Oil analysis report - high iron, copper, and magnesium. Should I be concerned?

Just got my first oil analysis report. Oil is Motul x-cess 5w-40, had ~5,000 miles on it and car has almost 50k miles. TBN=6.7 (TBN=10.9 for virgin oil) Both iron and copper seem to be quite higher. Magnesium is ~10 times higher than normal! Never any engine work. Oil and oil filter changed every 5k-7k miles/every yr, whichever comes first. Should I be concerned? What engine parts contain copper? E90745-edited2.pdf TIA

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Copper is a bearing metal; main, rod bearing inserts, or valve guides. Iron (ferrous metals) of course can come from crank/rod bearing journals, IMS bearing coming apart, piston walls -- the walls are covered/treated with an iron coating to prevent the alum. piston walls from galling from contact with the alum. of the cylinder walls. However, if the the IMS bearing were going bad the amount of say chromium or manganese would be up too since the IMS bearing's composition is probably SAE 52100 bearing steel which contains carbon, chrome, iron, manganese, phosphorus, silicon, and sulphur, though the amounts the of the last 4 items is tiny compared to the 1st 3 items. Magnesium is an additive component. Some oils have a very heavy additive package and maybe this oil is one...? Yep. From the analysis sheet the oil looks like it is additive rich. Calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and zinc levels are all pretty high. The oil analysis comments didn't indicate any reason for alarm. I also note it points out the universal averages are for oils with 4K miles and your oil had a bit over 5K miles. I suspect that an oil's degradation is not linear so that extra 1K miles might play a larger role in the amount of stuff in the oil. You might want to consider adhering to a 4K mile oil change next time and see what an analysis turns up, to see if the amounts of the various things in the oil fall closer to the universal averages. If they do it might suggest the oil you are using is not quite up to 5K/7K mile change intervals given your driving style, climatic conditions, and other factors that affect oil service life. Sincerely, Macster.

Thanks Macster for the very informative and detailed reply. The magnesium is only "13" in the vigin oil I sent them so not sure why the magnesium level in the used oil is so high at "1048" when the avg should be closer to "149". Already sent them an email to check if it's a data entry error (hope so). 4k for the next report is an excellant suggestion. Will do that and keep an eye on the iron/copper.

Did you add two and a half quarts of oil in that time period..?

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Yes, that's how much oil my engine uses ~1 qt/1,600 miles

What Macster said. Many oils, especially high quality ones and motorcycle specific contain sacrificial alloys made from metallic elements and compounds. Many labs will want to know this beforehand and will make allowances on the report. It used to be that labs would make adjustments for Kendall oil because of all the metal in it when new.

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Thanks, Nick. However, the magnesium in the virgin oil I turned in was only "13".

I think if your burning that much oil your engine is slowly on its way out... that much oil usage is a sign of a loose engine.... it's probably pretty fast right? they get fast when they are loose... also I see you have x74 and porsche sport pads... so you are tracking as well... how many track days do you have on that oil sample..? your iron and copper rates are high and yes they are reason for concern... if your tracking change your oil every 4 track days what kind of oil was that on?

your metal wear levels are high and are reason for concern IMHO. I see you run x74 and sport pads so I assume your tracking... how many track days do you have on that oil sample? your engine is burning that much oil because it has become loose... loose engine run fast but it's a sign of an engine on its way out... pistons are ova-ling and as a result you are burning more oil... my recommendation here is to change the oil every 4 track days max.... you can leave it in for 4K like Macster says and also try Castrol 5W50 - I bet your oil burn rate will drop but the real indicator is the metal wear... not good and you want to manage that sooner than later... if you really want to splurge on great oil go for the Motul 300V 5W40; but I would try the castrol 5W50 first because it may reduce your burn rate and give you lower wear numbers.... let us know how it works out

No tracking and the car is my daily drive (local roads). Oil is Motul x-cess 5w-40. 1qt/1,600 miles is not uncommon for these cars and it's been doing that since I bought it (at 2500 miles). Car has ~50k miles now and it's running like a champ.

ok the metal wear is certainly an anomaly especially if your not tracking... try castrol 5W50 for the next 4000 miles and see what the UOA tells you.... I use that oil my my c2 (and track the car aggressively) and my wear levels are nowhere near what your generating... your levels are 5-6 times higher than what I'm getting although I only have 20K miles on my engine... don't know if age is a factor here. I'm willing to bet it's your oil and with the Castrol I think your oil usage will go down as well...

