996 Engine Replacement

I have owned 6 P-cars over the last 20 years (most recently a 95 993) and only recently moved to a 91 NSX. While I do like a lot about the NSX, I began to feel the pull to own another Porsche a couple of months ago. With the budget I've set, I had decided it was finally time to move out of the air-cooled era and give the 996 a try. So I started my research using this board as I've done in the past. I must admit I'm very concerned about the many discussions about engine failures, and comments like most of the 99-01's have probably had a engine swap, while other's say it's a 5-10% failure. Then I hear the 3.6L have cured the problems and then along comes the thread "broken Porsche, broken heart" which shows up on the new engine!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. What are the true costs of an engine swap with remanufactured engine? Has anyone had recent experience? Did Porsche help/subsidize the cost for older vehicles? Was this only if purchased from a Porsche dealer? I had decided the 996 was my next vehicle, but now.... I'm not so sure. Keith

Here we go again. There are many opinions about this topic, but let me tell you about MY rebuild experience. My car had 53,000 miles and the cylinder #1 cracked and the engine needed replacing. The car was 6 years old. I personally spent around $8K for a (non-Porsche) rebuilt engine and swap. The dealer was looking at around $11K plus $1000-3000 pad for ups and extras. Things that **MAY** need replacing once they are in there like the clutch. Replacement from the dealer carries a 2 year warranty, but I was planning on selling the car when this happened, so I decided I did not need/want the warranty. I am sure I would have got most of that money back when I sold the car, but by then I did not want the car, I was disgusted with PCNA, and just wanted it to be over. Also, I was worried that I might have to spend another $8-11K in two years since, as you pointed out, they have not corrected the problems with the motors. And most of all, I do not feel that ANY car should need a new motor at this mileage unless I was racing and missed a shift, over rev'd, or let it run out of oil. Others who have not had to replace their motors will tell you how "cheap" $11K is for a rebuilt Porsche motor, and this may be true historically. However, when you buy a car for $43K, and sell it a year later for $33K after having put $8,000 into a rebuilt motor, I assure you it does not feel cheap. So I guess you really have to decide. I have a buddy who has a 2002 and now that we are starting to see some failures with the newer models, he is scared to keep his past the CPO warranty. He is looking at an extended warranty for about $2500 to cover him once the CPO ends. From my favorite marquis, that is sad - sad that I have no confidence in any model except the GT or turbo lines. And that is what I recommend you and anyone else who asks for my OPINION buys, a Turbo or GT. Flame away.

2000 - 92k miles, same motor

Although the incidence of IMS is low, it should be zero and unfortunately it is not. The two best options in order are either find a 2005 997 or a CPO 996 as new as possible. In the long run, I think you'd be happier with a 997 C2 for not much more money and it would probably wind up costing you the same or less considering resale. The S models are great but the "plain Jane" 997 is virtually the identical car for a lot less money and they depreciate faster. If you're buying new it would be silly not to opt for the S package, but for a used bargain the '05 997 C2 is tough to beat. Just my $.20 (adjustments made for inflation and gas prices).

Keith, You have a valid concern, though I think your numbers are a little inflated. Part of the problem, though, is that your guess is as good as mine, in that department. I speak as someone who had oil/coolant intermix on his '00. When Porsche replaced my engine (under CPO, thank god), I was content in feeling that my replacement motor would tick until the end of time. Why? It's built to higher standards than the originals, and I felt the odds of something like that occuring again were very, very small, and I just got unlucky. While thinking about my reply to this thread, something occured to me, though, that I'm going to post in another thread. Keep your eyes peeled That said, I think that if you can afford to replace the motor if it ever blows, don't hesitate for a second. The 996 is a wonderful car, and the only reason I regret buying mine was because it led me to sell my E24. It is a modern car, and does not feel like an air-cooled 911. But it is still a great car. If you can't afford a motor replacement, you *probably* should still go for it. Catastrophic problems can happen on any car, including the 964 and 993. As others have or will remark, 911 engine rebuilds for older models can be far more expensive. Personally, I feel your friend with the CPO is fretting for no reason, especially with a 3.6. You just have to decide if you're willing to accept that smidge of risk. CPO can be a wonderful thing. Justin

