Re-man'd versus re-built choice

My beloved '99 996 has popped its engine. In considering getting a Porsche re-man'd. engine., rather than re-building the original engine, no one seems to know how many and which internal parts will be brand new vs. re-used old parts. Some sources say all Porsche re-man'd engines use new blocks. Given Porsche's well earned commitment to maintaining documentation, I suspect Porsche knows the answer. So why not offer it to the customer. relinuca Porsches Forever (or until the money runs out )

I can�t answer your question. I�ve read things here that align with what you are saying. What was the failure? Are your heads still good? If so, a factory long block will get you back in the game for reasonable money. They allegedly have the most current updates (including the later large IMS bearing). I�ve had good luck with salvage motors, but they come with risk. Who knows whether the used motor is on it�s last legs too? It does seem to be the most cost effective, especially if you can do the R&R yourself. Someone is bound to post about how the factory motor has some huge number of failure modes and going with a factory long block doesn�t address that. How seriously you take that is up to you. If you love your specific vehicle (sentimental, low mileage, perfect optons, lots of desirable upgrades, etc.), money is not an object, and you have time to wait to get on their schedule, Flat Six seems like the way to go. You could buy another 996 for what you�ll pay, but on the other hand, their builds address a ton of weak spots on the engines. And you can bump displacement up at the same time for additional gains. If I could afford to, this is the way I�d want to go...

I would (and did) opt for something with "Nickies"... Bore scoring is probably the most common mode of engine failure and the stock Porsche engines do nothing to address the problem. Caveat Emptor!

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How do you know that? Has anyone looked and checked the new shortblock that Porsche now offers? Word on the street is that it's all new components but that is just what I heard.

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Short block, not long block. Long block includes the heads too, short block is everything that's inside the block but without the heads.

All of the factory "re-man" short blocks I have seen look to me to be all new parts at a "re-man" price. Charles Navarra at LNE who has probably seen more of these than I have says the same thing, he may have even disassembled a few of them to look inside, I never have. Porsche updates many many parts all the time with no press release or mention, the only indication that a part has been updated is the part number has changed by one number at the end. A part ending in 00 is the first design, 01 first revision, 02 revision, ect. It is not unusual to see parts revised 5-6 times. Sometimes these changes are the materials and you can't tell, sometimes you can, sometimes the look is different, sometimes a different vendor is contracted to start making the part and get a revised part number. The re-man 3.4 short block sells for $6300 with the latest available parts, and is not prone to bore score as much as later engines. To me it would be a no brainer to use this and rebuild your heads and install. If you have an acceptable core that is, I think the core charge is $2200?..Unless of course money is no object, then a $25k JR motor is the right choice.

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The shortblocks are indeed new, but as far as the cylinders are concerned, they are not an updated design or material nor are they less likely to score. I have been told by other shop owners they have seen new or reman longblocks and even the most current shortblocks have failed with scored bores. One question I cannot answer is whether Kolbenschmidt updated to the Lokasil II process or they retained the Lokasil I process that the M96 block was based off of. The difference being Lokasil II has higher levels of Silicon than Lokasil I. I am currently working with Driven to come up with a possible oil additive to help with scoring issues based off of some recent research I've been doing and many research papers I've scoured over. There are actually an inordinate number of papers on scoring with hypereutectic Al bores.

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Although I cannot verify this information (I do have several emails out that I do not expect to get responses to), but there is also a Lokasil III process that was introduced with the 987/997. As 3.8s seem to be the worse offenders for scored bores historically, I don't think the Lokasil III process is any better than the II or I. The Lokasil II process was introduced with the 2002 3.6, so with that said, I think the Lokasil I process was the best with regards to scoring (but worse for cracking) as found in the 2.5, 2.7/3.2 through 2002, and the 3.4 in the 996. https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/moto...19.html?page=5

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Oh goodness. Sorry to hear that about your car. What in the world cause the failure?

