DANGER!!!! MASSIVE BUYER BEWARE!!!

Warning, the following post will contain some venting, but you have my complete oath, there will be no exaggeration and everything you hear is the 100% straight truth. I am about to name names�� As I have made clear in several past posts, I have been on the search for a 1999-2000 996 coupe, with aero-kit. I have had little luck but finally found one at a use car dealer called Auto Showcase Motorcars, in Baltimore Maryland. They are located at 4010 West Northern Parkway, Baltimore, MD. 21215. It was actually a 1999 Carrera 4, which can be viewed online, at their site, by visiting: http://www.getauto.com/autolinks_car...AA2997XS625881 The asking price on this car when I called and spoke to the salesman named Ted was $36,900 with 54,xxx miles. Clearly, the interior color isn�t spectacular, but the car does have some nice aftermarket 19 inch rims, sitting on some 315mm rear rubber. I was able to agree upon a purchase price of $35,900 assuming the car passed a PPI to my satisfaction. I was rest assured by the owner of dealership named Dave that this car would pass a PPI without any problem and that he was so confident that it would pass, he offered to pay for my airfare home back to Boston, Ma. if it did not pass. I asked for that in writing, in an agreement to purchase agreement, to be signed, and faxed to me, twice, and it never was. I made arrangements with a local Porsche dealership called Len Stoler. He can be located at 11275 Reisterstown Road, Owings Mills, MD. 21117 or at www.lenstoler.com Their service manager is a gentleman named Mo, who was very kind and helpful on the phone with me trying to play how/when this PPI could happen. I asked Dave from the dealership to have the car brought over there for the PPI, which I had no problem paying for at a flat fee of $225, at which point, if it passed, I would fly down for a test drive, with check in hand, and if pleased, buy the car, and drive it home. Dave refused to take the car over because he said he was concerned about the $8000 rims it had. I suggested that he have it taken over and back on a flatbed and he also refused. He again said, that if I came down, I could take it over there myself for the PPI, and if it didn�t pass, he would buy my airfare home. I made arrangements to fly down on Wednesday, March 29, 2006. Ted, the salesman at the dealer picked me up at the airport at 9:00am and we drove back to see the car at the showroom. It looked virtually perfect. One sport looked as though it might have been repainted, otherwise, the car was pretty amazing. I was not allowed to drive the car to the Porsche dealer as told on the phone, but instead, their sales manager Mike drove me, and Ted followed behind in his personal car with my father, who also came to keep me company for the day. Once at the dealership, the car was looked at by a Carrera GT certified mechanic and was not on the lift for 10 minutes when I was called into the garage. My father followed, as did sales manager Mike, and salesman Ted. The mechanic, Sid, who was extremely knowledgeable, detailed a few things to me right off the bat: 1. The car is not a Carrera 4, even though badged as one, and advertised on their website, and I was told over the phone, it is actually a Carrera 2. 2. The entire car has been repainted at some point 3. The rear main seal was leaking, and needed replacement. (Est. Cost $1200) 4. The front breaks needed new pads and rotors (Est. Cost $850) 5. Needs new mass air flow sensors (Est. Cost $1200) 6. Airbag had been replaced at some point. 7. Needs new cam covers (Est. Cost $600) 8. Tires are not Porsche approved I made it very clear to Mike, the sales manager I was extremely unhappy with this result. My father said to forget the whole idea right now and walk away, but I was entertaining the idea of seeing if they would fix some of these things, and lower the price by, a large amount. Mike called Dave and informed him of what happened, at which point they said to me, �well, how much do you want to pay for it.� I told them that�s not how car deals work, and that they made a guarantee to me about this car passing or paying for my flight home. I said, listen, we can talk about a new price, after you fix the following stuff, or forget the whole deal. Take me back to the airport, and pay for my tickets home. At which point, I wanted to make sure the guys at Len Stoler were paid for their time, they were very nice, and helpful. I went to the cashier to pay for the inspection, and when I returned, they were gone! Not like, in the next room, but took the Porsche, took the other car, and flat out left! I called Ted on his cell, which was clearly off. Then called Dave, the dealership owner. He said that he didn�t know where they went (BS), and that he wasn�t paying for my flight home, nor giving me a ride back to the airport, and hung up on me shortly there after. I am truly at a loss at this point. I called the Baltimore police but they were of little help. One of the technicians at Len Stoler offered to take my father and I back to the airport, which was extremely nice of him, at which point, we booked our own flight home and left. I have considered the following courses of action: 1. I must now file a claim with my credit card to get my deposit of $500 back. 2. Call the Better Business Bureau and file a formal complaint. 3. Call the Maryland RMV and file a formal complaint. 4. Call the Attorney General of Maryland and file a formal complaint. If anyone has any other ideas, or recommendations, please let me know. What you have just read is literally, the abridged version of what happened. I am so upset it is impossible to describe. I had to call my insurance agent, undo all of that. Call my bank, undo all the loan stuff. So much work which was done now was all for a waste, and now I need to start all over, and look for another car. AHHH!!!!!!!

