996 vs. M3 - on steering feel alone

Forget driving position, cockpit layout, corner speeds, flatness in cornering, the shape of the steering wheel, oversteer/understeer, all that "other" stuff. The 996 has the better, lower driving position for performance driving, we know that. It "feels" more like a sports car. I want to hear from those who have significant seat time in both cars on the steering feel alone. Things like: - Response/quickness of turn-in - Weight at various speeds - Tactile feedback (road vibration/information) - Effort feedback (proper weighting IE: linear weighting increase as g-forces build in corner) - Overall steering SMILE FACTOR

cutting to the chase: smile factor favors 996 M3 will leap out of the starting line with more push on your back. But once you get moving and especially start steering around, 996 wins. This is my opinion: from a current M3 owner who's checked out several 996s and looking to buy one sometime. The only nit to pick with the 996 steering: the cross-section shape of the steering wheel of the M3 is beefier, more robust and solid feeling in the hand. 996 has a slimmer, triangular cross section steering wheel, which is not as robust feeling initially. Note this is only a small nit that does not overcome my preference for the 996 and has nothing to do with the weight, feedback, etc. (all of those favor the 996).

Also, I go into this assuming that either car would be better in steering feel than my 07 C6 Z51. That car is a blast in a straight line and can take corners at breakneck speed with very neutral and predictive handling, BUT it is isolated and lacking in feel.

Are you fricking kidding me........ The 8 page thread on this same page is not enough for you? How about any of the dozens of M3 threads that are easily available with any search? Better still, if your really curious did a test drive of both cars cross your mind? This should be a fun thread.......bring on the M3 trolls.................................................................. ........................................................................ ........................................................................ .......................................yet again.

IMO a 3 mile test drive on public roads, with a salesman in the passenger seat, is NOT going to tell someone like myself what I need to know about steering feel. I would need a good half hour to an hour AT LEAST with a rather spirited drive through a nice scenic back road to know that. With the "mileage is money" mentality of most salesman, it just isn't going to happen. My question is very, very specific. Can you imagine how long it would take to get multiple takes on steering feel alone in those threads? I don't have time for that. This is a discussion forum. Things are repeated ad nauseum. That's the point. If you want information set in stone and never brought up again, visit a FAQ.

Yup, the 996 doesn't have a big engine sitting on top it's front tires to dampen the feel of the front wheels. O.k., thread over, enough threads about these two vs eachother - it's getting ridiculous.

Is it ridiculous when you consider someone is making a $40,000-$50,000 decision between them? Really surprised at the attitude towards this thread. If you guys are sick of reading these threads, don't open them up!

not ridiculous at all, but you gotta understand there have been a lot of threads comparing the m3 to the 996. i recently sold my e46 m3 for a c4s so here are my thoughts: -M3 steering feel is numb in comparison -C4s is heavier feel at all speeds - when i first took hold of the 911 i was flat out amazed at the better feel, but now i'm used to it so not as pronounced -i much prefer the shape and feel of the 996 steering wheel over the M3s... m3s is bigger and thicker, but i like the smaller and thinner (I have the OEM CF version FYI) because of the padding in the m3. doesn't feel as direct since it gives more. based on my experience, the 3.6 is torquier than the S54 engine... the gearing is definitely diff with the 3.6 being lazier... the S54 pulls hard as it rises up in revs whereas the 3.6 feels like it flattens out. the s54 engine is a gem, but steering feel, stick, sound, everything favors the 996 for PURE FUN. I would never ever go back to the M3, even the V8 coming up. it will never feel or sound right like a 911.

I have a 02 966 C4S and had an 03 M3 and three vettes. - 996 wins on steering feel hands down

What are you 16? You can't get more than a 3 mile drive with a USED car? If you are a serious purchaser that should not even be a problem in a new 997 Carrera S. In fact, the first time I ever drove an E46 M3 the dealer copied my license and handed me the keys (to a brand new car) and walked back to his office. Since your dealer seems to be jerking your chain I'll tell you the steering feel is not even close IMHO, (especially at the limit). However, what is worse than the steering feel is the big understeer the M exhibits (compaired to the 996). Finally, the stability control/traction control system in the M is very obtrusive. The Porsche system will allow a lot more slip before it cancels the fun. On the plus side you get a lot more room in the M3, a more comfotable ride (neither cars stock set-up is punishing) and a ton more storage space. Good luck letting some strangers on a forum make your decision. I still think you'd be much better off with a good test drive. Now I can sit back and watch the M3 groupies descend like flies...... This should be fun!

