M3 or C4S?

Opinions wanted... Was out looking today and found a beautiful 2002 C4S, white with black leather, 27,000 miles, CPO at dealer. Contemplating trading up/down(?) from my 2005 M3 Competition. Car would be daily driver and I do occasional track days. Thoughts?

... and do you really expect an answer different to the one where we chose the C4S?

I will be selling my 04 White C4S - see new post. Performs outstanding on the track - unbelieveable. Grips the corners on the turns. Let me know if you want to know more.

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Greta, welcome to the forum! Congrats on the upcoming TT The honest reponse is that if you were to pay $17 for membership, then you could post your car for sale here. If is against forum rules for Non-members (you) to post items for sale (i.e. what you're doing).

i went from an '04 m3 to the c4s - would never go back with that said, the e46 m3 is one of the best looking non-supercars on the road today. it's smooth. it's comfy. it's not too much of an attn getter relatively speaking. there's nothing wrong with it, just that there's a better driving experience in the 911. i got much love/respect for the e46 m3 and can understand why a person would prefer it over a 911 in some cases.

Um...let me think about this for a second. Yeah, I'm done. The C4S is the clear winner, hands down. No comparison. Tlarocque, what was the dealer asking for the '02 P-car?

They are "asking" $54,700. Too high, IMO, but I don't know much about the C4S market yet. I didn't get to drive the car because its not done being CPO'd. Trying to decide if I would be happier spending a few more dollars on a '01/'02 turbo (you can get 'em in the mid $50's now) but I worry about possible repair costs on the turbo motors. Where do you guys think the price should be, assuming its as clean a car as it appears to be?

Sedan or Sportscar?

Oh come on, no need to start that. I can run with 996's on the track, I think you would be hard pressed to argue that the M3 isn't both a sedan (coupe, really) and a sports car. I bought it because I needed (and still need) a place for my toddler to ride and I got a great deal on it. My question, really, is if, in this forum's members opinions, I'd be making a lateral move or really gaining something.

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bro, many of these guys are going to say it's a clear upgrade. me? i'm no rennlist/911 fan boy and i will tell you the M3 is a capable souped up commuter car whereas the 911 is a race car dumbed down for the streets. i never look at an m3 on the road today and think damn i want that back. the 911 is levels above the m3 in driving experience, though i will say the m3 is in the same performance league as the carrera whether awd or rwd. you just need to go drive it and figure it out for yourself. here's some pics of my m3 (sold) and current 911 since pics are so much fun to look at than silly words

Benjamin, Thanks for your comments. Since you came from a rather sick looking M3 to an even more sick looking Porsche (that is a C4S in disguise, correct?), I suspect you know what you're talking about. I've always been a Porsche fan but they are expensive. What do you think is a fair price for the car I'm looking at? Has full leather, Sport Package (PASM), heated front seats, dark wood (not sure I like that). Thanks!

I drove both the M3 and 3.6L C2 before I ended up with.... Its a total different exprience IMO.

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... ... -td -> $0.02

Duh this is a Porsche forum so I think the answer is going to be obvious

Benjamin, if I HAD to have an M car...... yours would definitily float my boat. Tlarocque, I recently let a DIED IN THE WOOL BMW owner/neighbor of mine drive my C4S because he was going out to buy another M3.......... a couple of weeks later he turns up with a 997 cab.......... that was his answer. I really love the Porsche, I also have a 5 series nothing special but my daily driver and I really like it too. Lucky to have more than one ride. eric

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Isn't the new 335i about par with the "old" M3? Maybe the competition package makes it "better" - but the last version M3 is still a 3 series coupe on steroids. Why not wait for the 135i, or the new M3 if you are intent on a Bimmer. Otherwise, the P is the only way to go. -td

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Phil's only criteria is that the C4S looks much better in the garage!

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TD - that is just too funny!!!! We think alike, which has to be VERY scary for you! I know if I thought like me, it would scare the hell out of me!