Now this story truly boggles the mind. They just left you at the Porsche dealership after you flew all the way down there to buy the car? I doubt you'll get much satisfaction from the legal system here, but that has got to win the award for the cheesiest used car dealer story I've ever heard. I live relatively colse to their facility, want me to egg their car inventory? Those fellows have had a lot of low priced Porsche's for sale in the past, now I see why.

Ohh, man that is gruesome and the some! I don't know what will come of your contemplated efforts (other than the CC backcharge) unless you have lots of paperwork... The false advertising may fly but not result in anything for you though short of a civil action. I do hope it resolves to your satisfaction.

A couple things...first you should have gotten everything in writing before going there. 2nd..it looks as if the rims are not the right size and the rear tires are too big. Rear main seal is a common problem, so are the MAF sensors...Porsche approved tires are not that big of a deal either, most 19" tires in Carrera sizes are not. the price sounds about right for a car needing those items...You have 2 choices, pay a litte more for a Porsche dealer reconditioned car which will need absolutely nothing or buy private party and expect to do some repairs. Buying from these small sports car boutiques usually ends bad....The cars sometimes are rebuilds or auction cars and there is no guarantee on anything. Sorry about your misfortune and good luck finding a car.

Yes, please egg, key, and urinate/defecate, all over everything......Thanks.

Didn't they invent baseball bats and knee caps for the resolution of such matters?

A word of advice to everyone. There are tons of Rennlisters all over the country. It's worth posting here first to see if one of us will go over and check out the car. Moreover, it could then be arranged to take it over for a PPI before you even lift a finger to book a flight. But the final word is to always buy from an authorized dealer with a CPO or a private party that you really seem to trust (warranty remaining preferred). They are so many stories of used car guys doing so many things like this that it boggles the mind that they are still in business. Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Hey man, not to be a dick, but to be a dick, here it goes. You get what you pay for! Sorry, but don't always go for the cheap ones and if you do don't be offended when you find out it's a dog. Now, calling it a c4 when it's a c2, that's funny!!! What a bunch of crooks. Had you shown the pictures, many could have probably commented on the ride height looking strange. Next, the wheels, yuck......................... Airbag, no kidding. Not just a repaint but probably a major crash. Guess what, you can't trust carfax, no kidding. Next, good luck getting your deposit back, sorry. If they went to the trouble of taking the car off market and then shuttled to the dealer for inspection even though it failed, they will feel entitled to the money. Consider yourself lucky and walk away. We can all flame them here for you and I'm sure everyone will steer clear, thanks for being the lamb. Now cheer up, and go back to that red car we pointed out. Pay a little more money but get something that's not junked. I promise, you will save money in the end. C2 called a C4, I'm still laughing on that one............................... Could you imagine being duped on that level, sheesh.

I am honestily still in shock.....And yeh, that red one up in NH, I would LOVE it, but I just can't afford it. You wanna donate some $$$ to my cause?

Total scumbags, they literally took off when the jig was up. Most of the wear and tear stuff and even the leaks are to be expected. But trying to pass off a C2 as a C4 is beyond belief.

this sucks, man. but i feel u need to be careful in future purchase transaction. 1. never leave deposit. if they ask for it. just say" i will pay $200+ for a PPI regardless, that's a much better commitment than a refundable deposit" 2. never book one way flight, unless you are buying a cpo from porsche dealer. 3. never commit anything until you have EVERYTHING you want on paper, i.e. a formal contract. cheer up, man, last year my Governor said he won't raise tax either.

monabaker, if I go turbo, I'll donate my car to your cause! It's not looking good though as I keep searching 355's. If that's the case, I'll have to keep the 911 as my primary secondary fun car! Good luck and take your time, it will come.

This type of things is the reason people burn down dealerships..or drive cars thru the front window. You are a better man then me, I would have went back to thatr dealership and kick the **** out of someone...

If they advertised it as a C4, file a complaint with your local DMV for "bait and switch." I had an issue with a Stealer a few years back. Got no where with them for awhile. BBB has no teeth so are worthless. As soon as I sent copies of their advertisement to the DMV, it got resolved fairly quickly. I would imagine if you still have proof you could get them in small claims. At some point though, you have to deal with "how much time is it worth to prove they are idiots?" I hope you put the screws to them just for mankind in general!!!!!!!!!

