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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHBore Scoring information video
Reported or suspected cause
rod angle, piston dwell time, and bore characteristics
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported cause
The reason the wear starts here is due to rod angle, piston dwell time, and bore characteristics.
Leading evidence: 'rod angle, piston dwell time, and bore characteristics' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'rod angle, piston dwell time, and bore characteristics' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Replace better pic' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Later in the series I use a 32.00 bore scope from Amazon to diagnose scored bores, and show you how to do it at home.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
BTW; water injection used by Turbo enthusiasts has this effect also.
Use marvel mystery oil in older carburetor applications
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
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0
Unsuccessful attempts
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
FYI - I too have used Marvel Mystery Oil in older carburetor applications.
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Suggestion
I'm currently running DT40 (and did the Driven break in oil before switching to DT40) and realize there are additives in this oil, but I've had good result with LiquiMoly products in my BMWs over the years and thinking about adding
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Suggestion
I have had their "builders" attend my classes, and the last one said that their boss told them to save the used oil from an engine before it was built, and put it back in the engine after it was assembled to help it break in faster, and so it would look "used".
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90 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Outcome without a verified action link
In the video, the cylinder in my hand is a turbo cylinder, which is not fixed, and is pressed into the removable water jacket of the turbo engine.
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/120x120/thumbs_up_sign_1f44d_d7926742e0f30ad623e8687dc745612cfc0de2b2.jpg
This is good information. I didn't realize that this problem was actually older than the IMS fiasco? Am I mistaken? Maybe it got over shadowed? Thank you for offering the free educational videos. I hope you'll continue to make many more of other topics.
Cylinder bore scoring was mode of failure #1. We have more experience with this failure than allthe others. Today it lands 90% of the cars at out facility...
This is fantastic. Love how it is explained so even a mechanical dummy like me can understand the process. Two questions: why aren�t M96/97 engine bores Nikasil plated? Cost?? And 2: how are the bores attached to the block? What�s holding them in place and what stops them from shifting with all the forces being applied from the crank and pistons?
In the case if the M96/97 engine the bores are integral to the block. They are cast as one piece. In the video, the cylinder in my hand is a turbo cylinder, which is not fixed, and is pressed into the removable water jacket of the turbo engine.
The M96/97 engines did not use Nikisil from the factory. Only the turbo and GT3 that were based from the Mezger engine design used these.
100% of all my engines, including M96/97 are built using Nikisil. Had the factory had the same mandates, we�d not even be talking about scored bores, and this video series would have never been required.
I've read the environmental requirements made the manufacturing process of Nikasil too costly, that's why you still can get it on the super high-end cars (GT2, GT3, and Turbo) and not lower cost models like the Carreras, Boxsters, and such. I could be mistaken.
Thanks guys. The next video gets a little more technical, and it's a lot longer. Its edited and ready to go next week :-)
Later in the series I use a 32.00 bore scope from Amazon to diagnose scored bores, and show you how to do it at home.
I think the best next series of videos should be titled "
So you bought a 996!, Now here is what you need to do to PROTECT it from the 30+ common failures.
" I would love to watch that video. I hope i have done most of the things needed already.
I truly hope that Jake Raby discusses all the major modes of failure that he has documented or at least the most common. 13 of the most common modes of failure are listed on the Flat 6 Innovations website, but I guess "Bore Scoring" video is the first of it's kind? Guess the best thing to do is at least subscribe to the channel in order for Raby to see there is much interest in the Youtube videos? I'm sure he could easily move them over to a PPV video-on-demand type service. Well, I'm just enjoying the freebies for now. I never realized the depth of this topic. Fascinating!
l am trying hard not to cover things that will end up controversial. If l end up in controversy, it�ll just **** me off, and l�ll end up erasing the whole channel. My tolerance for argument is pretty much zero these days, especially if the challenges are spun from people that don�t even own a tool box.
Ok, rant off...
l do plan to cover the most popular failures in the same manner as the cylinder scoring video. That will be only 3-4 failures/ issues.
If l covered all the failures, it would make the 996 look like a junk car, and it is not. The car is wonderful, the engine has issues- thats all.
