Help Needed!! Speeding Ticket in Charlotte, NC...

... received a speeding ticket in Charlotte, NC this AM for driving 88 in a 65 MPH zone. Radar detector did not go off and when I asked the officer how he clocked me he said that he got me via some 'time/distance measurement' and he used a term I do not remember anymore. Given the speed he charged me with this means an automatic court appearance in Mecklenburg County, so need some help here.. - Anybody have experience with Charlotte speeding ticks? - Should I get a lawyer... any references? - Any other advice? Thanks!

Not automatic, unless you want to go waste your time and get charged. You will need the services of the #1 attorney in Charlotte. If it wasn't a radar ticket, and he used old technology Vascar (time/distance), you will likely walk on this one. R or MR noted on the pink form he handed you is Radar or Moving Radar. Without it, he has less chance (my opinion) of nailing you on this one. Sounds like another case of jealous cop. I've emailed you the information you need. Call him Monday first thing, and follow my instructions. Good luck.

Eric, We have vascar here in PA, can you also pass along the info that you have to me? - I'd be interested in learning the defects. I'd assumed that it was less accurate, but I didn't realize it was easier to get out of the ticket. I'd prefer to have radar (local police here in PA are not allowed to use radar), because at least you can get some warning that they're there.

Eric, Thanks for info and was good talking to you. I will keep you posted. It was indeed VASCAR that the officer called it... have been surfing online for a bit and am quite surprised about this method... read this! http://travel.3dresearch.com/prep1.html In Allegheny County, Pennsylvania one can appeal the District Justice's order to the Common Pleas Court (County Court). This really isn't an appeal, this is trial de novo (new trial) where the people of the state are represented by a prosecutor. This is also a court of record; a transcriptionist will record everything the participants of the trial say. The Common Pleas Court is certainly "prime time justice" compared to the District Court. Those charged with speeding will only get a censored version of this "prime time justice": Pennsylvania law does not allow these defendants to plead their case to the jury of their peers. Speeders must do with a Judge. Our man prepared for his trial by researching literature about VASCAR and Pennsylvania law about speed enforcement. VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer and Recorder) is really a stopwatch coupled with a calculator. Once a distance is entered, the operator pushes a button to start then stop the stopwatch. VASCAR displays the speed calculated from the distance entered and the time measured. Thus, a VASCAR measurement depends on human input. Therefore, in order to make a VASCAR measurement as accurate as possible, the observer's/operator's reaction time must be as short as possible. (Reaction time is defined as "the time interval between an input signal (physiological) or a stimulus (psychophysiological) and the response elicited by the signal.) What is considered "normal" human reaction time? First, let's take a look at the best: Drag racers. Average reaction time of (Top Fuel) drag racers at the 1997 U.S. Nationals was 0.124 � 0.082 second. Imagine that our cop running VASCAR is a super cop, with drag racer like reaction times: What kind of error is introduced into the VASCAR speed measurement by a reaction time of 0.124 second? With the numbers testified to by our cop: Distance _________________ = Measured Speed Real time � Error 100 ____________ = 60.096 feet/second (40.97 mph) 1.54 + 0.124 or 100 ____________ = 70.621 feet/second (48.15 mph) 1.54 - 0.124 depending on whether the cop was 0.124 second too quick or too late. The calculation above takes into consideration only one opportunity for error. However, the cop must not only start the VASCAR's stopwatch, but he also must stop it. Thus, he can introduce the error twice: 100 ____________ = 55.928 feet/second (38.13 mph) 1.54 + 0.248 or 100 ____________ = 77.399 feet/second (52.77 mph) 1.54 - 0.248 Looks like we are getting some error margin here: it is almost 15 mph. But wait a minute: the cop alleged that he clocked our man 66 mph (96.8 feet/second). If true, the elapsed time over 100 feet distance was 1.033 second. The error in speed reading introduced by human reaction time becomes even more severe: 100 _____________ = 78.064 feet/second (53.225 mph) 1.033 + 0.248 or 100 _____________ = 127.388 feet/second (86.855 mph) 1.033 - 0.248 WOW! An error margin of more than 33 mph! And remember, we assumed that the super cop in this example has reaction times similar to a drag racer! Imagine if the cop is only human: Average adults show reaction times around 0.3 second -- it's not even worthwile to do the calculation. Obviously, we can no longer talk about accuracy and VASCAR in the same sentence. One can conclude that using VASCAR over a 100-foot distance cannot yield any accurate speed reading for the speeds alleged in our man's case. We come to this conclusion even before considering other sources of error, such as visual distortion introduced by the parallax effect. And what about the law? This is what you find in � 3368 of Title 75 of the Pennsylvania Code: (4) No person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraphs (2) and (3) unless the speed recorded is six or more miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit. Furthermore, no person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (3) in an area where the legal speed limit is less than 55 miles per hour if the speed recorded is less than ten miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit. This paragraph shall not apply to evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (3) within a school zone. VASCAR is a device authorized by paragraph (3). Looks like even Pennsylvania lawmakers acknowledge that VASCAR is not a precise method for measuring speed. Our man was pleased to find the section in red of the above paragraph: All he had to do to convince the judge that 100 feet in 1.54 second is not 66 mph but about 44 mph, with no error. The judge should dismiss the case. But will the judge listen? Although the math "problem" here is rather trivial, perhaps the judge will be more likely believe someone with a degree in math. Thus, our man enlisted the help of his friend, who is a CMU graduate with a degree in mathematics

