a few posts above. So the debris in the sump are the rod bearing shells? What was the history of the car again? Amazing the engine was still running with no rod bearing on #6.
i bought the car as a roller at a good price, only 58k miles, been a southern car all its life and never wrecked. Car is excellent inside and out and came with 2 sets of wheels and tires. PO told me it blew a head gasket, he had it repaired and was running normally. He decided to sell it, and a prospective buyer took it for a test drive and came back with a knock. Durametric showed About 800 ignitions in range 1 in the last hour of its life, and none inrange 2. Leakdown numbers were excellent all in the 3-5% range. Compression was also excellent all except #6.
Teardown showed evidence of milkshake that was not thoroughly cleaned out. All else as pictured in this thread, no sign of d-chunk and ironically IMSB is excellent. I think it is a classic case of AOS failure, milkshake, insufficient lubrication to cylinders and bearings, then bore scoring and ultimately rod bearing failure.
Sounds like the intermix condition had damaged the bearing the everything started to go down hill from there. The bottom end is junk for sure. Hopefully the heads are still good (no cracks).
So after researching the replacement short blocks available from Porsche, I’m leaning this way.
Dealer quoted me $6004 plus $2700 core charge! If I bring the core in at time of order, then don’t have to pay it.
Regarding the core quality: basically as long as parts are installed and nothing obvious like a hole in the block, etc, then it will be an acceptable core.
i was up front and told him the engine has lost a con rod bearing and crank was damaged. He said no problem, they replace the crank anyway!
Update: dropped the heads off at Hoffman Automotive Machine today. They are about 150 miles from my house, so rather than ship to them, I decided to drop them off personally. Met Len and Matt, great, totally honest guys and absolutely straight shooters.
They will evaluate them and if determined to be acceptable, refurbish for use. My thought is if the heads are good, I’m likely to buy a short block from Porsche and build the engine.
If they are determined to be not ok, then I have bad heads and a bad bottom end, therefore nothing to work with. The only option at that point is to look for a good used complete engine.
They will be fine, Ken will probably up-sale you some new springs and guides . He can even fix a crack if need be, and they will be nice and fresh when you get them back. I think you can go ahead with your bottom end plans, Hamheads will fix you up.
I think the worse case scenario is a head is cracked, if so, there is an easy crack $450 and a hard crack $750, then a good valve job and ultrasonic clean. Last heads I sent to him had the hard crack, went all out for the new springs and guides, and nothing fancy mild port and flow work on the bowl area, heads trued ect ect , all in $2.3k. That was a few years ago but should not be too far off.
We all know that M96 engines don't blow head gaskets, so if the PO just replaced the head gasket there is a 99% chance the problem was (and still is ) really a cracked head. Several shop that I know can fix the cracked heads, Ken is probably the best.
Hoffman called today with the good news that my heads passed the pressure test and crack inspection. Valves and guides are in excellent shape. He is machining the faces, installing 5 helicoils in exhaust mounting threads that are buggered up, machining the exhaust mounting faces, ultrasonic cleaning and bead blasting external surfaces, installing new springs and seals. His words, “heads will be like new”. Should be ready in a week.
Meanwhile, I took this good news and went ahead and ordered the new short block from my local dealer. None available in the Atlanta warehouse, so it will be coming from Germany, in about 2 weeks.
So, I have a couple of weeks to clean the intermix out of the coolant tubes and radiators...
Look out for hoses that feel oily, depending on how long the intermix sat in there , it can get saturated into the hose rubber , when they get like that they are junk!!
Yes, this is good advise. Also run a couple gal of brake clean through as it will adsorb oil and will save any hoses that are just moderately saturated with oil.
I took off the front bumper cover today and removed the radiators. The amount of leaves and junk in the ducts was unbelievable.
This is what fell out of the left side duct. Right side was similar.
This junk was stuck to the fins. Obviously the previous order wasn’t into preventive maintenance.
I picked up the heads today from Hoffman, a beautiful job, and great guys, too!
Wonderfully clean combustion chambers and deck machining.
New valve springs
Exhaust ports. Note 5 weld repairs with helicoils in the manifold mounting holes.
Nice shot of the clean inlet port and valves.
Close up of exhaust port showing weld repair/helicoils.
Those heads look awesome! I don�t understand why he would use heli-coils if he was doing �weld repairs� of the exhaust bolt holes though... Why not just re-drill and tap them?
Now is a good time to measure and fit SS studs on the exhaust manifold, installed with a little bit of blue locktite. Never have to worry about those exhaust manifold bolts ever again.
