Looking for a few, good trolls

I need some C4S owners to weigh in on why someone should buy a C4S over an M3. Or if not, why. Any takers? http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=403456

If I'm not mistaken, monabaker used to post here when he was shopping for a C2. He ended up giving on the Porsche and went to get an M3. This was only a few months ago.

Nothing wrong with an all wheel drve Porsche. Many people need training wheels in a sports car.

And some people need drivers training in the snow.

OK, I don't really qualify. I have a C2, but I think that those BMW guys covered the area pretty well. Aside from the few "Stand by your brand" comments, they said that the BMW is more practical and the 911 handling is addictive.

I was, like many, in the same situation when I had a hard time deciding whether to buy a C2/4 OR a M3. Having both would be nice...

I figure there are two reasons to go for the Porsche (or not, depending on what's important to you) 1. Space - the M3 has a bigger back seat and a real trunk, where the Porsche is a pure sports car. 2. Exclusivity - there's no question that the C4S has a much bigger status/stature element, where the M3 barely stands out from the 3 series crowd. I've gone back and forth on this a million times - taking the kids to school, I wish I had the M3, but when it's just me I'd want the Porsche.

At last DE event, I found a new appreciation for my C2 as well as the M3. Both cars are fast and handle great. There's no question about that. As for me, I bought my P-car because the M3 interior looks way too close to my 330i. After discussing with my fiancee, her comment won the day, "The M3 is just your 330 on steroids. If you really want a sports car, I say get the Porsche." -td <- 9 days 'til the wedding

If you have to ask, get the M3.

I have owned a total of three BMW 3 series with one of them customized and after owning my first 996 cab for about 6 months also custom there is no comparison, yes the Bimmer is good for practcallity but the Porsche ,( My Opinion), is more of ATrue Exotic and on A completely different level.

hows this for a reason, becuase you want a sports car and not a family sedan.

You can't put it any more succinctly than that. Also if you want a sports car, you go with the C4S. The M3 is a GT. If you don't need a useable back seat and you can afford the price differance, the C4S is the clear choice.

no it's not fine. u will find yourself never drive the M3

I am a contractor who sees customers regularly in my car. I went with the M3 just because it can fly under the radar a bit more. If you pull up in any Porsche 944-968-911-928 you get the look of I must be paying you too much. If I was in a field where it didn't matter there is no question that my lights would be round.

Tons of misinformation in that thread. If you are looking for a sports car the C4S is much more capable than the e46 M3 and it sounds and looks better getting you where you want to go. Unless you need the space I'd think the choice would be a no brainer. However, this is a Porsche board and that's a BMW board. Naturally, they will tend to prefer the M3 and we will tend to prefer the Porsche. Arr0gant, wars between boards are dumb and I'm not inclined to go "troll" their board. You spent a lot of time getting that new C4S of yours and created you own little mini series drama in the process. Just enjoy the car and let the M3 boys play nicely in their own sand box.

Arrogant- I think you've seen me on the M3 boards before. I've owned 4 E46 M3's and think I can speak with some clarity to your concerns. I am not a brand-buying snob -- (no offense p-car owners -- just b/c it's a p-car does not make it special ) Porsche hands down wins in handling. There's no comparison and any M3 owner that would tell you otherwise is in a huge state of denial. That said, for someone NOT SKILLED in driving -- the M3 is a better car. It is MUCH more forgiving and easier to drive than a Porsche. Hence, why some M3 owners can outdrive porsche owners -- partly because the BMW has higher tolerances for the M3 owner to do stupid things in it, e.g., braking in the middle of a turn does not upset the car as much as a p-car. Feedback -- again, porsche wins this hands down. The feedback is so much better than the M3. I've owned quite a few E36 M3's, and the E46 M3 is sluggish in terms of feel compared to an E36 M3, and coffin-like compared to a porsche. Utility -- BMW. BMW is a GOOD all-around car. It does not do any one thing great. It does, at least in my opinion, all things 'good'. For 90% of the population, BMW is a smarter choice. I know many porsche owners that only bought the car because they think it's a 'STATUS' symbol. There are A LOT more p-car owners that buy the p-car for status than BMW owners. I've met at least 10-15 owners in local meetings that bought the car b/c it's higher status than a BMW ... Ridiculous. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me. I've been a fairly active BMW member. I've had SMG, manual, and highly highly modded E46 M's .. so, I can speak intelligently without bias -- I hope Buy the car that is best suited for YOUR needs. Status symbol be damned. If you need a car to make yourself feel better, then you have more serious issues to attend to. I personally, if this was your ONLY car -- would get the M3 hands down. No question in my mind. Fully useable trunk -- easier to drive, easier to maintain, and, a bit easier to resell in my opinion. Bigger market for M3's than for 911's. You have H.S./college kids buying M3's -- not as many buying the 911's.

