All that glitter is not gold...

My first post on the board and not a very positive one. I bought my -99 C4 in May, and haven�t really driven it all that much, the longest journey was the one home after I bought it, about 200km. Anyway, about a month ago during a little bit more sprited driving the engine went kaboom... Hard to explain exactly what happened but heard a loud noise, all lights on instrument cluster on and car stalls as I stops at the side. I first thought a belt or something went and took something with it but I could not see anything wrong on the outside. I did start the car once after and it started but it sounded not so healthy... I first thought, after seeing what you see in the pictures, that the IMS had gone, although I was told when I bought the car it had recently been changed, along with clutch etc. I have checked the IMS and it looks fine from the outside. If it isn�t the IMS, what then? I made one discovery, and that is all three chain tensioners are mounted in the wrong positions, not one marking on the tensioners matches the markings on the engine... I would assume this could lead to some bad things, especially when the car gets pushed a little harder? I have bought a used engine with warranty that I�m now preparing before it goes into the car, and haven�t opened up the original engine yet, but would like some thoughts on what could have happened to it.

Sorry to hear this. I'm sure others will chime in, but I would be looking at the seller. This is one example of why I, and some others here, prefer an unmolested car (meaning with original IMS) so that we know what we're starting with. I, like you, would have been impressed with the new IMS bearing at one point, but in hindsight I now understand that it is also a way an unscrupulous owner can unload a car that is about to self destruct. Not saying that's what happened here, but the question should be raised (at least in theory). Good luck!

Hi Tobbe, Goodness, that really sucks! Especially, since you bought a 996 that you thought was solid given the IMS and clutch replacement, but as many will say, that doesn't make your engine bullet proof either since there are many contributors that can cause catastrophic failure. Of course, IMS failure is the biggest. But I would be asking a lot of questions such as: What kind of IMS was replaced? OEM, LN retro, etc. Was there prior damage that prompted the IMS replacement? Did the shop conduct a pre-analysis to justify the replacement? Is there a record of their findings? Did they cleanse the engine of any and all containments before replacing the IMS. Did the shop warranty the repair? I'm sure others will chime in with more helpful comments, but IMHO, the only non-OEM IMS that I would consider the most proven and durable is Jake Raby's "IMS solution" installed by a certified IMS Solution shop. Hope you get your car back up and running soon! Cheers!!!

interesting to know what caused the failure. I have a 99 as well and this YM comes with double row bearings.

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Neto, the OP's 1999 model 996 had the IMS and clutch replaced just before his purchase.

Sorry to hear of the mess. However you seem to be very capable in the DIY area and are already on the way to replacing the motor. When you have the time I think we'd all love to know what you find in the engine that failed.

+1^^ I agree... we'd all appreciate you giving us photos and information on what cause the failure. Thanks!

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You can bet on that as all 3 have different tensions and lengths. Sorry to see your misfortune. My guess is the IMS paddle snapped due to the wrong tensioner and that caused the IMS to walk and destroy the IMSB real fast.

Let me say first off I am sorry for your troubles. I have the 99 with double ims bearing. A tad late for you now, but I will not change my double race bearing for a single race of any description. I read that those replaced can and do need replacing in about 50,000 miles or less. I have 84000 on mine. I check the oil filter every 5000 miles when I change oil and mine is clear of any particles of any description. The percentage of a double bearing letting out on you is something like below half a percent. I will take that chance rather than lower my chance by putting a single row in place of the original double row and placing the car engine into the 10% bracket along with the majority of 996 cars. BTW my car is a life time keeper for me. To hell with turbos just to sell again for more than was paid for. Who the hell needs a faster car on the roads today than a 99 C2 Carrera. On the track MAYBE. Putting more power under these wheels on our roads today is getting the car ready for the L A Dismantlers in the very near future. OK that's me of my soap box.

The seller/repair shop that put the tensioners in the wrong position owe you an engine. Next on the agenda is -- proving it in a court. Because that is where you will wind up. Sorry to hear it didn't go well. The past is the past, but you are entitled to just compensation for someone else's lack of professionalism.

Sorry Tobbe. It's an awful feeling to have your engine implode. Good luck with the new one. Please keep us posted.

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You're forcing me to consider getting a hardtop and give up on my coupe fetish. And you're right about horsepower and faster car on roads today. Yesterday I was doing seventy in a school zone and I thought to myself...who needs more power I'm already in enough trouble.