I have been given the keys to an RX8, 350Z, and sTi on a test drive. But when it came to a Lotus, BMW, or Porsche recently, no go. Perhaps there is a greater snobbery at these dealers? There is definitely attitude at the higher line dealers around here. Which is why I would never buy the car from any local BMW/Porsche dealers. I actually did once get an offer to drive a 2005 M3 for an hour on my own, came back a week later and the salesman had just quit! The new guy said "we can't do that anymore, for insurance reasons." Uh huh. I come in with a practically brand new 2007 Corvette, and state my EXTREMELY picky taste in cars and a need to familiize myself with driving dynamics before purchasing (usually knowing more about car than said salesman), and still the salesman comes with. Oh well, maybe I'll get a break one of these days.

damn ray chill out bud let me handle this ****

Ray S, First,I have a question for you, based on the above words of yours: Did you know that the M3's traction control can be turned OFF and will not come back on the way PSM does when you touch the brake pedal? You worry me, the way you speak with such strong words but on such seemingly shoddy knowledge base about the M3's traction system....How many miles and how many minutes you've actually spent in an E46 M3 yourself, since a turned-off traction system is hardly "obstrusive," if you know how to properly operate the button in front of the shifter clearly marked as DSC?? you are so very upset every time someone asks a question that you think it's easily searchable. I am beginning to wonder if you get paid a nickel every time someone uses the search engine. So, here is the actual question posed by mkiv808: What is the difference in steering feel between an M3 and a 996? Go Forth, Search Patrol!! perhaps you could enlighten us and find the "dozens of threads at your fingertips!!" that address specifically this topic, since you seem to admonish and then promise to find threads every time (but most of the time not exactly on-topic), on every question that's vaguely related to the every other of the most basic of questions that have ever been posed on the Internet since the dawn of man. And I am not talking about "related" posts, like the times you supposedly found "dozens" of threads pertaining to the central question "Why M3 over Corvette as 996 competitor" but you found many M3 vs 996, and many Corvette vs 996 threads, as if that's earth shaking Nobel material, thus missing the big picture.... Please find a dozen, or at least six, threads that ask exactly "Steering feel: M3 vs 996" and not just some global comparison on everything between the two cars. Instead of hammering mkiv808 with faintly camouflaged expletives and insults about his age, at the very beginning of every one of your posts in this thread thus far, perhaps you could contribute a little with your expertise as the self-anointed search patrol.

bulls-eye!!

Of course I know that the DSC can be turned "off". I was refering to its intrusive nature while it is "on". As for the rest, it appears that your ego was damaged in your M3/NSX thread and now you want to bring that baggage over here?? Grow up....

I told myself I wasn't going to get dragged into another M3 thread...but have to agree on the DSC issue...I get DSC to kick in when being agressive on long sweeping ramps (read turns) on freeway transitions...It's overly intrusive to the point of being unsafe at times. Try a quick manuver to pull out into traffic and suddenly having no power on tap to make said move. As for the steering feel...I'd love to compare them for you but I had the M3 for all of 4 days before it had full aftermarket suspension on the car and I run -2.5 to -3.5 degrees of camber all the time in that car which has an effect on the feel. Overall it's not a bad steering feel at all but it's numb in comparison to the 996. For me the 996's steering feel is great for performance driving but it's also a negative for casual street driving as there's lots of feedback through the wheel that is often unwnted in a street setting. I do however love the thick wheel in the M3. Andy

My creds, driven 2 M's (2002/2004) and 2 996's (1999/2000 C2's) : 1. M feels quicker (too quick) 2. M feels lighter but less grip at limit 3. Road feedback hands down better in the 996 4. 996 rear builds linear I think giving nice feedback as it compresses letting you know limit, M feels more progressive and then rear breaks free 5. Porsche has best steering "smile factor" of any car I have ever driven

to the thread starter: Go down to your local BMW or PCA autocross events. There will be at least one person who will let you ride along. You'll gain a boat load of opinions. The BoxsterS first caught my eye at one of these events, went down to a local dealer and closed the deal in a week. Hadn't ever considered a mig engine car before attending autocross events.

I went directly from stock E46 M3 to '04 996 (40th Anny), but the latter is lowered and has 19" Champion RG5s...so when I say the 996 steering feel & communication is vastly superior, perhaps the deck was stacked a little. The M3 could feel overboosted at times, a bit numb compared to my 996...but what bothered me the most on the M3 wasn't steering feel, it was the excessive body roll in corners (very predictable handler, just too ponderous). Both are superb cars, but 996 considerably more focused.

Ray S, No taunts about egos and comments on "growing ups." The last time I heard such taunts were in grade school. Well, way back then, and your posts earlier calling mkiv808 a 16-year-old. And as for your assertion about my ego damaged in some NSX/996 thread....I have not posted in any NSX thread. You must be so active on this forum insulting people and enforcing your search patrol rules that you can't even keep track of all the threads you've said the exact same thing on and all the people who've called out your bluff.... I choose to ignore such and go right to the point: you can't come up with search results this time??!! Where are the threads you always promise as proof that search is the way to go every time?? I'll throw you a bone: just come up with not six, not five, just FOUR THREADS that ask the main question of "M3 vs 996 on Steering Feel Alone," as mkiv808 did at the very start. As for DSC on M3: I don't consider a traction function that can be turned completely off with a single push of a button and never come back on an "obtrusive" function, and it could only be considered an obtrusive function if the said driver is too lazy to push the button or too ignorant to know where the button is. I guess that puts you in that camp.