Wow! So, even though the local police here in PA are using VASCAR for local roads (35, 45, 50mph), they are not legally authorized to do so?!?!? I'm amazed. We have lines painted all over the roads for this junk and the method is worthless. The good news is that I guess it can be fought and if we get in front of a reasonable judge, then the ticket can be struct down. I'm still in shock. No wonder they keep putting an authorization for radar on the ballet (and having it struct down). That is cool! I'd always figured it was inaccurate, but that there must be some authorization, or method for them making the results valid, I guess I was wrong. Thanks!

I was going to offer my "expertise" here..but you got it! Miles per hour and Distance per second That is my pretty much fool proof method to fight tickets...especially Radar. The only way you are pretty much going to lose is when a cop PACES you...you cannot win those. But the visual BS one...and Radar/Laser using the formula you have you will win. All you have to do is discredit the copper..show some sort of error margin..and they will let you go. unless...the judge is in a bad mood and then you are screwed. Good luck! and keep those formulas in your hat! That is my secret! hahahahaa!

So radar can be challenged using the same logic? My understanding was that argument typically got thrown out of court if used. What am I missing here?

The only downfall to this; police officers have to go through a school and get "certified", so they can have "knowledge" enough to say that they did an accurate assessment of your speed. Everything must go in your favor to get completely out of it. If get away with only court-cost, I'd say you did good. Good luck!

Yeah, I'd be more comfortable challenging VASCAR than radar. Now that I have the information above I'm armed and ready if I get a ticket using that dumb system.

In a few days you will receive a letter from at least one law office in NC, give them a call to see what his cost will be. If it's cheaper for you to be present in court then fight it yourself.

Signs of Vascar are a painted line going horizontally across the roadway or a red cone on the side of the road seemingly for no reason. The most obvious sign is the police car on a straight stretch of road less than a quarter of a mile away with a patrolman looking at you with binoculars and 1-3 others to chase or flag you down.

Nope...they're legal, but you have to be shown as being at least 6 over to be written. One of the fine officers of Buckingham, a department you are surely familiar with if you're in Doylestown, had a VASCAR ticket thrown out a couple years back because the case was made that he was too.....ahem...fat....to have a proper reaction time. Medical evidence was presented that overweight individuals lose some of their reaction time, etc, etc. And yes, one can still get out of a pacing ticket. If the car's spedo had not been tested/calibrated in the last (forget....30 or so days) it can't be used.

In MD it's not that tough to get out of a speeding ticket if your driving record has been clean for the past three years. The judge will generally give the offender PBJ, Probation before Judgement. So as long as you aren't charged with another moving volation durong the probation period, the speeding charge is removed form your record. If you are offered PBJ, all you need do is to pay the court costs and drive carefully for at least six months. The probation period varies by jurisdiction.

