Another nice Pre-owned...I drove it

Sorry for posting rant type threads, but... I decided that I would like a C4 (if I have to choose between a C2 and equal C4), and that I probably want an '01, since I like the older lights, and they usually come with the rims I love. I spotted this ad on Cars.com. C4, advertised as a C2? It's at a dealer that says something like "all pre-owned are certified by Porsche..". This one doesn't say certified, says RWD when it's clearly a C4, doesn't list the options, and the price - what gives? Why price a car so far out of line? I like it, and would go see it if it wasn't $8k too much! Where are all the silver '01 C2-C4's w/ 3-spoke wheel, Turbo Looks, and all leather interiors for sale? It's like EVERY C2 for sale is a Cabrio (and I don't want a convertible)!? Do the coupes go on sale after the winter?

Ditto that. Funny. I just finished shopping and it seemed there were like 10 cab for every one coupe on the market!!

It does not look like a C4 it looks like a narrow body to me. I think someone just put that badge on there. I will sell you my 99 if you really want a C2 full carbon package full leather sport exhaust. etc...

Boy, that car looks beautiful. And I agree with you....those are my all-time favorite Porsche wheels. Here's a better link, by the way: http://don-rosen.porschedealer.com/p...ntoryid=296034

According to their listing of pre-owned cars, this silver one that you're looking at is not certified. Here's the link to their list of cars presently for sale: http://don-rosen.porschedealer.com/p...ars/search.php

You are thinking of a C4S. C4's are narrow body cars. Thanks, but I want an '01 with a CPO Warranty....That's why this car makes no sense at $48k!? Not certified, partial leather, 4-spoke wheel, etc.

Weird. That is a narrow body. I've always been concerned with cars that I've seen at Don Rosen. When I was looking for my car they seemed overpriced and underquality.

I've had only one experience with Don Rosen Porsche. I bought my '99 911 from them last year. They certified it, and it had 45K miles on it. They were also very flexible on the price and they were a real pleasure to deal with. I dealt with Bill Rawlings (the salesman), and found him to be a "no pressure" kind of guy. It won't cost you anything to go there and look at the car you're interested in. At 26K miles, it would be worth your while to go drive it, eh?

Did they lower the price by $8k and then certify it?

They lowered the price substantially, and they certified it. I never really did understand how they could certify a 7 year-old car, but they did. I'm glad they did because, like you, I wouldn't have bought it unless it was certified. If you're really interested in that car (and it does look like a beauty), go look at it. That won't cost you anything, and if you have an experience like I did, you will be pleasantly surprised. Let me tell you one thing that happened which surprised me.....I suspected some rear body damage on my car because the "Carrera" badge looked a little crooked. To calm my fears, the sales manager brought the paint meter out and metered the entire car. Paint thickness everywhere was within spec....a pretty good indication that there was no body damage anywhere on the car. That he did it front of me was a gutsy move. I liked that. Good luck!

It does look like a c4 to me. Note the silver brake calipers ala all wheel drive. black was standard on c2. JIM

I have no doubt it's a C4, just not labled AWD in the ad. It says the car has a 4-spoke steering wheel, but I could almost see a Porsche crest on the wheel in one of the rear photos. Anyone see that? I assume for most Porsche dealers these cars are not worh their time - they wanna sell $90k new cars! Although paying $30k on a trade in, and selling for $48k is probably more profit than they make on any new car!