This is very good advice moon. We all love cars here, and there's been many instances of someone on this board who lives close buy checking out a car for a prospective customer. I think 4 of us showed up at HOLT one week when someone out of town was interested in a 993. If you see one you like, post it here first and see if anyone can help. Don't make yourself crazy over the wasted day and expense, I've been to more than a few car visits where it looked WAY different than the pictures. As for the deposit, if you don't get a commitment to get it back by next Monday let me know. I'm going down to Baltimore on Wednesday anyway, so I could stop by and pick it up. Take your time looking, and if you want my advice stick to Private party sales.

$1200 for a MAF???? I'm a Boxster owner, so I guess I can't claim any knowledge, but that seems outrageous. As far as the N rated tires go, Bro

liars, cheats, thieves. Last week I looked at this 2002 911 in Atlanta http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...=en&cardist=13 The owner of AGN (who will tell you several times that he is a doctor and went to MIT). Told me the car was perfect, that he only bought perfect cars, it had never been in an accident and had only one owner. As it turns out, the car needs brakes, the clutch is high, and pulsating, and the engine is idling very rough. And, the car has had 2 owners. I told the owner of AGN that I would buy the car for asking price if it passed a PPI, and he would offer a full refund if the car had ever been in any serious frame bending accidents. For about � hour, he stated he would put those two things in writing�when it came time to buy he said; 1) He would not let the car leave to get a PPI because �driving the car to and from Jim Ellis would put to many miles on the car. 2) He would not sign anything about accidents because if the door was dented, he didn�t want the car back. Jim Ellis is about 3 or 5 miles from AGN�and for the record, �Doctor� I grew up in Boston�when I asked how you liked living at MIT in Quincy on the banks of the Merrimack River�.well, you should have know it was really the �Charles River�, and MIT is in Cambridge.

Was this him? Bro

Wow what a story. Just left you there, unbelievable. Wow. Go figure. With both Porsches I've bought, I've purchased one-way tickets and picked the cars up and it's worked out, but I suppose either of the deals could have gone south. But your story is amazing. But I have to say, with that interior that would make Elvira, Mistress of the Dark vomit, I think you're better off....

You should just rebadge your 996 as "Turbo", sounds like it might increase the resale value.

I wouldn't recommend that......... make it a "Turbo S"

Maybe in my old age I get a lot more cynical than others, but Baltimore is a fairly large city with lots of Porsche prospective buyers. If there's a "killer deal" available, why don't the local guys pick it up? The only time that I would travel a long distance for a car is if the car was the precise car that I had been searching for, i.e., equipped with the options and in the exterior and interior colors that I wanted. Actually a really low price is a turnoff for me.

Insane story!! Couple questions, did you check the VIN# when you first arrived, as the one on the site, is for a 1999 C4. Based on the Carfax report, I wouldn't have touched it. The car has been through 4 owners and to AUCTION twice. I would hit everyone with this story, especially the local TV/newspaper. At the very least, it will make you feel better if you keep someone from having the same problems. Also, it puts the local dealership in a very favorable light, so they might even take part. You might even want to notify Carfax, and see what they say. Also, how could you buy a car from a place that looked like this....You have been dealt a pretty good lesson, that could have cost you a whole lot more, now learn from it! http://pages.princegeorges.com/auto/autoshowcase.htm

Forget about the DMV, call the attorney general's office. they love this type of prosecution in a election year. Go for it. they totaly screw you over. did you ask for a carfax?

undertheradar - I bought my 03 996 from these folks and I was satisfied with the deal and the condition of the car. They almost always have 911's in stock, including 3 turbo's and a 40th at the moment. When I visited on a Saturday and said I couldn't get a PPI until Tuesday, they just had me sign a waiver and gave me the keys. I brought it back Tuesday night with 300+ additional miles on the odometer....and a check in hand. A good dealer will recognize a good buyer and cut you a lot of slack. A crappy dealer will treat you like you're a vagabond.

This story reminds me a bit of my Jaguar eBay adventure... long story short, found a beautiful XK8 cabrio on fleabay, didn't win the auction (reserve) but called and negotiated a price, flew down the following week to get it... then he tells me "oops, I can't sell it to you at that price" and then "well, we don't have the title from Jaguar yet" and so I had him take me back to the airport. Fortunately he did not leave me stranded but he also never reimbursed me for my airfair as promised. Naturally I had not booked round-trip, so I had to pay full fare on the return flights, only about $500. I did get my down-payment back though, so in retrospect, I did much better than some folks. I look at the whole thing as a learning experience, always book the flight as a round trip, and get the contract in writing before you leave. And yes, if you can find a fellow Rennlister to check out the car first, even if it's just a walk-around, it's well worth it. I've done it for others, and I'm sure most guys (and gals) here would be happy to take a lunch hour to look over a car. Michael

I am sure there is an attorney on board who would love to send these people a love letter discussing DTPA - Deceptive Trade Practices Act and the consequences of such actions. That said - dude they did you a HUGE favor on this. Those wheels and that interior are just 10 kinds of wrong. I hate that you got screwed too btw. It shouldn't be that hard to get your deposit back especially if you used an AMEX for it.

