Driver's Ed Crash

I recently attended a BMW DE event at NHIS and got hit by another car. The indiviual, who was apologetic, said he was trying to stay with me to watch my line I was running. As a result he tried to late brake at 115mph and instead looped the car, hit the wall, hit me and then the wall again. His once really nice M3 track car is now completely totaled and my car is banged up. I would have to say that the accident sucks but the inconvenience is more the problem at this point. Driving on the track is one of the greatest things that I have done and I recommend it to everyone. When you drive on the track please think of others, think about the amount of money you are driving and don't drive above your head because you are not the only guy out there. As for the BMW DE Events, it is very disorganized and the groupings are very poorly setup. The speed differentials are huge because if it has wheels the BMW club will let it run and if you tell them that you can drive they will let you run in any group you want. My question to this Forum is what are you feelings about insurance. Should we as drivers be required on the track to carry insurance for the situation that we hit some else they are covered? I understand that racing is completely different and would not apply. How about DE track days? I have insurance and the means to fix the car. If I hit someone else I would fix that car I hit b/c as a person I feel that it was my fault, my responsibility. The guy who hit me has no insurance and does not have the means. With all that being said, drive fast, take chances and enjoy you cars.

Man, that sucks! I'd be livid that he was driving without track insurance. Livid that the club let him drive without insurance, or proof that he could cover damages. That being said, when you take your car out on the track you have to be ready that you or someone else will cause it some serious damage and insurance will not cover it. From that perspective it's good that you have the means to cover this. Overall, the damage doesn't look too bad - a new rear bumper and tail lights - could have been way worse. I'd say that if the guy that did the damage cannot pay, then live, learn and move on. Repair the damage and stay well away from the BMWs.

That sucks, doubly so because the other guy had no insurance! Have you had the damages to your car appraised? From the pic it damage appears to be relatively superficial, but there could be some "hidden" damage to the car (i.e. frame, suspension, etc.) Good luck with the repair.

That is a MAJOR bummer. I have thought about this scenario nearly every time I drive on track. I have DE insurance but I am quite sure it covers only my car. In the ideal scenario that everyone on the track has similar insurance I guess that could work. What about blame, responsibility, etc.? You say you would cover someone else's damage if you felt it was your fault. I think that is noble and smart and I would endeavor to do the same. A good deal of people, however, could not afford to do that even if they felt it the correct thing to do. Good luck with the repair and I am curious how you left off with the BMW owner.....I mean "sorry and good bye??"

If its a Real DE with intructors... your car is coverd with your insurance.. Im with State Farm, and I call ed then not 2 weeks ago to be sure. The officla anser i got was as long as its in the US, and its not an official competive event, your car is covered.

Let's not get carried away. I agree with the OP's position, and that I would try to figure out a way to make it right. With that said, car-to-car contact is exceptionally rare in DE, and requiring track day insurance of everyone might be a bit extreme. You have to understand the risks going in, and make your own decisions about how to protect yourself financially.

I'll be the first to say it. I'm relieved to hear that both drivers were not seriously hurt.

I think you're letting someone off WAY too lightly. What happened to his "really nice M3 track car" that's completely totalled? I'll bet the parts off a totalled M3 of any vintage would be enough to cover the repair on your car. I wouldn't be so quick to believe that someone doesn't have the means to fix your car. The guy had the means to take a nicely-prepared M3 to an organized event but can't come up with any way to fix your car?

Does the guy live in Massachusetts?

He lives here in NH and as for RamVA response, the risk is completely understand but if you are driving above your ability, it is noted by the BMW Chapter of the reason for the innicident was your fault then that shoud be enough to warrant that you are financially responible for the second parties vehicle. i think that people should be required to have insurance for these problems. One can not be accountable for someone else ignorance. That is why we have insurance for street use?

I have S.F. also, are you saying that standard insurance covers any damage even if it occurs on a track as long as the event is not an official competitive event (such as a drive around track day)?

My point is/was: You know that when you go on track everyone is NOT required to have insurance. Knowing this you should plan/judge accordingly and purchase insurance as appropriate. This is not to say that the guy in the M3 should be let off the hook, but simply to say that requiring insurance is unlikely to happen and (ultimately) not really necessary given the rarity of car-to-car contact and the ability of everyone on the track to insure themselves if desired. That said, were I the OP I would go after the guy. A couple of weeks ago my Lotus was whacked in the nose by a 2x4 that had stuck to a car being jacked and then came off on track. Believe me if I knew who the driver was I'd be asking them for my $2700...

This depends on the state and the company. Call to ask. In many cases you will be covered, but it is not unlikely that your insurance company will drop you after you file a claim.

