Reading up on 996's - Do Enthusiasts drive the hell out of their cars??

I was originally going to start looking for a 993. But, owning an 18-year-old 944, I finally figured that buying another antique would only bring me (and the wife) grief. Then, I checked Cars.com for 996's, and see $75k cars selling for $40k or less!? Interesting bargain, or is there something wrong in P-Car land? I have used the search function to educate myself on the 996. I see all the RMS, Engine blow-up, clutch replacements at 30k threads, etc, and have to wonder - do most 911 owners drive the hell out of their cars, resulting in premature wear, tear, or blow ups? Would a "garage queen" 996 C2 have the same need for a new clutch, RMS repair, tranny replacement, at 30k miles? I plan on driving my future 996, but not tracking or racing it. If I buy an '02 with low miles will I still need to expect the worst as far as repairs go, or will a gently treated 996 reward me with mostly disaster-free driving? I've owned a 944 for the past 5 years, and know these cars need maintenance and repairs. But replacing the clutch or engine on a car with 30k miles has me wondering if a 996 is the wrong way to go? Thanks! Andy

Oh Christ, here we go again. Grab some popcorn and pour a nice drink and let the games begin. Buckle up Andy, it's gonna get bumpy.

Maybe I should re-phrase: Do you have to race a 996 to cause all the issues that SOME people have complained about (RMS, clutch / tranny failure, engine failure)? If it gets ugly, I can always retreat back to the 944 forum!

Maybe you should define RACE. If by race you mean DE then no. I have tracked both of my 996's extensively and the CAB for over 3 years now and the damn thing is BULLETPROOF! Clutch though needs to be reomved from your question since that is a wear item that you could burnm in a weekend or take care of to last 100K miles. That is a driving style issue. RMS? That's a crap shoot. I have NEVER had an RMS in my 996CAB and we are going on 7 years of ownership now.

RMS is a potential problem on all 986's and 996's and to a lesser extent all 987's and 997's with the M96 engine. Every new year/revised seal has brought the numbers down but the problem has never totally been eliminated. However, it is only a leaky seal and many wait to fix it until they replace their clutch. Here is an article on Renntech that describes the problem http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6731 As far as the engine replacements go you will find huge disagreements on this issue. Some feel every M96 car is a ticking bomb with an engine waiting to blow. Others believe the problems are extremely rare. I think part of the problem is brought on by Porsche and how they treat repairs on these engines. With earlier Porsches, dealers would tear down faulty engines diagnose the problem and repair the engine if possible. Now Porsche tells dealers to pull the entire engine crate it up and ship it back for a "core exchange" new motor (roughly $11k). I believe as a whole these are pretty good motors but isolated problems can occur. The early 986's and 996's did have some issues with slipped engine sleeves. Additionally, some of the earlier cars have had coolant intermix problems. For more info on the M96 read this; http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6470 I have two cars (986 and 996) with M96 motors and they have both been two of the most trouble free vehicles that I have ever owned. I would not hesitate to buy another. My advice; - buy the latest example you can afford - get a complete PPI by a reputable Porsche mechanic - buy a Porsche certified car or aftermarket warantee if you feel the need for extra protection - buy from an private owner or dealer you feel you can trust.

Andy, remind you there's a rennlist selling his 2000 CPO 996 coupe for < 30K. u should grab it

Two important requirements for me: Arctic Silver + Glove box!

You have glove box as a requirement? I've heard of some odd requirements but that is definitely a new one for me.

all my cars are Arctic Silver, and i love them. but Glove box?! why do u need it? or is it meant to be a joke?

It was meant as a joke. As long as there is somewhere to put my insurance card, and a CD or two, I am fine with a 99-01! but Arctic Silver is mandatory. And, when my wife asks "where's the glove box??", I can just floor it, right?

Andy, Like other's said. RMS is just a seal. 15-20 bucks, unfortunately you need to take the transmission off to get to it so therein is the fear of the dreaded RMS is the cost. My car is now on it's 2nd one. My car needed a clutch at 65K and while it was all open the RMS was noted as moist so it was replaced with a newer style as a preventative measure. Most leave it alone until the leak is really bad or it is time to do a clutch. There are a number of other items that come up on the 996 as preventative maintenance, coolant expansion tanks, oil seperator, Cam cover gasket or Spark Plug tubes developing oil leaks, etc. As for engines blowing and transmissions blowing up.... I guess search and make your own call. They are great cars, just like the 993s are (which have their own little list of issues) as I am sure your 944 has and you have lived with. Hopefully, welcome to the club.

No rear main seal!?!? Man, you motor must leak like a sieve!

