Any recourse against buying a car "as-is" from a dealer w/ bore scoring?

As the title implies, I'm quite certain my 966.2 C2 which was purchased from a dealer has bore scoring (it pains me to admit this). Without having done any type of inspection, it does have all the symptoms: 1 - drinks oil - I have to add close to a quart every few hundred miles, 2 - It ticks, 3 - I spews soot out the pipe (moresoe the driver's side) - my garage floor and items leaning against the wall behind the car are splattered. I would be completely surprised to hear this vehicle was fine. Anyway, the dealer I bought from was very nice, CarFax approved dealer. I had a PPI before signing anything and was told bore scoring was rare when I asked about it. The big ticket item of course was there was no documentation, so I decided to replace the IMS. Along those lines the AOS was done and the RMS and clutch were inspected. I was told it was a great running vehicle. I should also mention the place that did the PPI does some work for this dealer. There was no other place to get a PPI within a reasonable distance. Since it's highly likely the car already had bore scoring when I bought it (I remember seeing the soot from the tailpipes on the dealer floor when I went to pick it up, but was so excited I brushed it off as just condensation since it was winter), is it possible the dealer could be held responsible for selling a defective car? I checked NJ lemon laws and it's not clear if I do. What is clear is the As-is means no warranty - but I'm not looking at warranty work, I'm looking at buying a vehicle that was defective on the showroom floor. I'm probably screwed at this point, yes? Having said that, I LOVE THE CAR.

Quotes source post: 15929463

"Screwed" is relative. Bright side - you still own a Porsche. To answer your question, diligence was done and the issue was not caught. Yeah, you're pretty much on your own buying "as-is".

First of all don't try and beat yourself up. Plenty of us bought with no PPI (inc me). You can try your best, be polite at first with the dealer then ratchet up the pressure if it doesn't get you anywhere. You may find eventually a threat of legal action might grease some wheels but who knows?

Quotes source post: 15929614

^^^Won't hurt to try. How long have you owned the car?

"As Is" means "As Is" What I mean by that is... if you drive away and the car splits in two pieces 1 mile from the dealer, you now own two halves of a car. A dealer is only required to make sure it stops, starts as steers at time of delivery (in regards to as-is sales.) I see you're in South Jersey.. where at? I'm in Mt Laurel/Cherry Hill.

You can still ask the dealer nicely for help, ask for half of the repair price. He probably made a killing on the sale! If that doesn't work threaten to take him to court. If he's a big dealer and doesn't want his name dragged through the society muck he might just pony up and help you. Bottom line, he's under no legal obligation to.

I assume the laws vary by state. Having said that, I haven't bought a car from a dealer in 30 years so I don't have a clue what they are here much less in New Jersey. I would by all means approach the dealer but I suspect you are screwed.

If he has no legal obligation to help, how would it be fair to drag him name through the society muck. The dealer literally has to do nothing. You can ask, but it would be completely by his grace. You have no entitlement here.

Quotes source posts: 15929633, 15929655, 15929681

Bought it mid December 2018 and have put about 3K miles on it. I'm at Exit 2 on the TP, but work an hour away near the AC airport, which is the area from which I purchased. He's not a big dealer. He receives very good reviews and he was a pleasure to talk with; he's an ex-pro race driver. The first ride in the 996 with him at the wheel was magical with the way he perfectly heel-toed, but I digress. I'm not the type to air dirty laundry to the public, especially if it's unwarranted.

1) you are just speculating that it has bore scoring 2) as-is means as-is, if that was the deal you made, that's the deal you're left with 3) lots of time has passed, what's to say whatever happened to the car didn't happen in that time between purchase and now over the course of 3K miles 4) it'd be kind of jerky to go back to them after all this time and try to get them to take responsibility

Q: Any recourse against buying a car "as-is" from a dealer w/ bore scoring? A: Yes, if you can prove that the dealer knew of the issue and sold it to you without disclosing. If the car was misrepresented, the dealer should be responsible. If the dealer was ignorant of the issue, it's not the dealer's fault...how can he/she be responsible for an issue that was unknown to him/her? Once you've decided to embrace the world of "as is/no warranty," you pay your money and take your chances...

