RAIN DAMAGE, NEW ENGINE: May this be a warning to you

Last week, I parked my 99 996 at a friends house, clear skies. About 4 hours later when I left a major storm had come through and it was raining like hell. A roof drain without a downspout was spewing water onto the front of my car. Water was mainly going into the front compartment but a lot was flowing down the roof to the engine. When I got in to drive off, my brake pedal was rock hard and copious amounts of white smoke came billowing from the exhaust. It couldn't rev without stumbling horribly. Had it towed to the mechanic and by now the engine was hydro-locked. They removed the plugs and the words of my mech: "I've never seen this much water in an engine, every cylinder. Its in the intake, cylinders, fuel lines, vacuum lines" BTW: The car is completely up to date on service, body drains cleared and everything at 60,000 (74,000 now). Here is what happened: The front compartment became water logged (3-4 inches) and water was sucked into the booster. From the booster's vacuum line, water got sucked into the engine (?). Water got into the intake as well as the fuel lines (?) Basically water got in every which way. They got the engine running and there's a horrible knock diagnosis: bent rod, maybe crank. NEW ENGINE. The mech needs to replace the booster, master cylinder, vacuum lines, and maybe fuel lines. I am lucky because the insurance company stated emphatically that this issue is covered. However, BODY DRAINS ARE NO JOKE. I strongly believe that a heavy rain with clogged body drains could approximate this very situation and in that situation, I don't think you'd have a strong case with the insurance company. Just thought I'd relay this story as a warning. Please go clear your drains right now!!!

OMG thats horrible... good that your insurance company will cover all the damage..

what insurance do you have that will replace all these parts based on this story? I mean its great, but I just dont think of it as an insurance claim.....good for you, I hope it works out.

That's totally an insurance claim Ed. I mean I'm no expert, but it's accidental damage plain and clear.

I guess so.... I personally would never have thought of it though.... now I know where to park the car when she gets tired

Real bummer! Never would have thought that it would be possible for the motor to get water flooded in that way. I've driven through super heavy rain for one hour once without even a stutter from the engine even though i thought that it was going to suck it in throught the intake in my case. Glad you have a great insurance policy!! Pete

Im not an insurance expert by any means however, after contacting them there was no hesitation as to whether it was covered. In my mind, its no different than if a brick fell off the house and smashed my windshield. They'll be able to verify the rain, verify the broken spout next time it rains, etc. Furthermore, my shop stated that without a doubt the only casuse of this damage was rain water. I think the kicker here is that the drain spount was GUSHING water into the front of the car, down the roof over the engine, for nearly 3-4 hours.

Yikes!

So my question is, what is the location of the drain plugs? I keep mine garaged but do drive in the rain so I'd hate to have anything remotely close happen to me.

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+1... But I wouldn't say the second part out loud... So... that was covered under Comprehensive Coverage??? (taking notes just in case - but we don't get a lot of rain in So Cal...) Rudy

I can see how the water made from the brake booster to the intake, if the power brakes on the 996 are like any other car I've owned and driven by vacuum from the intake. My question is how the water made it into the booster. It's been raining pretty hard the past few days in Co, and I'll be loking into the drains and the booster this evening. Thanks for the post! Andy

From my own inspection of Porsche diagrams, it looks like water gets past the boots on the master cylinder and into the booster that way. All the electronics and the booster in the sealed part under the front hood, not the shelf. However, when you have as much standing water as I did, it gets in there.

So I guess the P0446 isn't really an issue now. BTW - a new AOS comes with the new motor.

Haha, yeah.

here are your drains... clear them!!

Yup those two drains on the front of the car can really cause problems. I am surprised that the car even started.. Usually with enough water in there the battery shorts out. Normally water in the front compartment just takes out the braking system never even thought that it could get sucked from there into the engine in the back. I personally always worry about water collecting in my intake and getting directly sucked into the engine.

Dont sweat that - these are "water pumpers"

Navy, Sorry to hear about the misfortune but glad you're covered. However, one unanswered question still sticks in my mind. How would water get into the fuel lines? Through the evap system possibly? It couldn't have backed up through the injectors. In any case, the gas tank may need to be drained and flushed. I wouldn't risk starting a new motor on water.....

I'm not sure but that's what they said. I couldn't figure that one out completely myself.

yikes terrible story.......what no bilge pumps, Navy?

This is a fully stock 996? Water got into your sealed trunk, past the boot on the sealed master cylinder, and was sucked into the motor via a vacuum booster line - is this right?