Aluminum threaded heads and steel bolts don't play nice. A steel helicoil in the head and you can play stud/bolt removal install different headers etc. and not lose the hole again. Honestly, these probably should've had threaded inserts from the factory given the cost of a Porsche. Removing steel bolts from aluminum heads that have seen that much heat almost always causes threads to break. The very different heat transfer and thermal expansion properties of the two metals destroy the threads.
Len Hoffman told me it was important to use a copper based anti-seize compound for all threads (helicoils or not) in aluminum heads, including spark plug threads.
Ahhhhh... now I get it. It's strange, when I did all the work on my engine last year, the exhaust manifold bolts were some of the easiest to remove - and the manifolds/flanges themselves were super rusted/corroded. I replaced the the bolts with new ones and used copper based anti-seize... I'm getting ready to replace the manifolds with some Agency Power headers, so we'll see how well it worked (I've only driven about 2k miles since the engine work so it won't be a problem I'm sure). If I remember correctly, the torque value is not very high on the exhaust manifold bolts (around 30 ft.lbs from memory) - I'd bet that they get get over torqued more often than not.
Copper based anti seize does sound like a good idea. Torque is usually pretty low on exhaust manifolds. The gasket is designed to seal as its crushed at optimal torque. Overtorquing any fastener is a bad idea. It's not a case of a little more will do like seasoning your food. Once fasteners exceed their yield strength it's going to be bad. A lot of modern fastener specs are set so the fastener yields and is never reused.
I'm going to have to remember to get some copper based thread sealer. Anything that can last given the heat will help.
I look forward to following along with the rebuild too!
Short block arrived today, 12 days delivery from Germany!
while waiting, I cleaned out the coolant system, to remove the traces of intermix that remained. This was by far the hardest job so far. Used a variety of techniques, had the radiators cleaned and pressure tested by a local radiator shop. Tank, tubes, lines and hoses flushed with a mix of hot water, dawn dish detergent, and shout. Then, for the tubes and hoses, followed by snaking cloths through to verify cleanliness.
still need to reinstall the rads, etc. I�ll do this before starting the engine assembly. It will also give me some time to order other items needed, gaskets, seals,bolts, etc.
Short block on the stand. Note the included knock sensors and temp sensor.
Not sure of the significance of the �X� and the �+� on the Pistons. Bores look new, no sign of sleeves.
Bonus, wasn�t expecting it to come with a new water pump.
Can one of you experts tell me which IMSB this is?
Wrapped up for safe keeping for now.
That is the "large" single row IMSB used on all m96/m97 engines from Porsche from 06 up, whether from the factory installed engine or replacement or reman All engines from 06 on have this bearing. And yes it is normally not replaceable without splitting the case, but ECS has a boring tool and a custom larger flange to access the bearing, but it's merits are controversial .
It�s been awhile since I updated. I had to go out of town for a couple of weeks due to a death in the family, and placed several parts orders needed before I started the engine assembly. So most parts are in now, and the �Porsche Paranoia� has struck, while cleaning and sorting parts. I found two cracked ignition coils, and interestingly discovered the engine had a mix of old style 996xxxx part numbers and newer 997xxxx part numbers. Not sure if that is an issue, but it just seems wrong to me, so I decided to order all new ones. I�ll toss the old ones and keep the newer ones as spares.
I also decided to upgrade to the LN full flow oil filter, mag drain plug, and low temp thermostat.
Hairline crack
Heads on!
Spin on oil filter from LN
Magnetic drain plug and LT t�stat
Plug installed
Great work so far, very exciting!
Interesting use of E-torx and torx bolts/screws (specifically on the oil pan and the water pump) compared to regular bolts that are usually there.
I think the X & + have to do with ensuring the pistons are aligned properly for the thrust face. Something about the weight balance needing to be in the right spot to prevent excessive force on the wall of the cylinder? Maybe one of the jedis can chime in.
Great thread & good luck on the remainder of your build.
The X is the diameter group and the + is the weight group.
Some manufactures make pistons with very small diameter oversize to allow for select fit ( or to compensate for wear)of cylinder clearances of 0.0005 increments ie. group A, B,C,D,E. These pistons only come in one standard size group.X.
The + indicates weight group. All the pistons made are weighed and if 544-547g they go into the - group, and if 547-550g they go into the + group. This is a means of balancing to keep all pistons within 3g.
NAPA Gold is what the doctor (LN) orders for the LN Engineering full-flow oil filter adapter. Due to flow characteristics (full-flow at all times) they researched and found this filter is robust enough to take the punishment and provide adequate filtering (that's just what I have read).
