'03 C4S Pre-purchase TOMORROW - help please

Hi all, So, after much deliberation, decided to purchase a VERY low km 2003 C4S. It is going to the shop tomorow for a pre-purchase inspection. Are there any specific areas they should look at / problems to look for? I've been reading about IMS / RMS issues (not sure what they stand for - Imminent Motor Seizure and Ruined Motor Syndrome???). Anyway, I got screwed on an Audi Coupe quattro years ago by trusting a respected Audi dealership - just want to make sure they do more than kick the tires and turn on and off the radio. Any suggestions are more than welcome. I am in Toronto BTW. Also, looking at aftermarket warranty -most will cover up to $5000 / repair - won't replace the motor, but it's a little bit of a help I guess.

If I were to buy one without a CPO, then I would not buy an aftermarket warranty. Take that money and replace the clutch and do the LN engineering IMS upgrade for less than what the warranty would cost. In hindsight, I may have even done that instead of searching for a CPO car.

IF you get some after market warranty, get one that says what is NOT covered as opposed to one that says what IS also spend a couple hundred and get a PPI done at a shop that know how to inspect Porsche's Money WELL SPENT! or kick the tires, pull your hair out and stop sleeping for 9 months

Thanks! That's what the delaer we got it from suggested as well. "If something breaks on this car, it's usually the drivers fault" There is a local company here that offers a very comprehensive 3yr bumper-bumper warranty - up to $5000/repair with a $500 deductible. They apparently have a good reputation (A-protect)?? Cost of warranty about $2000 (Canadian dollars BTW).

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+1

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In many respects a Porsche is just a used car and many of the things one should and must look at when checking out a used car apply to a Porsche. A good used car check out will find many things, if they're present. As for specifics: RMS is rear main seal. This shows up as oil leak (maybe just a stain and not any drips on ground even) where the transmission and engine join. (Oh, since this a 996 the RMS is at the "front" of the engine.) To fix is a tranny out job. IMS is intermediate shaft and refers to the bearing that supports this shaft at the end (back of the engine) that receives the chain drive from the crankshaft. The IMS in turn spins the exhaust cams which drive the intake cams by chain as well. Not much you can do about IMS inspection. The engine goes from good to bad in just moments once the bearing starts to go. Shop should check for any signs of poor accident repair, body or paint work. If any found walk away. Tires should be N rated and the same make/type front and rear. They can be worn but evenly. If tires not right or worn factor in new tires and an alignment into your offer. Shop should hook up Porsche diagnostics computer and pull out over revs counts. Generally a prospective buyer will post these numbers and receive advise as to what the numbers mean. At same time shop should query engine controller to see if the CEL on. (The shop should also turn on the key and ensure the check engine light and in fact all warning lights come on then go off after a moment or at least after the engine starts. Sometimes the CEL bulb or other warning bulbs burned out or even removed...) If CEL not on, then there are several possibilities: It may not have ever been on or was on and cleared. It may have been cleared shortly after car delivered to dealer as part of its pre-sale prep or it may have been cleared just before you arrived to take the car to have it PPI'd. In the case of the possibility the CEL was just turned off the engine controller should be queried for some info that relates to this. To query for this info requires access to a Porsche diagnostics computer. The same one that can obtain the overrev numbers. The info is: Distance Traveled While MIL Is Activated. 0 to 65535km. Reset to 0 if diagnostics info cleared or 40 warmup cycles without MIL activated. Number Of Warmup Cycles Since Diagnostics Error Dodes Cleared. 0 to 255. If 255 count freezes. Distance Traveled Since Diagnostics Trouble Codes Cleared: 0 to 65535km. Also, and this is important, now the above info may have been reset when a battery was disconnected. Or it may have been reset on purpose to mask a possible problem with the car or engine. Which? Who knows? Now if the above info indicates the CEL has not been cleared in a long time, if the number of warmup cycles is high or even at 255 (it does not wrap to 0 but stops at 255) this is a pretty good indication the CEL has not been cleared in a long time. OTOH, if it is a low number...somebody may be trying to hide something...If the CEL has been cleared recently a pretty good test drive wants to be performed to give the engine controller time to recognize any problems, including misfires. Why? Cause misfires present suggests the engine is not firing evenly on all cylinders and while the probelm may be a bad coil, it could be something more serious like a bad valve or weak cylinder. Regardless the car should probably be rejected. If shop can do it, have car checked to see if it complies with emissions requirements in your area. Coolant should be free of any signs of oil contamination and oil should be free of any signs of coolant but this requires the oil be analyzed. A "cheap" test is to drain the oil and examine it but if coolant contamination not yet severe the oil could look just fine. Unlikely shop will do this, or even just look at filter housing oil. Remove oil tube filler cap and check for signs of any moisture under cap. A bit moisture sign -- coffee colored gunk -- under cap is normal. But any more than a bit is not and could be a sign the engine's developed coolant and oil intermix problems. Run away. Sincerely, Macster.

