37 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHIMS/RMS
Reported or suspected cause
no one knows
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
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Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
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0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Leading evidence: 'no one knows' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'no one knows' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Recommend aftermarket warranty specifically' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Reported cause
Neither problem is a reason not to buy a 996, to drive the one you own carefully, or to panic and sell it.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Disgruntled 996 owners who contact PCNA for assistance with blown engines are told to get lost but others without even having knowledge of their impending IMS problems are secretly having their engines replaced by dealerships.
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I've heard of engines going in for service and an IMS problem being found and the Dealer swapped the engine without even telling the customer.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The difference is the fact that 4 cam Carrera engines and aircooled 911s used plain bearings to support their versions of an IMS.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Disgruntled 996 owners who contact PCNA for assistance with blown engines are told to get lost but others without even having knowledge of their impending IMS problems are secretly having their engines replaced by dealerships.
Replace ims bearing it was about a $ 1200 service/parts
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
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Unsuccessful attempts
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Suggestion
To replace the IMS bearing it was about a $ 1200 service/parts to break down the engine and install the LN Engineering upgrade, which I decided against and sold the car.
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Suggestion
The story that your are putting along 30 mph and "bang" engine failure seems hard to believe considering there are thousands of these cars on the road and Porche has consistently use the IMS for decades.
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37 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Outcome without a verified action link
to early Boxsters were porous blocks and slipped sleeves, in addition to which they had more than their share of rear main seal failures (some of which ended up as engine replacements because of errors made with a Porsche diagnostic tool, and this didn't help the rumour mill, either).
The RMS will leak whenever it decides.
The IMS can have its bearing seal removed, or have the ln retrofit bearing installed.
Or you can do nothing and be part of the majority that never had a problem.....yet.
You can nominate all you want hoping for fireworks but it ain't gonna happen. I really don't care to argue stats, etc, anymore. I figured out very quickly people will either be scared into thinking these cars are ticking time bombs or they will stop worrying and drive the damn car and enjoy it like I do.
After listening to all of this for the past six months, and buying a 2002 996 with a leaking RMS that I immediately had repaired, to me all of this seems to boil down to two simple truths...
RMS - They tend to leak due to poor design. The problem is not catastrophic. The fix is not that expensive (if you can't spend $1-2k to fix your late model Porsche you probably should not own one).
IMS - Much less of a potential problem statistically, but catastrophic and frighteningly expensive to repair. Also a result of poor design. The problem seems to occur in sufficient numbers for owners to be aware of the problem and the warning sounds. It is also a good idea to carry a warranty on the car for as long as you can.
Neither problem is a reason not to buy a 996, to drive the one you own carefully, or to panic and sell it.
But... these are complex cars that are expensive to fix. Hiding heads in the sand or minimizing potential problems does no one any good.
There. The FAQ has begun.
Mine has 76K,I can afford it but would rather pay to fix a IMS now vs go thru what the recent guy with the C4S post did and $12,000.
Cost of IMS prevent ?
Thank you.
My RMS does not leak.
echo that...
maybe to counter all the negative Jake could point out the better quality's of our motors.
I'm sure without the many redeeming quality's to them "we" Jake included would not be pouring so much time (and money) into them.
Me, love the torque, the sound, even with the stock set up just love the way they sound and feel when they come up on cam.
dig that with practice the heel toe and maybe a double clutch and you get it right, so makes me smile. the whole package is just so sweet...
and the distinctive headlights....
and any car is a ticking time bomb, been through more then one motor in my time.
let us just enjoy our cars folks....
Let me be one of the first to thank you in advance for your efforts. For would be purchasers like me, this info will be very helpful. Hoping you can address when the 997/987 received the final version of the IMS/IMS bearing and which cars can be retrofitted with your bearing (I thought remember reading somewhere that the later cars cannot be retrofitted w/o a complete teardown).
Cheers,
Joe
Yep! I drive the car so the bearings get a work out
Here's part of my view. The car sits? The bearing if leaking set the ball bearings up to take a dry spin on start and have a mark which is the beginning of their downfalls. Whatevers.