Unless you need the 4WD or are in love with the widebody, get the regular Carrera, it's a bit faster because it doesn't have the carry around the extra weight, maybe even get one with the X51 power pack (rarer). Seems like alot of people are coming from M3s now as the 996 prices come down. I've had both, used the M3 as a grocery getter and the Pcar for everything else. The P-car is far ahead of the M3 in terms of driver feel and is a better car in every aspect (except it can't beat the giant trunk of the M3 )

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I've been off the market too long to give you a good feel for where prices are at. But you should know that options on the 911 represents a far wider spectrum between have and have not than the M3 which is pretty well standard once you add a package here and there. Mine is a C4S with the option lip and aftermarket Misha wing. My interior is even more optioned up which makes it a better interior than the high quality M3 interior which is better than most 996 911 interiors i've come across. the 996 interior can look like a pos plastic car far worse than your $20K civic or an interior worthy of a $90K+ msrp car. and as for these internet porsche dorks, let them be. they're kinda entertaining since they react the most to stuff i say that's oh so delicious.

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Actually Tim, both the M3 and 911 look great in the garage.

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That's a pretty 996,

I agree with Ben on this one, and he can speak to this better than most. He had a sweet M3 and now has a gorgeous C4S. I think you should try to get the dealer to let you take the C4S for a day, then you will be able to make a well-informed decision. GOOD LUCK!

I also owned a 2004 M3 and currently own a 2004 40th ann C2. I loved the M3 but the handling of the C2 is so much better. The new M3 looks nice and I've considered going back but at the end of the day, I wouldn't want to part with the C2. The thing about porsche is that I beleive it ages so well. If taken care of, it always looks great. I think the older M3s look dated. Just my $0.02.

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Same thing I said, but w/more words.

I'm sure the BMW is a great car, no doubt about it. I think one of the turn-offs about them - for me - is that they are sooooo common that I see one at every intersection, in every parking lot, and in every pack of cars on the highway. Maybe the M's are less common, but they all look basically the same to me and it's been years since I turned my head to check one out.

M's are much less common. I see just as many 911s as I do M3s. My M3 definitely looked very different. These cars look insanely wide and low on 19s/coilovers height adjusted.

Bought the C4S! Gorgeous white on full black leather, seriously looks like it could be brand spankin' new. I couldn't believe how clean it was. Went to the dealer to drive it after it was CPO'd. Loved the way it felt, sounded, looked, and just pulled the trigger. I don't think I'm allowed to post pics on this forum but I'll see if I can figure it out.

Congratulations! To post pics, simply attach them to the message. Anyone can upload pictures. Otherwise, upload to a place like tinypic.com and then insert the URL here.

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Actually, the way to post pix is to offically join the forum. It will cost you $17 to become a member and then VOILLA! you can buy - sell - post - pic and comment to your hearts delight. eric

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Ben - go back up to the original post and look at the first line in the copy. Then, next time, instead of calling "the group" internet porsche dorks you'll realize the dorks are just giving the poster what he asked for. I also noticed that you are in your own words "no rennlist/911 fan"...funny, since you are on this site everyday!

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Congratulations on the new car! I've been keeping quiet because I AM a dyed in the wool Porsche fanatic. If you don't mind, can you tell me what the dealer sold the car for? PM me or e-mail me if you don't want to publicly post it. I'm looking at a spring 2008 delivery of a GT3.

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Palting - long time no "see!" Where the hell have you been bud? We missed you around here. Hey, did you know that Chad (a.k.a. Chads996) picked up a '99 996 with the sunroof delete option last weekend? He is back here again. Good to see you back, even if it's only temporary until you get your GT3. Are you getting a 996 GT3 or a 997 GT3? Either way, you can go over to the GT3 Forum and give Dell some crap! I guess I'll have to P-shop another avatar for you, huh?

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If you're going to quote, quote me correctly ... "fan boy". I am a fan of the site but i don't pretend to like everyone or everything that they do and given this is a site to write out thoughts, i type openly about how i truly feel. i am a porsche fan, but i don't like everything that the 911 is. it has its pluses and minuses and i recognize that it is an imperfect thing, but at the end of the day, i spent $ on it because it adds up to a whole lot of fun tho imperfect. i have a handful of rennlist people i'd actually want to befriend if we had lived closer. i have a handful of 911s on this site that i say wow that is a sweet ride. i have a fistful of honesty.

