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YOUR RESEARCHIMS Bearing, what would you do?
Leading reported evidence
Replace i was told it
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I was told it was changed by the seller, but also possible it hadn't.
Leading evidence: 'Replace i was told it' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check those filters...best of luck and keep us posted' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
So I put a sealed one in, changed the oil a few times rapidly with cheap oil, and filled her up with full synthetic after.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Replaced with new IMSB (and other items while there, AOS, coolant tank, etc), changed oil and oil filter (#2).
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Suggestion
I ended up going with a sealed bearing instead of one of the open aftermarket ones, since I couldn't be sure every nook and cranny had been void of glitter by my cleaning job.
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Suggestion
Your bearing is clearing shedding metal in the engine and if you just replace the IMS bearing, it will only be a matter of time before the metal contaminated oil takes out the new replacement IMSB.
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Suggestion
I put one in my car as stock, when it’s time for a clutch change, I’ll take the seal off, but probably not put in the solution without going all the way with nickies, pistons, rods, etc.
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Some unpleasant news from my Indy today. See pictures below of glitter in and around the IMS bearing and engine case.
Recommendations on how to proceed?
The bearing
Where it lived for 20 years
Its an early build (03/98), 1999 C2 (throttle cable), tiptronic (so no overrevs), black on black. hollow spoke techno wheels, nice interior, 67K miles.
She was new to me in November and saw relatively mild (occasional revs up to 6K when warm) local weekend driving since purchase by me.
I've loved the time I've spent with the car, both driving and wrenching on it to do the easier maintenance jobs (struts, brake pads rotors, engine mounts, fuel/air/cabin/oil filters, belt, oil sump drop, speaker refresh).
Had Indy drop the engine and trans to do AOS, Coolant tank, some hoses, and replace the RMS and IMSB.... thats when we got these pics.
I intend to get some bore scoping done. I wish I could have gotten data on cam deviations and compression tests, but alas, that didn't happen.
I'll know more tomorrow but so far the material was described as fine and glittery. (as opposed to chunky I guess?)
I assume the two main options are:
1) replace it, go with a spin on oil filter and magnet and hope for the best or
2) find an honorable way to get rid of the car.
So, knowing full well that you guys will probably offer a WIDE range of opinions, I'd still be curious to read what you'd do/recommend.
(sadly, writing this felt a bit like writing a eulogy but I can't say I've given up yet. YET.)
Vertex FL rebuilt engines as I recall 10k exchange core.
For newbie and future readers oil filter inspection and cam timing deviation might have caught this before engine drop.
So are you 100% certain glitter source is your IMS bearing?
If so the question is how much glitter is inside your engine and where did it go?
With the engine out you can pull off the sump plate and cam covers and investigate, also scope the cylinders and do a leak down test. Probably worth investigating before getting too depressed about your motor.
Fair, should have mentioned I did do oil filter inspection.
It didn't seem significant to me at the time. Not being defensive, I just mean there were a few sparkles but could count them on one hand. (No pics to share of that.)
Prior owner said oil was recently changed though ... so there wasn't much mileage to show up in the filter either probably.
I dropped the sump and there was a fine fuzz of ferrous material on the magnetic drain plug.
Some plastic-y rubbery chunks on the oil pick up, pics attached below.
Welcome guesses as to that stuff too, but academic to the main discussion....
Does that stuff feel like RTV or harder plastic? if its RTV then someone went overboard with it on your sump or cam covers; if its hard plastic it looks like chain guide material
Sorry but it's to late for that motor...Factory short block would be the eco route.
That oil analysis was done when you got the car with fresh oil if I'm reading this right. New oil that showed wear of a 4000k oil sample?
Where's the IMSB? Apparently without seeing it, I presume it came out in chunks. What would I do?
1. Flush the engine as much as possible with kero or diesel fuel. Including the oil pump and inlet. If you can remove and clean the oil cooler exchanger do that.
2. Install a full flow oil filter kit and filter, no more bypass.
3. Put in a new IMSB.
4. New oil.
5. Run it for an hour. Change oil/filter.
6. Run it for another hour. Change oil/filter.
7. Hope for the best.
I KNOW of two engines that have suffered metal in the engine and were saved. One was a Boxster, one was a late 996. It's just a matter of how far gone it is.