First, I'd be real suprised if the normal state farm policy would cover such an incident. Two people I know had their state farm insurance signifcantly modified when the company found out they tracked their cars. A clause was specifically written that negated the insurance if the car was at any sanctioned event (SCCA, PCA, BMW...) regardless of competition. Second, after being an instructor for 6 years, our region safety teams have never allowed cars to get close enough to have something like this happen in a run group without clear parameters. I beleive the BMW club should be held partially responsible for allowing an unsafe condition. Third, this guy's reasoning for following so close is bunk. You can follow someone's line from hundreds of feet back. Why was he trying late brake if he was 'following your line?' Why? becuse he was trying to catch you, got tunnel vison and forgot what he was doing. The guy in the M3 was not being safe and should be severly counseled if he ever has the nads to return. Run groups that are allowed to run close enough to make contact should be clearly discussed in the driver's meetings. The drivers of those groups should clearly understand what the ROEs are. Those groups, at least where we are, know each other very well and know each other's capabilities. BOTTOM LINE: A well run DE should not have cars hitting each other. That is the fault of the organizers and corner workers. That's the whole idea of DE's vs. racing. The risks are known by everyone. And, by the way, forcing everyone to have insurance for these things becomes VERY problematic. PCA has looked at this and has decided not to pursue it. FLAME if you want but we have had over 15 years of non-accident DEs in our region and it's a testiment to the members of our safety teams and organizers.

+100 There was negligence here and it would amaze me if there's no recourse. Someone made the valid point that how come he cannot afford to pay if he runs a well maintained M3 and can afford to attend DE.

Thanks. That is a tricky question to ask an insurance company though, although I have been with S.F. for 15 years with no claims (same agent all these years) and they always get a laugh when I email them from my domain account which is 'TheSpeedDemon.com'. I have been invited to watch the PCA Golden Gate club race at Thunderhill on 8/4 and 8/5, again watch the races (this is my first time watching PCA). I have been told that at the end of the day Porsche owners can do a drive around the circuit I think with a passenger that is an instructor, but not sure, but I am thinking it probably would be the case. So I will not be racing. So with that scenario, how would you pose the question to S.F.? Now reading other posts I am sure that PCA would not do this drive around without enforcing rules and having instructors in cars for novices such as myself, so that the incident that occured with nmercier does not happen.

Many if not most street policies now have language in them that absolves them from any on track liability (including DE). I think your best avenue is to appeal to the BMW driver for some repair costs since the incident was clearly his fault. I'm going to link this thread to the competition forum for their input.

Bummer. Glad to hear none of the drivers was hurt. Bottom line: If you cannot afford to throw your car away, you should not be on the track. If you knew that BMW events were not well run, why did you sign up for it? If you figured it out during the event, why did you continue to run? When you signed the waiver at the door, did you read it? It essentially says, "I know what I'm doing is dangerous, perhaps stupid, and I'm going to do it anyway." Stuff happens, and nice cars get wrecked all the time. Deal with it.

931guru is dead on. If you can't emotionally and financially walk away from your car there is no way you should put it on the track. If bad luck happens, whether it be a mechanical problem or body damage, you should have the means to take care of it yourself. This talk about going after the BMW club or the other driver is a clear path to the death of DE.

Driving on a race track at speed is inherently dangerous and no one should drive a car that they can't afford to walk away from. Anything can (and does) happen out there and you are responsible for any damages to your car regardless of how they got there. Unless the BMW Club's waiver is weak (I seriously doubt it) you are going to do nothing but waste your time and money trying to pursue damages.

This is right. My home PCA region, NNJR, makes you sign a form acknowledging that you are 100% responsible for YOUR car no matter what happens. If he was nice, he'd pay, but he doesn't have to. Your car is your responsibility when on track. To blame the organizers of the event for having cars in a position that this could happen is just plain stupid or those who post that have participated in VERY different DEs than I am accustomed to in the Northeast. Having run in many different PCA regions' and sanctioning bodies DEs I can tell you that cars come close enough all the time where if one driver makes a mistake or has a mechanical issue there is a risk of car to car. The fact that it doesn't happen more frequently is what is amazing.

OK, I will flame. Track incidents sometimes just happen. What if your brakes failed completely? Then what? I agree with Jupe that in every region I have ever run with, that cars follow close enough that incidents, though exceedingly rare, will certainly happen when a major mistake is made. IMO if you think you can mitigate away all the risks, then you're just fooling yourself.

Piling on with the recent replies. Agree with above 4 replies and there's no sense reiterating, but I thought I'd post anyway, after reading the entire thread...

Sounds what you looking for is not DE. In most incidents someone is at fault. You should have reserched insurance issues before you registered for the event.

x2. Sorry about what happeded, but you did sign a release before getting on track? Don't even think about going after BMWCCA. You are going to ruin it for the rest of us. I am worried about the car being damaged at a DE, whether the fault is another person's or my own. That's why I carry track insurance to cover myself. Edit: I realize the original poster did not suggest going after the organizer. So I am only responding to a later post that brought this up.

You have no idea what you are talking about, most policies now specifically exclude "on-track" events and it doesn't matter whether your are timed or not. Some people still get away with it, but realize that you are very likely to not be covered. Get a copy of your policy from State Farm and read it. I think they were one of the last companies to add this exclusion, and I'd put little faith into "they told me on the phone it was covered!" because you'll likely find yourself high and dry! As always on the Internet, be careful making decisions on what you read that may or may not apply to you!