Loving it so far.

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Sorry Ben, If you would have spelled it properly I would have understood the meaning "fanboy" no space. I misunderstood, thought you were using slang again. Sorry.

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you're reaching bud. 1 rennlist doesn't grade you for spelling, 2, if you can't connect fan boy to fanboy then you really gotta sobering up

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy

gregorycarl gregory carl

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...you really have to sober up vs. you really gotta sobering up I'm cool are you bud? Can we get back to p-cars...you seem to have alot of good info to share and have heavy mod knowledge.

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totally cool, visitor

tlarocque - nice l@@king ride! FIrst mod = harvest the pumpkins and get clear side markers.

Thanks. Not so concerned about the side markers, I'm leaning towards some lowering springs. Also, though I like the clean lines, I really think that curvy body looks good with a gt2 style rear wing. My local p-car mechanic quoted me about 8 hrs labor ($720!) for doing the springs. That doesn't even include the springs themselves. Does that sound right or a little on the high side? Who has an idea on price/source for good rear wing? TL

Drive it for at least a few weeks before a mod...so you know where you really feel on the car....I use stock suspension. It has saved me on my local roads....I had lowered on a prior car (993) and it was not ideal. If you lower, I would go OEM or high end....so assume 1500 to 3k for the stuff plus labor... Many have had luck with the ROW stuff....going super low can be too harsh. So, my car is stock. I love it. JB

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I would not recommend doing springs only. The shocks and springs are fitted to each other and if you change just the springs, the shocks will wear out sooner than normal and you could also get increased bump stop occurances. The labor would be about the same if you went with just springs or ROW M030 or X74 or PSS9's. Yes, the labor he quoted you seems a little high.

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+1 Good Advice. I paid $600 to have an RoW M030 set-up installed. Great Looking C4S!! Between yours and Chad's, white is really growing on me.

Where did you source the ROW M030 set-up and who did the install for you? Thanks!

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I got mine from Gert at Carnewal , but this was before the U.S. dollar tanked. I think you'll get a better deal from Sunset or Suncoast . Local indy did the install, it's a DIY if you have access to a ball joint spreader. Before and after pics:

Just a couple of notes:\ First, you don't need a ball joint spreader if you disconnect your axle at the spline and fold the upright out (see pix) You must drop the spring under the lower perch to be able to compress the shock to get it under the fender. Put a thick towel between the shock and the fender when you do this. It is easier than you might imagine. Second, I was kicking around last night and drove a couple of Mercedes looking to replace my older 5 Series BMW. Well just did not feel like spending that much on a car (E series) with so much uninspiring charactoristics. I did however, drive the NEW C350 and that is a little hot rod but still a little tinny feeling for a Mercedes. - now remember that I have an 04 C4S already - but I decided to stop by the BMW dealer on my way home. I saw an 04 330I with the ZHP package - somewhat rare. To make a long story short, I bought the car and it is a real kick. Please remember that I already have a P car and would not off that for a BMW but to have both is a beautiful thing. Maybe the OP could think about a car like this AND a P car!! Here are the specs on the ZHP - pretty cool.... NOT an M3 but close enough for me because I love having the automatic and 4 doors for my daily driver. (of course my C4S is a six-speed) ZHP Performance Package In January 2003, at the Los Angeles International Auto Show, BMW of North America introduced the 330i Performance Package, order code ZHP. This was a trim level upgrade that included engine modifications for an increase of 10 hp (7 kW) and 8 ft�lbf (11 N�m) of torque and a redline increase to 6,800 rpm (from 6,500 in the regular 330i). The ZHP option also provided a 6-speed short-throw manual transmission, a higher final drive ratio and speed limiter setting, a suspension tuned for better handling, and various BMW M exterior trim elements as well as an interior similar to that of the M3. Specific details on the order package include: - Sport suspension - Double Spoke (Styling 135M) cast alloy wheels, 18 x 8.0 front, 18 x 8.5 rear;,225/40R-18 front, 255/35R-18 rear performance tires - M Aerodynamic package - Matte stainless steel, 35 mm dual exhaust pipes - High-gloss shadowline trim - 8-way power front sport seats with 2-way manual headrests and thigh support; 3-driver memory for exterior mirror and seat positions; automatic tilt-down of passenger’s side-view mirror when vehicle is shifted into reverse gear - Alcantara/cloth upholstery - Anthracite interior headliner - M 3-spoke Alcantara-wrapped multi-function sport steering wheel with fingertip cruise, audio and accessory phone controls - Aluminum “black cube” interior trim - Tachometer with 300 rpm-higher redline and red needle - Short, sport gearshift lever - 3.07 gears in rear differential - .5 degrees camber all around - No 128 mph (206 km/h) governor (155 mph top speed). The ZHP package was available on mid-2003 330i sedans, all 2004-2005 330i sedans, and mid 2004-2005 330Ci coupes & convertibles. It has become a highly sought-after model due to its unique modifications. Car and Driver magazine track-tested the car, which returned a 0-60 mph time of 5.6 seconds and passed through the 1/4 mile in 14.2 seconds. Sorry Tim, no pix yet and maybe never since would be very OT. eric BTW, Yes I do all of my own work and this is an X-73 package from Gert as well.