Not for me, it was for someone considering a C4S or an M3. Was just looking to direct some P advise his way. Thanks anyhow!!

Buy the car that is best suited for YOUR needs. Status symbol be damned. If you need a car to make yourself feel better, then you have more serious issues to attend to. I personally, if this was your ONLY car -- would get the M3 hands down. No question in my mind. Fully useable trunk -- easier to drive, easier to maintain, and, a bit easier to resell in my opinion. Bigger market for M3's than for 911's. You have H.S./college kids buying M3's -- not as many buying the 911's. I agree with your perspective. The lack of a useable back seat is probably the reason why not many H.S. kids drive 911s, since you can easily buy a 996 in the low $30s. Most kids travel in packs which makes the 911 a bad choice. The market for an M3 is far greater than that for a 911 because of the practicality issue. It seems like almost every manufacturer now offers at least one two seater model, and probably 95% of the car buying public requires a useable back seat.

For me, the answer was simple. I owed 2 Audi S4's, the latest an '05 which I sold with 500 miles on the odo. The S4 is NOT a sports car (I considered the M3, and feel much the same about that car as the S4, even tho the BMW is a coupe/convertible), it's a good sports sedan. The Porsche is a sports car, pure and simple. It feels different to me in most every respect - much more nimble, sure-footed. I have an '04 C4S which is just a great car - very different from the Audis or BMWs. Drive them all and decide what works for you, and (unlike me) ask yourself honestly whether you want a sports car or sports sedan - then make your choice. I have to take issue with 'fast1' - I say buy the car that makes you feel better and that you feel better about. Don't do what I did - buy a car like an S4, then regret it. In sum, they're all good machines, just different from each other. Good luck. Phil G. ____________________________________________________ 2004 C4S Coupe Atlas/Black (1700 miles)

Those of us who have been or who are in this position are very fortunate. I think it would be like considering dating two hot but different models and you need to settle down for a period of time with one. The reason we are fortunate is we get to sleep with both (test drive) and then pick the best one. As for me, the C2 was a lot more fun in bed! k

Nosoup4you Welcome to the board. The M3 is definitely a great sport sedan (I looked at purchasing one for myself), but the "safe" handling you describe in my experience of driving the M3 is what I would call big understeer. Understeer is great for novice safety but a lot of understeer certainly reduces the sporting nature of the car. (Turning the intrusive DSC off helps reduce some of the understeer, but BMW has chosen to build quite a bit into the setup of the car.) Problem number two is weight, as in "holy weight gain batman" what happened to the E36? Did the E46 replace the E36 or did a Z3 eat one in the middle of the night? Shame on Porsche for making the 997 heavier than the 996 (which Porsche managed to make lighter than the 993), but at least they kept the gain to a minimum. I truly hope the next gen M3 brings the weight back down. Practicality, the Bimmer wins hands down, but come on your comparing a sports car to a sports sedan what do you really expect? Status seekers......unquestionably Porsche attracts its fair share, but more than BMW....give me a break I just don't see it. As a group, I would say Porsche owners are more of a hard core enthusiast group than almost any other automotive brand on the market today. Obviously the M models cater more to the enthusiast than the bread and butter Bimmers, unfortunately (for the E46 M3) that enthusiasm often seems to reveal itself in the form of pure "bling" (those HS and college kids you mentioned perhaps). Porsche has not totally escaped the bling artists, but it's not even in the same realm as BMW. One could look no further than the average PCA schedule for the volume of autocrosses, rally's, DE's, and Club races vs. the typical BMW CCA schedule for quick look at how strongly the Porsche enthusiast core still beats. I would venture to say that as a percentage of cars built far more Porsche's will see participation in these types of events than BMW's. Then again opinions are like........... and everyone has one. Furthermore, opinions on the internet are the worst kind (and I believe that I just placed mine squarely online). The M3 is unquestionably a great car and no car is perfect (not even the vaunted 911). As TD said....love the one you're with....