No bilge pumps on this ship. Yes, this is a completely stock 996. The compartment is sealed, however the brake booster draws a vacuum line from the intake manifold and when you fire the engine up and have 3-4 inches of standing water in the compartment, the vacuum line sucks the water in regardless of the boots. The situation here (as per my mechanic) water in water to booster-water through vacuum line to engine. Water came in through the intake as too. Apparently there was even H20 in the fuel line. Dont know how that happened though.

I just don't buy this. While I certainly appreciate the dilemma you're facing I can't see one of these cars suffering such a devastating failure from a bunch of water,--and introduced into all those systems?

Make sure you follow the TSB for the brake booster replacement. The have changed seals etc. to help avoid this issue. You also will want to update your drain tubes (based on your photos) to the ones in the TSB, cost is very minimal for the added protection

I can appreciate doubt, but I think you have to appreciate the amount of water dumped on my car. Caused by a gutter drain without a down spout empting directly onto my car for 3-4 hours. The hydrolock caused by water in the engine, both through the vacum and the intake damages internal components severely and in this case its most likely a bend rod.

I'm sorry for your loss, and I can't explain the failure, but I'm with Dan; it just sounds like too much of a stretch; the intake air box is full of holes just for this very reason. The box should have been fully drained by the time you started your car.

The major source of water was the vacuum line from the booster, not the intake, though some water came from there too. Again, I don't know about the fuel system. (??).

a new engine? Is your insurance company run by angels? The tooth fariy? Santa claus? Easter bunny? Is it your birthday?

I'm sorry that it happened, at least your insurance company stepped-up.

I dont have all those holes in my airbox

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+1

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To the OP: good luck in getting your car worked out, but I think there may be another explanation for the problems.

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I've seen this diagram numerous times and wanted to check mine. What I don't understand, however, is how in the hell do you get to these drains? I can't seem to spot them.

I don't know why everyone is saying sorry, when you are actually getting a new engine, at no cost to you. I think you are lucky! Enjoy the new engine, with all the latest upgrades from Porsche.

To the naysayers................ it is possible. Seen it more then once. Much more common for the drains to plug and flood the car soak the interior fry the alarm ecu ect. Had the vechile had a 15k or 30k ect at a dealer recently? The drains are next to the battery on each side of it, with the cover removed the easy one to see is the the one on the pass side. These can be cleaned out with compressed air and a long blowgun.

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Brad, I don't think anyone doubts that the drains can clog and take out your brakes, battery or soak the interior. The naysayers are referring to the cars ability to suck water from the clogged area up front through the brake booster and ingest that into the engine and cause hydrolock. Also that the stock intake can fill with water while parked and then ingest water into the engine as well.

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I have the front open right now (no covers) so tonight I will shoot a couple pictures and show those to you.... I thought I did a DIY cleaning write up a while ago too, but I am not sure where I put that info... This is a simple and "feels good" job. Glad to see people taking an interest in it.

As inplausible as it may seem, there was water in the vacuum line leading to the intake. Regardless, something, whether water in the intake, vacuum line, or elsewhere, had to get enough water into the engine to hydrolock it. I appreciate a new engine, but I'm not so desirious as to give my own engine a drink...

Is your a Tip? I don't have any vacuum lines going to my intake/airbox.

My car's a manual From Pelican: "The brake booster is a particularly expensive piece to replace. There is only one manufacturer of these, and they price them in the stratosphere. The good news is that these don't usually need to be replaced. Used on the power brake cars, they accept a vacuum hose from the engine manifold" This is a picture from Pelican's DIY about the booster, I'm assuming the hose in the right corner is the vaccum line. As you can see, the booster holds a voluminious amount of water and the hose is stout enough to convey it. I have not physically seen the hose however, couldnt tell you exaclty how to find it, or if your model/year has it.

I agree it can hold a huge amount of water... but by definition this part is in vacuum and air (or water) doesnt just "fill it up" then there is the gas line...here is another sealed system. Well I guess so anyhow, as otherwise you would have raw fuel smell and spillage all over the trunk area. So if fuel doesnt go out, how does huge amounts of water go in? again, cool you get repaired on the insurance....dont get me wrong, but as I stated in the first post...I am not sure how this equates to an insurance claim AND I would have never thought to involve them AND like others.... this seems a bit "off" but if it happens its best we know and prevent it.... if we can

All I can say to the doubt about the brake booster filling with water is to search other posts and find that it happens. As has been mentioned before, Porsche instituted various upgrades to alleviate this problem. From an earlier poster: "Make sure you follow the TSB for the brake booster replacement. They have changed seals etc. to help avoid this issue." As for the insurance claim, I don't see how this isn't a claim. I park the car, it rains, the drain spout deluges my car with water, standing water in the front compartment, intake etc. Take it to the shop, hydro-locked, water (not coolant) in the cylinders. Accidental damage... I'm genuinely curious as to what other possible scenarios are. Anybody have any ideas? And btw, I didn't take it on the submarine with me...