A 3.4 996 factory replacement motor with full 2 year unlimited mileage warranty costs $6500 from the factory. I don't know how many hours an install takes. I'm not sure about pricing on the 3.6 model. My 99 engine was replaced by PCNA at 50,222 miles under warranty in '02. "Coolant leaking out of left rear of vehicle. Engine Hydrolocked." She's been running like a champ ever since. Andrew

Actually, it's gone from $8k to $12k, and some dealers are now charging $15k I was speaking to Loren @ 911 Design about this very point the other month. He was lamenting the uplift in his base cost for a remanufactured engine unit so we got into a discussion about the M96 issues and costs. In his words 'the honeymoon period is over, Porsche are looking to charge a real-world price for these units and stop subsidizing them'.

I bought my 2002 996 with both eyes wide open. It's a cherry car, with a nice moderate 40K miles, a new clutch, a couple of RMS under it's belt, and exactly one year of CPO left. If the engine fails under CPO great, if it doesn't well I guess I have to buy a reman from Porsche don't I? I did *all* the research (much of it here) and believed then and now that the incidence of failure on the 3.6 litre cars is only a bit better than the incidence of failure on the 3.4 litre cars. One month after I bought it, GNR996, whom I work with, grenades the 3.6 in his 2003. hhhmmm. While considering a local 3.4 litre car with 90K miles on it I spoke to a senior certified Porsche shop man about engine life. He didn't (couldn't) come right out and say it, but it sounded like he had replaced more 3.4 litre motors than not over the previous 6 years. IMS failures topped the list. He did say the 3.6 litre cars were failing less frequently, but a 100% improvement from one per day to one per every other day is still pretty bad (numbers made up to make my point). There's lot's of guys on this board ready to deny that M96 engine failures are common, but out of all the people at my workplace with 996's 50% of them have had engine failures. BUT - I bought the 3.6 anyway remember. Why you ask? Because what the hell am I going to daily drive otherwise? My 911 was good as a weekend car only, the 993 cars are actually too nice to daily drive (and too expensive), the 964 would be an option, but frankly I don't like the looks. Forget front engined Porsches (nice but not for me), I'd rather drown in vomit than take a ride in a Cayenne, so what's left? BMW ? Audi ? Uughh. So I'm loving my 996 (really) and plan to drive it every day for the next 10 years at which point it will have 200K miles on it, and then I'll be the one bragging on this board how all I did was change the oil and put gas in it every once in a while. Trouble free motoring, that's my plan!

2000 Coup�, 102,000 miles, original motor, original clutch (but new water pump and new vacuum reservoir)

Thanks Jasper, can count on you for a laugh...... Afraid though I am so soured on the experience it will be an Audi for me. S4 perhaps. The fun of owning a Porsche goes beyond just the car itself. If this is the way I can expect to be treated ( like a nobody, and I am ) in the future, frankly expected better after lusting after pcars for all these years, I will find something else to keep me entertained. Clearly there will be further heart ache down the road, is shown by all the niggling troubles people seem to have with these cars. As soon as the car is returned to me it will be sold. I am sad of course that Porsche has let me down but live and learn. From the wait to the rental of a car it's all been bad. Porsche should be ashamed, very ashamed. And, yes I to went into this with my eyes wide open, but thought, wrongly it turns out if the worst happened it would be taken care of in a professional manner. So any local looking for a '03 C2 black/black PSM, Bose, sport seats, xeons and 18inch Carrara wheels keep watching here. The dream of owning a pcar for me has ended, will find another lust worthy vehicle... Happy motoring folks. Geoff

Wow 102,000 miles with original clutch!

That was a joke, right? I have trouble detecting sarcasm sometimes, so I'm asking.

My guess would be yes or he is around a bunch of unlucky people. Seems like the engine failure is around a high of 10% give or take down to something much lower. If I was to bet my money taking out all the initial engine changes for RMS issues because of the incorrect tool I would bet it is in the 5% +/- 2% category but that is purely subjective as are the facts most of the people throw around here. I am sorry for the unlucky people but I think this is WAY overrated on this site. IMHO

Yes, Jasper was joking... the two of us work together and both drive 996's. Mine broke, so the 50% line. Have not been happy with the way the failure has been handled by both the local p dealer or pcna hence the rant about selling my car.

99 996. 63K miles. Original everything, regular maintenance only. Runs like a champ!