This is ONE used oil report. It won't really tell you much. You have no idea if your wear metals are going up, down, or holding steady. Regardless, your iron and copper are sky high.

yes I agree... continued UOA's will spot trends for sure

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I used to have an internet link to a very good write up on engine oils with very in depth look at motorcycle oils. There are many additives for varying reasons. What would be nice is to know what the standard common wear particles expected to be in an oil sample for a 996 or other engines during different stages of the engines life. An explanation of whats breaking down considering the particles found in an oil sample would be nice also.

I reviewed your UOA. I would like to send you a study that I recently carried out on this topic that includes teardown pictures from an engine that had similar UOA values of iron and copper. If you can email me at [email removed] I'll get it to you next week.

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Hi Jake, Email sent. Really appreciate your help and expert opinion and I look forward to your study. I'm already using your magnetic drain plug and a low temp thermo. I'm currently trying to assess the general health of my engine and see if anything needs to be done. I have been using Motul for the past 4 years with oil change every 5000 miles/1yr. All maintenance are up to date and engine always warmed up before being pushed. Again thanks for your help

This is the latest oil report, about a year from my original post. The iron and copper levels have come down a bit but still in the same order of magnitude. Engine feels strong and smooth, no oil leak, no strange noises, etc. The only thing is it's burning oil at ~1,600 miles/quart, which it's been doing since new. Quite a bit of oily grime build up under the outside of the throttle body where the PCV vent line plugs into it. My theory is a lot of oil vapor is sucked in through that vent line due to the sub par AOS. 2013-02-02 oil report edited.pdf

You need to check the vacuum readings within the crankcase, it sounds like you have a weak/ failing AOS as this is the first symptom thats usually apparent. This effects fuel trim values and impacts engine management. The ONLY copper within these engines is the dermis layer of the rod and main bearings. Iron high followed by copper being high is classic and we know what causes it. Here is a picture from my study that shows this very clearly. The engine studied had 47K miles on it, was one owner, never tracked and always serviced. The classic recipe for unexpected failures. We saved this one and I am testing it after reassembly as we speak.

Thanks for your expoert info, Jake. That makes a lot of sense. I started UOA only last year and already saw BOTH copper and iron that high so maybe the wear had started even earlier. So what to do? Just switch to DT40 and keep doing UOA? I also heard the oil cooler is also made of copper/brass but can hardly imagine they will shed material constantly. I measured the crankcase vacuum last week via the oil filler tube. It read ~6" water so not too bad. Long term fuel trims are at +5% on both banks so not bad either. No oil leak around RMS/IMS. Everything looks so perfect....except the UOAs

based on the position of the oil/ coolant heat exchanger in the oil system, if it sheds material that goes straight to the rod and main bearings as unfiltered oil... This material has always come from the bearings in my previous experiences and we are seeing more and more of these occurrences now.

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Thanks Jake. That makes sense. So any way to keep the wear down to a minimum from now on to prolong the life of the engine? I assume I will need to watch out for low oil pressure and any rod knocking noise from now on. Maybe it's the best opportunity to try out DT40 and keep doing UOAs....

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I'm also burning a quart around every 1.5k miles .. @ 61k now .. Higher than I would like but everything seems ok .. Mobile 1 ow40 ... Last oil analysis showed slightly high copper but nothing black stone was too concerned about. Smog passed with no issues. I put some of the consumption issues down to 0w oil on cold starts ..oil consumption is less per mile on long runs ...