Quotes source posts: 15929810, 15929814

Yes, I'm speculating. But given all the knowledge I have gained here, I'm fairly certain it's true. I will eventually follow the steps is FSI's videos to know for certain. There's no way to prove he knew. Honestly, our conversations leads me to believe he was ignorant of bore scoring, same as I was. I have been weighing my options. I thought about buying a used 3.6 engine and slowly rebuilding it as time and money permitted, while driving mine until it's on it's last leg, then swap in the rebuild. Problem is, I have no idea how much time I have until that happens.

Quotes source post: 15929857

Post an audio of the ticking, please.

You sound like a rational person - I'd encourage you to be rational about everything, including the symptoms, before making ANY plans. * My '99 C4 will consume some oil if I feed it the factory-fill M1. When I feed it either of the two oils I have used since (DT40 and TOTAL Quartz Energy 9000 5W40), it does not burn measurable oil. * Some water from the tailpipes when your car is warming up is normal - it's essentially a combustion byproduct. When the cats are cold and the secondary air injection is on, you can get a LOT of water coming through...and if you are burning any oil, the soot mixed with this water/water vapor can be alarming.

3000 miles and 6+ months since purchase of an as-is used car. Sorry. No recourse. I would think if you signed the paperwork, went to the parking lot at the dealer and fired it up and it was ticking you might. As soon as you leave the lot it is as-is. First diagnose before you jump to conclusions. Then decide sell as a roller or plan to build. Keep us posted.

Definitely no recourse at this point. <---dealer

No recourse. It would even be hard to win a lawsuit after 6 months have passed, even if you can prove they knew. It's been too long. With that said, it still doesn't hurt to ask the dealership for help. Maybe just ask for a few thousand back. They might be willing to offer you something! The profit on used cars is higher than new cars. More wiggle room. Maybe they will refund even $500. That's better than nothing, you know? I recommend going to their dealership to talk in person, not over the phone or through email. I hope it works out for you! It was unlikely you, or the dealership, knew to check for internal engine damage. It's just the risk of buying a used car, especially a 986/996.

Quotes source post: 15929879

I'll try an make a clip later this week.

six months and 3k miles later on a 20 year old used car? Yes, it's your car and your issue unfortunately. Maybe they would be willing to discount their labor rate for whatever work is necessary if you ask nicely but at this point they owe you nothing.

Hopefully, it isn't that bad but there really isn't much you can do. I feel your pain though, I bought a car once and one of the turbos blew the next day.

Quotes source post: 15929681

Trust me, his profit will not cover half of the rebuild cost (done properly) of an m96.

Get it properly diagnosed before jumping into any conclusion and then take it from there. Right now you are just guessing.

Quotes source post: 15929857

So, you said in your first post that the "dealer" told you that "bore scoring is rare"... This leads me to believe that the car was ticking when you bought it and you asked about it - perhaps even asked if the ticking was possibly bore scoring? If that was the case and the dealer passed it off as something else, you may have a case. If I were a judge or perhaps an opposing counsel, I may ask - why did you wait for 3 months before you decided to say anything about this problem? You've had other work done to the engine - is it possible that something they did caused this? etc... See where this is going?

Quotes source post: 15932344

Actually, it was the shop that did my PPI. I read about bore scoring potentially being an issue, so I asked. Fast forward 7 months, and here we are with Jake's videos describing it in great detail. The information here and in his videos has opened my eyes to the issue. And correct me if I'm wrong, but with that timeframe, bore scoring has taken over as the big issue with these cars, which was previously the IMS (which I had addressed). Also, I drove it sparingly during the winter, so I had not noticed the oil consumption until I put more miles on it once the weather warmed up and the salt was cleared from the roads.

Buy a bore cameras they are cheap on amazon/ebay or harbor freight has one for 75 bucks,,, you / your mechanic should be able to scope it through the sparkplug holes, pull the plugs, rotate each cylinder to bottom dead center, and take a look. Remember that the base of the rebuild is the cylinder assemblies, LN has them with pistons for just shy of $5K If you damage them beyond repair, your tossing as much as 2000 in core charge out the window. In my state as-is starts at 72 hours after delivery, then its yours...