If you're going to worry yourself sick about it, you might want to buy a different car. I've followed so many threads on this, and they all peter out the same way. The deal is, yes, there is a much higher statistical probability that your M96 engine will fail than for most other cars. People used to think that the 3.6 was 'fixed', but that's simply because there wasn't yet enough experience with the motor to collect the kind of anecdotal evidence you see here. Now, I think, the evidence is pretty clear that they're better, but not immune. I happen to think that the cost of a replacement is still surprisingly cheap. Moreover, if you sniff around in the real world, and not only online, you'll see that there have been situations where Porsche has been quite reasonable about replacement. Here in Canada, at least, the replacements are adjudicated individually, and they take into account things like service history etc. Over all, given these are near-exotic cars, the replacement cost is not the end of the world. If, for you it is, then again you should move on. I also happen to think that all the pissing and moaning about this, especially by people who haven't even had a failure, is a splendid way to see resale values continue to plunge. I love to drive my 996. I bought it knowing that this engine thing was an risk. But the price difference between it and a newer, 'safe' 911 was so great that you could almost fit a couple of new engines in there. And besides, if my motor fails, it won't bankrupt me. And in the meantime, I get to drive this fantastic, iconic car... as a member of what may be the last generation of humans who get to have 300hp automobiles as toys. If you want one more than you're worried, go find a well driven, well maintained 996 and have the time of your life. If you're worried more than you want one, don't . These were my thoughts as I waited in line at the Toyota dealer to talk about a new engine for my wife's RAV4 because of oil gelling. I had to wait because the service manager was having a shouting match with some guy about needing a new engine for his Sienna because of oil gelling. So I had time to think. See, life is full of risks. Some are worth it.

Well said Bruce.

T2 has 140k on the original clutch on his 996TT, I think it was (not sure of the exact number)

I have a 2004 that I bought new at the end of 2005. It was a leftover car, but whatever. anyway, i had engine replacement after 5k miles. I broke the car in just as directed, etc. However, after 3 falshing check engine lights and finally some testing that found metal in the oil filter Porsche replaced the engine. I now have about 5k miles on the new engine and couldn't be happier. To be clear on this many auto makers are going to engine replacement as standard procedure. BMW is not breaking down engines anymore. Toyota is having huge engine replacement issues with their engine sludge problem. Every car maker has a percentage of engine replacements. I think it is blown out of proportion honestly. Sure it completely sucks if you have no warranty, and have to foot the bill. However, I think anyone who chose not to buy a 996 or 997 because some of the cars have had engine replacement is short changing themselves. I know it seems like a huge deal because the engine is obviously the key component of the car, and to have it replaced seems so drastic. I thought this too, but when looking into it further, talking with lots of mechanics from many car makers I was comfortable with the process. If you like the car buy it. If you can get one with warranty I would certainly recommend that as the best avenue for protection, but I wouldn't not buy this car solely on the basis there have been replacements. The 996 has been the most successful 911 in the 40+ year history of the car. That isn't because it sucked. Get one!

Maybe the cost has gone up in the last 4 mos, but dealer pricing on a 3.4l factory crate engine was 6500 at the end of Jan '07. I do not know what changes have occurred in the last 4 mos, but previously anything over 6500 was just stealer markup. Andrew

so i just called sunset porsche (Factory Porsche Parts, Tequipment and Selection (Boutique) All at Dealer Cost Plus 15% Handling and Shipping Cost -- No Sales Tax! Phone: [phone removed] for MY 2001 3.4 price is $7998 with core exchange, plus shipping. and labor in my dealership is 12 hours.

sounds to me the 3.4/6 engine is cheaper than the S54 BMW M engine which is closer to the GT1 engine in the GT3 at $20K.... nudge nudge

I do appreciate the feedback even though this topic has been discussed many times over. As I've said, except for my recent departure to the NSX, I've driven a Porsche of some sort (including four 911 variants) for the past 20 years and each has had a fair number of HPDE's. I love the general feel of the car as well as the overall quality of the components. I've done most of my basic maintenance such as brakes, oil changes, suspension, exhaust, etc. I've always tried to buy the most car I could get for the money and made sure that the car had been looked after with proper service records. I felt like this would lower the chance of a major expense. Maybe because of this or maybe just luck, I never experienced any unexpected major repairs, certainly not to the tune of a $8k-$15k engine replacement. It is concerning to think that following my past strategy is of very little protection against this potential issue and even looking for a low mileage doesn't seem to decrease the risk. In this case it almost seems as I should look for a lower price car with higher mileage and budget for an engine swap. One other clarification. Is there a consensus that if I do get a Porsche remanufactured engine, that the problem areas Intermediate Shaft and cracked cylynder lining been upgraded to reduce the chance of a reoccurence or is it another ticking time bomb. Thanks again for the comments. Keith