Actually, CARFAX was 100% clean. It just showed that it had been through several owners (4) and to auction twice.

Like gravedgr, I also bought my car from Select Luxury in Marietta, Ga. ("these folks" as noted in the quoted post immediately above). It was a good experience and the condition of the car was as good as in person as it appeared in the posted pics.

Is it just me? I have a real problem with cars that are sold at auction. I keep on thinking that if they can't be sold through the normal channels (Private party, New, used car dealer) there must be something wrong with them.

most cars at auction are cars off leases....

Huh? How is that clean. Yes, it does not register any major accidents. However, I would say that a car like this, hitting the auction circuit twice, is anything but clean. Remember, Carfax is not an end all, be all solution. Thank god you had a PPI! Further, the point is that the VIN# on the carfax says its a C4. So, if you checked the VIN# when you first arrived or asked for a photo of the vin, you would have know something was up. I assume you gave the vin# to the insurance agent, and apparently the vin# was wrong. Had you tried to insure the car, the insurance agent would have issues after it failed its insurance inspection given the incorrect vin#. In the end, dealers like this prey on you. It would appear that you have 996C4Aerokititus. How many warning signs does one have to give before you move on.

I agree complain to the attorney generals at least you can get there dealership on there radar. Good Luck

Yeh, I called the Attorney General and they said to write a letter, and they would get me my money back for the deposit and the flights, plus, look into their licence being pulled. I also called the local Fox News channel and told them all about it....They seem interested in doing something too.

mona -- What a terrible experience, sorry that happened to you. Two points to add to the ones above... 1. You ended up saving money. Some of us can get so amped up to buy a specific car that we do things we wouldn't do if we were thinking logically (I won't touch on how this applies to women). Be glad you didn't buy the car without going there, and learning all of this once it got unloaded at your front door. Then, you would have been out way more than the price of the plane ticket, PPI and desposit. 2. Re-consider this purchase. If you cannot comfortably afford to buy the 996 you want in superior condition, you should postpone this purchase or set your sights on something lower priced (perhaps a solid 996, then do the Aero mods when you are able). Anyone here can tell you that these cars, as reliable as they are vs. other sports cars, are no bargain to maintain. Just my $0.02. Wish you well.. -- M

What's their phone number? Do they have an 800 number?

Yeh.... Call Toll Free [phone removed] Why? What are you going to do?

I know the owner of the place...he's generally pretty nice guy but that is f'd up what he did. BTW, all car dealerships in the city of Baltimore sell **** cars. To the O.P. I asked you previously about the name of the car dealer.....you never told me. All used car salesman are pieces of garbage.

It could be an expensive mistake for them if Rennlisters decide to call the 877 number and let them know that what they did to you was BS.

just called.

Well.. as lame as the dealer is, I don't think calling the number is going to help the poster resolve this. No doubt you should get your deposit back. Best of luck with the airfare though.

undertheradar wrote: I called AGN and got the same run around how he only buys perfect cars, his doctorate degree and all his qualifications. The 2002 sounded decent and when I asked if he would pick me up at the airport he flat said NO!. He told me this was his hobby and he didn't have time to play games. What a jerk! I wouldn't buy a car from him on a bet.

Lack of cooperation in getting PPI is the first sign of smelly issue. Airbag and repaint is the second sign to walk away. Sometimes listening to your dad is best. Should have just walked away and not deal with these guys. You probly would have saved your time to have had PPI done before flying down. You just can't trust anyone. At least the Porsche dealer was honest and didn't mess with you. GL in getting the money back. It's good to file complaints but move out to another 996. There are plenty of nice ones out there.

Who called, what did they say? I called the Maryland Attorney General & the local Fox News affiliate.

I won't go so far as to say all used car guys are garbage, but the ones who sell in the inner cities tend to have awful cars. They're hoping to catch someone's eye in town on a "deal" on a car they bought at an auction cheap.

That interior does look like Santa's workshop By the way I've written and phoned them to tell them what a huge mistake they've made, and how no one here will ever buy a car from them ( not that they we're ever getting our business anyway). You can definately do better than that car, barf colored seats would be an improvement.

I think its funny how everyone is bashing the interior. I thought it was pretty ugly, but it would have worked for the money had the car been whole..........After seeing it in person, it wasn't as terrible as I thought. Still ugly yes, but not as ugly as the whole dealerships morals.

... or trades. If you trade a hi line car at a dealer that does not deal in that market, they will send it to auction. Auctions are very efficient ways for dealers to monetize trades, does not mean at all a car is a dog. Now, if a P car dealer sends a P car to auction, diff story.