Radar is the easiest to fight...I am telling you..there are so many variables in radar that all you need to do is show doubt..and margin of error. using the formula above you can win radar. lets say a cop says he catches you on the freeway/expressway going 75 in a 55 using his radar. So depending on time of day..you have traffic considerations. there are multiple targets on the freeway..bouncing back different signals. Where was he parked? or was he driving? Make him state exactly where he saw you. So the cop says I saw him at callbox 123 and I radared him and pulled him over. So then you confirm where you got pulled over. He hits the lights and you pull over...300-500 feet away from where he saw you. (going back and taking pictures and using a thomas guide to show ACTUAL DISTANCE is crucial) Using the above speed = distance traveled..you can argue...he had no time to see you, pick up his radar, point at you...get the correct reading, put the gun down, turn on his lights and pull you over. How long does that take? 1 min? 3 mins? I dont have the math but if you were indeed travelling 75mph that means you would be traveling X feet per second...so depending on what the cop says on the stand, "oh it took me 30 sec to a minute to do all of that"...well...you just won. 30 secs equals how many feet if you were traveling at 75mph? I guarantee the math will be MUCH FARTHER than where he ended up pulling you over...congrats you just won... I totally simplified the above...but that is how I won my case. If anyone watns some specific help feel free to PM me and I will help ya out! The cop after the case came over and actually shook my hand and he said.."good job, you did your homework." I was like you jerk! Also if you are fighting this yourself... do not forget your right to DISCOVERY! Send a registered letter to the clerks office. They have to send you the back of the officer's ticket, where he writes his notes and they have to send you his radar certification and model number and the last time he was certified. You as the defendant have the right to all this info. So demand it in writing...if the court does not reply when it is your court date..show the judge the registered letter and you never got a reply he has to throw it out! Bam you win!

Thanks Daryl - so some wiggle room, but not a lot. I'm not a big fan of VASCAR - it seems to wide open for error that I'm amazed that it's still used... good to know the ways to get out of a ticket if it's a close call. I was taking my car out for a final fling today before detailing it and hibernating it. I jumped onto the Turnpike and was greeted at the end of the merge with a state trooper hiding behind a bridge. Thankfully the radar detector and the wall of brake lights tipped me off before I accelerated past 75.... my spoiler was up, but I managed to brake down to 61 before I got close to him.

I read the website that Duchie posted and it gives all of the court documents - a very interesting read. The guy got off on appeal because you have to be measured at at least 10 over the posted limit to be ticketed. Great stuff to know considering that those lines are painted all over PA.

While I do not have experience with speeding tickets in Charlotte, I do have experience with NC speeding tickets. In NC you can request a Prayer For Judgement. http://www.speedingticketcentral.com...ng-ticket.html Each household may receive one Prayer for Judgment Continued (PFJ) every three years without it counting as a conviction. If you have a minor North Carolina speeding ticket, you do not need a North Carolina attorney. Call the court and find out how to contact the ADA handling your case. Go by and talk to him about a reduction to a 9mph over ticket or a PFJ. A 9mph speeding ticket will not raise your rates if you have a clean record. This may be a better option and save your PFJ for a more serious North Carolina speeding ticket. A Prayer for Judgment is normally only available if you have a North Carolina drivers license. To add to the above cited link and quote, if you have a clean driving record for the last three years, you can order a certified copy of your driving record and take it with you to traffic court. The speeding offence is reduced and you can leave with just paying court costs. The certified copy is available immediately if you drive to Raleigh, or it can be ordered through the internet. Expect two weeks processing time. The last ticket I received, was for 68 in a 55 (and I wasn't even in the P-car). It was just after the transition from 65 to 55. I was in traffic, but regardless, I was speeding. The Officer that stopped me actually told me about this "out". When I went to traffic court, I asked for an extension because I had not received my certified copy of my driving record. The "Judge" asked me if I "wanted to go ahead and wrap this up now, and not have to return"? I said "Yes". He entered a PFJ. I payed court costs ~$125.00. and walked away. OT, are you interested in a fun run to WV with the Carolina Region PCA Sunday, 12/10? This run will leave the hotel in Clemmons after the Saturday night Chrismas party. We'll be checking out the facilities for the Spring Tour at Pipestem Resort. There is a meet planned to pick up stragglers at US 421 and I-77 around 9:30, Sunday AM. You should be back in Charlotte around dark that Sunday. PM me if you are interested.

you can ask for a trial by written declaration....go to ticketassasin.com and read the part about speed violations...I got my bail back...because there are a couple of things you can do....especially when one of those "idiots" (sorry I can't help myself...I am going to councelling for it and I now only call them idiots) comes up with the BS: Speed distance time calculation. Fight it Dutchie!! I heb het gedaan en gewonnen!!