+1 on what Macster said. In TO, make sure that the shop that is doing the PPI (if it's not one of the 2 dealers) has NO vested interest in the car (ie: friend of the seller) and has the proper diagnostic equipment; preferably a PIWIS tester. Have a body shop inspect it for paint density to see if there are any areas that have been repainted. Repaint on bumpers is no biggie, but body panels I would ask some serious questions. How very low is the mileage? Low mileage cars that are outside of warranty can be a bigger headache as most warranty issues crop up in the first 30K kms. Mine had a radio, the amp and the RMS replaced in those first few thousand kms and nothing more since (now at 89K Kms). Full and documented service history is an absolute must in my opinion; without it, it's a deal breaker for me. I saw lots of great "looking" C4S' when I was shopping, but few with full service histories. After market warranties are a complete waste of money IMHO. Put the premium in the bank every year and you'll self warranty your car or have a nice fund for a vacation at the end of it all. good luck with it and do pop into the Canada forum and introduce yourself. Lots of GTA members and we have weekly get togethers.

PM BruceP on the forum. He lives in Toronto and has a head on his shoulders.

Thanks for all of the info guys! Assuming all checks out with the car, will definitely be stopping by here regularly. The car has 23,000km. It has full service records from Pfaff - had the radio replaced already. Previous owner complained of "unintended acceleration" - brough it in a few times, they didn't find anything. He elected to have the accelerometer or something changed (at $1900 or so) at his own expense. He traded in the car for a turbo. I'm headed over to the service shop in a few minutes with a list of "to check" items - in 24 hours mostly spent browsing this site, I feel like a soon-to-be junior apprentice mechnanic wannabe.

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Oooh, unintended acceleration -- that's a new one! (Is the car a Tip?) Sure glad that guy got a Turbo, ha. Car sounds nice, good luck and hope you're driving soon.

good luck someone really should sticky a thread that answers all the ''i'm about to buy a porsche what should i look for' etc

I 2nd what buzztt said. Macster gave some excellent suggestions that I wish I had when my car got a PPI'd. knock on wood that my car is still running top-shape. I really wish my PPI shop (which was a local well respected Porsche shop) gave me the same level details that Macster pointed out above. Good Luck on PPI!

Looks like we're getting the car! They spent a few hours going over the car, including test driving it. The biggest problem: only 40% tread on the rear tires, both evenly worn) and about 65% on the fronts. There is 99% left on all brakes - apprently just had new rotors and pads put on all four. No evidence of oil residue in, on or around the car. The front bumper had some small chipped areas that had been touched up. All body panels matched up in alignment and colour. No CEL codes to report - either the car is a total lemon and was reset a bunch of times, or, with only 23,000km on it, the guy before me was pampering it for me!!! All electrical seems to functioning just fine. Windows, spoiler, radio, A/C etc all working. It also had a recent oil change and the next major service is not due for another 20,000+ km's. I have all of the service records on the car since it was new - a couple of window switch and radio issues that were all repaired in the first year or two under warranty. Sooo, fngers crossed that the car continues to drive as well as it did during my hour long test drive yesterday (withtout the delaer in the car). I'm still on the fence about the aftermarket warranty. The mechanic said if we do go for it, get in writing (doubt they would) something to the effect that they would cover the IMS failure / engine repair / replacement.

Sounds good. Surprised that a car with such low mileage has had it's rotors and pads replaced. Mine is still on the originals at 89K kms!...and it's seen a few trackdays. Another track regular is still on his OE rotors on his C4S but has gone through pad replacement...he's much faster than me! Hmmm, maybe I don't use my brakes enough. Rear tires do wear at twice the speed of the fronts. Range for the rears is 12K to 20K depending on how much/little camber you've dialed in and how you drive it.