Ultimately a video could be called �So you bought a 996, now here�s how you protect it from failure�.
That video would be 30 seconds long, showing the car being driven onto the truck, and the owner waving bye to it, then it being unloaded here at Flat 6, and going to the back of the engine reconstruction line.Thats the real way to protect it.
Seriously, l do plan a 996 video that you will appreciate as a review of the car. Those that like the 99 cars will love what l have to say.
Please show the best path to get to the cylinders.
Until I had an M96 apart and the �labschedier/windage tray/oil separator removed, I had a hard time understanding where the bore scope needed to go.
It's difficult to know the path to take when laying underneath the sump with the car on jack stands.
*
Looking forward to the rest of the series. Watched the first one. My daughter's 2013 Hyundai Elantra has bore scoring at less than 50K miles.....pisses me off. Ticks like crazy.
Regarding nickies...why are these (Porsche OEM and now the after market) proving to be resistant to sulfur in the fuel? Or is that (sulfur damaging the plating) an excuse for why the engine makers have gone to a cheaper route with alusil?
Time to get my car up on the lift and check out cylinder #6 with my borescope. I've heard of this issue. Will an oil analysis aid in the early detection of this condition? Looking forward to the next video. My limited understanding was this was related to a new style of oil dispersion?
Kyle
Nice intro. Hits a very wide audience to start, and jumps right in, and move logically in sequence.
I'm hoping there is a companion video sometime from the masters that does cover: "Best Practices to avoid the 5 most costly failures in the M96/97".
For airplane owners it would start with stuff like : "Do not descend from FL140 to surface at idle throttle in July". etc...
Edit:: for vintage ford tractor folks we have this:
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/a.../artint268.htm
(75 tips for your Ford tractor).
I have a 1949 8N ford tractor. It was my dad's, I built the engine at age 14 and it still holds 40 PSI oil pressure when hot today. We use it to move engine crates around the property these days.
Anyway, I do plan to do a video like you mention. 100% of my focus is on the engines, so I'll leave the rest of the "car stuff" to other people to cover.
I have to really watch it closely, since covering anything that's not a well- known issue (like bore scoring) means I get called a "fear monger" again.. I have a hard time with the unicorns, and rainbows.
Hey, I have a 48 8N too! Still good pressure. Here's me using my old girl to put up the trusses on my hangar I have a loader on it, and made a truss fork from drill stem. I also augered all the post holes, graded, bladed too.
Swapped for better pic
I see we have transformed this to the tractor thread...
Ours aren't so vintage, but they are practical. 3910 is my preferred tractor for most work.
Our first tractor, a Ford 2000, doesn't get used as much as the 3910, but still a good little unit.
Great thread by the way. Looking forward to the follow-up episodes.
After seeing the video, I tried to get a look in the bores of my engine. Figured I would find no scoring. And from what little I was able to see, there is none. However, I see something that looks to be material erosion between the two intake valve reliefs. What do you guys see?
You really want to see the bottom of the cylinder as that's where it starts from what I gather.
Everyone should subscribe to the Rennvision on YT so Jake knows there's an interest and will keep them coming.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Rennvision
Nope. in most every case the visible wear begins at the bottom of the cylinder, and is covered by the piston @BDC. This means tha a bore scope from the spark plug side won’t catch early onset problems. The reason the wear starts here is due to rod angle, piston dwell time, and bore characteristics. In part 2 you’ll see this clearly.
Often a bore scope test from the spark plug side shows nothing wrong with a bore, and then the classic mid- diagnosis begins.
Ok - at 5:30 and for about another 30 seconds, you say the wear starts at the "top". Is that not the intake side?
You Tube
Just trying to understand. Loving the videos and expanding my knowledge....
Scott: Does have a sort of carbon look to it. Which could be just as bad, considering carbon build up promotes pre-ignition/detonation in some cases.
Nice tractors. I'd love to have a 3000 series with a diesel. I have a JD 2010 for heavier work. Still like the old 8N though.
Thanks Doc. The 3910 is a diesel. Real stout.
I suspect the tune-up I am giving the car, will be a positive step. Won't reverse any of the existing issues, but shouldn't exacerbate them.