Intermediate Shaft: still possible. Intermediate Shaft is a rear failure, it could occur on ANY M96 engine, including TT & GT2/3 cracked cylynder: no very likely. agine, porsche has a problem during the late 90s, and the machine has been fixed

Yup, they are not immune to it. See this post in the 996 turbo forum .

Just .02 more on that: Remember that an engine failure is a maybe, while depreciation is a certainty. If you plan to keep the car for a long, long time, then there's a case to be made for buying the most recent example you can find. But if there's any chance you might swap it for something else in the next few years, you're financially not ahead at all by doing that. Whatever you MIGHT spend on an engine for an older car, you WILL spend on depreciation for a newer one. It's more a question of whether you can handle surprises than whether you'll spend the dough.

Forget the 996, it�s a great car, but believe me the risk of having a blown engine any day, will cut the pleasure of having one, forget about if it really happens because you�ll loose all the confidence on this car. Even the rebuild engines are blowing now that some of them have run some big miles. It�s a shame , but it�s the true, M96 are prone to engine failures. Mine had 50000Km on the clock always assisted when it blown leaving me with a 8500 euros bill to pay. Out of three friends with 996 Carreras , two of them had blown engines and the third sold the car due to fear of a blown engine because he had already three RMS replacements. Get the 997, it seems to be more reliable on this regard, but if you want the real bullet proof Porsche engine, get the 996GT3 or 996TT , those are indeed the most stronge engines Porsche have based on the M64 motor. J.Seven

This 996TT has a stage II engine tuning kit. Anyway I wont say this was the cause for the engine failure. J.Seven

So the way to avoid potentially paying ten grand for a new engine is to definitely pay thirty grand more for a newer car? Even though this doesn't completely eliminate the risk? Hmmm... interesting logic. Hey, I love the 997, and if you can or choose to spend at that level for a 911, go for it. I'm just doubtful of the logic of this as an alternative for someone who was shopping for a 996. Just saying is all.

1999 c2. 96K same motor AND supercharged for ~25K. daily driver and tracked heavily...no lame 1/4 mile sprints for me . leakdown and compression test at 95K. all normal. no RMS leaks (thanks to the LWF). i run 0w-40 fall, winter, spring and 10w-40 in the summer @100+ temps. i track my car year round with at least 30 track days/year. oil changes every 4th track day. replaced coolant reservoir, clutch master and slave cylinders, clutch and flywheel at ~60K

how is the M engine closer to the gt1 engine? it's a wetsump with 2 oil pumps. the e46M and the m96 are both wetsump. the m96 engine is a horizontal flat six so it has more in common with the gt1 block

Excellent points. Definitely budget related. I tend to set my inflation adjusted budget to under $40K. As my other toy a 1989 BMW SPEC E30 race car (206K miles, 4 years of 5-7 track weekends per year with only a single broken brake caliper as the only non-consumable which has failed.... what a 6-cylinder) tends to eat up consumables such as tires, pads, GASOLINE, money... From a price point, the 996 seemed to fit the category, especially with an aero kit. While I would certainly like to get into a 997 or maybe even a Cayman or my ultimate 993TT/996TT they are all still several years away from reaching that point. For me, there isn't much else out there with the feel, heritage and unique looks of a Porsche ... but I'm really concerned with the thoughts of engine replacements. Maybe I will go back to the late model 993/993 2S. Keith

then get ready to pay a PREMIUM for the 993 2/4S. they are commanding prices over a 996. late model 993's are actually more expensive than early model 996's

Well I have to concur with you, for someone looking to spend a certain amount for a 996, 997 is far from an option due to big price difference. Well, maybe a CPO car (which comes with warranty) with the possibilty of extending the warranty is the ONLY reliable option. J.Seven

Sorry to dissapoint about the 997 motor but when I went to the dealer to inspect my 996 replacement motor, prior to installation, guess what was sitting in a crate right next mine? Yep, you guessed it, a 997 replacement motor waiting to be installed

You are the first I have ever heard this from on this forum or any forum. Who has blown a second engine? That would be some pretty bad luck.