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Thanks for the info, Targa. When you said slightly high copper, is it anywhere close to 20+ ppm like mine in 5k miles oil?

Everytime you guys post these and JR responds, Im afraid to start my car for fear of it imploding or blowing its guts through the pan. But seriously, I would be concerned about the oil analysis and excessive oil consumption. Your engine might be a candidate for the flush and fill with JG DT40, then get a new analysis just to see what happens.

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Sorry to raise your stress level a bit, Krazy. You read my mind about trying out DT40 since there's nothing much I could do at this point (well, may be to add Jake's full flow oil filter adaptor and use better filters). I already have the LN magnetic oil plug. Btw, Jake had mentioned before there are 20+ modes of failure for these engines so in a way I was not too surprised about my situation...

And thats why I am checking out from forum contributions. I see the worst of the worst and nothing comes to us just needing "service work". Ahsai, once damage is done, its done and it will not get any better without intervention. Right now you have no other symptoms so finding someone in your area that has mechanical aptitude and common sense would be advisable. Technicians know how to plug in a scan tool into your vehicle, unfortunately thats not going to alleviate your issue.

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Thanks Jake for your advice. I understand that what's damaged is damaged. I would not expect the engine to cure itself. Now it's a matter of finding a way to slow down further wear or find other ways to get rid of the problem.

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Copper was 23 iron 11 ppm with 4700 miles on engine

Thanks Targa for sharing your info. I appreciate it.

Jr, please dont bail on us just because of some of the comments. My M96 knowledge inceases everytime you post. I hope one day you wil consider selling some of your mods in kit form for DIY'ers.

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That is my engine. Jake has been great. He said to park the car after oil analysis showed copper and aluminum. Fortunately I did. Two more analyses confirmed bearing wear. Followed by tear down, repair, replacements, and upgrades. Thank you Jake!

70Sixter, The car is done.. 450 test miles, perfect performance.. And an IMS Solution is now installed :-)

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Thanks for letting us know and glad to hear Jake caught it in time. What were the copper and aluminum levels before the teardown?b TIA

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Low to mid 20s. We got lucky, I've never been able to save an engine from a UOA before.

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Thanks, Jake. Was the aluminum level also at low to mid 20s as well or just the copper?

Ahsai, why dont you just pull a sample every 1 or 2K to see whats going on? Did you flush and switch to JG?

KK, I plan to do that in 3k. Maybe a shorter oil change interval will help. No, I have not tried DT40 yet. Will wait for the next uoa first. Engine is quiet, smooth and strong so not too concerned for now.

So was Mike's. There are times when fixing something that isn't broken (yet) is the smart thing to do. One thing is for sure, it won't heal it's self and it won't go away. If your UOA is accurate, you have a problem and you better find it, before it finds you.

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Jake, how much will I save if I rebuild it now as opposed to later when and if it blows up?

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Thats impossible to answer accurately.. BUT right now your situation is just a repair and its elective. At minimum you are saving tow bills and the reality that something always happens when you both don't expect it and when its least convenient. When this happens I do know that the cost of admission increases by around 4-6K since the whole core gets thrown away. Once wear starts the clearances open, the oil pressure drops (resistance to flow is reduced) and then its a snowball headed to hell. Mike was really, really lucky.

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Thanks Jake. When you say "just a repair", we need to split the case to fix the bearings, right? I would assume that's no different than doing a full rebuild since most likely there will be lots of "while we are there" stuff to replace. As you said before, you don't rebuild engines, you reconstruct them. So practically the worst difference is basically the core. Is my understanding correct? Thanks again.

No one knows the definition of "rebuild". To me it means sloppy procedures and going back together with marginal components. We did not rebuild or reconstruct Mike's engine because it just needed a repair and it saved him a ton of money. We replaced a lot of parts while we were in there.. Mike's car had less than 50k miles so it didn't need everything that we do. We saved him a ton of cash. Considering what we see, just receiving an engine that's able to run under its own power when it arrives here is a special occurrence. Dealing with something before it breaks is a privilege. We are proficient enough to tear the entire engine down, repair it and put it all back together and test it inside of one week. No one else you'll talk to will give you this option, because they will lose tons of money doing the work, because they lack capability and proficiency at this level.