I just went through this with a motorcycle recently (2004 Ducati 998 Matrix). Same sort of scenario. The dealer made all sorts of promises. Drove 12 hours to pick it up. Got there and they had it all pulled apart because it wasn't even running. That was just one of the many problems with it (list is too long, but the dealer flat out lied about the bike). I ended up walking on the deal. Put my tail between my legs and drove the 12 hours home. It stung every time I had to put $50 worth of fuel in the truck. To make a long story short, the whole thing finally hit me when I got home. And I was pissed! After 8 million arguments on the phone, I eventually got a personal check from the salesman to compensate me for my gas. Good thing I saved the receipts. On a seperate note: Hi. Mr. Blessing. Saw you in this thread. Heard you banned someone else from Speed Brigade. Guess there's two of us that are locked out now.... Who's next on your hit list? Careful with the bans, you don't have that many members. It won't be much fun with just you and Britt talking about cameras and floor mats

Whoever it was that suggested going to the Attorney General's Office may be correct. In California they have the Consumer Law Section which is set up to take consumer fraud complaints. Your should be prepared to furnish them with as much evidence as possible in the way of back and forth emails, faxes, or anything written you can dig up. I would also write a SHORT but very concise summary of what happened...I say SHORT because long winded multi-paged ramblings will turn off someone who's reviewing the case for the first time. Call them first and try to get to a Deputy Attorney General from Consumer Law. They may require you to provide something in writing first...which takes you back to your well written summary supported by any written evidence you have. You might also send a cc of the summary to the DMV. They also have investigators. Hopefully one of the two agencies will take an interest in your case. Good Luck. Chuck

I spoke with the owner yesterday and checked out the vehicle in question. The story I am getting, keep in mind I know this guy, is that the OP was well aware that this car was a C2 before he flew in from Boston, even though it's badged as a C4. The car is a BASE-BASE-BASE MY 1999 with 55k miles. The previous owner added the body kit, painted the brake calipers, added chrome wheels, and did other aesthetic things to the car. For a 1999 Black car I thought it looked pretty nice. It does have an RMS issue but it seems thats about it, other than wear & tear items. The story I got was that the O.P. had been calling every day for two weeks about this car......and the dealer put alot of time/energy into the deal. According to the story, when the OP was not satisfied with the result of the PPI he "demanded" $7k off the agreed upon price. Dealer was willing to deduct price of RMS repair, even $2,000 to do the deal. Again, according to what I am told, this was not acceptable to OP who demanded that he be reimbursed his $500.00 deposit (which was paid by credit card) in cash. I understand the frustration of being out of town and having your "hands tied" in a situation like this, but if you add fuel to the fire it makes matters worse. To the OP, sorry that you had a bad experience but a "used" car will never be perfect, especially at "city" dealerships. My $0.02

That's not even close to how it happened. Sorry, but your friend lied to you, and I have about 6 witnesses from Len Stoler Porsche that will agree with me one this one. I never asked him to take off any amount off of the car. I said that if I was to buy it, he would need to fix these issues, and then we would need to renegotiate the price of a C2, because never once, did he say it was a C4, nor did the salesman, or sales manager. Also, why lie on his website and claim it as a C4? Why tell me on the phone it was a C4? Why make me a verbal promise of a perfect PPI and offer me the money to pay for my plane ticket home if it did not pass? Why has my deposit not been refunded yet? Why did his lackies abandon me at Len Stoler Porsche? THEY FLAT OUT TOOK THE CAR AND LEFT WITHOUT EVEN TELLING ME!!!!!! Why did the sales manager Mike tell the Porsche Tech "Make sure this car passes." Afterwards, why did Mike say to me, "How much do you want to pay for it now then?" He never offered to take $2000 off the price, and even if he did, that wouldn't have been enough. He asked me for my credit card number so that he could refund my deposit, but there is just no way in hell I can give that info to a guy as untrusthworthy as this. I told him that he could write me a check, give me the cash, or lookup my info from when I made the original deposit with my credit card and then refund it. He did none of those, and hung up on me. When I asked Dave where the salesmanager and salesman went, his responce was "uh.....I don't know. Do you want the car or not?" Because Dave, and all of his little minions at that dealership are liars, and he, is a cheat, and a scam. He's in it to make a fast buck off of stupid people. He doesen't deserve to have a licence to sell cars, and I have already filed a complaint with the RMV in Maryland, and the Attorney General's office and alerted the local TV news stations, newspapers, and the local police department, which I spoke with in person that day at Len Stoler. Dave is a complete *******, who actually yelled at me on the phone, and then hung up on me. At no time did I ever swear, was I disrespectful, or did I even raise my voice to him. How is this man even in business when he treats his potential coustmers like this? I literally had the money in hand to buy the car, and this is how I was treated.... Lied to numerous times and abandoned 450 miles away from home. With my deposit stolen. Oh yeh, after paying $225 for a PPI, and $500 for plane tickets. Oh, and by the way, I have the printout from the PPI from Len Stoler with a whole slew of stuff that's wrong with this car. Not to mention their receptionist, senior tech, and service manager, all were witnesses to this whole dealing.