I beat mine once a day whether it needs it or not.

Speaking only as a relatively new owner, fresh from the purchase experience, here's my .02 (which, along with a buck and a half, will buy you a cup of coffee). This is just how I processed all this stuff: 996s have weak resale for three reasons. One, they made more of them than any previous 911. Two, they were a technological departure from the 'authentic' formula, so they take the hit while the new 911 formula establishes itself. And three, rumours flew all over the internet about reliability issues. Trust me, speaking as a Land Rover owner, that phenomenon can hurt resale, but also make the cars available to people who would never otherwise been able to afford one. Reliability wise, I think they are phenomenal cars. People fuss about little things going wrong, but that's partly a function of high expectations from the marque and maybe a certain newness to sports cars. I have all the service records for my '00, and there's nothing in the history of the car that you wouldn't have experienced with a Honda, if you were as picky as a Porsche owner. For what they are, they seem bulletproof. The RMS thing is not worth worrying about, IMHO. It's a leak. Psychologically upsetting, driveway staining in the worst case. But if you're reasonably diligent about it, it's not a big deal. And the cost just isn't that high, factored into the big picture of maintenance. I think it pisses people off because it's unpredictable and they expect a Porsche to be perfect. But it's just a leak. The engine failure issue is real, I'm convinced of that. You just have to decide whether the car would still be satisfying to own if it cost you ten or twelve large more than the purchase price. Your odds are somewhere in the mid-single digits that it will happen to you, is my feeling from reading everything I could find. For me, a new engine wouldn't be financially fatal, and my investment in the car as a result would exceed it's resale value. But I'm not selling it. And after I licked my wounds, I'd have a new engine to enjoy. You can't enjoy a car if you're afraid of it, and there's no other reason to own a Porsche than enjoyment. And I'll put my hand up as the lone dissenter to the view that you should buy the lowest mileage car you can afford. I wouldn't touch an ultra-low mileage 996 with a barge pole. Well driven, well cared for is the way to buy a used car, for my money. Cars that routinely get less than a few thousand miles a year or so are total wild cards. My observation - just me, just anecdotal - is that this is especially true of 996s. I love mine, even as it sits in the parking lot with a dead battery, punishing me for not driving it in the salty slop around here. To be able to drive something exotic, yet do it every day withouth discomfort, not compromise life's other priorities to afford it, and not be terrified of the cost of using it is a real treat. You don't get your cake and eat it too like that often in life. Hope none of the foregoing offended anybody. I just thought it might be useful to hear a point of view that's realistic AND positive.

When I was reading up on 993's, and found that most suffer from the annoying check engine light caused by clogged air ports, or worse, valve guide wear, I figured the hell with older 911's! Leaking RMS is annoying. it would be VERY annoying if I paid $70k for the car! At $40k, not as bad! If the first leak is fixed by Porsche, and the repair comes with a 2-year warranty--then it leaks again, is the warranty repair warranteed - for another 2 years?? Talking about a warranty... Are these CPO warranties offered by Porsche dealers only, or would any dealer offer one? Thanks for the input Bruce - my goal is to NOT factor in another $11k for a new engine! Not only would I empty my checking account - my wife would beat me to death with my torque wrench!!

Funny Dave!

Yeah, me2. I have 100k miles and it's still nice and tight and doesn't burn a drop of oil.

Are there any MY01's that are certified? I actually like the original headlights better than the '02 upgrade! But having a warranty with these cars seems to take precidence over which headlights look cooler!

Andy I would not worry about the RMS as many have said its not that big of a deal. The thing why it is so populated over the net is that most dealers repair them because it bumps up their warranty $$ they can get from Porsche NA. The truth is that they might seep some what, but not many really leaks. I own older 911s and can tell you they leak like crazy. The oil tubes, valve covers, cam feed hoses, ect... The new cars don't have that many leaks, but the RMS is an issue. Make sure that you are buying a car that does not leak or been repaired. A PPI is something to consider if you are buying a car. Early casting did have some problems with engines so its best to buy a 2001 or newer. As far as values depreciating its on every car sold today, you see more people lease cars now so there are too many used cars availiable thus driving down prices. I guess its good for the guy who does not want to purchase new.

