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YOUR RESEARCHI hate to do it but.......M030 VS. X74
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Adjust by a full lock of the steering wheel
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the rears are adjustable from the inside and the fronts can be adjusted by a full lock of the steering wheel.
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Suggestion
If there are options (shocks) you would like that are adjustable then having the procedure down for adjusting between track and road would be what to do.
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As I stated, I have installed the GT3 Lower control arms to reach the 21/2 deg Camber settings that I am now running...
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When I installed the X74 from Gert last winter along with GT3 adjustable control arms (more camber), the car came to life.
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The factory settings are what Van is running in his C4, while I am running modified GT3 settings these days.
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the x74 may be a better choice for a car used 70% at the track and 30% at street...
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Adjust between track and road would be what
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Suggestion
If there are options (shocks) you would like that are adjustable then having the procedure down for adjusting between track and road would be what to do.
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I looked at the pss10 but in reality i doubt you'll ever change ride height and you have to change the sway bars which is a compromise because of how you have to hook them up to the control arms.
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I looked at the pss10 but in reality i doubt you'll ever change ride height and you have to change the sway bars which is a compromise because of how you have to hook them up to the control arms.
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I'm getting ready to pull the trigger and upgrade my stock suspension to ROW M030. I am doing more and more DE's with my daily driver. The logical side of me thinks just go get the M030 for a lower / flatter / sportier ride. The
'ME WANT MORE COWBELL!'
side is really itching for the X74 from Gert at Carnewal.
Things to know......
1. Like I said this is my daily driver. 7 mile round trip commute to work.
2. Summer months are spent driving long weekends and a lot of miles.
3. The wife does not drive the car and is only a passenger sometimes on weekends. So a real stiff suspension could truly be a pain in the ****..
4. M030 from Suncoast is at $1095 + ship......X74 from Gert is around $2K ship incl
5. Doing 3-4 DE's per year
I have read previous posts and done a ton of research (I think). Just need a little feed back.
I honestly was going to buy ROW and after reading lots of stuff realized it was not "enough" for me...
right now I daily drive on some of the roughest roads in the country with some hard *** seats and my set up...it really isnt that bad at all. I am not suggesting getting what I have, but I would definantly get "MORE" or you will be back in the same boat before the year is out
go X74 or better yet coilovers or GT3 -
you are asking ME about FIT issues....?
you are screwed !!
I dont think the GT3 will work on C4 but coilovers are available and as said... X74 - Turbo will fit, but not sure there is an advantage....
LOL
Fit would be the last thing that I would ask you........after the turbo mufflers and the wing incident?
......sounds like a Seinfeld episode.
But your opinion is what I hold you in high regard......
go with MORE - ROW would be a waste of time and effort... not enough gain - for sure
you can PM Ferd (redridge) he helped me with the details and knows quite a bit though he hasnt been on much lately.... maybe I can email him for you if you get to that point
oh and THANKS for reminding me about the turbo muffler incident - LMAO !!
Being elderly, and having seen guys repeately go too far with their cars to the point where they just ended up selling them....
I respect Ed's suggestion about "more." But your post indicates you spend a lot of touring miles in your car and have a spouse that you (at this point) want to keep.
If the car were for you alone and you mostly just drove it for spirited drives, track days, etc. The tighter X74 would make sense.
If you do a lot of scenic driving and you were thinking that your spouse might join you for more than 15-20 minutes at a time.... then the M030 might be a reasonable compromise.
Of course, if you have kidney stones that you want broken up, the tighter suspension might save you a lot of bucks.
LOL @ kidney stone, good point James about the wife... but I have found that mine didnt like the car very much BEFORE the changes and it was a great excuse for her to stay home afterwards.... now it truely is for me
If there are options (shocks) you would like that are adjustable then having the procedure down for adjusting between track and road would be what to do. I wish Ohlins had 996 shocks. There stuff is repeatable for bikes at least.
