Roll bar question: I have a 2002 cab that I may be taking to a few track days with..

the Audi Club in my area. They requires a roll bar for all cab. The pop up things are not enough. All of the documentation says the roll bar must be SCCA approved. Does anyone know of an SCCA approved roll bar for a cab or if the Porsche one is SCCA approved? Also, I'd rather not keep it in between events. For the bolt in type, how much of a pain is it to take in and out? (I work on my own cars and would like to do it myself.) Thanks in advance.

its a huge pain to take it in and out

Don't know if the Porsche one is SCCA approved, but it really isn't that tough to take in and out. Out takes ten minutes. Putting it in the first time may take some time, but subsequent installations are less than a 30 minute job. You just need to be careful getting the bolt started so you don't strip the threads, but otherwise pretty straightforward.

I have the Tequipment harness roll bar in my CAB and it is a PITA to take in and out. Once it is in you need to leave it in until you are ready to stop tracking that car. You would think it is an easy in and out thing but it is not. Also, this is not a single person job. I am probably going to be removing the Teq bar I have and selling it next month if my wife prefers the GT3 over the CAB at the track. Then we will both track the GT3 and return the CAB to street driving only. Feel free to PM if you have any questions about it.

Do a lot of car groups require roll bars for 996 Cabriolets for their track events? I'm doing events with below groups that are fine with the standard pop-ups of the 996 (I guess at least as you're not in their fastest group): - Car Guys Inc. - PCA Schattenbaum (NJ) - PCA Potomac (DC area) - NorthEast R32 group

It's not so much that it is the car groups but rather the track. For example, most PCA regions/chapters have stated that the 9X6 cars have sufficient safety rollover protection and do not require the rollbar. But, at VIR they REQUIRE a rollbar for ALL open top cars. Remember, the track will trump the event organization if they have the HIGHER level of required safety protection.

Thanks guys - In this case, it is the Audi Club that is insisting on roll bars. I believe this is an insurance issue for the club. I know for sure it's not a track rule since I've seen cabs on the track before. It looks like the DAS rollbar is SCCA approved. I'll check into the Porsche one.

I should have added to my post that not only does the track trump the club if they have the higher level of safety equipment required but the club will also have the their own safety requirements and if they are higher than the track you will ALWAYS default to the HIGHER level of needed equipment.

Your cab will not be allowed at an Audi Club event. Here are the Audi Club's rules right off their website: Convertibles at Driving Schools: The current guideline is the minimum recommendation set by ACNA. Any track venue or ACNA Chapter may at their discretion set more stringent recommendations. The recommended minimum guideline for consideration beginning January 1, 2006: No convertibles will be allowed to participate at any ACNA driving school that takes place at a "race track" - This includes TTs, Boxsters, BMWs etc. Vehicles with factory roll hoops and / or deployable roll over protection will not be allowed. The above excluded vehicles will be allowed to participate at the following venues were maximum speed is not to exceed 50 MPH; Exercises at a driving school if the exercises are not held on the track but in a confined area. Autocross events if the maximum speed is controlled. Teen driving clinics. Winter driving schools. For these vehicles to participate at these low speed events the broomstick rule must be enforced. Minimum clearance, with helmet, of one>two inches below the imaginary line from the roll hoop to the top of the windshield frame. For the above excluded vehicles to be allowed to participate at a "race track� the minimum requirements are; A four point roll cage consisting of a main hoop behind the front seats with two rear braces. A four and preferably five point safety harness. Arm restraints are recommended but not required at this time. Removable hard tops are not considered structural roofs. The only exception is if they meet the minimum "race track" requirements.

I find it really irresponsible for them to allow 4pt belts but require a rollbar. They need to mandate 5/6pt harnesses if they are going to require a rollbar.

Mike - Those are the exact rules I was referring to and am familiar with. As long as I put in a SCCA approved roll bar and it passes the broom stick rule AND I contact the event organizer prior, they WILL let me particpate. I've done Audi events in the past (with my Audi S4) and tried to get the 996 out there after a car failure last year. I wanted to tow the S4 home and come back the next day in the 996. That's when this whole roll bar thing came up. My issue is: It must be an SCCA approved roll bar (not just any roll bar) - - that was the basis for my question.

Have you been following the thread on the DE forum about the PCA's new rules for next year? I'm not sure where I come down on all this. Everyone has the same goal (safety). I've put on two ACNA schools, and I'm now working with the PCA here on one. Schroth makes a four point with an antisubmarining mechanism that they claim works. The PCA has it's new harness rules which generally make sense. However, you can still show up in a convertible that doesn't pass broomstick muster and go out with your standard lap belts. I find it hard to argue that convertible is safer than an A4 or M3 hardtop with the Schroth system.