Andy, You can still find certified 01s, but I think we're getting to the point where you'd have to buy it from a private party and get the remainder of the balance. My '00 has 4 months of CPO left on it. Engine failures are real, yes. I had one. But I consider myself unlucky. The degree to which is open to dispute (every goddamn day on this forum!) Until the engine failure at 62k, the car had exactly one RMS done, and that was in '01. If I were buying now (vs. a year ago), I'd be pretty optimistic that the new seals are not prone to repeat failure. Possible, but very unlikely. The 996 is a fantastic car. Other than the engine "grenading" in a very non-dramatic fashion (hell, I drove it to the dealership without knowing what was wrong), I've had minimal problems with my car. Some electrical problem they fixed at the dealership in 10 minutes and some brake fluid problem I fixed by adding a tiny bit of fluid to (annoying that the techs didn't "think" of that when I took it in to the dealer). '99-01s have a cubby underneath the steering column where I keep the documents you were talking about There's even some room left over for the owners manual. Good Luck, Justin

I beat her like the naughty bitch that she is and everyday day she comes back for more.

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Wow, why did your engine blow up? Not because of an oil seep, right? I assume I will have cash in hand in the spring/summer. By then, even most MY02's will be out of warranty/CPO, right? I guess the reason I am looking at earlier 996's is because I can't shell out $50k for a newer one. And, when I do buy an '01 for $40k (give or take), I wont have an extra $10k if the engine lets go on my trip to the strore. Things to think about!

Dell - Care to make a wager about how long will it be before another poster inquires about 996's reliability, oil leaks or blown engines? That was really a surprising post from someone with over 4K posts. He should venture out of the 944 forum a little more.

Ok, lets review a few points... the M96 engines are wonderfully relaiable, they are probably the most reliable engine Porsche has ever built. That being said they have a few quirks and weaknesses. The dreaded rear main seal - The old RMS had a tendency to leak. This does not pose any functional problem, just leaves a few drops of oil on your garage floor. IMO, its a Porsche, they are designed to leak oil. Porsche does have a new RMS 997.xxx.xxx.xxx that works on all the cars and stops the leaking. There were a small handfull of cars whose RMS was leaking because of a different problem. A crankshaft machining problem. This can easily be checked by a Porsche dealer. Any PPI car should have been checked, if not, ask them to check it or check it again. Any PPI car should also have the 997 rear main seal. The creankshaft problem is rare and many people took advantage of it to get new engines when all they had were a few drops of oil on the floor. Oil Starvation under high G load. The 3.4l engines had a problem on track that they would oil starve on left (?) turns under high g-loads. This was due to oil pooling away from the pickup. This ONLY comes into play on the track with a highly modified suspension and Hoosiers or slicks. Porsche introduced a modification available through motorsports to ix this for the Grand Am guys and other racers. The 3.6l also introduced changes to eliminate this problem. The X51 powerkit took it even farther. If you are not going to track the car, don't worry about it. Transmission - A couple concerns here. There were a small batch of cars in 2002 that had bad trans from the factory (I had one). The problem made itself obvious in a catastrophic failure before you made it home. Once you got past that, there are some weaknesses in the M96 transmission. The trans uses all brass syncros instead of steel. These are fine for the street but will fail if you abuse the transmission shifting too fast and forcing it into gear. The 1/2 dogleg arm is also weak. There are aftermarket fixes for this and I understand Porsche has been making changes as well. One good thing about Porsche is they never sit still. If something breaks they analyze it and improve it. Compare a 3.4l M96 from 1999 to a rebuild 2.4l M96 purchased today and there is more different than the same. The last major M96 problem was slipping sleeves. This only effected the 2.5l Boxster which is sleeved to reduce the displacement. There were a few cars who had a sleeve slip down to the crank which brings the motor to immediate and catastrophic stop. I've owned two 2.5l Boxster and tracked both, no problems. There was a great article in Pano or Excellene about a year ago by a longtime Porsche engine rebuilder who ripped down a high mile M96 and analyzed it and was very impressed by its durability. Take everything you read online, particularly complaints, with a grain of salt. Most people are just looking for a place to air their complaints. My suggestion... buy a 996, treat it with respect and take car of it and much more likely than not, it will take great care of you.

Thanks, Ed. Others probably knew this stuff, but I found it very interesting.

For those that think oil leaks are something new with the 996 check out this 964 thread. https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/330513-how-do-you-define-an-oil-leak.html Ian suggests the following scale for leaks; 1. Bone dry - no weeping at oil pipe connections, front cooler or under car from engine. 2. Some slight weeping but NO drips - moist oil pipe connections, under tray slightly filmed in oil. 3. Slight leaks SMALL maximum 1 - 10 mm size drip or drips on standing for 24 hours or so after running. 4. Definite leaks - 1" to 2" puddles under car after running. 5. Serious leaks - puddles after running and oil top up needed frequently. FWIW, both of my Porsches would be "1's" on his scale.

my 02 C4S has 52k miles and runs perfect. It's never been tracked, has no RMS, has original clutch and runs great. You'll be fine with a 996, just be picky, I looked at about 10 before I bought my car. No regrets, would do it again in a heartbeat.