OK.... just to get this straight. A perfectly running engine with moderately elevated copper values reported on a mail-in oil analysis is doomed... Just waiting for the con-rods to come crashing through the engine block.

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If those elevated values are real, the rod bearings will continue to wear. At that point the engine will have a notable symptom but if action is not taken the rod bolts can easily break and send a rod through the block as a worst case scenario. Mike had no symptoms at all other than his UOA and then when the car arrived here we did more UOA (wear metals were up 12% even with only 500 mi on the oil) and a visual inspection of the oil sump and filter that did not yield any findings. We worked on his car off and on for a month before we made a hypothesis and started taking it apart. The root of his evil started with camshaft lobe wear that then spread through the engine.

To the OP, modern performance engines can run 1 qrt per 1,000 miles and still be in spec, I think you mentioned your engine had always used this much. Enjoy your car and just keep an eye on it, don't let this thread resolve into a rebuild your engine now, or your doomed to a scrapping your engine

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Thanks Ross for your support. No worries, I will not rebuild my engine without symptoms or new data showing up. You bet I'll keep a very close eye on it though (have always been) and yes, I'm enjoying it almost everyday. Yes, I'm not worrying about the oil consumption at all since it's been like that since new. I have heavy oil grim on the outside of the throttle body intake so I think a lot of oil just got sucked into the engine due to the sub par AOS.

Having just picked up a CPO 2006 C2S with 36,000 miles I have been following this and the IMS threads closely. Before Mobil 1 I used AMZOIL but for the past ten years have had excellent results with Redline in my other cars so would tend to stick with that rather than switching to MOTUL. Porsche recommends 0-40 but several posts on Rennlist suggest 5-40. I plan to switch from the fresh Mobil 1 in the 2006 and am interested in the logic of 5-40 vs 0-40--or some other weight. Any and all suggestions on alternatives would be appreciated. Also, I am interested in recommendations on a good source for Oil analysis. In a pinch there is always an AMZOIL kit for $32 but I would expect there might me someone who has a better data base on Porsche's. Thanks for the excellent thread.

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Welcome to Rennlist! There are tons of oil threads so you may want to do a search. Note that both mobil 0w40 and motul 5w40 x-cess are approved by Porsche. I chose Motul because it's a little thicker at moderate temp, which makes the valves quieter in morning start up. I had a very slight valve ticking at start up when using 0w40. The other weight I may try is mobil 5w-50 (also Porsche approved) for its molybdenum. Will see. For oil analysis, Blackstone is quite popular.

Thanks Ahsai, I will check out Blackstone. As Motul is recommended by Porsche ,I would tend to go with that as it is a type 5 oil while Mobil 1 is a type 4. But, having said that, in the 1960s and 1970s before we had synthetic oils, I had great success with MoS2 molybdenum additives, particularly for curing sticky 2nd gearbox problems.

Just to be clear, I agree 100% with the watch/wait approach. No way I'd split the cases on a typical 996 with no symptoms or issues other than high copper on an oil report. I was just trying to clarify Flat6's perspective on the issue.

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That's the way I understood your post -- sometimes I think Flat 6 thinks that an M96 is code for a grenade!!

Ahsai, A thought/question/observation: I have a C2 cab with 55k miles. Pretty close to your mileage. My UOA shows normal ranges for copper & iron with Motul 5-40. I change at 5k or 6 month intervals and always before winter sets in. That is when the car drops from 3-4 days use to maybe as little as 1day in 2-3 weeks, depending on salty roads. Looking back at some of the comments from Macster & others, about acids suspended in the oil, if you are running 5k or 3k oil changes that stretch to a year in the crankcase maybe the acid suspended in the oil is getting too long to work on your internal bits?