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Seems I remember reading something about a Lokasil III(?) in my stack of Porsche Technical literature, I assume it is mainly a higher silicon content >30%? I've read a lot of research papers on hyper-eutectic aluminum/silicon cylinders bores, and it looks like they are here to stay from the OEM manufacturers. The higher silicon content of Loksil II (and even higher in Lokasil III ?) would make them higher tensile strength, but will also keep them from expanding as much with heat, which may be why they are more prone to bore score. Basically, the piston heats up first and fastest, the cylinder with highest silicon content will not expand as fast or as far, the clearance that is already very tightly set at the factory becomes zero. Also from the research papers I have read that test piston coatings for hyper-eutectic aluminum/silicon bores, the best coatings are iron and nickel-phosphorus-boron-nitride (Ni-P-BN) . The iron piston coating was used with Lokasil I, and a Graphite (Graphal) coating was used on Lokasil II and Lokasil III (?). If I ever repair another one of my cylinders/pistons, the piston will get the Nickel-Phosphorus-Boron-Nitride coating., as Nickel is the strongest of non-ferrous metals. Of course these are just my opinions and are subject to change with more/new information.

Is the problem with the piston diameter or the ring gap? I know with highly boosted turbo engines, the ring gap is very large due to the higher piston temperatures.

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Did the piston to cylinder clearances remained the same too and the shape of the piston remained unchanged as well?

Most discussion here focuses on the re-man engine. "Re-manufactured" is not an easily defined, or universally acknowledge industry term. If Porsche will not disclose what the 're-man' includes as new, and used but within tolerance, I would be wary. For example, a Re-man engine from Continental for an airplane engine includes a list of every part in the engine, and the source. Some might be amazed at how little is actually 'new', aside from bearings, rings, bushings, seals. Now to rebuilt. Again, an ill-defined industry term. There are millions of engines 'rebuilt' in Mexico(likely not 996 flavor), and there, anything that can meet the factory tolerance can be re-used. including piston rings. Can one imagine a 'rebuilt' engine with used piston rings? I will tell you honestly that I've taken a SBC fresh rebuild apart and found exactly that. What I want to get across is that the rebuilding process must be understood, watched, verified, and tested by the buyer, the rebuilder, and the inspector. Certainly if there is damage to a case, it can't be re-used right? Wrong. Cases are welded and put back in to service all the time. What about new pistons? If the old piston still fits in the bore and meets the limits for clearance, technically it can be reused. Which brings up the question of 'limits'. There are two that are important. New limits, and wear limits. All engine rebuilders know this, and will not necessarily tell you what they are going to do. So, you'll hear a statement like: 'well, if the original pistons mic out ok, we'll reuse them'. Nooooooooo!!! Just because they meet or don't exceed the wear limits does not mean they are ok to re-use. Pistons are ALWAYS a wear item. but - rebuilders install used pistons all the time. What about cams? In the 996, cams don't wear that bad. But they do wear. Are you getting new cams? Are you getting re-ground cams? If re-ground, are they heat treated right? Rebuild of an engine can mean a million different things. So, it's very hard to say which should be chosen until we know the shop, their skill set, the materials list, and the cost and warranty of a 'rebuilt' engine. Heck, I can take an engine down, clean it well, put in new rings, a valve job, new seals, and call it rebuild. In the tractor world they even have a kit called an 'in frame' engine rebuild. I kid you not, check it out. The difference is in what is included. New cylinder liners? Probably not for an in-frame kit. New pistons? Hard to say, maybe just rings, bearings, seals/gaskets. Know exactly what you are getting. NOT based on 'if they look or mic ok'.

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For the Porsche M96 "rebuilt" engines being discussed, the engines that have been disassembled by the experts have been found to have all new parts. This makes sense to me since it is probably more economical, with fewer potential liability issues, for Porsche to use all new parts. In Mexico where labor rates are low, it is more economical to have workers clean, measure, and match sets of parts during the assembly process. They can then sell it as cheap as possible, and Americans love cheap. What interests me most about this thread are the differences in manufacturing and materials that impact the potential for bore scoring. It appears that the earliest cylinders, combined with the earliest pistons, had the lowest probability of scoring. Based on my observations in the forums, it does appear that scoring is more likely to occur in the 996.2 and 997.1. There may also be a geometry factor (less lateral force) associated with the smaller cylinder and piston diameters of the 3.4 versus 3.6 and 3.8.