You make me feel like I'm not the only one getting tired of IMS this and RMS that. AGGHHHH!!!!!! Exxon Valdez or what
Excellent point, best explaination yet.
The sealed bearings grease over time gets washed out with engine oil. When the engine sits for prolonged periods the oil the worked its way into the bearing runs out. The oil that ran out needs running engine time to get replenished. This period is probably when the bearing is most likely to fail.
Anyone else want to chime in on this theory?
My understanding is the bearings are all sealed from factory. Double row bearings initially and later single row bearings. If the car sit's for a while corrosion, etc "could" damage the bearing and cause the grease to exit the bearing. Dry bearings and you have a big problem. This appears to be the redesign of LN bearings since they are not sealed and are lubricated by the engine oil not the sealed grease in the original bearing. Another theory could be that you run the car at constant high temperatures and the seal in the bearing wears and the grease escapes causing again a dry bearing. Does clean oil at 5000 miles intervals decrease the breakdown of the bearing seal. Who knows....while postulating contributing theories I am guessing a little user abuse and long service interval don's help the bearings shelf life. If we all examined our engines and found bone dry engines at the engine-transmission junction would we be better off? I have often asked myself if the folks that have engine failures examined their engines to see how dry they were prior to the failures. The story that your are putting along 30 mph and "bang" engine failure seems hard to believe considering there are thousands of these cars on the road and Porche has consistently use the IMS for decades. Like Jake said these are only �wild *** guesses�.
Porsche has used an IMS since the 4 Cam Carrera engine, in the day it was called a "layshaft". The same design is found in the 911 starting from day one, with the same function as the modern day IMS.
The difference is the fact that 4 cam Carrera engines and aircooled 911s used plain bearings to support their versions of an IMS. These plain bearings are inserts that receive lubrication from the engine's oil.
The IMS used in the M96 uses a roller bearing that is sealed from the engine's lubrication.
Until Porsche applied this roller bearing and sealed it up failures like are being seen today never existed, even with poor maintenance.
The future will hold some radically new parts for the M96 with a throwback to yesterday in their design, but it won't be coming from Porsche.
I have many, many different ideas about what impacts the IMS bearing failure, but I dare not mention them in public...
Called the local dealer,they said IMS not a issue except on a couple early Boxsters and not to worrry. No preventitive maintence procedures. So no problem ? !
That is sort of stunning. I bought my car independently, but know the guys at the local dealer including sales manager and service advisor. They all recommended an aftermarket warranty specifically because of IMS/RMS!
I haven't seen an aftermarket warranty worth it's cost yet. I hate dealing with them and no longer honor them, too many hassles and tired of being stiffed!
That dealer should be ashamed. Besides not knowing their asses from a hole in the ground, they seem to have fallen prey to the habit of lumping all M96 engine problems over a decade and a half of development into one bucket, which is partly why there is so much hysteria.
AFAIK, the only major problems
specific
to early Boxsters were porous blocks and slipped sleeves, in addition to which they had more than their share of rear main seal failures (some of which ended up as engine replacements because of errors made with a Porsche diagnostic tool, and this didn't help the rumour mill, either).
I wouldn't let these guys touch my car, if I were you. Sorry to be so blunt, but the misinformation on this stuff is galling sometimes...
I've spoken to a dealer also, both directly with a tech/parts guy + a service advisor who said they'd seen two failures in the last 6 years or so. The advisor told me I could get a warranty if I was concerned with the durability of the engine to put my mind at ease, but he also said that he believes likely worst case it would come in handy for the air oil separator...
I instruct for the PCA amongst others, and I'm personally on my second 996. I have several friends with 996s and Boxsters that are regularly tracked and/or daily drivers. I've seen an RMS, an air oil separator a window regulator, a door latch and a seat belt buckle. That is out 6 cars I know personally, and over a dozen I've come in contact with and see regularly. I may be forgetting something small, but that's the extent I've seen. I have to imagine this issue is getting a bit blown out of proportion. I find even 10% VERY hard to believe. My last 996 (a 1999) was THE most reliable car I've ever owned, and needed absolutely nothing over the course of almost 40k miles. Just sharing another data point...