Surprising post? I asked if you had to really abuse a 996 to get the problems that I discovered in my various searches - to occur. Try doing a search for my question - bet mine is the only one that comes up. Had I asked a really basic question, like "do 996's have RMS problems?", I can see getting the "you should know better" response, but after 4,000 posts in the 944 forum, when I have a question that I think hasn't been answered, I think I have the right to ask it, no? And thanks Ed, excellent info, nicely summarized!

Let's talk about something fun...

Surprising post? I asked if you had to really abuse a 996 to get the problems that I discovered in my various searches - to occur. Try doing a search for my question - bet mine is the only one that comes up. Do you really expect 996 owners to freely admit that they abused their cars before the problem occurred? Moreover, my guess is that for the vast majority of 996 owners, the money they paid for their 996 was a significant outlay even if bought used. Hence I believe that it would be reasonable to expect that they would not abuse their cars, since they would try to protect their investment. I think that it all comes down to luck since most 996 owners have trouble free cars but some experience engine issues. So the odds are in your favor and you could betetr the odds by getting a CPO 996. Good luck.

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll repeat it a few more times, but the 996 may well be THE car bargain of the century. To those who turn their snouts up at 996s, I say, do so towards 996 GT3s, as that's what I intend to puirchase next (and yes, I will keep my '03 996 til they pry it from my cold deadh hands, to paraphrase Chuck Heston). PPI and common sense are your best tools for avoiding disaster (a voodoo chicken sacrifice couldn't hurt).

I guess abuse is the wrong word. I really meant "drive the hell out of"! Still, like you say, odds are with me (I hope). And I fully plan on a PPI before I buy! CPO would be nice!

Andy - Also, have them run a DME report so that you can check the engine for over revs. There are 6 ranges on the report with revs in ranges 4-6 likely to cause engine damage.

Is a DME report something all Porsche dealers can do? Also, are there no rev limiters on the 996s?

all porsches should take a licking and keep on ticking! that's what they were made for. no excuses.

What should Nissans do?

i drive it hard at least 4 times a week......

I've put 22,000 miles on my daily driver '02 since I bought it in May. It's eaten two RMS and two cats in that time, but they were all covered under the CPO and emissions warranties. The only time it's stranded me was my own battery-related fault ( see sad and foolish story plus my mother's reaction here ). I have no hesitation running it hard as my only car, and I will be taking it on a 3500 mile road trip in May for the Silver State Classic followed by exploring the Rockies.

Hell, if you have a laptop and a cable you can do the download yourself, but to answer your question, yes any Porsche Dealer can do it. It just takes a few minutes. If you hit up against the rev limiter, you will have a range 1 incident. That's no big deal. The rev limiter will only protect you on upshifts by cutting off the fuel supply. If you down shift into the wrong gear, you can still blow or at least damage the engine and the rev limiter will offer no protection. I certainly wouldn't buy any car that had incidents in range 4 and higher.

lol, you call that a "road trip"... just got back from a 6307.1 mile trip from Chicago to California while hitting up several spots in between... then again i did it in my parents boring ol' Monte Carlo instead of a Porsche... but oh did I dream of doing that in a 996 speaking of that, has anyone here bought their P-car from a long distance? if so, how would you go about getting the PPI done... would it be one of those get a one-way ticket and hope the car checks out... otherwise gotta get another plane ticket and realize you just wasted a bunch of money... 'cause I might be crazy enough to do that when I get back from Austria and start the "quest" for my 996... but I guess the only thing that would take me past 500 miles or so is if it was a respected member of this community that I knew serviced his p-car meticulously and for some reason had to sell it

Yikes! Not exactly a Porsche commercial, is it!? TWO cats would cost quite a nice sum if you didn't have the warranty. I guess that's why consumer reports has a black circle under "exhaust" for the MY02! Interesting!! Thanks!

Mine's 3 years old - I'm an enthusiast and I beat the crap out of it. Couldn't wait for the ice yesterday - ummmmm, donuts!!

That's a silly, vague statement. The cars should be able to handle repeated hard braking and sustained high RPM driving but they aren't built to be launched hard, power shifted, or driven hard while cold. I think a number of people confuse 'taking a licking' and abuse.

Phil - LOL This post could come back to haunt you when you sell your car.

What post?? You know I'll just deny it if I decide to sell!!

I can see it now: "FS-2004 996, Atlas Grey, 6-speed coupe with crap beaten out of it, leather seats, worn tires and brakes...."