Has anyone ever done a yes/no M96 failure poll?

First I'll put on my asbestos suit Would it maybe put a slow to engine failure questions if someone posts a poll asking something along the lines of "Have you ever had an M96 catastrophically fail?". I'm guessing the poll would overwhelmingly show no. I can't find one in the archives, just a few that ask how many miles someone has on their engine, which isn't quite the same question. Just a thought. I have no confidence as a newbie to post it

Check the 986 forum for the most comprehensive attempt at a forum based survey

Oh dear God, here we go again.

Again? I haven't seen a poll on this topic and it's certainly one to ask for people for who are looking at getting 996s don't you think?

Fine, I'll bite once and then I'm out. This topic has been beat to death like no tomorrow--I assume your search skills are not honing in on the correct threads. Polls have been done, banter has happened and it gets NOWHERE. Besides, let me ask you what you hope to accomplish with a self-report poll? Do you think you will get a number representative of anything meaningful? I can tell you with 100% certainty that you will not. In fact, it is a statistical certainty that you will miss the mark by a long shot. If you want to do it for fun and watch the all the banter that comes with it then sit back, grab some popcorn and a nice beverage and let the games begin.

Hm, didn't mean to touch a nerve ...but it does make a prospective 996 purchaser skeptical when I talk to mechanics and they say "ya we see failures a fair bit for those cars". That makes me worry. I'm just looking for reassurance from an enthusiast community that it's a statistically irrelevant number that it happens to. It's all about percentage risk for me to rationalize a $50,000 purchase. It doesn't help when half of the posts I find in the search get unconstructive "oh god here we go again" replies. And I respectfully disagree on the relevance. If 300 people reply and 290 say they have had no failure that's very relevant compared to if 300 reply and 150 say they have had a failure. I guess I'll drop it and listen to the mechanics...and I apologize for my poor search skills. I've yet to find any such poll other than a mileage based one which doesn't answer the question. If you have a link to a yes/no poll please do send. Cheers Thanks

I totally fail to see how anything good or informative could come of this. I'm starting to think that it's a conspiracy by people who can't afford a Porsche, hoping to drive down resale values to where they can. If you really want some kind of answer, there is plenty on the web about this if you search intelligently. Sources that have no axe to grind (which does not include forums, by the way), put the number at around 5%. If you want a 996 bad enough, those are decent odds. If you think the odds are too high, you probably don't really want a 996 bad enough. Kinda how life works.

Ah that's it, sling insults I'm poor so am trying to drive prices down nation wide I've searched intelligently and read TONS over the past month on this exact problem. It's inconclusive, which is why I wanted to ask enthusiasts. Sigh Any way to delete a thread?

bottom line, anything mechnical fails be it engine or wrist watch whos going to participate in the survey, or complain about the numbers the few who have had issues over the 100s who have not

And Brad just hit the on the reason why you will get NOTHING meaningful. Remember, it is YOU that are allowing somebody to participate or not. If you would like to learn how to contruct, administer, and analyze a reliable and valid survey, then please come sit in on one of my lectures. Heck, I'll even clear my schedule for you to spend some time on the phone with me during my office hours to figure this out. But, I'll warn you that the one thing you need (population data from PCNA) you will never be able to get. Crash and burn eh Mav? ps. you can't delete the thread but yuou can close it to further posts if you wish. That is under thread tools at the top.

so you asked a mechanic (who fixes broken cars - not good ones) if he sees a lot of broken cars. he said yes. big surprise. ask him if he ever fixed a TVR. I bet the answer is either never or very very rarely. Therefore TVR's must be great cars - right? did i miss something here

No insult intended. It's just that there is a lot of acrimonious history around this subject. If you deserve a spanking at all, it would only be for not searching the subject on this forum first. As for it being "inconclusive", it always will be. Porsche is never going to say.

Oh I've searched I'm being teased by the SO for spending 3+ hrs a night reading porsche forums/web sites/groups/you name it. I understand the history, which is why I want to ask questions. I'm curious by nature I guess (and maybe paranoid, perhaps obsessively so...? ) Thanks for the replies. Closing the thread off.....except I dont have that option under my thread tools dammit. Maybe that's for members only? All I see are: Show printable Email this page Subscribe Add a poll (better not do this!!)

Damn, I was going to say, Dell is going to go through the roof when he sees this one. But I was too late. PS- My engine is holding steady.

Well, not exactly through the roof but rather setting the record straight and explaining the survey cons in a polite manner. Hey, I'm a changed man now.

Here's an example for you, BrockPorsche, of the warm and happy feelings this subject has elicited in polls in the past: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...t=catastrophic

sweet, I cant wait to see where this thread goes...