The whole problem is no one knows...
I've heard of engines going in for service and an IMS problem being found and the Dealer swapped the engine without even telling the customer. Thats fairly bazaar and hard to believe, but I know two people that had it happen to them after their cars were out of warranty..
I wonder whop paid the bill? Porsche
A broken record, but............Porsche would not pay for the bearing upgrade on my 2003 C4S, but they paid for the labor and for the IMS/RMS seals and new IMS flange/bolt assembly three times after it occurred at 60K miles on the car - one time out of warranty.
To replace the IMS bearing it was about a $ 1200 service/parts to break down the engine and install the LN Engineering upgrade, which I decided against and sold the car. I figured Porsche would only pay out of warranty once and I had low confidence in the car's reliability at that point relative to this issue. Once you lose confidence in reliabilty in a car, that is it..........for me......and I have been pretty tolerant, i.e happened to me 3 times.........too many....
The IMS leaked on me 3 times in 22K miles after 60K miles on the car and the design with the weak OEM bearing caused the seal leaking issues/tears according to dealer techs, etc.
As mentioned, Porsche paid all the costs once out of warranty and acknowledged the design challenge. (Guess that is why new base 997.2 engine does not have IMS design, eliminated, after 10 years of having fingers crossed that incidence of this ocurrence would not be too high and Porschephiles would be flexible in accepting the issue.....)
In Germany, my friends tell me, the engines were swapped out very readily........closer to the home base I guess.......
In the end, my service tech/s advised me to sell the car, especially since once a car has this issue, it seems to be a repeat problem, if bearing is not upgraded in their experience - this is feedback from large or experienced dealers - Champion - FL, J. Ellis and Hennessey - GA, Tischer- MD and Newport Beach dealer service contacts. A pretty broad sampling across the country in my questioning and informal survey of the issue albiet not scientific, but don't expect Porsche to publish the numbers of failure on this............
I asked them all the percentage of cars with the leaking issue related to the IMS/RMS and the average response was about 3 in 10 cars with 1-3 owners dealing with the issue, others not fixing. Some people will live with the leaks.........therefore people think the issue is not a major one.......basically under reported......
Porsche NA warranty advisor did not disagree or agree with the statistics...............speaks volumes for doing a PPI on any car but especially a 996..........IMHO......
Come on Jake...I have to call BS on this one. Do you really believe this? P dealers swapping customers engines without their knowledge, even out of warranty. Why? Perhaps the secret agent government officials that contacted you were onto these dealerships and they got rid of these engines to destroy evidence. LOL Your stories keep getting better and better.
Let me get this straight. Disgruntled 996 owners who contact PCNA for assistance with blown engines are told to get lost but others without even having knowledge of their impending IMS problems are secretly having their engines replaced by dealerships. Am I missing something?
Maybe Santa Clause paid the bill. Did these mysterious engine swaps occur on Christmas Eve? If my IMS does go, I hope it grenades on Dec. 24th.
In contrast to that dealer, I was selling MY 2000 996 with 68k miles. A perspective buyer called one of the local Porsche dealers in Atlanta to schedule a PPI. They told him the M96 engines were likely to tank anytime starting around 75k miles. They then offered him a deal on a CPO for about double the money. Suffice it to say that buyer was effectively scared off and ended up buying an M3. I sold my car a couple of weeks later so I wasn't really harmed by the stealer.
I've had two Boxsters, and one 996 and never had en engine problem with any of them, but my Boxster is at Jake Raby's getting the high performance 3.6 upgrade. Not because I was afraid of the motor, I just wanted more umph. Can't wait to post the results!
I gleaned around $2K but it makes the most sense if you also change the clutch with only parts cost. I have not seen any cost number or man hour estimate on top of a clutch job yet.
:QUOTE=Steve2112;7230603]I was watching TMZ the other night, and some star (I forgot who) had a huge oil puddle under his 997 - what a bummer.[/QUOTE]
Marky Mark W.
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