Sucks that you got hit, really. The rest of this post is not directed at the original poster, but rather to some of the commenters. Everyone that attends a DE signs a waiver. The waiver says, basically, that you have no right to sue the organizers or other attendees. What does this mean to you? If you cannot afford to fix your own car if it is wrecked through no fault of your own, you have ZERO business doing a DE or going racing. Would it be nice if a bonehead paid for his mistake? Of course. Is the bonehead expected to pay for the mistake? HELL NO. Everyone who has done DEs or racing knows how it goes. You bring your toy. You pay for it even if someone else breaks it. Really, that is the way it has to be. In this way, you can manage your own risk level. If you can't afford too much? Drive a cheap car. If you want to drive a $500,000 car on the track, you had better have the wherewithall to replace it if jonny boner in his cheap car hits you. If it were not like that, only the rich boys could play because everybody, even if you were driving a cheap car, would have to be ready, willing and able to pay for the most expensive car on the track at the time. With respect to insurance, I am unaware of liability insurance for DEs and or racing. You can cover your own car . . . but nobody will cover anybody else's car. Forget the talk about suing anyone at the track. Unless someone was trying to kill you because you banged his wife last night, talk of lawsuits is entirely out of place IMHO. EDIT: Wow. I had not read everyone else's posts. Sorry to pile on. They are right. Nice if the dude pays. He has ZERO obligation to pay. Be careful with street insurance. I would NEVER play that game.

Certainly not true of our local BMW club. Anyone they aren't familiar with has to get checked out by an instructor, and isn't just running in ANY group. Flaming BMWCCA really accomplishes nothing. If you have a problem with that region, then speak to the head instructor/track chair. If you believe for a second that anyone in these positions isn't always looking for ways to make events safer, then you are greatly mistaken!

I think there is a lot of confusion about liability on race tracks. I've asked lawyers about this and they say the whole think is cloudy. For example a guy I know was at a MetroNY PCA event and he drove off the track with no problem until the guy behind him kept going and followed my aquaintance off track and then barrled into himr. Guess what though, this acqaintance put a claim into his insurance company, the company repaired his car and went after the other guy, all just the same as if it had happened on the street. But maybe this isn't the norm and for sure insurance companies are starting to specifically exclude anything on a race track. Actually the car damage could pale in comparison to a liability claim. As stated by a few in this thread we all need to be mindful of what we are doing. Best of luck repairing your car. I hope it's not too serious and that you can continue to enjoy DE.

This is very simple and I am sure I am going to probably say what has already been said 20 different ways. Simple in that you assume risk for anything no matter the situation that happens to your car. Now, Had I been the M3 driver knowing that I was trying to "hang" to see the line and caused the damage to your car I would be right there in the paddock trying to figure a way to work this out checkbook in hand. Now had this been a case of a driver losing his brakes, picking up debris, or running over fluids and as a result lose control then it just falls into the no-fault "incident" category and each is responsible for his own. He owes you a rear skirt at a minimum. Nice thing is paint will be a couple hundred and the part could be had for a few hundred with patience on eBay so if he doesn't step up and do the "gentlemenly" thing you probably aren't that much out of pocket. Whatever you do, DO NOT report this to your insurance carrier. It will cost you in increases from reporting a track incident than it will to just pay for the repair.

Have to disagree, the BMW driver doesn't "owe" him anything. IF he wanted to he could offer to pay for damages but he didn't so as far as i'm concerned game over, tough luck, you eat it... period.

I have found the NE BMECCA Club DE programs to be better in many respects that their PCA counterparts. There is more instructor time with students, even in the Advanced run groups.

Disagree all you want as I was giving MY OPINION. But if the driver admits to following too close trying to keep up for the purpose of trying to see the line of another driver then that is a situation where he is at fault. Does he owe him? Literally no. You misread my post. He owes him as that is the gentlemanly thing to do. Maybe that is just me.

First, track incidents don't "just happen" in a DE. Rules are structured for safety. You as a driver should have a plan for when you get into trouble. I have multiple times drvien straight off (both feet in and under control) when I was traveling too fast for a corner. It sounds like he was concentrating to much on the driver in front and not enough on the rest of the track. Using another driver on the track to learn from observation is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good practive for advanced Yellow and White; but it should NEVER be doen without both drivers in agreement before entering the track. The object is to find someone with a similar pace as you that you can run with and switch (voluntarily) to see how each other is driver. The feedback is usually very beneficial for both drivers. You can also have much faster advanced drivers do something similar, but the faster driver will slow down to your pace and control the pace. Then it can slowly build it to a level where you are in control and safe. I don't really want to be negative toward the BMW club, but I am not as surprsed to hear of this happening at a BMW club event. Even though locally the BMW club and the Porsche club use many of the same instructors, the Porsche club is far better structured. PCA has more classes and better definition between classes. The pace differential inside a single class is much closer and the pace is in general faster per class. As far as insurance goes, as a BMWCCA event the event is REQUIRED to be covered by BMWCCA insurance with cover up to $10M in personal injury and personal property damage. To file a claim, you need to contact the event organizer or go directly to the national committee.

sorry hear hear the mishap. i applaud your attitude on how to handle damaged cars. but in real world, i doubt any organizer can force participants to carry insurance. that said, i take similar attitude to yours when on track. sh*t happens, your fault or not, be prepared to deal with it physically and financially. i had a car totalled by another drive who drove into me. he was apologetic, but i paid for my car's damage out of pkt.

actually it does. here are some examples. say i missed my apex, went wide. you are behind me and went wider to avoid hitting me, the third car went off and hit you... so who's fault is it? (i would say no one, everyone pays their own bills) say, i have a well maintained car, but i sucked at shifting and blew a downshift at 100mph into first gear, blew motor, and i got off line as quick as i know (to avoid oiling the track). but the car behind me hits oil and drove into a wall b/c of that. is it my fault. sure i missed a shift, i sucked. but that's why i am on track to practice. is this what we mean by "things just happen"? another incident, which happened to me not long ago. someone chasing me and we both run fairly consitent times and lines. but suddenly my brake went soft. i pumped and then it came right back so my car stopped more than i wanted to. chaser was a foot off my *** and if i braked like i did the lap before all would be fine, but due to my brk issues, he didn't expect me to stop so abruptly and got so close he had to swerve and lock up. now if he swerved and lost ctrl hitting a wall... who's at fault? i would say this is another "things just happen" episode no?