Any ideas on de-carbonizing? I've seen Sea Foam videos. Haven't actually tried it. Wouldn't want to, unless I have reliable affidavits from some trusted folks here.
Yeah, if I had a need, I'd pony up for a 3000, but mostly I'm out puttering, grading. I bought a Allis Chalmers small road grader when I started the runway job, for really smooth surface. Still working with that.
As for carbon, I'll be honest with ya, and say I've never seen any actual results from any kind of chem de-carbonization means. Carbon is the hardest element on Earth, in the right lattice structure it's what all diamonds are made from. When carbon starts to deposit, it forms one of the many crystalline structures depending on dopants and whatever other elements are present. There's probably some Si in there, and some nitrates, and other goodies. The only way I know is to remove the head and do what us old tractor guys know as 'de-coking'. Scrape it off with a chisel, and picks. Not a job I would want on a M96. I will defer to others more suited to any means on this engine. Also might want to get a better pic before going wild on the job.
Absolutely. My $20 'borescope' might not be the best to gauge the issue. I'm also of the same mind - physical removal with the heads off, is the best method. Hoping I don't need to go to that extreme just yet.
Stop thinking about the TDC and BDC locations. By �top� l a talking about the diameter of the cylinder. Look at the cylinder like a clock, the �top� is 12 O clock on that diameter. The wear occurs at BDC and at the �top� of that clock. BDC is the bottom of the piston�s travel.
That said, bore wear can occur anywhere on the diameter of the cylinder, and at times it will occur 360* al around the bore, from TDC to BDC. Thats easy to catch.
All you need to do this is a 32.00 bore scope from Amazon, it is made by Nidage and its what l use in my upcoming video showing how to do this. It has HD resolution, and allows pis to be taken, as well as video from inside the cylinder. It works better than my 3,000.00 scope and has a small 5.5mm scope diameter, thats 3.5mm smaller than most others. Just wait for my video.
On the tractor topic, l the Ford has a ton of history for me... I leave it just like it was when my dad used it the last time, and I don�t want to restore it. l have a full collection of Porsche tractors, and one Lamborghini. The Lambo is generally used to keep up the driveway, which is a challenge, as its 3/4 mile long.
Wow. Those are nice tractors. The Porsches look like they could be museum pieces.
I'll definitely look into the bore scope on Amazon.
I think we are saying the same thing regarding the bore - just slightly different terms. In reference to what I have highlighted - here is my take. See if you agree...
"Top" of the bore diameter (12 o'clock) is closest to the intake side (not the cylinder head)). I have no confusion (at least I think none) when it comes to describing the bottom of the bore (BDC). And yes - it is clear the wear is at the bottom of the bore (but, as you say, the top of the bore diameter).
Looking forward to seeing the next video. Thanks for your patience with me.
Nice Juniors JR. Air cooled diesel if I recall.
That Lambo cat is a rare bird. Joins us on yesterdaystractors.com, forums link sometime. You'll fit right in.
I've got two if you want to write checks. One is CO mountains, just under $300k, or an off grid 1100' real log cabin on 20Ac for around $150k. The cabin comes with a small tractor and blade.
Hello 996 community! Just sending out a kind FYI - Jake Raby has posted the next video in the Bore Scoring series on his YouTube channel. Really good stuff. I didn't have a clue that bore scoring had so many contributing factors. I always heard it was associated with cold climates and the forged pistons expanding faster than the block. Wow, I was taking to school today!
I wonder if Jake Raby’s middle Initials are R.R.? As in George R.R. Martin.....Waiting for Jake’s videos is like waiting for Game of Thrones episodes.
Thank you Jake for your informative videos’s. Will be watching part 2 tonight!
Sea Foam is trusted by pro Technicians as the best for removal of carbon deposits from tops of pistons and intake valves. Sprayed directly into intake while running at 2000rpm then saturate and let sit 10min, restart and drive aggressively. I have seen it work numerous times on build up that was so severe it would be causing an engine knock due to carbon built up so badly it was hitting the cylinder head.
In the "old days" carbon build up was caused by leaded gas, today it's caused by low tension rings and DFI, same result, increased carbon build up..