OK, I went to Don Rosen and drove this car today. The car is basically loaded except for all leather and sport seats. It has (thanks Jerry for doing a pre-check and getting the options list for me): Base car: $72,000 Artic Silver Metallic: $805 Leather seats: $1,490 Supple leather option (front and rear): $390 Comfort package: $2,090 (this includes power seats, driver's side memory seat, lumbar support left and right) Technic package: $2,190 (this includes headlight washers, hi-fi sound, Xenon headlights, on board computer, and CD/AM/FM radio) Heated front seats: $400 18" turbo look wheels: $1,190 3 spoke leather wheel, with colored Porsche crest: $255 Black floor mats with Porsche lettering: $110 Stainless steel exhaust pipes: 750 Destination charge: $765 TOTAL STICKER PRICE: $82,435 In addition, there is a full set of snow tires on replica Twist rims thrown in with the car. When I got there, the car was running, and the service guy was attatching the windshield wiper. Seems when you turn on the wipers when they are frozen, they break off? Anyway, the car has been sitting on the dealer's lot for a month. I noticed the front brakes are shot - pads are worn, rotors looked scored. The tires (originals) are nearly bald too. I drove the car, and it performed nicely, although a bit rough. The clutch felt very stiff, as in it took a decent amount of effort to push the pedal. There was a bit of a steering wheel shimmy, I assume due to the lame tires? Didn't seem to slip on hard acceleration. The roughness was probably from sitting for a month (or longer). Overall, my first 996 drive, so it's hard to comment without a benchmark. The dealer said the car will be certified, and the following would be included in the $44k price: 30k Service New Tires New front brake pads (not rotors) CPO warranty When I said when will the work be completed, so I can get a proper test drive, they said they would NOT do the work until after I said I wanted the car. The car has been sitting in inventory for a month, and they have a 45-day turn around rule. After 45 days, I guess they auction the car off, or sell it wholesale. They said why do all that work, if they are just going to end up dumping the car wholesale. I said $44k was too high, considering I had to trust them to put the car right after I signed on the dotted line (pretty unheard of IMHO). I said $41k was more like it, IF all the work was done as they said. As far as maintenance records, everything was done at this dealership. But, aside from the 15k service, and a new shock mount, no other records of service. So, what are your thoughts on this car? It has 26k miles, and every option I would want in a C4. BUT, it really hasn't been pampered, and might need more than brake pads and tires. There is the free winter rims and tires that I could sell to lower the overall price? Do I walk away, or what? Thanks.

-- Pre-facelift model year -- No Aero -- Partial Leather = Ordinary Porsche 996 C4, "nothing special" Given this, $41K seems a little high. It seems that you are paying the extra $ for the low miles. Does not seem worth it to me if you are sticking to CPO cars only.

Wouldn't you consider this a well-optioned C4? Doesn't have the full leather, but it has $10k worth of goodies, and low miles.

try to get a PPI inspection with the mechanic. Push them on the wear items that won't be coverred under CPO. Clutch sounds suspicious.

Certified Pre-Owned Program Ah, so here's how Porsche does it (I looked it up today). If a Porsche is sold outside the new vehicle warranty (4 years/50,000 miles, whichever comes first), the car can be certified under their Certified Pre-Owned Limited Warranty plan for two years from the date of sale or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. The car has to be less than 8 years old AND pass a 100 + point inspection check list. Any fault not meeting the inspection standard must be repaired for the car qualify for this program using original Porsche parts.

Andy, I see that you like the car, but I do also believe it's overpriced, even with $41k. Well-optioned is relative; bring it to a dealer the day after you buy it and ask him if he'd pay you a premium for the memory seat. He'll not. Options do usually not infuence the price for used cars. They can make them more attractive but come on! This is not a unique car. There are tons of pre-facelift silver 996 Coupes out there. You can do better than $41K.

My $0.02 is that $44k does not sound like a bad deal for that car. Porsche 996's were not produced in huge numbers (much larger numbers than past 911's, but still very low production compared to most cars). The visual differences to the 997 (to the average man on the street) are minimal and they offer great bang for the buck right now. The market for these car just in not quite as low as some on this board seem to think they are. Sure you can find ratty, high mileage cars for much less but we are talking about a low mileage, good condition, Porsche certified car here. Absolutely push them as low as possible, but if this is the car you want I'm not sure I'd let it slip away if the ask/sell price gap is relatively small. Good luck

The C4 was a narrow body, just had the AWD, titanium color brake calipers and a popcorn machine in the center console - if you don't see the popcorn machine then it had the popcorn machine delete option.