Bill, you're killing me. But its a fair question. I honestly have no proof of how old the oil was. I was told it was changed by the seller, but also possible it hadn't.
No, I meant the bearing. I thought that might be the drain plug, but I guess that is the bearing. My advice stays the same. Clean, clean, clean, new full flow kit, oil and filter a few times and hope.
If you can afford it and have the skills, I�d do a full teardown and inspection at this point. If you decide to sell how close is this car to DFW? I have a truck, can get a trailer and think I might be up to it.
The chance is that all that metal will cause further problems in the future. IMO, replacing just the IMS bearing at this point is risky. Even if it does start and run after, it�s just kicking the can further down the road. IMO a full tear down and internal cleanup offers a much higher chance of success and longevity.
Personally, this bearing looks to be in Stage 3 according to Jake Raby in the PCA IMS videos. When I had the IMS solution installed last year, the certified installer was very clear that my car MUST pass pre-qualification which meant that my bearing could NOT be past Stage 1.
Your bearing is clearing shedding metal in the engine and if you just replace the IMS bearing, it will only be a matter of time before the metal contaminated oil takes out the new replacement IMSB. In my opinion, the RIGHT thing to do is open up the motor and cleanse it of ALL metal contamination BEFORE replacing it with a IMS retrofit.
That's the most honorable thing to do regardless if you keep it or sell it someone else.
Thanks Prof. and Anthony. I agree.
After looking at the PCA/Raby videos again and handling the bearing yesterday, my best estimate is that it was at an early Stage 3 or late Stage 2. There's definitely glitter and there's a little wobble/play in the bearing, signaling that a not insignificant amount of material has been lost. Did not have an oil leak at the flange. Haven't yet seen any FOD that was larger than sugar crystals/table salt/sand... not to discount the abrasive abilities of sand. Its been approximately 700 miles since the last oil change, when only a small amount of ferromagnetic fuzz was on the magnetic drain plug. Things went down hill quickly.
First off, I've decided I am going to keep the car no matter what. (Schwartzy will ride again.)
We'll drop the sump and the filter and see if anything looks different there, in quantity, color, or size.
If more of the same, we'll clean up everything we can, short of a full rebuild, put in a new bearing and hope for the best.
Will monitor oil and filters carefully going forward and see how it goes.
If engine fails, so be it. Its just a hobby car.
Rather than spend too much more money or time on rehabilitating the original stock 3.4L., I would prefer to look at my options for an engine upgrade if it were to fail.
At least then I'd be confident there were no other lurking issues with a 20 year old, 7 prior owners, motor.
I'm sure there are many options which would fit my bill, thanks for the suggestions. Maybe you'll get to help me decide between a 3.8L and 4.0L flat six in the future! Or maybe the 3.4L will give me years of driving joy yet to come.
Just so I understand here - you agree with these two assessments, but you're going to proceed with my given process?
Or, do I misunderstand, and you are going to disassemble the heads, cases, remove all the rotating, recip masses, and then put all the old parts back in, a new IMSB and run it?
Please clarify.
Buy a new factory shortblock from porsche for $7.5K. Have the heads full inspected, surfaced and cleaned, reinstall the short block with old heads and replace top end bits that might be needed. More like 12.5K than $20K ANd make sure they remove the seals from the IMS if Porsche still provides the engined with "permanent" IMS bearing seals.
Update: Found even better news. 996.1 brand new factory short blocks can be had from Sonnen Porsche for $5900.00
https://www.sonnenporscheoemparts.co...4l-996100951tx
It's the 996.2 (2002 and later) that are $7.5K.
x3.
I would clean what I could, put in a new sealed IMSB (like the originals) to keep particles out of the new bearing as long as possible, along with a non-bypass oil filter setup, and either buy a new short block, if you plan on doing the wrenching yourself, or get on a waiting list for a rebuild. The remaining partlcles will eventually kill the engine, but you may be lucky and get some miles out of it.