The fact that these guys still list the car as a C4 on their website when they admit that it is a C2 is enough to discount anything these guys might claim to have happened with this deal.

THANKYOU!!! And if that wasn't enough, I provided about 25 other reasons. I can't believe anyone would even attempt to try and defend them at this point. They were so in the wrong I am at a loss for words.

All things aside.....regardless of who is telling the "correct" version of the story. The part that just gets me is that they LEFT YOU STRANDED!!!!!!!

Hey, moonbaker, I would have gone back to that dealership and gone medieval on someone! You are surely a more restrained person than I. Left you at the dealership, that is classic! It's making me mad just thinking about it happening to you! To avoid this happening to anyone else, save yourself the airfair, I'd be more than happy to take a look at any car (P-car or not) for a fellow rennlister if it's local to me (south SF Bay Area). I'm not a car expert but I have a decent digital camera and I'm thorough. I've done it once before and it was fun! :-)

No kidding. I would have taken a cab back to the dealership and "worked things out" until the issue was resolved or I was removed from the property.

Bunch of a**holes living up to the stigma of sleazy used car salesmen. I still can't believe the scam they attempted to pull and their subsequent attitude. That just blows my mind. Monabaker, my brother's '99 C2 is still for sale. It isn't equipped with an aerokit, but it's not re-badged as a C4, nor has it been wrecked before, and he certainly wouldn't leave you stranded anywhere. I've sent you the pics prior, so let me know. Good luck in your continued search.

Well, believe me, I thought about going back to the dealer with the police, or just in a cab. But, that could have ended in a not so pleasant situation.... For example....I go back there, And say perhaps, the conversation turns to a not so nice tone, or yelling, or whatever, insulting.....He could easily call the police, and say, "hey, this guy is harassing me, get him off of my lot." At which point it would be a game of he said/she said, with the police. I just wasn't looking for the negitivity.

Monabaker, you have the right attitude and it's awfully disappointing that this experience happened to you. Call your credit card company and dispute the charge. Even if you have gotten a statement, they can process it retroactively for you. As for your next car, don't let one scumbag salesman ruin your experience. Just be patient and the right car will 'find' you.

This forum is a great resource. I'm am a newbie Porsche owner, having just purchase a 2001 C2 Cab in mint condition, with 13,133 miles on it. I paid full retail at $51,800, but the car was virtually new, or so it seemed. The dealer suspected that there were some issues with the alternator, so I told him that I would expect no deficiencies at that price. We took it to Bert Smith Porsche, in St. Pete, FL, for a PPI. What a waste! They said it was a battery problem, so the dealer paid for a new battery. Later that week, I noticed that when I was in the slightest bit of traffic, the voltmeter would hover around 11 volts. The check engine light also went on. I took it back to Bert Smith, and they said the fault code was for a fuel system charcoal cannister issue, but the alternator was fine. Last week, after a fine meal, I turned on the ignition, and nothing! This was a Sunday night, and I was livid! I called Joe Kase, owner of Genuine Motor Cars in St Pete, where I got the car from, and went ballisitic. He told me to calm down, and that none of this would cost me a penny. True to his word, he led me to a great mechanic from Germany with his own shop, got me a new alternator, a new charcoal cannister, fixed a few other minor things, and the car is running like new! Joe had no legal obligation to me, and I appreciate the presence of an ethical used car dealer, who wants his customers to be happy.

Moonbaker- The guy is not my "friend" but I do know him. As a criminal defense attorney I have become keen at detecting lies and one thing I do know is that the truth as always somewhere in the middle of the two stories. Not because someone is neccesarily lying, but because everyone perceives things differently. Three points that "my guy" made: 1. The seller originally thought the car was a C4, as that is how it is badged. You pulled the carfax and realized it was a C2 before you came to Baltimore....so Dave says. 2. Note that "passing inspection" is different than the Porsche "pre-purchase inspection". A PPI looks for every possible "issue" with the car....ie- brakes are "half worn". A State Inspection concerns the "roadworthiness" of the vehicle (ie-is it safe to drive on the road). Obviously there is a huge gap between the two. 3. Leaving you stranded was wrong, but no used car dealer is going to put NEW tires, brakes, shocks, etc. on a car without charging you a premium. Appearently you wanted all of that, plus a discount on the price...... Finally, be happy you didn't get the car.....it's probably a POS. Anyone that would put those ugly rims and rebadge the thing incorrerctly does not know how to properly drive/care for the car. It's probably ragged out IMHO.