Ray, I'm in full agreement with your points. In addition, sometimes a prospective buyer's passion/emotion/lust for a car, his budget, and/or local supply and demand will "shape" the value of the car in that prospective buyer's mind and in the seller's mind, as well. I don't know if Andy should buy this car, but I think he'll make the best decision based on all the factors that are important to him. But the price doesn't seem terribly out of line for what the car is - a very clean, low mileage, well-optioned, CPO 2001 C4. The fact that it's "non-aero," "pre-facelift," etc. may, in fact, be appealing to certain buyers, rather than detrimental.

Another thought, as spring unfolds prices aren't going to go down. It may be a few thousand high, but you will forget about that as you enjoy the ride over the years.

10K is not a lot for Porsche options. I know this car is 6-7 years old, but modern Porsche options are expensive. The heated seats / memory seats will command a ZERO premium after you drive it off the dealers lot. Here is an example of what some options cost nowadays (taken from the Porsche website): 450 Ceramic Composite Brakes - PCCB $8,150 99 Leather Interior To Sample $5,115 06 Natural Leather Brown (Special Leather) $4,875 550 Hard Top $3,490 EAD Carbon Package Switch Panel $2,700 XTL Door Finishers In Carbon $2,700 P01 Adaptive Sport Seats $2,695 CVT Leather Door And Rear Speakers $2,570 404 19" Turbo Wheels $2,440 XLF Sport Exhaust System $2,400 XRR 19" Carrera Sport Wheel $2,385 672 Extended Navigation Module $2,275 CUF PCM Package Painted Exterior Color $2,230 CCP Aluminum Look PCM Package $2,230 CMF PCM Package Painted Black $2,230 CUR Leather PCM Package $2,230 670 Navigation For PCM $2,070 EAA Leather Package Switch Panel $2,050

I don't get it guys. Here we're arguing that >40K for a 01 C4 are a good deal and in this thread 99 C4 we are pushing the private seller down to the low 30s for a 99 C4 with the same low miles? OK, there's a difference in options and the CPO but come on, for $1K you get a new 3-spoke steering wheel and for the rest of the difference you almost get a new engine. What do I miss?

I love popcorn mmmmm Why did my C2 not come with that option?

IMHO Price is little high, but if it's the car of your dreams and has the options and color and you don't think you will find another like it. Go for it, and have buyer�s remorse later

At $41k w/CPO doesn't seem to be a bad deal. The car has to be right before than can CPO it. What tires are they going to put on it? Do you have any say in that? As far as the roughness, the 996 clutch is fairly heavy. The main thing I would look out for there is any slippage under acceleration. You should also make sure they do an alignment as part of the deal. Since this is the first 996 you've driven, I would suggest you drive a couple others that may be in better running order (fresher tires, alignment, etc.) to get a better baseline. Does the dealer have a couple of cars you could drive for comparison? I think you should drive an '02 or newer as well.

The car is priced at $44k. I mentioned $41k, but the dealer wouldn't budge. Do all certified cars get the certification (and new parts) after the deal is made? I thought it was kind of shady that the dealer would make me pay for the car first, and hope the car drove better with new brakes and tires, etc.?

How does a dealer CPO a car when it needs brakes and tires? Only reason I could see for not putting the brakes and tires on is if you don't buy it the next person might not try so hard to hve them replaced and that gives them more room to make a deal.

Porsche specifies minimum tread depth and pad thickness for CPO certification. Your dealer can't (legitimately) certify the car if it does not pass on all Porsche specified parameters. However, as long as the dealer puts those items on the "Fix it" list (I don't know what the official name for the document is) before you hand over the cash and sign on the dotted line you should be covered.