This is a risky sport. Don't play if you are expecting an inquiry into ultimate blame for damage and a check from the one who was deemed "guilty" It just doesn't work that way. Sometimes fault is clear, and the person to blame is a wealthy gentleman, so he pays . . . Sometimes fault is clear, and the person to blame is the best guy in the world but he just doesn't have the extra $$ to pay for a GT3, which is why he is driving a 912 on the track. Sometimes fault is clear, and the dude who caused it doesn't even bother to come by and see the damage (ask }{ about that one). This is one of the many reasons I race a n/a 944 rather than a GT car . . .

There is always a cause, but short of mitigating at the nth degree, track incidents WILL "just happen". If you think otherwise you are fooling yourself with a very dangerous sense of security. I once thought as you do. I've learned my lesson the hard and expensive way. Did you watch the ALMS race today on CBS? If so, did you see the cars that spun as a result of broken suspension pieces? Don't you think those guys did everything they could to ensure those cars are prepared and well maintained? Do you think DE drivers maintain their cars to the same level of perfection? Now tell me why similar failures can't or don't happen in DEs. They do. Take my experienced word for it.

AUDI R10

That is my point Dell. I agree. When I said "appeal" to the BMW driver, I did not mean sue him. If he is a gentleman he may offer to pay for part of the damage. However, I do not believe that he is legally (or morally) responsible to do so. Ask yourself this, if you are DE'ing your car and you bounce of the wall into the path of a Carrera GT and he totals his car in an impact with yours, do you owe him a new car?

This is EXACTLY my point. The answers to the questions shouldn't vary based on price of the car. You either have an obligation, or you do not. I think there is no obligation. If you can AND it was your fault, it is a nice gesture, but nothing more than that. If someone cannot, or even just will not, it should not be held against them. If you hold it against them, then YOU didn't understand the rules of the game going in . . .

This talk about NOT going after the other driver is a clear path to the death of personal liability. The other driver screwed up, it sounds like he admitted to doing so, and then looked the OP in the eye and said he couldn't pay. Not going after the BMW club is understandable. Not going after the idiot that messed up your car? Nuts.

Yes, I've seen that happen after a couple of car to car incidents in PCA DE. In both cases, the signature of both participants on the waiver was a key in a dropping of the suit. You can always spend your own money to generate a lawsuit. If it is frivolous enough, you can even spend your own money to pay for your opponents costs.

This attitude is what is wrong with this country.

I agree.

my .02. first of all, if the bmw driver wanted to see your line, why not offer to take him for a ride? in my region ( nnjr/pca ) the instructor corps and upper run group drivers do that all the time. secondly, as a pca instructor, i tell all my students, read your policy and if you decide that you cannot not afford to ball your car up, maybe another sport would be more appropriate. btw--- jupe, still would like you to go for a ride with me ( dave K )

Don't take this as a personal flame, but I'm guessing you don't drive on the track (DE's or otherwise) based on your view. As soon as people start "going after" someone that had an incident with them on the track in a DE, DE's are dead and we can all sit at home and pretend to drive on an XBOX 360 instead. I trust you've read through the countless posts above from the track guys that have chimed in since this was cross posted to the DE/Racing forum. As was said multiple times above, if you can't afford to walk away from your car no matter who is "at fault", please do the rest of us a favor and stay home.

The death of personal liability!! I think he should go after Porsche because the cars breed aggression!... now I KNOW I need to kill my subscription to this inane discussion.

Anytime we can coordinate! 38D is trying to convince me to sign up for NNJR WG in Aug, so you might see me there (though likely just for Sat/Sun).

Don't go after the BMW driver, his pockets aren't deep enough. Go after BMW for making a car that can't stay with a 996 without crashing. Go after his parents for making him (maybe that was a mistake too, and you should always be sued for your mistakes). Oh, and on the way home, stop by McDonald's for a nice hot coffee...

On the bright side, the damage is plastic only and the beautiful metal fenders are untouched. Heck, living here in Manhattan, replacing/repainting the front and or rear bumpers every year or two is just something I've gotten used too. But man, I'd be nuts if the metal had been bent. Fortunately, again, yours wasn't. As for liability, it's a track. Life throws you lemons...make lemonade. You're alive, he's alive. If it were me, I'd step up and pay for the damage I caused to another car. But then again, my father raised me with a deep set of values, and I can afford to pay for my mistakes.

Keep it on the streets, Fellas.. lol!

Glad no one was hurt! I have State Farm and they will NOT cover your car if it is driven off road. They consider a race track off road. I also have been shopping around and no insurance company I can find will cover a car off road such as a race track. Also timed events are considered racing and not covered. I was just about to purchase the track insurance for DE's that has been talked about on here but now that guy left the company that was doing this DE track insurance and the whole thing seemed rather flaky the way it was laid out anyway.