Dell old pal, your restraint is commendable

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon501.gif

If you have any strong views on Mac Vs PC, there's a great Vista thread on the 997 forum that's reaching boiling point....

I completely agree about the statistical irrelevance of such a poll, but at the same time it shows something. I've had my G35 for 4 years and I've not known a single person that's ever heard of an engine grenading. Roughly same horsepower/higher torque than a 911...so it's a performance engine. Now that's comparing apples and horses but still, with the 996 I read stories all over about engines blowing, and I've yet to ever see one with the car I own now. Hence, cause for concern (for my OCD personality :P) Why do they only allow members to close threads dammit...stop posting to this thread! We don't want to anger Dell any more

Brock, I ain't mad. Just bored now. ps. trust me, it really does NOT show anything as you assume.

I just discovered that my desk phone makes for a great makeshift q-tip.

For the nose or ear?

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/drink.gif

Ear, although you just gave me another great idea...

I still can't understand why people come to a board where people clearly love their cars of choice, ask a question about downsides and then get offended or saddened when we defend our cars. This is a community of some intelligent (and some not), outspoken people. If our cars were self destructing, there would be an outcry and people telling us to run for the hills. If someone has engine failure, I am interested to hear it so that I can understand when it happened, why it happened, and generally track problems. However, I also get annoyed anytime someone starts a NEW thread trying to poke around about whether our engines will fail or an RMS will leak. The answers are an engine MIGHT fail and an RMS very well could leak. Engine failure would suck, and if the event would bury you financially, don't buy a Porsche. If an RMS leaks, it is less costly than replacing a clutch on a VW Passat. I love the comment about asking a mechanic if he sees cars with problems. That's like asking a doctor if a lot of people get sick.

I'll say this as someone who's gone through an engine replacement: We'll never know how many engine failures there were, are, and will be. We'll never get a very good approximation, either. But it's all in how you view it. For the sake of argument, choose a percentage (or even better, a range of percentages) that you assume is the failure rate. Some people in this forum might choose 2.5%. Some .25%. Others .025%. Some .0025%. Some people on this forum probably think 25% and some 0%, but we'll exclude those morons And that's what it really comes down to. If you decide it's 2.5% and can't accept a 3 in 100 shot that your engine will fail (not an unreasonable attitude, if you ask me), don't buy an M96-based car. If your percentages are near .0025% and can't live with that, don't buy the car. If you think there's a 3 in 100 shot that the engine will fail and can live with that, please come join the P-Car club That's not sarcasm - I don't know or care what the number is, and I'm not even going to pick one. I'm just going to buy a 996TT and thank my lucky stars I had a CPO warranty when my engine failed. It would be nice to know that ballpark number, though. [flamesuit on] Anyone want to guess? [flamesuit off]

In summary, Porsches can be potentially expensive to maintain and own. Also, in recent news, water is wet and grass is still green.

Re: the mechanics...good mechanics have a stable of people they service and cars they know. They can estimate based on the population they service how impactful the engine failures are (number of long term customers, number that have failures). So the point is valid. Who is offended or saddened? I haven't seen any of that, just lively banter You really shouldn't be annoyed when people ask questions. RMS leaks and engine failures are a "known" thing with this car (valid or not) and naturally people will be interested in researching those perceived issues as much as they can before they make a large purchase. Not doing so is just folly. Cheers

IF thats how you feel search for my posts, there are plenty of them

Actual it is NOT valid. The offer still stands to call me during my office hours or to sit in on one of my lectures to get a thorough explanation. Apparently you forgot the definition of validity. And this argument holds ZERO validity. The ONLY validity to your argument that your mechanic estimates is nothing more than descriptive data of the EXACT number of M96 motors he has replaced. So.....how many is it? ps. ask your mechanic if anybody with a 9X6 schedules and appointment to tell him that their motor is fine. See the point yet?

The proper answer is 7. My friend's buddy's aunt's mother-in-law's son who once worked on a used Ford Tractor told me.

Ian, you crack me up!

This is fun, we don't discuss this topic nearly enough.

Dell, just accept that you are among the last of the statistics Jedi. Few remain. I could tell you stories about market research data abuse that would curl your hair. Mention exotic concepts like margin of error or sample design these days, and well-groomed MBAs look at you like so many dogs watching TV. It's the age of truthiness.

To the original poster - as a guy who has paid to have an engine replaced, I believe it is something you have to consider before purchasing one of these early 996's. Your mechanic told you what my mechanic told me - that prior to the 996 he had NEVER seen a Porsche engine do what mine did, and never seen catastrophic problems where Porsche was replacing motors at such a rate. I think that we can all agree that Porsche has never replaced engines in any other model like they have in the 996/Boxter. Correct? Can we at least agree on that? I think that is indisputable. Is that statistical proof that you should not own one of buy one? No. But to me, it does increase the chances that you will be coming out of pocket for a major repair.