My 996 arrived (to me) with the M030 set up... It was okay for daily driving...Soft & compliant. On the track it was a complete waste of time. The car would dive and could never get the balance right. The springs are way to soft & the rebound is not meant for that "aggressive, Hard" driving that WGI requires to turn anything near a fast lap. When I installed the X74 from Gert last winter along with GT3 adjustable control arms (more camber), the car came to life. It tracks unbelievable well with nice stability on several track types.
Now! this is not a track car only... My wife & 5 year old son take 3.5 trips in it to attend club events. I drive it up to 5 hrs on client visits and have no issues with the comfort. The family actually comments on how well it rides after all the suspension work.
As long as you leave the factory seats on the car you will not notice any real ride comfort change from the M030 kit. Yet, compared to the pillow chair ride of the stock US settings... Both will seem stiff!
Don't waste your money on the M030 kit! Buy the X74! Stay away from putting the complete GT3 suspesnion into the car as it will be more costly for the limited results....
My 02 996 race-only car has the ROW M030 and it works great on the track. It feels like I am driving a cadillac versus my full race suspensioned 964 race car, yet the 996 is faster and handles better.
You'll be spending 1/10 of the time on the race track with your car, so if you're asking for opinions, I'd personally lean towards the M030 but I have not been in an x73/4 car. A stiffer and lower suspension will certainly handle differently, but may have more issues for a primarily street driven car. You can learn to drive an M030, or even a stock 996, at a rate that is a lot of fun - and that's what the DE program is about!
By the way, if you're buying the ROW M030, Sunset has it a bit cheaper than Suncoast (they're always slightly cheaper on stuff).
The GT3 shocks & coilovers are expensive and for that money you can get Moton, JRZ's for better money and much more adjustabliltiy in spring rates, rebound & compression settings. As I stated, I have installed the GT3 Lower control arms to reach the 21/2 deg Camber settings that I am now running... as until this season the PCA Stock class did not allow Camber plates. These are a must! But, don't tie up the cash on OEM GT3 shocks, spindles, trailing control arms. sway bars or other Suspension parts from the GT3. The MkI 996 can turn (stock trim) fast laps at any track... But, If you start to push it to the limits... I mean the limits! You will want more! Also, I drive this car on the street and have no issues.
Did not see your car is a C4. Don't know if the GT3 suspension will work for you.
I would consider PSS10 suspension if you are going to go down the X74 route. Few hundred dollars more for the adjustability to find exactly what you want is worth it. Get it and be done with it.
I have the C4 with the x-74. For everyday driving the suspension is very compliant, compared to my 997 GT3. For track purpose, the x-74 is much better than the stock set-up. You can't go wrong with the x-74, purchased from Gert.
I have the ROW 030 vs M030 suspension and it kicks butt... its good enough for the street (wouldn't want it any stiffer) and at the track it absolutely blows away the stock suspension... others in this post have said its feels "soft and spongy"... not the case.. maybe M030 but not ROW 030... big difference between the two... in shock damping and ride height... ROW 030 is more aggressive of the two...
the x74 may be a better choice for a car used 70% at the track and 30% at street... but if your gonna only do 4 DE's a year then ROW 030 is the better setup for you... it comes with shocks, springs, new bump stops and even new sway bars... its a great deal for the $$$...
I also have a GT3 seat in my car 99 C2 and I do about 20 DE per year... I would *not* get X74 cause I know others that have said its too stiff for street.... it feels like a 996 GT3... which is absolutely terrible and tiring to drive in a daily situation.... that's just my opinion though...
if you want sharper handling later you can always buy ROW 030 and then buy the GT3 sway bars...
with your body kit X74 will cause you to scrape your front end cause its a serious drop... where ROW 030 is a more moderate drop...
I would suggest pss10.... 4 de's, you can set it to stiff. Normal commute... you can have a nice stock ride... plus your wife would still want to ride shot gun. Also, I suggest you get H&R ARBs'.... this is the choice for the turbo guys. I am quite happy with this setup and have the best of both world..... but leaning towards more of a street car and occasional DE.