If asking the guy that admitted to crashing into my expensive car for help fixing it is what's wrong with this country, we're in real trouble. I've already suggested that a perfectly good solution is that the wrecked M3 would probably cover the cost of repairs to the OP's car, so if nothing else, we know that we're talking about a person that truly does have something to offer. Stepping foot onto the grounds of a track doesn't absolve you from all personal liability, and while I'm not a lawyer, I'm not sure someone can sign over their "right to sue", if you will, to a third party. In any case, I guess I'm not quite as willing to shrug my shoulders and forget about the incident as some seem to be.

Sorry for OT but it reminds me of a story I herd not too long ago about the father of a pro athlete suing everybody for his son's death. Son had too much to drink in a bar, son takes off with his car, son too drunk and swerves on the road, son hit tow truck helping a car on the side of the road and dies. Now father is suing bar for making son drunk and letting him drive, father is also suing stranded car on the side of the road and tow truck company for being there.

THEN FOR GOD'S SAKE STAY AWAY FROM THE TRACK The rules are very clear. You have zero expectiation of anyone else paying you anything even if they are completely at fault. The only people who are even coming close to suggesting otherwise are those who have never set foot on a track, or at least if they have they have not read the waiver and are not paying attention to what all the track rats know. Could you push the legal arguments and challenge the waiver? SURE, nothing is 100% foolproof in the legal arena, but you would do so at the expense of the sport that we all love. Please, keep driving the p-car to starbucks and stay away from the tracks . . .

I believe that's the norm for track folks, at least from my limited experience from friends of mine.

I agree, lets introduce more civil suits. It won't result in increased track costs and or insurance premiums. Those costs are too low as it is.

I think that the response to the question asked in this Posting has been great except that we are starting to deviate to from the original question. I have no intension of suing anyone; I feel that going after someone in court over this incident would be terrible. The saddest thing is that I am sure that one of our fellow lawyers is trying to email me now letting me know I have rights, and I might even be emotionally distressed by this incident. Suing does ruin it for everyone and filing an insurance claim only makes things worse. I think that there is also a clear difference between the racers and DE guys. The racers crash more often and wrecking become a little more common. The DE guys like to keep there car waxed so when incidents occur they ask questions. As for having a car that you can just throw away I would be hard pressed to find anyone that has that a vehicle they do not care about. On the other hand does anyone have a rear bumper for a 996?

I agree with the above. I race a NA 944 that if its gets totalled I walk away (if I can walk) and look for a new car no matter how the incident happened. I use my 996TT for DE's and mostly instructing but feel the same way, **** happens on the track all the time no matter the event no matter the run group, YOU are responsible for YOUR own car no matter what the situation. You are kidding yourself if you think someone who was dumb enough to hit you on the track will be dumb enough to pay up. Although, on an aside, if I made a pilot error and caused an incident I would feel horrible, I know most people on the track when I am driving and I would try to pay "my share" if I could. My 2 cents and that's all its worth! tom

It hurts the racers to have their cars wrecked for them (or even if they wreck them themselves). Don't get me wrong. It sucks. That said, we all have to realize that high performance driving is risky to equipment (as is driving it on the road). If you were on the road and you saw someone driving too closely to you, you could slow down, pull over, and get them by you. You can do EXACTLY the same thing in DEs. If it is your daily driver or you simply like the car too much, dial it back and get those who are too close to you around you as soon as possible. It will not guarantee that you will have no incidents, but you can manage the risk to a larger degree than most realize. I am truly, sincerely, sorry about what happened to you. I wish the BMW driver had the means to pay, and the willingness to do so. Nevertheless, I am very glad that you would not consider suing (and I am an attorney).

From my limited experience, the difference in percentages in incidents between DE guys and racers is much smaller than you would think.

Your'e supposed to ask the questions before you register for a DE, not after an incident

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BS! You haven't seen my ITB car! Under $300 invested (car was free), and it runs on free used Spec Miata tires. Out of my way, I'm comin' through! +1mil on not driving what you can't toss in the trash can. Hell, I probably wouldn't pay to remove this car from the track! Actually, it's undergoing restoration right now. I'm investing $50 to scrape off the white paint (comes right off with a putty knife) and giving it a fresh silver Krylon finish and new decals! David

I have been hit twice at DE's durning my 21 years of on track driving. (DE & Race) The first person could afford to buy the better half of the east coast but did not offer to pay and I didn't ask. It's the risk I took by going on the track. The 2nd person hit me at NHIS, had insurance and offered to pay. His insurance company denied the claim based on me signing the waiver. I ran it by an attorny I know and he said it would be an uphill battle to win in court, so I paid again to repair my car. I have no regets.