Gold! Haha
Edit: Napa Gold 1042 is actually a WIX 51042
Y'all lucky you can get them from Napa, I have to buy them in Australia and they cost me $25 each!!
Correct, I can get them here from WIX for around $10 each but the postage is still expensive even within Australia. Might just have to buy a few at once. Anyway haha </rant>
Porschetech- thanks for that info. I really appreciate the depth of you knowledge.
Wyovino- I thought about that, but to me it seems unnecessarily redundant. This engine has the large IMSB which has a very low failure rate, the drain plug should trap the big chunks, and the filter doesn’t allow any oil bypass, therefore steel particles will be trapped in the filter that the drain plug didn’t trap. Not sure what additional protection the filter mag would offer. I’m open to opinions, though, and it’s an easy add.
Chicago- thanks for the comment, I’m fortunate to have an 11’ ceiling in the garage. The lift was the best thing I ever put in, installation was a bi**h though.
Is that a weld repair at the threaded hole above the filter? Maybe this is the "reman" part? Not that it's any issue, just might be the part of the block that was remanufactured?
It is a weld repair, but it’s not in the block, it’s in the head. The exhaust manifold mounting threads in my heads were stripped in 5 locations. Hoffman did an expert repair and installed helicoils for me.
Coopduc: Build is looking great! I bet you can wait to get everything put back together and start driving!!! Don't rush it - Take your time, you're almost there
"If I remember correctly, the torque value is not very high on the
exhaust manifold
bolts (around 30 ft.lbs from memory) - I'd bet that they get get over torqued more often than not."
So, I just ran into ^^This^^ while perusing this thread... Seeing as how I just changed out my headers, I have to correct the above information. The actual torque value for the exhaust manifold bolts is 17 ft lbs (23 NM). Even less than I originally "remembered"... Even more likely that many folks over tighten them...
Dporto - thanks for the compliment. It’s funny but I’m a little bit sad that I turned the corner from disassembly to assembly. In some weird way, I don’t want it to end. If I put my mind to it, I’m sure I could have the car running in about 2 weeks. But in reality it will be more than 2 months. I’m enjoying the process and some days just put one or two parts on, or just study the next step without actually doing anything.
If all goes well, after it’s running I may start researching an improvement project to do over the winter.
This is why I have 5 project cars currently. Yes I will make a little on each one which will fund my racing aspirations for the year but mainly these are my tinker toys. I just love to pull them apart and put them back together with a specific goal or outcome I'm trying to achieve with each one. My garage has become my happy place.
Same. I use 8mil and they are tough as skin. I've had some 9mil I liked but they were black. The colors let me see if my gloves are dirty when working on the interior.
I always seem to start out each job with 5mil nitrile gloves, but as soon as I need to “feel” the threads of a bolt, I take them off and they stay off the rest of the job.
I was just diagnosed with bladder cancer. (and I’m recovering from surgery)
One cause is workplace chemical exposure.
I’m guessing it could be from my professional wrenching years ago, or my current DIY wrenching.
I’ve promised my wife I’ll try to use nitrile gloves more.
I only started using nitrile gloves about a year or so ago.
Friday the 13th strikes again. I decided to be proactive and send my fuel injectors out the be cleaned and tested prior to installation. I chose Whitchhunter Preformance, based on customer feedback. I packaged them up exactly per Whitchhunter’s instructions, clean, wrapped in paper towels, and in a zip lock bag. Put everything in a USPS flat rate box along with extra bubble wrap and the required paperwork. This afternoon I got a call from Whitchhunter, the box was delivered but no injectors were inside! Interestingly, the bubble wrap and paperwork was still there. They promised pictures of the box as received, but I don’t see any way to recover the injectors. Of course, I didn’t purchase the extra insurance. Lesson learned. I almost fell over when I checked the price of new parts! Even rebuilt ones are high without cores to return.
I "think" I have 3 extra sets -1 in my basement. I will check this weekend and see if I can put my hands on them, they are in different boxes in no particular order. I only need one extra set for an extra engine rebuild on a stand ,that I am half way finished, but in no particular hurry to finish.
most companies that ship the dodge common rail injectors do so unlabled. At 2-3k for remans, its tempting for a $15 per hour delivery driver. I suspect in this case its our substellar postal service just trashing a package.
Lack of updates indicates lack of progress. ☹️
I filed a claim with the USPS, they kindly sent me a check for $50...lesson learned. I was able to find replacements on eBay.