This summer I got a ticket in the same county. I blew by the officer and although he didn't know my speed he ticketed me for reckless driving. He listed the speed as above 85 in a 60. I paid an attorney ~$300 and she had the ticket thrown out as long as I took a drivers ed course. I did an online course in a few hours for ~$30 and moved on with life. Defiitely the way to go in my opinion. I'm on vacation right now so I don't have the attorneys name handy but I can get it if you need it. Shawn

I've had two tickets in NC for speeding, both 16 MPH over the limit. That's mandatory "show up in court or lose your license" stuff around here. Both times I hired a local (Raleigh) attorney and for $250 (his fee & court costs) I got it down to a 4 MPH over, i.e. no points. A PFJ wouldn't qualify (as I understand it) because if you are 15 MPH or more over the limit, that's "serious". Secondly, if you get another citation in those 3 years since the PFJ then the old ticket gets reinstated and now you're fighting both (or may even forfeit the original one). I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. My advice: find a lawyer, let them handle it, you'll be fine. NC allows lawyers to solicit business, so you'll be getting several letters in the mail, lots to choose from. Michael

Spoke with Eric's lawyer this morning and he feels very good that he can get it reduced to 74.9 miles in a 65 zone or even 70 miles. Will keep all of you posted. Thanks Eric!

Touche

Nicolaas, I'm proud of you! Baby steps. You're allowed to call them idiots, that's okay. There are many occasions when I've thought the same thing.

thanks oreganet....I am eating only beef and chicken at the advice of my "shrink"

Hopefully they're dead and cooked.

I got a "wreckless driving" ticket the day after I bought my car & was driving home from Virginia.....99 in a 65, anything over 85 is wreckless driving. I got on the phone & contacted an attourney there & he took care of it for me. It cost like $800 by the time it was done, but at least I did not have to go back there from Houston to appear...

Update... My court date was on Tuesday and my lawyer got this down to 74 in a 65... will cost me 3 points on my license, but no insurance points/increase. The lawyer was well worth the money!! Thanks to all... especially Eric!

Congrats! ... I think.

On Dec. 30, 2006, I received a similar ticket for 85 in a 65 on US 421 in Wilkes County, NC. Becca and I were in her MB, had the Valentine One on (she had turned it down) and a CD playing (I had turned it up) and earlier in the day I had been drinking (starting the New Year a little early). The Trooper was sitting on the ramp, and shot us in the back. After doing his thing, he asked me to come back to his car. I sat down and he had me recite the ABCs twice, looked in my eyes with his pen light, and questioned me about my drinking. Then he had me blow through a tube to check my alcohol level. I was below the limit, and he was not happy. I asked if he would tell me what my blood/alcohol level was, and he said "No, but the judge would know and it would be taken into consideration when I was sentenced". I asked if he would reduce the speed one mph to make the ticket for 84 in a 65. Again, he said "No", gave me my paperwork and recommended Becca drive. She drove until we were got to the exit for Powderhorn, our destination for the weeekend, then we swapped seats again. Just as in Charlotte, the 20 mph over the posted limit is a required appearance in court. I googled traffic attorneys in Wilkesboro NC, and contacted a firm by phone. Speaking to the receptionist, I explained what happened and she said to mail them a check for $300.00 (attorney's fees) + $135.00 (court costs), and the citation. No appearance in court would be required of me, nor was it necessary for me to meet with the attorney. I received a letter from the attorney Friday. "This is to advise you that I was able to dispose of your speeding citation in Wilkes county on February 1, 2007. You were found responsible for improper equipment, which is a moving violation and should not affect your driver's license or your automobile insurance. This was the desired result, especially with the high rate of speed... I am asking that you send a check, in the amount of $5.00..." The court costs were $5.00 more than quoted. He even sent me the receipt from the Clerk of Court. This is quite a contrast to the Charlotte ticket that started this thread. Both were for 85 in a 65. Dutchie was clocked by the officer using a time/distance method, I was clocked using radar. Dutchie received 3 license points and I received no points. Is the difference the attorney, the courts, or both?

The difference is that the outcome in traffic court is often arbitrary within one court. Comparing two courts? Impossible.

Depends on the county as well. Charlotte is in Mecklenburg which is notoriously difficult. I did receive a speeding ticket in Caberus county (county next to Mecklenburg) and if you have a clean driving record they will automatically change a speeding ticket in an equipment malfunction. Mecklenburg won't do this. So, it's not only a State thing... county to county can be a night and day difference as well.