I was talking to a Porsche dealership service manager a couple of weeks ago. He told me he had never replaced an engine on a CP0 996. I know a few people who have 996's and none had to replace an engine. One did have to replace a transmission after a couple of weeks when new. I am up to 84,000 miles on original engine, clutch, and RMS. And it is a 1999

I believe it. you only hear about this because of the internet. Maybe there are some who know people who know people who know people that know two people that had known two people that knew a person that had an engine failure. I am the only person I know personally that had an engine failure. The only others I know are on this forum. Buy a 996 and enjoy it! (but dont forget to get the CPO so if you are one of those people you get a nice new engine).

Used 993 will eventually pass all used 996 in price. That's why Porsche redesigned the 997 to look like a 993. But everything wears out and maintenance on a 993 will eventually catch up with you.

996 Blown engines is not an internet illusion , they are for real. After a 10 minutes search in a German site who has many 996 for sale RIGHT NOW, I could find more than ten 996 for sale with blown engines. If you think this is normal, I don�t. Nowadays it�s easier to get a rebuild engine from Porsche that a hose for you air condition system, simply because they blow like hotcakes, and Porsche have dozens and dozens sitting there, waiting to be export all over the world. Just call your Tech and tell him you need a new engine, he will get one for you in two to three days, it�s just the shipping time. Shame on you Porsche. 996 with blown engine for sale Another 996 with blown engine More 996 engine blow up for sale Motor blown at 63000Km the usual Km blow up. Thsi 996 is aldo for sale Motor blown with 75000Km. car is for sale too Another one for sale with blown motor. This is for sale too, 2000 model with blown engine at 84000Km This one blown at 69000Km For sale too. Blown with 5700Km . For sale And for those who think the 3.6 liter is safe, well , think again, here�s one with blown engine. 3.6L version whit blown engine I�ll stop for now, but for those interested I can show you many more 3.6L engine blown outs too. There was a well know British magazine who had two long term test on a 2000 Carrera 996 and a 2003 996 Carrera 4S, both blown their engine with few miles. For those interested I can post the scan with all story. Guys from the magazine loved both cars but were surprised by the weakness shown by these engines. J.Seven

996 Blown engines is not an internet illusion , they are for real. After a 10 minutes search in a German site who has many 996 for sale RIGHT NOW, I could find more than ten 996 for sale with blown engines. If you think this is normal, I don�t. Nowadays it�s easier to get a rebuild engine from Porsche that a hose for you air condition system, simply because they blow like hotcakes, and Porsche have dozens and dozens sitting there, waiting to be export all over the world I agree that it's troubling that there are lots of 996s with blown engines, but you overstate your case when you state that they are blowing like hotcakes. Porsche built far more 996s than any other 911 iteration. If only two or three percent of all of the 996s have blown engines, you would have a numericaly huge number of blown engines, but there would still be 97% without blown engines which is not a horrific number for cars that are typically driven so hard. Unfortunately none of us has the data to make an accurate judgement, and therefore it's prematue to be making judgements based on purely anecdotal information. For what it's worth I talked to Service Managers at the two Porsche Dealers nearest to me, and although they refused to put a percentage on the number of 996 engines that they replaced, they both used the words "very rare" when describing the number of blown 996 engines.

Anedoctal is your last statment. Would you expect Porsche tech to say they blown at a monthly rate????? I agree with you,l there�s no reliable info about blown rate on 996, but there�s also something called comun sence, and I�ve seen to many 996 blow up all over the place including my own, two closed friends, and also some at Porsche club (one of them blown in Estoril circuit on Parabolica curve due to oil starvation) to see there�s indeed a flaw in these poor M96 engines. Anyway it�s great to see some of you have high miles 996 running on the first engine and gearbox J.Seven

not just Porsche... http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...705310379/1148

hamilton, Toyota is handling this very differently than Porsche did. Well, hopefully, at lleast.

After the class action led to their 'goodwill' gesture, their generosity ended. Now, they blame owners for waiting too long before the first oil change on their new cars.