Then may the force be with me

Does that make you statistically insignificant then old chap?

I got your insignificant!

joes c4 cab, thanks...good post Glad to see someone actually acknowledges they understand what I'm trying to ask (even though I know a lot of you do, you just choose to belabour) rather than nitpick statistics and whether a mechanics estimate of for every 100 cars he sees 8 have catastrophic failures of the engine is valid or not, or whether a forum poll is meaningful (so why have polls in the forum then?). Of course such a small biased sample makes it completely useless on its OWN...IT IS USELESS ALONE...but my G35 mechanic has NEVER seen a G35 engine die. So as a comparison tool it's rather useful to me Such fun :>

Dell - Wish I could find a picture of slimy Tony Blair doing something similar, but all I can find is him smiling weekly, holding hands, and looking like George's bitch!

My 996 engine was destroyed by a coolant leak. No warranty left. Why did I buy another engine? Because the CAR IS FANTASTIC TO DRIVE!!! Can't wait till it's finished with the new 997S engine. Right now there's a guy doing computer magic on the new ECU. (OK, OK, so it's in line to have that done, but at least thinking about it feeds my track dreams).

BrockPorsche, They hammer everyone who brings this up....don't let it bother you. Don't worry about the car's reliability either. If you want one, buy it, enjoy it, and get if fixed if it breaks and enjoy it some more. All Porsches are great cars and well worth whatever the cost, as long as you can afford it.

What happens if you get OIL on your MAF? Would it go bad more quickly if you got 15W-50 oil on it versus getting 0W-40 on it?

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/nono.gif

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif

About a year ago I sent a mesage to J D Powers trying to get the data that you seek. I got a friendly e-mail message from them giving me the names of two PCNA contacts. Just for laughs I sent messages to both of them asking the same question, and as I expected they didn't even bother to reply. I didn't even get a form letter from them stating that it's not their policy to release information of this nature. So that leaves us with anecdotal information, and this isn't unuusual when making car buying decisions. So if I were you I'd check with friends who have owned 996s and check with your local Porsche mechanics who have extensive experience working on them. I have owned three 911s, the last being a 993, and I have owned two Infinitis. The first one that I bought was a '95 G20 which I got for around $15K. The car is now owned by one of my sons and the engine is running perfectly with well over 200K miles on the odometer. So based on my experience Infiniti engines are extremely durable. Of course Infinitis are no where near as much fun to drive as Porsches. If you have your mind set on a Porsche, you can minimize your risks by buying one that is Certified Pre Owned. That way you will have at least two years of worry free driiving pleasure. On the other hand if you are still undecided, why not postpone your decision for a few months until the '08 G35 coupe is released. The engine in the '08 coupe will be the same one as in the Skyline, and the early speculation is that it will produce about 330 HP. Good luck.

What we need is Oprah to take up our cause with PCNA!

Great PS work! I just spit diet coke through my nose Thanks mate, I needed a good chuckle this afternoon

Careful Dell, that stuff'll kill you! My biology teacher said that you should always dilute 50/50 with either Vodka or Rum to be safe... He's dead now of course, but really well preserved!

My vodka stays as pure as can be with either vermouth or club soda

I guess that's tongue in cheek? I'm reminded of my engine replacement in my E34 BMW. When I had that done, I remember having to wait a few weeks. According to my service advisor, they had only one mechanic who specialized in the short block replacements, and he was busy. So, if you asked that mechanic how many V8 engines failed, he may answer "every one that I've seen". You ask another mechanic in the same shop, and he'd say, "I've never had to repair one". See? Dell's not the only statistic Jedi here, it's just that we all defer to master Yoda to handle all of these when they come up, because he is able to eloquently explain how stupid the whole thing is. Until he gets pissed off, of course. Michael

At least it is not as easy any more. I kinda like the new Dell

Oh, I don't know..... A good "what in the blue hell?!" can be refreshing from time to time......

Ok Kevin, I'll have to remember to pull that out from time to time

I think I'm going to start a thread Survey titled "How many of the porsche owners have started a survey about the reliability of the 996 engines?". Porsche owners saying "engine reliability of 996" reminds me of ..... the knights who say "ni".... LOL !

That's funnier than some of the stuff in off-topic!