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Well, I will defer to those with more experience in the M96 rebuilding world, however - a reliance on the word 'experts' is usually an indication of weak sauce. If you are speaking for yourself, then say so, if speaking for others, I would be concerned that 'experts' often disagree, sometimes vehemently. And, what is the source of these 'rebuilt' engines? Surely not from Porsche as that would be categorized as "re-manufactured", being that the engine came from the mfg of the original product. did you mean 're-man' or 'rebuilt'? I can hire Harv down at H&H import machine to rebuild my engine. How would an expert know it came from there? Or what was inside, after 200 hours of use?

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Piston designs did not change much. The 2.5, 2.7 and 3.2 engines as found in Boxster and Cayman models used a cast piston with slightly less clearance than the forged pistons found in the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 models. In my opinion, the factory clearance was too tight with the forged pistons and that coupled with the fact the piston comes out of the bore 7mm on the 82 stroke engines adds extra stresses to the piston and cylinders, coupled with the less favorable rod stroke ratio that increases piston side loading at BDC changeover between the downward and upward stroke. There are countless whitepapers on the wear mechanisms of a hypereutectic bore. Right now my effort is to understand how lubricants interact to hopefully address this with a formulation change or top treat additive.

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Couldn't say it better myself. I've measured lots of engine blocks over the years. I guarantee you, unless the engine has 20,000 miles or less, the bores are out of round or tapered more than .002" from new, which we have verified as being perfectly straight with less than .0005" taper/ovality. Usually buried in the fine print on most rebuilds is the cylinders are checked and I know they are doing the "fingernail" test. If you can catch it with your nail, it needs to be addressed. That doesn't mean the cylinders are still usable or that you should re-ring an engine. There are no published specifications, so depending on the rebuilder's definition of what is within tolerance varies greatly. Do your homework. That's the best guidance I can give anyone.

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Cool, thanks for the reply.

It all comes down to whether you want to do this once, or do it again.. Two years ago a customer from Ohio had an IMS failure with his 1999 996. He could not wait for my engine program and bought a factory short block. He called this week to tell us that he thought he had a lifter failing.. His engine had a ticking sound. I consulted with him, and he had a local shop carry out my cylinder scoring process including audible and visual inspections. This occurred based on his symptoms, and my experience. Long story short, he didn�t have a �bad lifter�. Now he just messaged to say that he sold the car. This time around I just happened to have an engine for his car on the shelf, built to a Stag1 3.8K, ready to go. This year we took the winter and built a handful of engines for those who simply could not wait 9-13 months for completion. Too bad for the Ohio owner, he was now all out of money and took the car to CarMax for a �Max Attack�.

"Long story short, he didn’t have a “bad lifter”. Now he just messaged to say that he sold the car." I bet he sold it as having "a possible lifter tap"...

At this point, I don't know the actual cause of the failure, but I suspect a broken chain...either the main chain, or one of the cam drivers. About two years ago (and 7K miles ago), I spent over $3K to have the IMSB upgraded (w/the LNE Dual Row Pro bearing), AOS replaced, new clutch, DMF, and throw-out bearing, new chain tensioners, and a few more "while we're in there" things. Since such time, the car ran beautifully until, until, until "boom". I have always meticulously maintained and driven the car carefully. Really. On April 12, It will be flatbedded to a Porsche guru for a thorough assessment; i.e., drop the sump, pull plugs, look inside w/ a borascope, etc. The shop owner has already told me if its "bad", a Porsche re-man'd. engine is a better choice than a re-build. He added that the only Porsche re-builders he trusts are Jake Raby and Charles Navarro, both of whom he knows well. relinuca

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Yep. This is happening all the time. He said his indy put in �some thicker oil� and it quieted down a lot.. Now I�ll get a phone call from the new owner in 3-4 weeks after his �dream car� becomes a nightmare. BTW- My Engines don�t define as �rebuilt� or �new�. We far exceed the standards set forth by AERA for a �rebuilt� engine. We hate that term.