SAABs - You gotta love em!! I like your number mod from 15 to 35! And think of all the weight you'll lose with the putty knife!! Now that's racin'

I'm sorry for your incident. I'm glad no one was hurt. Please do not get the impression that all BMW schools are run poorly because that is not the case. Different regions run their events differently but as a whole, the instructors and quality of the schools are higher than many events that I have seen in my region. It is unfortunate that you had that experience with their school. Pete

Ok, I'm gonna stick my neck out here for a minute... Sure, the BMW driver was apologetic and all, and he was claiming he was following close behind you to see what line you were taking, but I think there's a bit of BS flying in those stories... Let's look at the situation: nmercier853 was driving a Porsche at a BMW club event. Probably holding his own in his run group. Mr. BMW-M3 probably didn't like the fact that there was a Porsche in front of him, and wanted to do something about it. Perfect environment for the dreaded "red mist" to cultivate. So I don't think it was more about "I deserve to be infront of you so I'm gonna ride your bumper whenever I can" rather than "I want to learn your line." So when he tried to keep up with you (and attempt to get a pass), he was driving over his limits, and crashed. AFTER the fact, it is very easy to claim "I was following you in order to learn your line." Besides, if I want to see what line you're taking, I'm going to hang back a little in order to get a better view... Edit - and one more thing -- the M3 line and the 996 line will be a little different, given the difference in the configuration of the two vehicles. So if he was trying to learn the proper line for his car, he would have been better off following another 3-series BMW... -Z-man.

First of all, sorry for the misfortune and the inconvenience this is causing you. I decided to purchase a 951 for the exact reason as stated above. IF I do get involved in an incident, I would rather have the 951 damaged over the 996. I knew what the repercussions would be if I damaged either or and made my decision. My 2 cents

But Zoltan . . . why bother focusing on blame in a "no fault" situation? Since nobody has an obligation to pay for anyone else's car, even if they are completely at fault, the issue of fault is irrelevant. If the other driver is the type who both has the character to take responsibility and the ability to pay, then the issue of arguing over blame is irrelevant. On the other hand, if the driver lacks either or both, the issue of arguing over blame again is irrelevant.

Guys, If you take your car out on a track YOU assume the risk, PERIOD. If you want to have your street insurance cover it, go for it. If you want to have special track insurance, go for it. However NEVER NEVER NEVER expect anyone else to pay for damge to your car be in race or DE. I have been doing DE and racing for 8-9 years and for the most of them I have been driving an old dedicated track car I bought for $1200 and is worth maybe 10k after I built it myself. If it gets bent or wadded up then so be it. I drive that car since it is what I CAN AFFORD to walk away from. I can't afford to walk away from a wadded up GT3 and that is why I don't drive one. Don't expect me to pay for YOU risking a 100k car. I certainly don't want another driver to hit, me but if it happens it happens. The MOST I ask for is a "I am sorry" if appropriate. I don't care if the other driver is rich like Bill Gates or is so poor he lives in his track car. My car is my nickel. This applies to racing AND DE. If you are afraid of damaging your car at a DE don't go. If you can't afford to write it off and walk away make sure you have track insurance or just don't go. Expecting anything more from the "other driver" is not right at any DE. Now when it comes the BMW club, I always hear that BMWCCA events are well organzied tightly controlled events. Also the idea that they let "anything" on track is a non issue. I do alot of events with NASA and they do let anything on track. Guess what. Carnage does not happend because a GT3 passes a subaru Legacy wagon. If the drivers are smart like they should be all these cars can co-exist on the track safely at one time. In fact a 996 driver just make need to give a point by to ratty old Honda Civic. If driven well those cars can be quite fast. Also if you want to sue any other driver in a DE for "hitting" you please go home and NEVER attend a DE again. If you can't get the idea of it being "your" responsibility irrespetive of the situation DE is not for you. Leave it to the rest of us that understand that.

I can't imagine that it would be as much as repairing the car in question. That said, some of you guys are saying that you shouldn't take your car on a track if you can't afford to walk away from it dollar-wise, but recoil at the price of track admission or what it would do to the sport. It's an expensive hobby; I don't think anyone is denying that. In any case, it wasn't my car involved, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. I don't choose to race my 996 in any fashion, so I'm glad I won't have to worry about the same situation with my car.

Todd - I'm not trying to assign responsibility, just speculating on why the M3 drover was so intent on sticking to nmercier853's tail. I'm simply not buying the "I was on your tail to observe your line" bit. That's all. And I do agree with the consensus that you alone are responsible for the well-being of your car. That said, if I cause damage to someone else's car, and I can't fully pay for all the repairs, I think any gesture of help goes along way -- perhaps offering to pay at least for the body parts that need replacement, or even helping the person find a way home, or find a good body shop, or even running around the coordinating everything for the person. A little kindness goes a long way... -Z-man.

I can afford the entry fees, but only just. One thing I love about this sport is that by selecting a cheap car I can reduce my costs to level I can manage. I don't believe I should spend a DIME subsidizing some on track in 50-80k car. The fees right now are acceptable given their sources. They are generated from two major sources 1) Track rental & requried safety support. Ambulance, corner workers etc 2) Organization Level insurance. (This does NOT cover car damage in anyway) We all use the same track and pay the same for what we use.

That is not neccessarily true. Just prior to the recent DE event that I attended in WA, I decided to take a close look at the 'fine print' in my insurance (which in my case is Progressive). The following is EXCLUDED from coverage: "Any pre-arranged event on a temporary or permanent racing surface". Now in my case the event was certainly pre-arranged, and it was held on a permanent racing surface - so with Progressive, I was definately flying solo.

OK here's a scenario for you. Guy goes to a DE and someone hits him. He goes to his insurance company and the company pays him but sues the guy who hit him. Now you either pay up or have to pay possible high legal fees. I still say the whole thing is not clean because any jerk can sue you if he wants to.