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Only one way to go on the rear wing - Misha (see sponsor section)

i really like the new wing design - good work misha, you make me wanna switch mine up.

How much was the wing?

I am considering selling my '04 M3 and getting a 2002 C4S or a 2001 Turbo also. Before my M3 I had a 1999 C2, I bought used with low miles. I had several problems with the car and sold it about a year after I bought it. My M3 has free scheduled maintenance and was under warranty, and has been 100% problem free-now at 50500 miles. I will drive any car I have 12 to 15 thousand miles per year rain or shine and go to the track about once or twice per year. I drive conservatively most of the time and in traffic, carefully picking my moments when to open it up. Nothing turns me off to a car more than having to spend a lot of time taking it to the shop. I fell in love with the handling, road feel and overall performance of the 911. I am hoping my first experience with the 996 service issues was the exception. Are there certain things to look for unique to the C4S or turbo between 2001 and 2003, the model years I am looking at?

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i made the move 8 or so months ago from the same m3 on LMs, TC Kline to an '02 c4s with pss9s. m3 was pretty trouble free (steering pump went out) and the c4s i'm running with an aftermarket warranty (cost me $3.5K). the 911 is more fun to own/drive and my c4s has been trouble-free thus far. i've put on about 10K miles to date and things will slow down since fall/winter time is here (i have a commuter suv). just make sure you pick one with the options you want. my is pretty loaded and i wouldn't want anything less especially on the 996 since the interior can be pretty cheap/boring without all the $$ optional bits.

I found that, for my budget, I could get a higher mileage twin turbo or the car I ended up with, what so far seems to be a pretty pristine, CPO, 2002 C4S. I would love to have a turbo but my gut told me to stay away from the few cars I looked at. None of them were as clean as the C4S I just bought. My initial impressions are very positive. The engine feels like it has much more torque than the M3, even though it is rated only slightly more. It certainly doens't feel any slower than the M3 and it makes power all the way up to the red line. Fun! The car begs to be driven, and the feel is wonderful. The brakes are absolutely phenomenal (and I thought my M3 Competion was good). Go drive one, you'll be hooked.

Here's another look at my white version for you :-)

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if u don't have pse with it, you need to drive one with it. ideally with pse and with the evoms intake. it's insane how it sounds at wot in 3rd, 4th gear

what is pse? exhaust? mine sounds insane with the throttle open.

Ben, I've seen your car from the outside - very impressive. Do you have any interior shots of your upgrades?

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it's pretty much close to maxed out w/ OEM carbon fiber out coupled with the oem sport seats color backed. i also have the brushed aluminum dials which i love. also has the oem leather stitched steering wheel center along with the silver badge which isn't factory but high quality. if the car didn't come with this "stuff", i would've kept my M3 to be quite honest. but once i saw this car for sale the way it was, i knew i had to give it a shot.

Ben, Did you ever replace the carbon defroster panels? I found a set on ebay but haven't had the time to replace mine. Do you have the full carbon or partial? I have the speakers carbon as well on mine. Looks great.

German Rice