Thanks for the support. Fortunately when I bought the car I sat aside some money for repair and maintanance, didn�t think I would need it so quickly though considering that so much was done to the car, IMS, RMS, AOS, clutch... The seller doesn�t respond to communication anymore so I don�t know what the status of the old IMS was before it got changed(should obviously have asked that before I bought the car), if it already had started failing or not. I was considering legal action at first when I thought the seller had lied about what was done to the car, but don�t think you can sue somebody because they are incompetent(he did the work on the car himself he said...) at least not here in Sweden. Anyway, I will tear down the old engine when I have finished putting the new one in the car and it�s working again. Right now I�m focusing on moving stuff from the old engine on to the new, changing stuff that looks worn or is known to be a weak spot(AOS, RMS, IMS..., waterpump, thermostat, water hoses, engine mounts, ignition coils etc), cleaning the engine compartment and things that got taken off when I took out the engine. Regarding the IMS and if to change, and if so what to change to, thats another question. Considering the engine got a dual bearing I would have been fine to leave it alone I think, but I can see that at least the IMS cover has been taken off at some point so I don�t know if the IMS has been changed or not, and if so, to what type of bearing. Because of this I�m changing the bearing for peace of mind. My choise of bearing landed on the EPS IMS Eternal fix with oil feed thru the oilpump. I have read everything I can find about the IMS, and I know the Flat6/LN engineering by many is considered "the best", but as I live in Sweden there are no licensed installers around and that seems to be a requirement with their products. Some pictures of a pretty clean engine bay(not quite finished yet) with Rennline adjustable engine mounts, and an engine that looks a lot nicer than the one taken out of the car.

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All good questions for his diagnosis. I didn't think Porsche had an OEM IMSB that could be used - you need to select an aftermarket replacement.

I have no idea on Swedish law, but here's my take on it, no matter where in western civilization you are. The seller has a duty to convey a product that is fit for a particular use(a car that will drive). Due to his direct intervention , the car was changed from a running, driving car, to one that was destined to fail due to the time bomb of installing the tensioners in the wrong location. I would think that this falls outside the bounds of reasonable care for anyone, pro or not. The only question left is what kind of documentation you got that transferred the car from him to you. If he put an 'as is, where is' (or something suitable) then you may be out of luck. I would surely let a judge/magistrate hear your plea, and let them decide based on the findings.

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Come on, John, you know this isn't true. You're not allowed within 500 yards of a school*. OP, I'm sorry to hear this story. The '99 has its own set of issues, but it can be a very reliable car; someone dooming the engine to failure by incorrectly installing parts during PM is just sickening. *Wait, that's Hurdi. Sorry, John.

Personally, I'd use the EPS roller bearing (which I did). However, if you don't install a new IMSB, you should at least consider the IMS Guardian plust the LN spin-on filter kit. The IMS guardian will alert you if there are magnetic particles in your oil, and the spin on filter kit will eliminate the oil bypass to the crank bearings and ensure that all oil coming from the pump gets filtered. (discussed in posts #211 & #212 here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ing-up-15.html ). Best of luck handling your unfortunate situation.

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Is there a law that states this?

I love it when I read about these stories. Not for the OP, his situation sucks for sure. I like reading the f@cknhg morons that instantly want to jump all over the seller and sue. The seller doesn't have to offer sh\t in the form of disclosure when selling vehicle. Absoutly zero information. It is up to the buyer to inspect a used vehicle, and it is up to the buyer to make the decision based on their inspection regardless of what they were or were not told. What if the seller bought the car from a guy, and he was the one that did the work? Do you go back two sellers ago and sue that guy? Or how about if the guy never ever changed his oil, and that right there was a soul reason the engine failed. Do y sue the seller for that? After all it was his direct intervention or lack there of that directly changed the car from a running, driving car, to a ticking time bomb.

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OP, this sucks for you. I agree, the seller appears to have acted in good faith; unfortunately, he also appears to be a sh*tty mechanic. For private-party sales, this isn't accurate. Unless the seller expressly indicates that he did something and warrants it, the warrantability/suitability language that protects consumers from businesses does not apply. If the ad reads "Car for sale...starts and runs," and the car started and ran, the seller has done nothing wrong. Individuals are exempt from the warrantability/suitability to ensure that people cannot be sued simply because the buyer comes down with a bad case of buyer's remorse. You do love to paint with those broad brushes, don't you? While it's absolutely true that a buyer is pretty much on his own (caveat emptor), you're not completely off the hook if you intentionally misrepresent something you are trying to sell. A seller may have no DUTY to disclose to a buyer...but if the seller decides to disclose written information that turns out to be false and/or deliberately misleading, buyer can certainly sue seller for misrepresenting the item being sold. It cracks me up how people go on and on about how disgusted they are by frivolous lawsuits...until they feel wronged. As long as it's someone else, it's frivolous and stupid; when it happens to YOU, it's an outrageous and unconscionable.

Sucks, you'll just have to make due with the e30 for now. But in all seriousness, that is unfortunate. I think if did it all over again, I'd just get a high mileage roller and then buy an engine from Flat6.

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I could provide you case law(mine) out of CA, and TX. New owner sued old seller for causing direct fault(not wear and tear) by their action. Maybe it's because I could prove it? Not sure, but I got my money twice. Now - Sweden, as I said, really don't know. Sorry(not really).

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Yes, I know. Please see above. Most use car sales in the US have that giant "as is where is, no warranty". If the sale is completed by cash, and that statement is missing - oh well, sucks to be the seller.