I don't think it is too shady for the dealer to offer the certification as part of the deal. I was offered cars several times with or without CPO. The difference in price was the premium which would need to be paid to Porsche. It does seem a bit odd that the dealer wouldn't make a deal with you that you could back out if the car did not drive to your satisfaction, but then I can see the dealer's point of view on that. I strongly suggest that drive some other 996's. Two reasons. One is that so you can know what it should drive like. Two is because of the the clutch. Mine just is not very heavy (or at least it seems that way to me), and I would be a bit concerned about that. If it feels similar to the others, then it probably is not a concern. If you are willing to let this car go, but you decide you would pay 41, why not offer them 41? It is better than what they would get if they wholesale it and they might take it before they sent it to wholesale.

My car did not go through the CPO process until we agreed on a price and I put a deposit on the car. This was based on not uncovering anything in the CPO process that was going to be a large $ amount to make it right (at the dealer's expense). The sales manager said he would unwrap the deal if the circumstance arose where they could not CPO the car, etc. But, I had a signed contract for a CPO car at a specified price. I also took him on his word as far as unwrapping the deal if the inspection revealed something unfavorable. But, the car drove fine as is. I didn't have to wait until after the CPO to verify that the car drove satisfactorily to me. I think you have to ask yourself is the car worth $44k to you if it drives like you expect it to (after the CPO)? I would not sign any final paperwork until the car met my satisfaction. Can you agree on the deal and put a deposit on the car to get the ball rolling? I still think you should drive a couple more 996's to establish a proper baseline to measure this car against.

I did offer $41k, and the sales guy went to his manager, and came back with "no, $44k is the lowest we will go", and gave me a list of how much all the stuff they will do to the car to cpo it would cost. If they hold at $44k, I could take that price, IF they replace the pads AND rotors, and let me pick the tires they are putting on. Not sure if they would go for that though. They seemed to make it appear that they would get $44k if they farmed it out to another dealer (he didn't say wholesaler though)? I know you shouldn't jump at the first nice car you see, but this does have all the options I would want in an '01. Will probably drive a more local Cab, just to try the clutch for feel, etc.

My 2 cents from Iraq... Write up a formal offer. Tell them your end of the deal; brakes, tires etc. Tell them you'll pay them $41K with those stipulations and walk away. If they get to their 45 day mark without another sale, I guarantee they will call you. Take a look at the completed sales on ebay for that year. This will give you a decent idea what wholesale is running. Obviously that's not what a CPO car may be worth but it gives you a rough idea on wholsale. If you give them a formal, signed, offer, they know you're serious. If you aren't willing to commit, why should they? I live in Montana, but have herd good thing about Rosen from friends out east. We also buy parts from them for repair work in Montana. They have a great parts staff that have always worked with us.

Iraq, Montana?

I agree with everyone else that said you need to drive more cars. I have been reading your posts for a while here Andy, and I surprised that as long as you've been "searching" for your 996, this is the first one that you've driven. I think I test drove about 5 996s before I found the one that I ended up buying. When I drove it, I knew I had found an exceptionally tight, well maintained example. I paid too much for it, but it's been a great car. Rather than having all of this speculation, why don't you just ask the dealer all of your questions? What kind of tires will they put on? Will they do an alignment (or at least check it first)? Don't be shy - you are the customer, you've got every right to ask any question that you want to, even stupid ones. If they will not answer every question to your satisfaction, then walk away. There are way too many cars out there in the marketplace to get hung up on this one if things don't all fall into place. Michael

Good points Michael. I checked the free carfax-type reports linked to the dealer site. Seems the car was leased, twice. That tells me that both owners didn't really care about the car, since it was only leased, and they knew they would be getting rid of it in a short period of time. That's probably why the only dealer records are the 15k service. I really do have to check out more cars. The reason I haven't (except for this one) is because I wont have the money for a 911 until next month. Sure, I could finance for a month, but would rather have the cash in-hand. That said, if it takes a few months to find "the" car, I should get driving!