I haven't seen the post. Do you have a link? I completely understand the reasoning behind the rules and in NO way disagree. But, in order to play by the rules and use my 996 cab at an Audi event I need to install an SCCA approved roll bar. I'm happy to do it so I can use my 996 at a track day. I just don't know which roll bars are approved and which are not.

jasonfreed, I hear ya. I was just on the SCCA website trying to find the regulation and couldn't come up with it. The new for 2008 PCA harness rule I mentioned above is here: The purpose of this email is to inform you of a change in the Driver�s Education National Standards regarding the use of safety harnesses which will become effective on Jan.1, 2008. The current �Equal Restraint� Standard states that both the student and instructor shall have the same restraint system. The problem with this Standard is that it does not define the complete system, in terms of the type of seat to be used with a 5 or 6 point harness. The new �Harness� Standard (See below) is written to compliment the �Equal Restraint� Standard and will go into effect January 1, 2008, but a region may adopt the standard earlier. The new standard states that if a harness system is installed, it must be used in conjunction with a seat with manufacturer supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. These routing holes insure that the belts will remain in place when needed. A one piece seat is recommended but not required for it may interfere with the operation of the OEM three piece belt required for street application. Thank you for your help in implementing this new standard. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Pete Tremper National DE Committee Chairman [email removed] (O)[phone removed] (H)[phone removed]

thanks for the info - I found the thread on the DE forum. Looks like everyone will need track cars soon or stay stock

Oh oh, Dell, looks like there could be a SECOND GT3 in your future!

Not a chance.

I've been doing DE since 1992 and this is always a problem - different clubs have different rules and there is always that debate about 3 pt versus 4 pt versus 5/6 pt. As an instructor, I've had to get into some cars with very questionable restraint systems, and that is one of the main reasons that I do not do in-car instruction any more. An "SCCA approved" rollbar is a little misleading, because SCCA has specific requirements for safety cage construction and installation. You can have a cage/rollbar that is made of sufficiently strong steel to pass SCCA requirements, but if it is installed incorrectly, then it can fail. It's funny... I remember doing tech inspections (for a Solo II program) on cars, and one guy refused to let us drill an inspection hole in his bar. He was probably one of those ****-retentive Porsche owners (j/k). I explained to him that we could not determine the thickness of the metal unless we made a small hole to insert the micrometer, but he just wouldn't budge. And so he didn't race. I applaud all of you who do DE events and learn to be better drivers and get to enjoy your car on the track. PLEASE do not take your very expensive car out on track and be a cheap-*** on safety equipment, OK? I've been stuffed into the wall three times now, once driving and twice instructing. You can buy a new car, but you can't buy a new head. There is no substitute for a well designed and installed rollcage (or at minimum, a rollbar with integral belt mounts) and a proper 5 point harness. These days too, a HANS device is strongly encouraged and you really should, if it all possible, disconnect all of your airbags as well. An airbag is redundant with a harness and if you do wreck, you will save thousands by not having to replace all those things. BTDT. Michael

A buddy is an instructor with ACNA and he has the Tequipment bar on his 996-cab.

AC 996C2 - Interesting. I spoke a local race shop who told me the Tequipment bar was NOT SCCA approved. I have no doubt the bar from Porsche would be safe, but, the Audi Club requires I show proof of SCCA approval. If he's instructing for the Audi Club and they let him use it, I'd bet the people doing tech don't know. The bottom line is, after speaking with the event organizer at the Audi event when my S4 broke and I was hoping to go home and pick up the 996, it is an insurance issue. The Audi Club doesn't pay for insurance for cabs without roll bars. There are not enough cabs showing up to justify the extra expense. There are lots of TT owners upset about it. The Porsche Club apparently feels the roll over protection from the factory is enough and/or they pay for the insurance at trac days for cabs. The Audi Club is different. As I said before, I have no complaints about the different rules. I just don't want to buy a roll bar, pay for track pads, register for an event, show up and get turned away. It's fairly confusing trying to figure out what to buy that will work everywhere. MJBird993 - I agree safety is the most important thing at these DE. The Audi Club requires equal protection for both driver and passenger. If you put harnesses in your car, there must be one for driver and passenger. From what I can tell about the 996 bolt in roll bars, there is really no way to install them wrong. The prices are similar between the DAS and the Tequipment bar. If one comes with a piece of paper (however meaningless it may be) that says it's SCCA approved and one does not, I need to buy the one with the piece of paper stating SCCA approval or I will not be allowed to participate in the event.

I find it odd that ACNA defaults to SCCA for what they deem approved for a rollbar. Why wouldn't ACNA have an approved list? PCA has their list and each track has theirs and you ALWAYS default to the higher safety requirement (club or track).

Michael, insurance companies call this a pattern. Not good my friend.