Hey, this is America. You can sue for millions if your dry cleaner loses your pants, but that does not mean you will win.

Here's another perspective. I would be tempted to pay for damage I believe I caused to another car, but my attorney would go nuts if I did. Here�s why; let�s say I come up to you after the incident and we agree that the damage is $3k, so I write you a check. I�ve now admitted fault. You turn out to be a jerk and decide to sue me later for more damages, pain and suffering or whatever. In court you�re going to produce the check I wrote as my admission of being at fault. I�m now probably going to lose the law suit and be on the hook for serious $. I�m not saying this is what would happen in this case, but just one more thing to keep in mind in our litigious society.

Hey, who you callin' a jerk?

I agonized over this liability issue in DE's for several years. Now I race so I know there's no "fault" , I know the potential liability, and I do it anyway because going 150 mph in a Porsche is fun! I just had my 1st bill for a bonehead move(by a BMW M3, btw) and it hurt...real bad!! I'll be at another race this weekend...quess I got over it

Good point. We live in sad times -- when you run the risk of losing a lawsuit because you thought you did the honorable thing. I suppose I can still offer to help as long as I have the person I'm giving money to sign a liability waiver.... Then again, the fact that the event waiver was signed by both myself and other person, I can argue that my monetary gift was a donation to a charity... or something like that. -Z-man.

Before I read this response, I was on the middle about this thing, but thinking the BMW guy should've paid at least something. Now, I'm the opposite. This guy's right - it may be the BMW driver's fault that the accident happened, but it's not his fault that the cost to repair is big $$$ (just an example here - I know the real situation wasn't that bad). Hell, now I'm not sure I would pay for someone's fixes if I caused an accident. Yeah, I might give them a $100 or buy him and his friends a round of drinks but I'm not paying for some guy's Ferrari F430 $1000 brake light at just because he was willing to risk it. We know we can't count on your street insurance or the other guy paying. So, there are basically two options - either you are willing to have your car possibly trashed or you get track insurance. That's pretty much the whole thing, right?

Bingo.

Very true. The problem is that by the time it finally gets in front of a judge to get thrown out of court, the legal fees have already financially ruined the person being sued in addition to the ulcer from worrying about it for months.

Quick question, what racing circuit driver/team pays for damages to other racers who get tangled in collisions?

I personally will never pay anyone for damages caused on the track irrelevent of who is at fault, and obviously will expect the same from others.

Two words. 1) Tort 2) Reform

Those two words would be entirely unnecessary if individuals, and their attorneys, would just pay attention to two other words: "Be Decent"

From reading the "Going Faster" book, it sounds like they implemented that in the Skip Barber series. Whether that is still the operating philosophy, I have no idea.

I totally agree. Unfortuantely, decency, manners, and personal responsibility all seem to be on the decline.

Believe it or not, that's all I was suggesting with my posts regarding "going after" the other driver. I don't know that I ever really said that the guy should be sued; I would just be looking to encourage the other guy to "be decent" about it at the very least, especially considering that it's clear he was lying about having the means to take care of it.

In my opinion, one's duty to be decent is not, or at least should not be, dependent upon others being decent. It is easy to be decent when everyone else is being decent as well. The true test of character comes when you need to decide how to act when others around you are being less than decent. It is at that point that it is more important than ever to be decent. I can imagine exceedingly few circumstances under which a lawsuit would be appropriate in the context of a DE or a race. That's all I am saying. P.S. I am far from an angel myself and I am not suggesting that what we "should" do is easy, or that the standard I articulated is easy for me to live up to either.

Did I log onto the philosophy site by mistake? My head hurts...If you are expecting someone's decency to pay for your car after an incident then other sports beckon.

Well, my point was exactly the opposite: you should do everything you can do not to sue someone at a DE or race so that you do not ruin it for the rest of us. THAT is the point.

Think about it for a while...you're racing Skippy's cars...Skippy just wants to get paid for any damage that the 'chilluns do to his cars.

YEP!

Plain and simple. 1. If you play soccer, you must assume risk that a ball is going to hit you or that you could get kicked...intentionally or unintentionally. 2. If you play racquetball, you must assume .... You get my point...if you want to play, you MUST be willing to pay. Sorry about the troubles...

I assume you signed a waiver at the track. You have no legal recourse. The doctrine is "Assumption of Risk." We are all self insured on the track. If someone else hits you, they are not responsible for damage to your car. If that is not acceptable, driver's education is not for you.

Let's see just how many times the exact thing can be said over and over.