Sorry, but how did the dealer buy the car and not know it was a C2?

The carfax states Carrera 2 / Carrera 4 911 Coupe. I'll e-mail it to you, and you can set it on fire, and jam it in your mouth. He never told me, they posted as a C4 on their website for christ sake. DAVE LIED, the sales manager lied, the salesman lied, their website lied.......stop making claims, you weren't there. I would have known but I wasn't allowed to drive the car......Especially since it had been badged a C4. Shut up.

Dude, then you tell him that you aren't selling him the car and you stand by your company. You don't leave a customer stranded because things didn't work out in your best interest. If I was monabaker, I'd go nuts.

I'm sick of even talking about this now. I have filed every complaint imaginable already.

This is probably a good time for a closed thread. monabaker, if you so desire, go to the link at the top "thread tools" and select close thread if you want the pain to end.

Ok, point number one. If monbaker pulled the carfax and discovered it was a c2, SURELY the dealer who purchased the car did the same thing when he bought it?? If he did, and then still listed it for sale as a c4, he commited fraud. Point number 3, leaving him stranded when he knew the guy flew in from out of state is SO wrong that the word wrong doesn't do it justice. let's try inexscusable with a couple of expletives thrown in beforehand as adjectives! Based on this, even if some of what he's saying is true ( which I doubt), as a defense lawyer you must realize that he has lost all credibility with the audience. Mon, I hope the attorney general makes his life miserable and he gets his liscense suspended, people like this don't belong in business.

Write the letter and do the deal.

The last Carfax I ran on a 996 came up showing C2/C4. It appears tht Carfax can't sort the model out. However, one would certainly hope a dealer would know.

That's why I had no idea.

Carfax is far from perfect and does not differentiate models very well. My car comes up as Carrera 2/ Carrera 4s; so you really don't know until you see the car. Monabaker, what that dealer did was unexcusable on so many levels. Hopefully you will receive some compensation/satisfaction and they will lose significantly more business from this than they could earned if they had treated you fairly. good luck!

Just so it's clear. This is about "Auto Showcase Motorcars, in Baltimore Maryland. They are located at 4010 West Northern Parkway, Baltimore, MD. 21215." Adding my name to the chorus. BUYER BEWARE. STAY AWAY!!!

Yes, that is correct!!! Thankyou!

Just curious, but had he fixed the rms and the other leaks, what would you have paid for the car?

man, just put it down to experience and save yourself the ulcer. You sound like a cheap *** getting getting the guy to pay for your flight back if you did not buy it anyway. The guy was nuts to agree to that, so he is a bit of a *** end, but I sort of can see why he disappered when you were not going to buy it

That's a pretty naive view of the auto world. There are a million situations where a perfectly good P-car could end up at an auction. The most likely scenario is that it gets traded in on a car that isn't a Porsche at a regular dealer, and gets sent to the auction to a more "specialty" dealership. Another situation, is Porsche credit will run all of the lease returns through dealer auction.

The car I wound up with was an off-lease, 4-year old Cab that went to auction, then to a high-end used car dealer in the Dallas area. I found it on autotrader.com. No part of this path to Porsche ownership, if one goes by traditional internet wisdom, bodes well for success. My car turned out to be low mileage ( less than 32K), optioned heavily (18" wheels, chrome package, full leather, etc), and in pristine condition. I have had no mechanical problems in the subsequent 15 months & 18K miles. The CEL has never come on. It all comes down to the individual car, and with cars .... as with people .... generalizations are tricky business.

I have to say I did the same with a 5 year off lease Porsche 996 C2 bought by a New York high end auto broker and put up on his website. The vehicle only had 19K miles on it, also had the chromed 18" turbo wheels, absolutely pristeen interior with the exterior a stunning Iris Blue. No chips, dings, or The vehicle is everything I would have wanted, plus the broker paid the shipping, changed all the fluids (brake flush, coolant flush, oil, trans etc), put brand new Dunlops on it and also took care of some minor issues I noticed when it came off the transport vehicle. After reading all the horror stories I consider myself very fortunate indeed. Since then, I've had Alex and James from Sharkwerks do the mods, (which is another GREAT couple of guys and great professional installations) and from now on I just plan on driving and enjoying it. So there are good deals out there....but you have to do your homework and stick with the people who have a good reputation bolstered by happy customers who have left kudos for the broker. I'm really sorry yours turned out so badly for you....but not everyone out there is out to stick it to you. There are honorable dealers and it's unfair to paint all dealers with a generalized negative brush stroke. Chuck

Are you really that stupid? Do you have any idea how things are in the real world? Let's talk about how he bought a lemon, and tried to sell it for 10k more than it's worth, after lying about what it is in the first place, plus all the busted stuff.....You really need to think before you speak.