Its really not that bad as far as setting stiffnes.... the rears are adjustable from the inside and the fronts can be adjusted by a full lock of the steering wheel.
Van is right!
His 996 C4 is a daily driver and does DE task very nicely... You should see his video from LRP in the C4. Wish I could turn laps like that...
There is a big difference between ROW 030 and X74.
The x74 is pretty stiff for the street (much stiffer in my experience than PSS9/PSS10), but you'll wish it was a little stiffer on the track.
Not a bad choice for a dual use car IMHO.
Another vote for X74. Got it, love it. I use mine on both street and track. With X74, rough pavement feels rough, but the car never bottoms out or hits the bumpstops. On smooth pavement, X74 feels like heaven. On the track, X74 is plenty good for 99% of drivers. And now that I also have front control arms for more negative camber, the only thing limiting my performance on the track is talent.
I had the M030 and then went to the X74. The swith was well worth it. Much better on the track and not bad as a daily driver. I also added GT3 bars with adjustable drop links and adjustable rear control links.
I miss that car.
Yes, the X74 was designed for the post 2002 911, or the MKII. The MKII's have increased rigidity and can handle the stiiffer rates better. However, there have been a lot of MKI's who have the X74 with no issues.
Here's another twist for you. The C4S, the succesor to the C4 coupe, uses the X73, not the X74. OTOH, the C4 is a narrow body whereas the C4S is a wide body. So, does the X73 work better for you because of AWD, or does the X74 work better because of the narrow body?
Anyway, the C4S comes standard with MO30. All my family teased me about the hard ride of Daddy's Porsche, but they all wanted to ride in it. I liked it for the street, but it was just adequate for the track. I switched to the X73. Loved it for the track, just barely tolerate it on bad street roads. My family don't tease me anymore about the heard ride, they just don't ride. They all really don't like the harder ride of the X73.
My .02: if you use the car mostly for aggressive street driving and occasionally for the track, go with the ROW M030. Good enough for the track, exceptional for the aggressive street driver, and the parts are right. If you use it mostly for the track, then go with the X74/X73.
I've got a 2001 C4, really didn't like the stock suspension or the way the car looked. I went throught the same decision process you are and went with the X74 (fom Gert) and it transformed the car. It lowers the car 40mm (1.5") same ride height as a GT3 so it looks the way a Porsche should. The ride is firm but not harsh at all. I only track it once or twice a year but it made a huge difference in stability and makes it much easier to really push the car in high speed corners. ( local track is Mosport). I looked at the pss10 but in reality i doubt you'll ever change ride height and you have to change the sway bars which is a compromise because of how you have to hook them up to the control arms. I figure Porsche engineer's know a thing or 2 about how to make a car handle. Go with the X74 and use the factory X74 alignment specs.
Can you get the X73 from Gert?
Im having some issues with dive/squat on the track.
I'd like to "firm things up", but I don't think I need the adjustability of PSS9s etc...
All these kits are available from Suncoast Porsche as well. Here is the page showing them all:
http://www.e-partssales.com/miva//me...=996Suspension
No affiliation, just a happy customer.
One more thought, if you buy from Gert make sure you figure in import duties as I don't think they are included.
Both Gert and Suncoast have good reputations so I'd go with the least expensive.
After reading all the posts and with many sleepless nights (I can't believe that this ate at me like this), I have decided the X74 'Need more cowbell' is the way to go. A little more than I wanted to spend but in the end it is the right choice. The wife's horse will have to do without a massage now and than.....don't ask...
I very much appreciate ALL the opinions and input.
I'll be sure to post before and after pics.
Pete
You are welcome. Feel free to pm me with any questions. As I did the installation myself (along with all other modifications). Gert is great to deal with and is also another key resource w/tech questions.
The factory settings are what Van is running in his C4, while I am running modified GT3 settings these days. My current camber settings are 2 Degree 30 min rear & 2 Degree front. this year I will be pushing the front up to 2 deg 30 min as well.
If you have not watched Van's vid yet from LimeRock park... take a look and see what the car will drive like with the factory settings. Amazing!
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