Even if we were to agree on that (which won't ever happen until Porsche releases their internal data), even the incidence of X% catastrophic engine failures doesn't mean that M96-based cars are worse than any other. There are plenty of cars with non-catastrophic but chronic problems with engines or the rest of the car that DO add to the cost of maintaining and operating the car. (Last I "heard" those Honda V6 auto trannies were dropping like flies.) In the end, it's whether or not your enjoyment of the prospective vehicle would be negated by the worrying or inability to afford the possible maintenance/expense of driving it. I, for example, know people that own Boxsters (aka 'Chicksters' for some) who are disappointed that their M96 engine has NOT failed because they want an excuse for their SO's to transplant a 911 motor

Here is my take on this subject. My 03 996 engine had to be replaced due to excessive knocking in the intermediate shaft area (it is an early 03 996). This prompted me to do an internet search on this problem and I found and joined this forum as a result. I would guess that many other 996 owners with engine failures found this forum the same way. This, to me, means that this forum shows a heavy bias towards engine failures because if I never had a problem I would not be on this site. Another example (forgive me for getting into this but the example applies perfectly): I had two artificial discs put in my lower back last year (I flew from the U.S. to Germany to get it done) . I belong to a forum of people that are considering getting an ADR (Artificial Disc Replacement) and those that have had it done (kind of like those that are considering a 996 and those that have one....a stretch but it works). If you used this ADR forum to determine if you want to get one done you would get scared away because most people on the site are those that are unhappy with their surgery and are still looking for answers. Everyone else (who by far make up the majority) has had a good outcome and have returned to their life and no longer hang out and post. The mechanic story can also be applied to this experience. There are doctors who have seen terrible results from botched ADR jobs. These doctors will tell their patients to never get an ADR because of their limited experience with poor outcomes, when in fact a very high percentage of patients are very happy with the results. So by listening to one doctor (mechanic) your are not getting the full story. So, IMHO, you should not and cannot make any conclusions based on a poll from this site as it is absolutely biased to one direction-just by its nature. What's great is if you are one of those that have had an engine failure you can use this forum to learn about the process of getting it replaced, learn about how best to break it in and learn about a whole bunch of other great stuff for and about your car. But DON'T use it to make a call on how reliable 996 engines are because this is where those that have engine failures may (and should) reside. P.S. My remanufactured German bionic back is 100% pain free along with my German remanufactured 996 engine. The only regret I have is that I could not afford a GT3 because the cost of the surgery was about the difference between the cost of a Targa and a GT3. But, I will take no back pain and a 996 targa any day!

Luckily, only one "catastrophic" back failure for me, but I'd trade it for an engine failure in a second Congrats on two successful outcomes and glad you are enjoying both. Nice scenery/pic for your avatar as well.

One problem with that logic is that by far the majority of the people the browse this forum did NOT come here with engine failures. At least that seems to be the concensus from reading various threads on this topic. I know I certainly did not.

The majority of people on this site have not had an engine failure either. The point is you will not get a good idea of engine failure statistics by polling this site as it is not random.

I get that Read the thread. It's all about relative comparisons, not absolute statistics. A poll here for the sake of a poll is relatively meaningless, as has been pointed out numerous times by the poll police

Well, not to split hairs, but when this question is asked it's usually not motivated by a desire for statistics. It's really about trying to assess probability. That's what people REALLY want to know... what are the chances it will happen to me? The answer is unknowable. Because Porsche won't say how many it's happened to. Because it's impossible on a forum like this to build a sample that represents all Porsche owners. Because we'd never be able to agree on the control sample (all cars? German cars? Exotic cars? Expensive cars? 300 hp cars?). And because the past is not necessarily a predictor anyway (many incidences involved low mileage cars early in their service life, and early in the life of the series). For all we know, the probability decreases with time. Almost certainly, the probability isn't static across time and mileage. Unknowable. And I don't think there are any poll police here. Just some guys that find the subject futile and a buzzkill.

hey Bruce, you do realize that probability is a statistic? Geez, do we have to have stats101 again?

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Unfortunately, that supposition would be somewhat flawed. In the past Porsche sold internal engine parts and dealers would tear down problematic engines to repair if possible. Starting with the Boxster Porsche changed this process. They no loger sell internals and engines are no longer repaired in the field. As a result, Porsche probably replaces more engines now than in the past.

Oh, er... right. Does this mean I have to clean those blackboard brushes again? I am NOT wearing that pointy hat with the D on it this time...

I can attest to this as my motor did not explode, it was just a little "noisy" where it shouldnt be. I pushed it a little with Rusnak Porsche and they agreed. Everything was perfect except it was noisy around the cam chain/intermediate shaft area so they replaced the whole motor. I would bet anything it could have been fixed and I would not be a "new motor" stastic but they chose to repalce rather than repair. I for one am glad they did.

That is exactly my point. I would bet if dealers were still working on these motors many would be repaired rather than replaced (IMHO).

Dell banned?!?!?!?!?!