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I was a little concerned about that - either the brakes were hardly used and have 99% pads left, or according to the dealer, the guy before me was a LITTLE **** about his cars, he bought it used with 10,000km and is the type of character to put new brakes on the car just so he knew they were perfect! I couldn't find the work order for the brakes, so I'm assuming they are actually original, just barely used! (The very first guy drove the car on sunny days only and trades his cars in every two years for a new one regardless of miles. The second guy traded up to a turbo). I'm not concerned about the tires, with what, 120-180 treadwear, I was surprised they had that much tread left on them!

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I would spend the budget on the IMS bearing retrofit and call it a day. All of the other repairs would not be expensive if you find a good indy.

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With that low mileage, I wouldn't be surprised if those were the original pads & rotors. You'll be amazed at the brakes on these cars...they stop like anchors and last longer than on any other cars I've owned.

Anyone in Toronto have the IMS bearing retrofit done? Cost? Will forego the "warranty" - they wouldn't put anything to my satisfaction in writing and while one company covers bearings wearing out, etc - they only cover up to $5000 - if the engine goes... So, yeah, will save the $3300 for the comprehensive warranty - put it towards an IMS bearing retrofit. Thanks for all of the advice so far!

Congrats on your new 911 Porsche. Can't wait to see some pics of your new ride. Rear tires do wear quickley, but that's part of Porsche ownership. sounds like the PPI went well for you. Enjoy the ride!

Congratulations and welcome to the addiction

Can't wait to see some pictures of it hint hint

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None that I know. Wait until you need a new clutch as most of the labour is probably the same anyway. Post pics of your new baby and come and show it off at our Saturday mornings GTG!

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BruceP had it done in Toronto.

BAD news, worse news & good news BAD news - we just got our quote for repairing a leaking flat roof on our house - 30 grand - whole roof has to get redone and insulated. Worse news - there goes half the money for the C4S. bye bye Porsche Almost brought tears to my eyes!!!! Good News - took my dad for a drive in the car - HE fell in love with it too and decided to buy it instead! So, at least it stays in the family! I get first dibs if he ever decides to sell, otherwise, will continue to save for a TT version!!! We're still picking it up today - but it will live with him most of the time. He's pretty good at sharing though. All I have to do is get my 5 year old to give him the Bambi eyes and he'll hand over the keys for a weekend or two! I still plan on staying on the forum as I will essentially be in charge of maintaining the car etc. Heck, I found the damn car, so would love to get out to some of the meets, assuming showing up in a relatives Porsche is kosher!!! Will post pics hopefully later today.

Sorry to hear about your roof. But I have to say that your Dad is a man of excellent taste!

Excellent taste indeed, it's his tact that may be of question in that he is sure to rub it in (all in good fun of course). Ah well, we get along very well, we even work together and live close enough to carpool to our clinic!

glad to hear the car is staying in the same family... what's ur clinic?

Our clinic is called the Toronto Veterinary Emergency Hospital, it's a 24 hour emergency and specialty referral hospital.

Some quick snapshots I took just a little while ago while my dad was picking up HIS new car...

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that's good to know; I'll put that in Chaplin's (our dog) file. Always like to do business with fellow rennlisters.

Mitch, Sorry it did not work out for you, thats a nice C4S!

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Cheers! Let's hope we never have to meet that way! We're kinda the last people you want to have to see, but will be glad we are here if you ever do! I do referral surgery, and my father, internal medicine. Off Topic - what kind of dog do you have?

I wish my Vet was a Porsche guy (German shorthaired pointer here)

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Like we haven't heard that before.

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Bright side is you'll get to learn the car more while riding to work in it during commutes. Plus if anything goes wrong with it before you buy it from him he is paying for it

Damn Mitch, sorry to hear about the costly roof. Tough decision.... new roof or Porsche..... new roof or Porsche...... new roof or Porsche? Hey Honey, .... awe, never mind!

congratulations!! welcome to the big butt club. now join the PCA and i will see at some driving events in the summer JB

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Thanks! Now I'm going to have to create a sig similar to yours "Dr Mitch - ALMOST had a 911" - well, still got my Mazdaspeed 3 which is a complete blast to drive.