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What about the RND engines? http://rndengines.com/

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Curious to hear what made it go "boom"..

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RND has changed their offerings to support the endeavors of local shops building engines. Basically the way they changed the program is to sell an unassembled engine with all the components, to include the block, and heads. Clean everything up, and assemble it. I don�t think this will work, but I guess we will see.

They probably don't say what the new/old recipe is to stay flexible on what they can do. Early on certainly every "reman" will be a new engine and then as they get a lot of cores in they will start reusing some parts and it's pretty much guaranteed that there will be less good core parts coming in than reman engines going out so they have to add new parts to the mix.

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I think the product in question is Porsche Factory "Re-manufactured" Short blocks which is a really good deal for some motors and a terrible deal for others because the price of the re-manufactured motors depends massively on the variant of M96/97 in question. When, it comes to comparing Nickies to a Factory Re-manufactured (Read New Short Block) when the price is similar I am going to take the factory solution however depending on engine sometimes its alot cheaper to buy a re-manufactured.(996.1) Then other times its alot more expensive to buy a re-manufactured engine (997.1S). The re-manufactured motors have continuously been updated including numerous changes some good (Pistons which were changed in a number of ways including ring pack spacing/location and skirt design, Cylinder wall changes) and some bad (Non-serviceable IMS bearing) then one of the 996 failure locations they have not even touched like Cylinder Head Scavenging pumps/Oil Pickup. The one thing I can tell you for sure, most 996/997 motors when serviced properly and driven regularly go for 150-200k miles before they need chains done and I have seen multiple motors after chains/ramp repair go for another 100k and are still putting on the mileage. I have only seen 3 cylinder wall failure cars and of those all of them were above 120k and all three of them had very very very bad service histories and all were 997 motors. I can't say the number of other "Solutions" will do the same thing because the sample pool is simply way to small and almost all of those I have seen with the Nickies had IMS failure which means they are cars that don't get alot of miles. -Your Pal Fishey

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LN has taken over operations of RND completely as of a few months ago. In the coming months we will be offering engine kits along with a cylinder head exchange program and other services to better support shops that are rebuilding these engines.. We are also launching a program on exchange basis for blocks pre-sleeved to help with reducing turnaround time, which has always been the only downside to our Nickies process due to the time the block spends at the platers. For shops that do not want to rebuild the engine, as do offer a service for stock rebuilds with Nickies and other upgrades, but that requires the engine to be sent to us. We will not be stocking complete engines any longer and any that are still in SSF's inventory, are being offered on clearance.

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I think so too. I was replying to this by SA: "Originally Posted by Splitting Atoms For the Porsche M96 "rebuilt" engines being discussed, the engines that have been disassembled by the experts have been found to have all new parts." With the word 'rebuilt' in literal quotes, but referring to a engine which has come from the orig maker of the engine, this would be a 're-man'. NOT rebuilt. My original treatise on this specifically excluded the re-manufactured, and ONLY discussed the rebuilt engine which can come from a variety of sources, except Porsche. Any engine coming out of Porsche is a re-man. Any engine coming from other sources than Porsche is a rebuilt. It doesn't matter if the greatest engine builder on the planet is doing the work, unless it is blessed and sprinkled with the holy water of "Porsche" it is still a rebuild. The key here is that 'rebuilt' has such a wide meaning. However, 're-manufactured' by Porsche carries the imprimatur of some sort of factory quality control. It is embarrassing, and frankly down-right wrong for Porsche not to disclose what "re-man" means. Are the cyl within 'wear' limits or new limits? What parts are new? What parts are used but inspected? If used, what criteria are set for re-use? Finally, the re-man from Porsche does not give me the tingle up my leg it really should. Was it Hans and Franz in a sterile lab, with careful attention to detail doing the work, and using the latest in dye penentrants/magnaflux to check the used parts? Did they sleeve the bores? Did they re-machine them? What boring machine was used, and have the valve seats and guides been replaced? etc. Or - was the used engine packed up with 30 others and sent to Recife Brazil so that a couple guys in a tent with a hammer and chisel do the "re-man" then ship it back to Stuttgart nice and shiny? (no offense to any engine builders in Brazil meant) Shame on Porsche for this kind of obscurity.