I had a 2004 M3 and now own a 996 C2 and a 987S. I loved the M3, but I wanted more of a performance car. The M3 was somehow less happy going over 100mph than my 996. In fact, the 996 takes speed so well, you hardly notice it. It can be scary actually. That being said, the fit and finish of the M3 was a notch above the 996. No one can debate that Porsche has been improving here. My 987S (which has similar interior to a 997) matches the M3 in feel. Meanwhile, BMW seems to be trending downhill in quality. The 6-series feels like a ford inside. That being said, I am in the crowd that, if I could I would like to have kept the M3 *and* keep the 987S and 996. At gunpoint, though, forced to choose, I would (surprise surprise) keep the 987S. It's a hoot and very agile in the turns. tmc

For me M3 vs C4S the M3 wins....but personally I don't care for AWD cars...my Audi A4 is even the front-drive version and not quattro. M3 vs. C2...couldn't decide so view my sig...eventually I'm sure one of them will leave the garage but not until they're both modified to the same level, then I"ll make my decision. Right now the M3 is not only more practical but also turns quicker lap times. Andy

More practical I'll grant you....but faster lap times (stock vs. stock).........lay off the crack, it's making you say silly things.

Count me in the 'issues' group, I guess. Because if I was only concerned with my needs, I'd have gone straight to the Toyota store. I left needs behind a long time ago. Cars like the Porsche or the BMW are about wants.

Interesting comment. Today I traded my '06 BMW M5 for an '02 996 turbo. The M5 is a fantastic car that I have enjoyed very much, but something always felt "wrong". Not with the car - it was (is) perfect ... I just sensed something was not right with me. After discussing it with my wife I finally realized that the advantages of a high performance sedan with room for kids and groceries is not what I need or want at this stage in my life. All the kids are grown and on their own and I (we) have several other cars in the stable, including my wife's BMW 750 Li. We realized that what I was looking for was an "unpractical", true sports car. So, I visited the Porsche dealer this morning and found the jet black certified 996 turbo with 18k miles sitting in the showroom. Picking it up Friday with great anticipation. Eisboch www.eisboch.com

COngrats. Sounds like a wise decision!!

Buy what you want, who cares what we think...this is like going into a Rolex store and asking the sales person what does he think about a Cartier. Its all about what you want the car for, you need to see which car fits your needs... " Different strokes for different folks"

Congrat on your Turbo! Bet it's going to be hard to sleep until Friday! Kilrgt: Hey Paul, good to see you back and healthy again (sorry to hear you were ill). Some of us were wondering what was up with you during our Saturday GTG in TO. Hopefully we'll see you soon at one of those.

Right now the M3 does have faster lap times...but it's because they are not stock vs. stock. M3: TCK SA coilovers (550lb f / 600lb r springs) Ground Control sway bars Ground control camber plates. -200 lbs for track days. 275/35/18 tires on all 4 corners. 996 Stock 40K mile M030 shocks H&R springs. GT3 rear bar with stock M030 front bar. Times are closer than I would have thought...but I'm still about 2 seconds off of the pace at Mid Ohio in the 996 vs. the M3. I'm sure all of that will change once winter comes and goes and the 996 gets the suspension mods that are planned for it. Andy

That sounds more like it. A full race suspension and a 200 lb diet and the M3 is only 2 seconds faster against an almost stock 3.4 996. Additionally, I see you needed 275's up front to tame the M3's massive understeer. Are you running stock brakes on the M3? If so how do they hold up to track use? Any fade?

Yup...M3's been my toy for the last few years...those time comparisons are on street tires...but yes the 275's up front do help tame the understeer issues. The car is actually a dream to drive in it's current configuration but it's nearly tapped out and I know the 996 has more potential. I forgot to mention I have some weight savings done to the 996 right now (removed spare, autozone muffler bypass for the track, lightweight battery, removed rear seats and rear seat belts). M3 has Stock calipers but Euro rotors (drilled with alluminum hats), Hawk HT-14 front and HT-10 rear, stainless lines. Backing plates removed, no cooling in place though. Only time I got fade was when the pads got thin. Didn't realize I had gone through as much pad as I did and at the end of a DE was down to 1mm of pad material left. Andy