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I would love to see the case law, as seeing you are going to cite case law I assume you already know case law in civil suit doesn't bring automatic judgement. As far as writing or not writing "sold as is, where is" on your bill of sale, In affect, in a private party sale the presence or absence of this phase holds no tangable bearing on any implied warranty.

I think we can skip the legal discussion from now since it won�t lead to anything. As i said I live in Sweden, and according to my lawyer there is no case if we can�t prove he knew there was a fault with the car when he sold it, and that would be hard to prove, especially since it could be he didn�t know the tensioners was mounted in the wrong places. mrjonger: Yes, I could absolutely make due with the M3 if it wasn�t for the big engine I placed in front of it so I can�t get it out of the garage anymore

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I totally know you how you feel! But no one else seems to sympathize. The other day, I was complaining that I had to move the Porsche every time I wanted to ride one of my motorcycles or bicycles because I could only afford a home with 1.5 car garage. My fresh-out-of-undergrad colleague was incredulous. I challenged him to find another home within a 1000ft of the beach in my price range with a 2 car garage. He just shook his head like I was out of touch or something. It was the same head shake he gave me when I told him I hate getting out of the office past 7pm because the commute home gets a bit chilly with the top down. These people don't know my pain. Hopefully, Trump will lower my taxes when he's in office so I can afford a proper home. I kid I kid. I just couldn't help myself. It appears you are handling this issue remarkably well. I don't think I could go through what you did without seeming like a pompous ***.

Took some time to get the new engine in the car, mostly because of waiting for parts to arrive. Here is a list of the parts I changed: Ignition Coils and sparkplugs IMS bearing RMS seal AOS Waterpump and various hoses Clutch fork and various small parts to upgrade to 997-spec Clutch was almost new on the old engine so reused that Oil filler hose, cracked the old one when cleaning it... Rennline adjustable engine mounts X51 oil pan Various gaskets and bolts Obviously all fluids, including gearbox oil. The only real problem was the connectors shown on the last picture, it turns out that the engine I got had the old wire operated throttle, mine beeing a C4 had the electronic one and thus newer Motronic ECU... The solution to that was to move the 6-pin connector for the throttle, including three of the wires and pins from one of the big round connectors to the new engine, re using three of the wires from the old connectors, simple to do if just reading the wiring diagram thoroughly. Haven�t really tested the car fully after the swap, just a short distance in the garage since we now have snow here in Sweden, but it does feel good to have it running again

Very nice 911Tobbe!! Glad to hear you are back in business!

It seems to me the updated tensioners may not share the same markings as the old ones. I just did the RH one (the pain to get, under the AC compressor) and I remember being very concerned it didn't have the ring and even used a hex key instead of the big 32mm (or whatever it was) socket like the original. I did measure it when I took the old one out and it was virtually identical. Not sure if the others might have been updated now too?

ChicagoSpeed996: Thanks spud72: Theese are the old types, two marked with rings and one unmkarked, just all placed in the wrong places.

It has taken some time for me to get the time needed to dig in to the old engine, but now it�s going forward. I have now removed the heads and it seems my theory about the misplaced tensioners as the cause of the engine failure is correct. On cylinder number 5 you can clearly see that the piston has hit the valves, not super hard, but enough to bend the valves slightly so two of them are now stuck open. The metal particles in the oil comes from the cam cover for that cylinder where the chain has carved tracks in it from getting to loose, pictures of that will follow later. The question now is how much damage could this have caused to the rest of the engine? The shavings from the cam cover doesn�t seem to have travelled to the pressurized parts of the engine, nothing can be seen in the top of the cylinders or in the oil that came out of the lifters. The engine only ran for 10-20 seconds max after the failure. Thoughts on what to do?

The vital parts are the crankshaft,crankcase halves ,head and cam covers. Suggest you inspect those carefully before buying anything. You can buy a good used engine from Poland quite inexpensively .... We can discuss why but it may involve the name "Martin".

I don�t need a new engine, already have one installed in the car, just wondering what to do with the old engine, if it is worth to fix or not. I see three options: 1. Tear it down and keep it for spares. 2. Make the cheapest possible fix, just changing the bent valves and other obvious problems and keep it for spare just in case. 3. Make it a full restoration, new cylinders(Hartech?) etc. addressing all the weak spots known. This would be a long term project, but since I have a working engine in the car time isn�t an issue, allthough what if I never need to use the engine? I drive very few miles with the car so it could take many, many years before it is needed, if ever. It could be just dumping money in something that will just sit there. I don�t see myself changing a working engine for another one, makes no sense. Maybe if I go with an updated engine, larger capacity etc. but I really doesn�t need more power, I think it�s enough as it is.

Offer it up for sale. Somebody out there might consider it a good core worth rebuilding/upgrading. Contact Jake @ FSI and see if he is interested. Due to customer demand, I'm sure he is always looking for a good core. I don't know about you, but my wife simply would not tolerate having that for any length of time in the garage.