LVDell - I agree it's odd. I have no clue how the decision was made. I'd bet the club was told by the insurance company what minimum was needed to insure the event for the least $$$ (ie: best bang for the buck). I've seen some "questionable" cars on the track as far as safety goes. As you said, they always default to the higher safety requirement. I think (not sure but almost sure) that the ACNA has higher safety requirements than the tracks (at least at the events I've been to). What would an example be of a time where the track required something more than a club? Just curious, I have no experience outside of the ACNA.

Example would be VIR. We have a PCA safety list that approves the popups and rollbars in the 996CAB and the 986 but the track VIR requires all open top cars (even with the hardtop installed) to have a rollbar installed. However, CMP does NOT require the rollbar so you can run there. We had to buy a rollbar for my wife's CAB before we could run VIR.

Ah, I see. It appears the ACNA is more stringent than the tracks I go to. I've been told if I do Porsche Club DE at the same tracks, I'd be fine with my pop up protection. It's just more fun for me to do ACNA events since I know the people. Looks like I'm buying a roll bar....now which one is the question? Anything worth looking at other than the DAS and the Tequipment (which I need to check on again to see if it would be OK with the ACNA)? Thanks for the info.

I looked into both. I chose the Teq bar because I liked the look of it and becasue I prefer to buy OEM pieces for the car. There was ZERO modification done to install the Teq bar and IIRC correctly there is some drilling involved with one of the DAS bars. If it is permanent then no biggie but I didn't intend on keeping it in the car for very long since we moved to a GT3 with a roll bar.

I've talked to the several of the ACNA officers and their insurance agent about their safety requirements. Unless something changed in the last year, the PCA and ACNA actually use the same insurance company. The rule differences don't come from the insurer but from the club. The insurer offers suggestions, but the rules come from the club. The PCA has decided that it wants to allow cabs, maybe because it sells so many. ACNA has decided that the risk in cabs is too high without a cage. Why ACNA has not instituted its own cage requirements I could only speculate. I can tell you that it puts on far less events than the PCA or even BMW clubs. In addition, ACNA is much smaller than the PCA. It may simply be that ACNA has not deployed the manpower/resources to investigate and create its own list of approved cages.

Good point Mike.

Good to know Mike. The event organizers of the ACNA events I've done tell the participants that the roll cage issue is an inusrance issue NOT a club issue. They have told me it costs too much to include cabs in the covered group and it would increase the cost for everyone. Just saying what they told me. I wonder if there could be different types of insurance from the same insurer? ie: the PCA can buy one plan for a 2 day DE that will not exclude cabs (lots of Boxters and 996s I'd guess) and the ACNA excludes cabs for a slightly reduced price. Certainly any isurance company can carve out a particular group for a rate change? I don't know - it's sort of a moot point since the rules are in place. I just want to track the 996 once this year instead of my pig S4. Tossing a 3700lb family sedan into a corner is fun but I'd like to try it in the Porsche.

What are you trying to say, Dell? Are you saying, that somehow it's my fault? Huh? Look, I'm just driving down the track, minding my own damn business, and the wall chose to jump out in front of me. That's all. And I wasn't - burp - drinking. No, really, I wasn't. Anyway Jason, I hear ya - I remember years ago I registered for a BMW school at Mid-Ohio but sold my Porsche before I went, so I brought my Z06. Fortunately it was a hardtop, as the standard Corvette is a targa. Apparently that group does not permit targas, so if I had driven my earlier (C4) Corvette, I would have been SOL and one mightily pissed-off person after driving 10 hours for nothing. So, I'm all about being prepared and getting the correct equipment for the school. And in the future, the requirements are only going to get more strict, not less. Not with people buying things like M3s and Corvettes and Porsches with 300, 400 horsepower out of the box. Damn scary. Ask me again why I don't instruct. Anyway, good luck, and have fun! And Dell, when we finally get to meet in person, I'll take you for a ride and demonstrate how those accidents couldn't possibly have been my fault. We can use the GT3, right? Michael

Michael you missed your true calling. You should have been a comic!

The DAS Weekender bar for coupes has the option of drilling for beefier feet, but can be installed without drilling. PCA racing requires the drilled version, IIRC. I'm afraid I haven't a clue if it will fit a Cab. The DAS Cab bar does require drilling, but the DAS website says that it is SCCA-approved.

It is possible that there is a different rate depending on what you want covered. I never asked that question. I can tell you for sure that the PCA clubs spend far less on DE insurance per event than the ACNA clubs for a comparable event. The reason is that the national organization buys the policy and then to the extent it wants recoups that fee from individual chapters on a per event basis. ACNA puts on significantly less track events. Therefore, the price is much higher per event. I can also tell you from my personal experience that sometimes club leaders are told by the staff at the national organization that rules come from the insurer when they are not actually mandated by the insurer.

ahhhh, I see. The plot thickens Sounds like there may be a little more to this "NO CABS WITHOUT CAGES" than meets the eye.