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Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

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Are you going to be offering this to the public too or only to shops? The market might be very small but there are people (not shops) that might be interested in this when they are rebuilding or repairing their engines.

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Yes, RND program is now available to the public, where it was once only available to shops who did business with SSF Auto Parts.

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That's awesome! I hope I never need the service, but it is a project I would tackle if I had to. I was down at LN a few years back when the PCA came through and Lake Speed Jr. gave a talk on oil, was an awesome day. I did meet you quickly. I could pick my parts up! ;-)

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The above stated price is not necessarily factual..., but aside from that the JR motor is the RIGHT choice!

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If you ever do, you know where to find us. The shop has changed immensely since you visited. Lots more CNC equipment among other changes. You are welcome to stop by.

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Yea, I know the price can be more now, but look at price of a "new" m96/01 50k !! I remember when I could get a "complete" Porsche m96/01 re-man (read new) engine for $6750, with no core charge !! And my income remains about the same......

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it is hard to believe that Porsche has ever sold a M96/01 engine for $50K given that is at least twice what a really nice early 996 sells For! Why would anyone ever pays this?

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Yea Doug, I'm with you on that one, but they are ready if anyone ever does want a "brand new" one!

My Porsche "guru" called yesterday with his prognosis...the engine experienced a catastrophic failure...#2 cylinder is trashed, and hand cranking the engine only results in about a half revolution...then it encounters a solid blockage. He and I are considering various engine replacement possibilities. relinuca

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I have a 3.4 big bore, 3.8L Stage 1 in stock. There�s only 1, I had some extra time over the winter and built it. Here it is, in process. Good for 285 at the wheels. Nickies, and IMS Solution are standard.

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Those pics are making me drool like its an 8 piece bucket of KFC...

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Its even low cholesterol!

Back in the 80s and 90s this was my impression. Porsche prices were kept artificially high because owners mainly sold them when it was time for an engine rebuild. A 911 would sell for $20-30k. The new owner would drive it like he stole it and within 6 months to a year need a new engine. $15k later he has a $35k-45k car and needs to get his money's worth out of it. He drives it until it needs a new rebuild and voila - time to sell. Looks like it still happens today but maybe (hopefully) to a lesser degree.

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I'm sure this kind of pr0n is banned in several states. Sure gets me excited. My first thought was - how much? Then I came back to my senses. What a piece of art.

Engine has been sold.👍

And what do your stocker engines go for?

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The engine pictured, and discussed here wasn�t a �Stocker�, it was a Perfomer. The Stocker program has been phased out. People that come here for an engine have proven to want our engine.. Not something that�s stock displacement, even though it has better longevity than a factory engine. Done right, a Stocker cost almost as much as a performer.. Once the the remaining Stockers are sold, they will be removed from our offerings

OK. And what are those price ranges? I was not able to get an answer when I messaged through your website.

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What ticket number was that? Happy to send another reply to that ticket with pricing, after I get some exact details on your car and application. The Stocker is still listed on the site because some of them remain in stock. Once all are sold the offering will be suspended.

I'll send another ticket. Just sent another request for info, but didn't give me a ticket number, just said message was successful and I will be contacted via email.

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The ticket (F6000442) has been responded to, we need more information from you.

Strange, nothing has come through yet.

I double checked. My email is correct, but no reply. Just in case, my e-mail is: [email removed]

^^ Just call and speak to Jake on the phone...[phone removed] - the website is a little funky. I went back and forth for days trying to "register"... I finally gave up. Now Jud just sends me emails or calls if he needs to get in touch. Jake only speaks on the phone...I can't really blame him - direct communication is always best...