Back before the invent of Sea Foam, pro Technicians would use cold water to knock off the carbon from piston tops. Run the engine to operating temp, raise rpm to 4000rpm and induce cold water into intake while maintaining rpm. We had "nicknames" for this procedure that are no longer used to political correctness.
BTW; water injection used by Turbo enthusiasts has this effect also. removes carbon and keeps it off.
Sea Foam is the only additive I use in any engine other than Marvel Mystery oil in my old diesel military vehicles. Sea Foam has been proving it's self to me for 30 years.. The town drunk told me to use it once when I was a kid, and he was right... Been using it every since!
I was just taking to someone the other day about Marvel Mystery Oil, it's the only lubricant I have ever used in my air tools, a few drops from the 4oz bottle every once in a while has kept them alive for over 40 years of use, they all are still running ( except air ratchets, the heads wear out, not the air motor), some have been retired for newer more powerful/lighter models, but it's the only lubricant my air tools have ever seen.
Alrighty, if that's how it goes, that's how it goes. I know all about cold water de-carboning, and it has nothing to do with chemical reactions. this does not alter what I posted. Carbon(in its various crystalline forms is the hardest thing on Earth. If Seafoam is taking it out, It's not a chemical reaction.
Whatever, it works,I can see the info was not well received by you, I should have directed it to Scott, he was the one interested in getting rid of the carbon,but it mite also save you from pulling a head and wear and tear on your chisels.
Never under estimate the power of combustion within the chamber.. Despite theory, or thought.. I�ve been there, and done that.. Anything from M96 engines to the Jaguar engine in my Fox has seen sea foam, or even cold water to remove the carbon.. Done right it�ll blow right out the tailpipe.
OT: How does one administer Sea Foam on a rear engine car? You have to stand back there and slowly inject the spray into the throttle body while the engine is running!! The exhaust is going to kill you.
Yes. I was speaking of the home mechanic that buys the can in the auto parts store. FYI - I too have used Marvel Mystery Oil in older carburetor applications. Big, big smoke show.
. If I were to do it in a DIY environment, I would go to Lowes and get some plastic corrugated duct tubing and a couple squirrel cage fans and fashion and exhaust evacuation under the garage door. or get a gas mask!!
When I was a kid I used to be into Mazda RX-7's. I had picked one up with a blown motor and decided to swap a used motor into it for my sister. We lived in a nice yuppie neighborhood in NC at the time. When it came time to fire it up the apex seals had dried up and it didn't have any compression, which was common for a rotary that had been sitting. The solution was to pour ATF down the carburetor until eventually it made it's way to the apex seals and it built enough compression to fire. About 2/3 of the way through the 2nd quart of dexron this thing finally sputtered and came to life. What came out of the tailpipe for the next 15 minutes was a cloud of blue smoke that was so thick you couldn't see through it. Unbeknownst to me, my neighbors across the street were on vacation and had asked the people that lived behind their house to keep an eye on it. Those people assumed that cloud of smoke was from the vacationing folks house on fire and they called the fire department. By the time the fire department got there the Mazda had cleared itself out and the smoke was gone. I went down to ask the fireman in charge what was going on having some idea it may have involved me and the guy barked at me to go away, so I did. 20 minutes later after not finding any signs of fire on the exterior of the house I see the firemen taking an ax to the front door of the house to get in, and I went over a little more emphatic this time that maybe somebody should listen to me. I've never seen anybody so angry as that fireman was with me when he figured out he was going to have to buy a new front door for this house because he blew me off the first time I talked to him. He threatened to send me the bill like somehow it was illegal for me to have a smoking car in my driveway. My father who pretty much had a complete disdain for neighbors or even living in a neighborhood loved every minute of the story, my mother was so embarrassed she thought we were going to have to move, and at the end even the neighbors who had their door knocked in were pretty cool about it all.
So yeah, smoking cars can be a real problem.
Great story! Next time you're doing the same thing with your son and the police/fire show up, explain to them you giving back to the community with free mosquito control.
Works for me.
Part 4, I wish I had saw this before buying the $150.00 one I did.
I subscribed to the series, but one thing I didn't see or missed in part 4 was where you put the scope up in the sump at 5 to see 6?