Regarding the engine build, for the last 4 weeks I�ve been waiting for misc small items to arrive. The most significant are 2 heat shields as shown in red in the pic. I noted they were not present when I disassembled the heads, but forgot to order earlier. Of course they were back ordered from Germany. Good news is they will be delivered next week. I don�t know if the original engine failure digested these parts or if some hack shop omitted them during a service. My guess is the latter, based on P.O. comments about the shop that did the original head swap.
Finally my parts arrived!
I thought these were heat shields, but Bentley calls them oil baffles.
Whatever, they were installed about 2 minutes after they arrived.
Next was the lifter housing and lifters.
Old chain pads, in foreground, were in bad shape, so I installed new ones. Not sure why the color difference, new ones are genuine Porsche parts.
Pre-assembled cams, timing chain, and solenoids.
Bank 1 Cams installed.
Timing chain sprocket torqued.
Bank1 buttoned up! I�ll do bank 2 tomorrow.
I�ve made great progress since my last post. Here you can see I�m in the final stage of engine assembly before it goes back in the car. All has gone smoothly until I try to install the engine support plate. There is an interference with an oil pump bolt that did not exist before. I�m trying to figure out if Porsche made a design change that affects this area and I can grind a relief cut into the plate to create clearance. Looks like it needs about 10-13mm half moon cut to clear. Here are some pics.
The problem is that the surface of the boss the bolt is on is the same plane as the plate, so clearance is needed to avoid bending the plate. I made a cardboard template to determine how large of a half moon is needed and found that only about 1/8� of material will remain in the area of the oval. I decided to combine the triangle and oval shapes into one trapezoid. This gives plenty of clearance.
I also found that Porsche made a design change to eliminate the oval and turn the triangle into a trapezoid.
problem solved.
Before
After
The change porsche made
The engine is in! Back in its rightful place. I consider this a major milestone.
Still have lots of things to hook up, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
And no day is complete without a little drama. While under the car I noticed a connector was not attached.it belongs in the top of the sensor just under the AOS. Not easy to access after everything is assembled.
After about 60 minutes of cussing and discussing I figured out a way. Everything re-assembled and the connector and sensor is barely visible, only the bolt head can be seen. Dodged a bullet for sure.
Today I added all the necessary fluids. Bled the clutch, added 9 quarts of Joe Gibbs BR 30 break in oil, used my new Airlift tool to add coolant, and put in 5 gallons of Shell V-Power. Then...the moment of truth!
I�m happy to say I no longer have a roller, it�s now a runner! A great sense of relief!
Hopefully this video works.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/flqly1uevk...%20PM.mov?dl=0
Jayson, the work I did was not particularly difficult, just “different” than a conventional engine, and with more parts. Before this project I had only built inline 4 cylinder engines with much less complexity, and only a handful of those.
This is my first Porsche and it does require some unique tools and attention to details, but if you have a technical mind and take your time to think things through, it is achievable. It is also important to understand your limitations. For instance, my crank was destroyed and cylinders/pistons had varying degrees of scoring. I could have sent the cases out to have nickies installed, new pistons, etc and would have had a better technical solution, but good used cranks are difficult to find, splitting the cases, installing pistons, connecting rods, bearings etc require additional knowledge and specifications that don’t seem to exist in any manual. I know that the FSI classes cover these details, but added expense and time that I was not willing to invest in. Therefore I decided to buy the Porsche short block from my local dealer, thereby avoiding all the unknowns and was a more cost effective solution. I also wisely send the heads out to a specialist machine shop to be checked, machined and rebuilt. I was basically an assembly and test technician.
Dan, my car has PSE and has an extra vacuum canister, solenoid valve and lines that go to each muffler. I didn�t like the original routing, so made a bracket for the canister and neatened up the line routing. You can see the canister here on the right side of the picture.
I'm happy to report the engine is running well, no issues, and importantly no CEL. I drove about 70 miles on the Blue Ridge Parkway, which fortunately there is an entrance about a mile from my house. This was a great pleasure due to the performance of the car and also because of the fact that I did the rebuild myself. More importantly, it accumulated enough variety in driving so it was ready for NC emissions inspection. I'm happy to say it passed! I'm now fully legal.
A few people have asked if I mind sharing the cost of this project. Fortunately I kept good records, but admit I was a bit apprehensive to learn the total. When I started the project, I was determined not to monitor costs along the way, but to buy whatever it took while at the same time not be frivolous.
So here is the summary, in USD, in case any of our international friends are reading this:
Car (roller): $5000
Short Block: $6424
Other parts: $3085
Mach. Shop: $1378
Total: $15,887
Could I have found a running car for the same price?: Absolutely
Could I have found a car with a brand new engine for this price?: NO Way
Satisfaction of doing it myself: Priceless!