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Waivers can be over-ridden in the courts, provided you have a good lawyer... -Z-man.

but not always, and perhaps not even frequently, particularly when the defendant has a good lawyer

After reading all 7 pages of this there is not much left to say that has not already been said. I will offer a different perspective though. I am lucky enought to have a father who also loves racing and got my brother and I involved since we have been able to drive. We have progressed from a 1971 914-6 that cost about $15k to a 997Cup that cost about 200k. Since I have never been able to replace any of the cars that I race I have always driven at 90%(atleast most of the time). I also know that there are some things that you cannot control and sh*t happens. Every weekend when the car comes out of the trailer my father writes its value down to $0. If we make it thru the weekend with no major damage it gets put back on the asset side. I feel this is the way you have to go racing in order to enjoy the sport. About 5 years ago my father was doing an enduro in a friends MGB-GT, he was trying to get out of the way of a 911 and got loose on the marbles went off and rolled the car 5 times. The *** that he was racing with was more concerned about his car then if my father was alive and ok. Other then a few stains in his race suit my dad walked away wrote the guy a check for the car and never raced with him again. Last month there may have been an incident with another car but there was no major damage to either car so we just kept driving. The other driver came up and offered to replace the bumper but we declined because thats just part of the sport that we all enjoy and sh*t happens.... Just some opinions that pretty much agree with everything that has already been said 100 times. Chris

You still reading this monotony? I stopped days ago when the same things kept getting written... I just stopped in and the same things are still being repeated. I was hoping to see that the car was in for repair by now.

My apology in advance for extending this painful thread but I came in late and have a different angle: How exactly did this hit happen? I drive NHIS a fair amount, mostly in SCCA/ITE (put me in the racer "you're on your own" group) and I can't visualize how the other guy could be following a car down the main straight and into turn 1 (only place he could touch 115 with an M3), lose the car, hit the wall and then still carry enough speed to hit the car he was following? I don't want to rehash a bad memory but I'm just curious how it happened. As far as BMWCCA events go (at least at NHIS), they are a bit schitzophrenic. They seem even more oriented toward the "E" part of DE than PCA is with a mandatory first ride with an instructor (that didn't work well with my ITE car) each day no matter what group/skill you are and mandatory class sessions for all groups. On the other hand they have had "unrestricted passing" at some events where you can take a point by anywhere for drivers who attend a short slide show. This was touted as a small step toward club racing.

All very interesting.......my comment is that if you are putting your car on the track you assume some risk. Tracking a Porsche is what I would consider a "big boy" sport....not for the faint at heart, nor for those who cannot accept reposibility for things that occur on a track....ie...wrecks caused by others. You know going into it that some bonehead might get you and if you do not like that, then you stay off the track........it must be consistent....ie....people repair their own rides, even if it is the fault of another......I heard several cars went off the track at ATL recently when a GT3 blew an oil line....apparently the car had problems the day before that they could not locate, then pop goes the line with several cars off the track.....should the GT3 owner pay for all of the damage? Racing, tracking, etc. is a very high risk sport from many perspectives........if you cannot assume the risk, then stay off the track.

The only thing I would add is that not all BMW DEs are poorly organized and/or run. The ones I have been to are as well run as any other PCA or Audi DE. Furthermore, their instructor training program is as thorough as any I've seen, and I've been throught a PCA and Audi program. The accident is very unfortunate. This DE may have been very poorly run. However, it does not follow generally that the BMW Club puts on poor DEs.

I'll say something new: the M3 driver was a jerk, before and after the incident.

I just read through this whole thing. I've now been in 2 situations first hand along with witnessing many incidents over the last 12 years I've been going to various tracks. What I've learned top 10 (sorry to re-iterate some stuff but I have some new points too): 1) Can't stand the idea of your car getting damaged? DON'T be at the track then! 2) Do not assume people pay attention to the waiver and you might have to remind them. Never expect or demand someone else to pay for damages to your own car regardless of circumstances when at any track. 3) The comment someone made ealier about 'a little kindness goes a long way' does not always hold true regardless of who might be at fault (which also depends on perspective, etc.). Case in point, I was trying to be nice and I provided the name and phone number of body shop which would provide close to employee discount on parts and labor and it was assumed by the other party that I would automaticly pay for getting his car fixed (I refuse to go into any more detail here or claim any fault from either party BTW). 4) Definition of 'accident' is clear as is 'no fault' waiver but many will argue it through the end of time. 5) Many people are delusional or just plain arrogant to think they can go their whole life going to DEs or any track event and never be involved in an incident. 6) Don't just be prepared to pay for your own car, but know the track rules and be ready to have to pay tow fees, armco fees, tirewall replacement fees and even other things you might never dream of like the turf (aka exotic golf quality grass at Barber), or even getting a bill for repaving a portion of track! (If heard and seen many things happen from being charged for grass to replacing a tire wall and no it wasn't me that had to pay but I know it can happen and probably will eventually). 7) Remember that the majority of people do tend to share the same philosophy at the track and would never once expect or demand someone else pay for damages regardless of fault but a few 'rotton apples' stand out and might end up ruining a moment, etc. 8) If you feel unsafe at an event, communicate your thoughts to those in charge (try to be constructive instead of condescending) and try to help make it better by offering to help (like maybe you need to offer to give a talk in the classroom or set up some cones for aids on the track, etc.) 9) Invest your hard earned money in safety equipment because it goes a long way! (basics like fire extinguister, harnesses, seats, hans, roll bar or whatever you can afford, etc.). If you had an incident at the track and you were able to drive home and are uninjured, you had an 'oh well' day! if you can't drive the car home but you are uninjured, be happy that the safety equipment worked and your alive to enjoy another day at the track! 10) Don't let an incident stop you from enjoying what you love to do. Learn from it and 'get back on the horse' so-to-speak and go out and HAVE FUN!

I was hit once at the track event (in my corvette) That's the reason I don't track my C4S. It was the other guys fault, he drove into me (I had an in car camera and had it on tape). Luckily the damage was cosmetic and I was able to fix it myself.