996's steering feel is superior to the M3. Not much else to say about it.

Hmmm, I wonder what this thread is then???? (page two and three) https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/351963-911-and-m3-comparisons.html Boy, it really does appear that you are carrying your baggage from one thread to another doesn't it?? Correct me if I'm wrong but the original poster does ask about an M3 and NSX and you do seem bent out of shape about the idea of a search (which I provided twice). Here is a 2 second search on E46 and Steering https://rennlist.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1639521 There are plenty of post in these threads that reference the M3 steering vs the 996. I'm not going to waste my time sifting through this just because you are stuck in another thread. If you indeed have some sort of problem with me (it sure appears that way) shoot me a PM and I will listen to your issue. Otherwise big bye-bye.... I am done discussing old threads in new threads with you.

Once you lower it, it pretty much brings the M3 up to 996 standards with regard to the roll feeling. for as much as the uk car mags love the E46 M3, the stock suspension bites. With that said, the biggest diff I notice... I had TC Klines, camber plates, RTABs replaced on the M3... between the two... my C4S is on PSS9s which i know in the m3 world are softer than the tcklines and not as serious.... the 996 c4s chassis feels much stiffer thus making the car feel tighter/harsher. i like it much better in the 911. and not to go off on a tangent here (why not it happens all the time it seems), i am supremely happy to be back in a sporty cockpit. the E46 M3 always felt like a barge compared to the S2000. it's based on a commuter car the reg 3 series and a good one at that. but even with the better seats and steering wheel, the car still felt like a commuter car driver position wise. the 911 feels much cozier and it just adds to the driving experience.

Recently had the decision of which car to get rid of...the 996 or the 01 M3. One had to go. I've autoX'd the M3 and it is truly an amazing car. Did fantastic, better than I'd ever have thought. But it did push in the corners and at times, would not turn - couldn't get the back end around. You can definately feel the extra weight. In comparison, the 996 feels so much more "quick" in response to input. Almost feels darty compared to the M3. At highway speeds, the M3 felt more stable, easier to drive long distances. The car didn't wander in the lane, (needing much more correction) like the 996. Overall, I enjoyed the 996 better. It stayed.

it's cool to observe that so many of us who have come from the E46 M3 experienced it diff the M3 felt floaty at speed and this is one lowered on some quality street coilovers with BBS LMs. the 911 c4s feels much more planted and secure at 100MPH+. maybe it's the heavier steering not sure what that makes it feel rock solid.. that's my story and heck i'll stick with it

Test drove the 996 C4S today. Pretty good. Didn't really get to stretch its legs out (salesman came with me, of course!). My only complaint about the steering was it was a little too light for my taste. I'm sure with some castor adjustment it can be fixed? It didn't come even close to the Elise, of course, but an improvement over the Vette, although not as drastic as I expected.

Oh yeah, and the clutch felt VERY heavy compared to the C6. I almost pressed my C6's clutch through the floor when getting back into it. The difference is HUGE.

The Elise feels like crap, less feedback and lots of play compared to a 996. I drove an Elise with 1400 miles on it and my steering felt tighter at 91k miles, no comparison.

I felt the Elise was the tightest and most communicative steering rack I've ever driven, by far. I also love the lack of power steering. Nice and heavy at slow speeds, lightens up at speed, gets heavier in turns. To each their own I spose. I would imagine the earlier 911's would be similar in feel.

Best steering feel I've ever felt was in my '67 912 back in the day. I felt connected to the road and felt everything my fronts were doing in my hands. I just had to think about where to point it and it would do it instantly. I really loved that car.

Ditto. Didn't have time to read this whole thread but here's my two cents: M3 - light and responsive but just slightly numb 996 - light with more responsive feel, noticeably better than M3 993 - heavier but orgasmic, reads every thing the pavement sends your way BTW, all those comments are for 2wd variants. I found the 4wd cars to be a bit less direct for some reason. Now I will get in the trench and wait for the incoming rounds....

Are you referring to an E30, E36 or E46 M3? Both the E30 and E36 have very tight steering feel and turn-in. In fact the E36 M3 is one of the best steering cars ever built. The E46 is a different story. The steering feels slow and has very slow turn-in. It understeers constantly and only seems to settle under heavy throttle in larger turns. This was simply the way BMW tuned it to make it safe for the masses, rather than the more purposeful older M cars. To be honest, out of the factory the US spec 996 has a very vague feeling. When you switch to a different suspension (ROW M030, X73, PSS9) the sharpness and turn-in improve drastically. Once set up properly, the steering on a 996 can be every bit at telegraphic as an old 901 chassis 911 where you can really feel through the wheel what the front tires are doing.