Like i say, forget about it. Think yourself lucky you did not get caught.

Here is a quote I found on a BMW site I frequent. Just another case of someone that treats a leased car as a rental. While some may get lucky with an off lease vehicle, I view it as buying a car from Hertz <snip> Quote: Originally Posted by fletcher969 I'm not directing my comments at you directly...but I believe it's both morally and ethically more sound to care for anything in your possession as if it was your own, and you planned on keeping it as long as possible. I'm always miffed when I see and/or hear of people who treat something different when they know it will be passed on to another person at some point or another...some even laughing it off how some "schmuck" will inherit their mess. Treat it like your own, and when and if somebody else inherits it, they won't be bothered by another's irresponsible outlook on "pride of ownership." Possession is a form of ownership...one should take pride in that. Just my .02 worth... Fletch! I suppose you wash and wax your rental cars as well? I think there is a difference between not mistreating something, and spending a lot of money doing optional preventive maintenance on a car you are only going to have for a couple years. A good example of this is with oil changes. If I owned my car, I would probably change the oil at least every 5,000 miles just to give myself extra peace of mind. However, since my car is leased, I am only going to change the oil every 15,000 miles. I am not mistreating the car, but I am not wasting my own money doing things to increase the life of a car I am only going to have for a couple years. <snip>

Alan C wrote; "I called AGN and got the same run around how he only buys perfect cars, his doctorate degree and all his qualifications. The 2002 sounded decent and when I asked if he would pick me up at the airport he flat said NO!. He told me this was his hobby and he didn't have time to play games. What a jerk! I wouldn't buy a car from him on a bet." Not sure this 02 is a great deal...the engine was shacking badly at idle. My 99 996 with 80k on it did not shake like that - maybe the 3.6 is different? And the pulsating clutch was playing very, very high...the inside had the usual knicks and cuts, and I could find no leaks under the car...The "doctor" really scared me away - the more he talked, the more silly he sounded - if he only buys the best cars, and I was willing to leave full asking price on condition the car passed a PPI, why wouldn't he take me up on that offer? "the Doctor" carsalesman tried to insult me into buying the car several times. He said, "You can't afford this car" and "you don't understand what it takes to own a car like this". Odd technique, might work if I was buying a bottle of wine~ I called the bank for a automated balance check, he got quite after that.

Unfortunately you get what you pay for with 996's. If the price is low, it's for a reason. Better off forgetting about this experience and finding a nice one on a p dealers lot, cpo or not, better yet a pvt sale from a rennlister.

What card did you use for the deposit? If it's a VISA or MASTERCARD then getting your $500 back is trivial. You don't mention a contract, but even if there was one, credit card companies really don't care.. if you ask for a chargeback you get it.. I know this from being on the merchant side. Credit card companies want to see a signed FedEx or UPS slip that prove that you have taken delivery of something to block a chargeback.. even though in this case that is totally irrelevant. If you used an AMEX card then they have more of an option to fight their case, but still - without shipping confirmation it's tough. Advice: Apply for a chargeback and keep the details really vague, e.g. "Service not received". If it's a Visa or Mastercard you'll have your money before the shop even knows that it's taken from them. Keith

Supposedly, he claimed that he refunded my card, but it's been two days since then, and I haven't seen it on my online statement yet......Normally that stuff shows up in minutes.

Charges show up in minutes, credits don't. When you charge a card an authorization hits the card instantly to make sure there is money - that is what you see instantly. With a credit they save the processing power because it's unnecessary. Refunds / credits can take a few days and depends on his processor and your bank.. but this is all good news. If he is BSing you again, "vendor promised refund but not received" is an ironclad chargeback reason, and you don't even have to lie ;-) Credit card companies don't care who is right and wrong, they just want to move on - and they charge the vendors at both ends for chargebacks. Give it a few more days and you don't see the money go straight to chargeback. Keith

Keith, thanks for the info, it all makes good sense.

Auto auctions- it is std practice for dealers to run trades thru the auctions to monetize and rebalance inventory. Most non-specialty dealers are not going to put a P car on the lot if they sell SUVs to soccer moms,etc. A car that has been thru auction means nothing taken by itself. Off lease- I lease a Jeep Cherokee to keep miles off my M5 and P car. I am not abusing it but not changing the oil every 3k either...I take it in when the service lite comes on. In my mind a simple way to buy an off lease P car with peace of mind is only to buy with up to date service records. Plus, what makes anyone think the same kind of douchebag who has one last joy ride in a leased car woudlnt do it to one he's trading in? Theres only so much you can do, then you have to go with your gut....and checkbook