Can you elaborate? If I didn't know any better I'd say you were from Chicago they way you are direct and no BS.. Thats's appreciated from my perspective.
Keep up the good work
Mike
With the sump plate removed enter #6 by having the #6 piston at TDC. Then enter #5, and sneak the camera to the left of the #5 connecting rod, and work your way into #6. This is how I did the inspection for the video.
The bore scope that you use means everything to this. You must have a scope with great flexibility, and a camera with no larger than 5.5mm diameter.
It takes time, and it is not easy, so some people will give up before they see what they need to see. Oil will be dripping on you, and the experience is not pleasant. Letting the oil drain overnight with the sump plate removed will make things easier. If you are like me, and engine oil doesn't bother you, things are easier.
I'm curious for Jake's and/or LN's thoughts on oil additives? I'm currently running DT40 (and did the Driven break in oil before switching to DT40) and realize there are additives in this oil, but I've had good result with LiquiMoly products in my BMWs over the years and thinking about adding
Cera Tec
as an added layer of protection. I'd be curious for the experts thoughts on if there's any potential harm this could do and if not, if you think it may be of benefit? I realize this will not prevent bore scoring or fix motors already afflicted, but from the research I've done, Cera Tec uses ceramic compounds designed to bond to wear surfaces and various independent studies report that this stuff does create a "glass like" coating to wear surfaces. Just thinking this might potentially slow the potential or rate of bore scoring.. thoughts?
My current rule is the only time to use an oil additive, is never.
The quickest way to imbalance the anti- wear and detergent packages of the oil, is to add something to it.
I could change my mind based on development that is being tested now, but I am not optimistic of this.
By this time the damage thats irreversible is already done, something in a bottle won't reverse that.
Thanks for your response. I figured as much and certainly wasn�t asking if it would FIX bore scoring, only slow the potential of occurring or slow the process once started. While I don�t believe in snake oil, I do believe LubriMoly makes great products. But at the end of the day if you feel it will do more harm than good by disturbing the additives in DT40 I�ll hold off.
Currently I don�t think it would really hurt anything, I also do not think it will help the scenario.
We are performing tests now with bore scored engines that are in the process of failure in regard to this. We actually assembled an engine with two different block halves, both with bores at various stages of failure..
Yes, building an engine and driving it till it fails is just one thing that we do to learn. Luckily test cars are cheap to buy.
provided I�m understanding correctly, it sounds like you guys will have more to say about various additives in the days, weeks and months ahead. I look forward to your findings, and like most, appreciate all the research and development you guys do.
Did you have to do any machining to get the crankshaft and IMS to fit properly?
If not, I wonder how long the mixed case halves engine would last if it didn't have the scoring issue.
No, because neither of these are housed in the crankcase halves.. They are both part of the crankshaft carrier assembly.
This work is only being done as a test, it is not proper for engine assembly, but it does work when someone knows what to do, and where to do it. No, you can't get optimal combustion balance, because the deck heights vary, and bore sizes are all over the map. I sacrificed 4 engines built like this in a junk Boxster when developing the IMS Solution. One of them idled without being shut off for two solid weeks. yes, it takes 20 gallons of fuel for a Boxster to idle for 24 hours...In the hot summer we had to use a water sprinkler on the radiators to keep the engine from overheating...
Dismantlers have been building mismatched engines for years.. They take 2-3 engines apart, use the good bank from each one, and parts from another (or more) and build an engine that "has 50,000 miles, and was pulled from a car hit in the front". I have had their "builders" attend my classes, and the last one said that their boss told them to save the used oil from an engine before it was built, and put it back in the engine after it was assembled to help it break in faster, and so it would look "used".
OK - I'll admit it - I am an idiot when it comes to using cell phones. I bought the Nidage endoscope as suggested by Jake. For the life of me, I can't figure out how to get it to work on my phone.
Never mind - I somehow figured it out. Don't ask how. I'm still a cell phone idiot...
I personally like the turnkey units that don't require the use of iphone or ipad, but you really can't beat the price. Raby has a good point comparing it to his expensive Snap-On bore scope.