Quotes source post: 15932415

^^ Yup - the timing is unfortunate and it definitely works against you. I think your only hope is that the dealer works with you, but as others have said, the chances are slim. Keep us updated on the out come, and good luck!

As much as I dislike stealerships, I would say they are not at fault in this situation even remotely. Buyer had an indie give a PPI, mentioned bore scoring potential, bought car as-is with no warranty, and waited > 3 months to finally discover that maybe it does suffer. I see this as a problem with the PPI business, and I ran into the same thing when I shopped for a place to have mine done. None of the shops wanted or offered to pull the sump plate, and look for debris in the bottom of the engine, or investigate bore scoring on the cyl(scoring is more likely visible at the base of the cyl, and not in the upper end, above the piston, but it may be visible in the combustion chamber as well). I had to take it off myself, and take a look with a hi intensity light for issues like chain guide bits, bore scoring, metal shavings. This is a failing of the "PPI", and it appears to be systemic. If a seller will not allow the sump plate to be removed and re-installed for engine inspection by a qualified Porsche tech, keep shopping. Or, blame the seller/dealer when it goes pear shaped.

Quotes source posts: 15929711, 15934025

Agreed. Agree as well, with emphasis on QUALIFIED Porsche tech. I just dropped my sump 7k miles since last time it was opened. I sealed it much better than the last "qualified" tech did. No sealant in pick up screen, but it bugged me how much they used. Here is my work.😎

Merlot, I feel your pain as I just laid out some serious money because my beloved 996's #2 cylinder popped a big hole. If/when 996/997s develop major cylinder issues, there are no inexpensive choices. In my case, I opted for a professionally re-built engine, and that choice pretty much cleaned out my savings account. My 2cents: Porsche engines are incredibly complex...rebuilds require considerable expertise and an array of specialized tools, not to speak of lots of clean garage space and mucho time. That's why 911 re-built engines are expensive! My 2cents: Avoid junk yard engines...too much risk. Avoid "non-Porsche" shops...they may mean well, but lack the skills and tools to do quality work. Buy a couple bottles of cheap wine, and chill out....life continues long after the pain (say, expense) fades away. Do your research and Good Luck, relinuca

Quotes source post: 15929879

Here you go. You Tube

It doesn't sound as bad as I was expecting but the fact that it's drinking oil and you are noticing oil spitting out of the exhaust is not good. I was hoping it might have an exhaust leak of some sort. Also, if the oil is spitting out the driver's side tail pipe and you are hearing the ticking from the pass. side of the engine confirms that the issue is confined to the pass. side cylinder banks. The D/S tail pipe is for the pass. side of the engine. Can you take the spark plugs out on the pass. side of the engine and inspect them? If you are able to take them out, make sure you label them so you know which position they were in on the engine. I'm hoping for the best for you!

Quotes source post: 15939498

I can hear some ticking but at fast idle a little hard to hear. Doesn't sound all that bad to me. Only experience I have listening is to my own car, so no expert here. I was expecting worse too. It does sound like there is an exhaust leak in there, as well. Oil usage and spitting out of drivers exhaust can indicate scoring, but I'm still unconvinced. Yes to above: pull plugs on passenger side looking for oil/deposits. While plugs out boroscope cylinders with pistons at BTC.

Quotes source posts: 15939566, 15939702

I usually hear the ticking when it's reflecting off walls or cars as I drive by, and it's definitely amplified compared to the video. I'll be performing an oil change next week so maybe I'll pull the plugs as well.

Exhaust leak can make a ferocious ticking as well.

Quotes source post: 15939498

I can hear the classic "piston slap" ticking sound associated with cylinder bore scoring over top of the rough exhaust noise. Get yourself a cheap bore scope and examine #6 and report back. Not trying to add insult to injury, but my vote is you'll find scoring on bank#2. Sorry.