It's a crapshoot if you patch it up and drive, but I am a risk taker by nature.
I guess the cheap way out is Porsche shortblock plus IMS solution and heads rebuilt. It won�t be as good as a fully rebuilt LN equipped engine but it ought to be reliable with good service. If I did that for my Boxster I�d be at 3.4L and have something to abuse until it goes kaboom.
Then I could build something awesome for later as budget and time allow. I still worry with a Porsche shortblock they won�t stand by their product just like the original engine.
Honestly though, I wouldn�t restart this engine without disassembly and thorough cleaning. It�s not my engine though.
The new short block will come with the latest large dia single row bearing, non-replaceable without splitting the case. Maybe it’s just me, but I wouldn’t want to open up a new short block. I put one in my car as stock, when it’s time for a clutch change, I’ll take the seal off, but probably not put in the solution without going all the way with nickies, pistons, rods, etc. this would be significantly more expensive. It would suck to put in the solution only to have bores scored failure sometime down the road.
Of it comes with the large IMS bearing, yes pull the seal and rock on. Interesting idea overall.
P.S.
To the OP,
drop the pan straight and level onto the ground. Get some light and take lots of good photos of everything you see. Chances are someone around here will help you ID everything you find. Some people know what you will find in the pan and can help you figure out what it is and where it came from. If you start mucking around this diagnosis becomes even harder. But again, no one has to do anything I suggest.
Sorry for the suspense. Update overdue.
Below I�ll share some pics and a few observations.
Long story short, late February 2019 (67,500miles), dropped engine, pulled IMSB, pulled oil filter (#1) and found �glitter� all around bearing, as you know. Suspected bearing was in state of failure. Had slight wobble/play when manipulated.
Replaced with new IMSB (and other items while there, AOS, coolant tank, etc), changed oil and oil filter (#2). Ran it for a couple hours to flush. Changed Oil and Filter again (#3). Ran those from Feb to May for just about 1,500 miles. Changed oil and filter again (#4).
Here are some pics of the last change and the oil filters (1, 2, and 3).
Filter 1 was K&N (red). Some flecks of glitter.
Filter2 was either Mann or Mahle (yellow), paper filter
Filter. 3 was (green), also paper.
One interesting thing to note is I bought filter #3 from the P dealer and the black canister/filter housing part number has changed, as has the design.
I am not entirely sure that the new design incorporates a check valve anymore. It is slightly shorter than my last and the inside seems simpler.
Original 996.107.201.53.
New 996.107.201.54
Car seems to be running well.
No predictions on how long this engine will survive, but i think i know better what to look for in the oil filter now, and I will try for 5,000miles or 6 months whichever comes first for the next change.
I acknowledge that the safer course would have been a full rebuild/new short block, but I didn't want the cost outlay and the time cost of that option.
I've been daily driving it and taken a couple decent road trips with no incident.
Wish me luck. Just turned 70K miles.
But if the treatment doesn't work, i'll have options on how to proceed (fix vs find another example).
The mechanic dropped and cleaned it out during the change to filter #2.
I don't have pics, but more glitter was reported in there.
The best i have for you is that during the change to filter #4 (after about 1,500 miles) I did inspect the magnetic drain plug.
Some fine magnetic fuzz.
Was that a dual-row, and if so, what bearing did you end up replacing it with?
I went through the same ordeal last year. If your oil filter canister was good, no glitter should've made it past there and your internals should be absolutely fine. I ended up going with a sealed bearing instead of one of the open aftermarket ones, since I couldn't be sure every nook and cranny had been void of glitter by my cleaning job. So I put a sealed one in, changed the oil a few times rapidly with cheap oil, and filled her up with full synthetic after.
Just as a bode of confidence; my car has been absolutely fine for 10k km now. And I had the exact same failure, except my bearing got destructed a little more than yours. Asking about your bearing since I had to source my own off-the-shelf.
@soverystout
The short block you linked to is the X51 block (996-100-951tx). I can't seem to figure out whether that's a direct swap for the standard block (996-100-996tx) which costs about $1,000 more
https://www.sonnenporscheoemparts.co...4l-996100996tx
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