my uncle was on subs for 20+ years.. by the way, thank you for your service to our country

Well it should be stated that I am still in training, a lowly "candidate" if you will. But thank you regardless

Chain of events. 1. rain 2. Drains plugged 3. cowl fills with water up past the operating rod for the booster 4 booster is now a viable drain for the flodoed cowl area 5. car started 6 water sucked though the brake booster through the vacum line in to the engine 7 boom The vacum line does not hook to your air box Looking at the engine on the drivers side of the motor you will see a 3/4 inch black coregated plastic tube that comes from the top of the engine compartment and connects to the engine . THis is your booster line. It really doesnt take alot of fluid to damage the engine all it needs to do is fill one cylinder .6 liters is all it would take at most, I can assure you the booster holds more then that. As for water in the fuel system.............................. the only way it may be possible is though the evap box but i would have to see it in person to belive it.

Am still in doubt about this entire chain of events. One area in which you're treading on soft ground surrounds the issue of the drains being plugged up. If I were an insurance company I would come back and say that you failed to maintain them in working order, and that was a contributory cause of the engine problems. I think we'd all LOVE to have your insurance company. When my car comes off warranty in several years and I think I'm about to suffer the dreaded RMS or half shaft failure, I'm looking for a down spout to park under!

I can assure you the drain was not plugged beyond what would be considered normal. My car is completely up to date on maintenance, my service receipt from 14,000 miles ago even notes clearing the body drains, as is indicated by the Porsche maintenance checklist, therefore invalidating any claim that I was negligent. The amount of debris in the compartment and subsequently in front of the drains was caused by debris out of the downspout, all it took was some leaves and pine needles.

It is not at all unheard of to have a legit claim for something like this. A freind of mine parked his convertible legally in a parking lot, away from the other cars, top down, unaware that the reason that part of the lot was empty was that when the wind & tide were right, huge saltwater waves often crested and landed in that section of the lot. He came back like 1/2 hour later to find his Z3 with a couple of inches of salt water in it. His insurance company totaled the car.

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where is that parking lot again?

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theres 7 sports cars in the shop right now due to this kind of flooding, not negligence, just poor luck at the wrong time. It really doesnt matter if you fail to mantain thats why you have insurance, any outides influence damage the results when you are not driving the car. Be it a tree falling on it or the the leaves from the tree causing the car to flood

It sounds like we all need to stay on top of these drains! Years ago we had an issue with the headlight buckets in the 911s filling with water. There is a rubber self-closing drain in the bottom of each bucket that is 'SUPPOSED" to drain water but they easily filled up with sand, etc. and would then plug up. The solution in those days was to take a small length of soda straw, clip it to about 1/2 inch in length, and push it into the tube, essentially keeping the drain open all the time. Problem solved. I'm sure these are different.

Think about it. The drains aren't that large - they're only large enough to remove heavy rain falling on the car. If you have the roof of a house collecting rain in a heavy storm, and then directing that onto the cowl area (as Navy said in the first post in this thread), you're going to have more water in the cowl area than the drains can reasonably remove, even if they are completely clean. Visualize using something like using a 4" diameter fire hose to fill your bathroom sink. Even if the drain is open, you're still going to have a wet floor!

I agree with Doug and also think on the other end the air box could be completely filled up and beyond.Filing the throttle body into the air intakes etc. It's about the same as a dunk in the lake.

The insurance company will probably subrogate against the building owners insurance to get their money back. It was the roof drain without a downspout that was the cause of the issue, not just normal rainfall. Not that the OP will see any of that - it'll happen in the background so his insurance company can try and recover their costs - they probably believe they have a good case, hence their willingness to step-up...

I heard of a friend's friend, who used a hose to get water into the engine, then claimed he drove over a flooded area. His insurance totaled the car. It was a 996 and he was having issues with the engine.

That would most assuredly suck. What value does an insurance company use to determine totaled? Additionally, they cut me a check for that value, do they haul off the car as well?

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Good idea! You only need to spit in the cylinders of a 996 to hydro-lock one, the chambers are really tiny.

I believe it was Golden Gate park in San Fran...(Semi off topic, but remember the infamous "Who's the U-boat commander?" scene from Risky Business? Anyone else yell "Oh, come on, the car would be totaled..no dealership will fix it, and like his father isn't going to notice water damaged leather?!!!..yes, I KNOW its just a movie, etc, etc..but don't you just HATE crappy details like that..like making the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs...just plain aggravates the engineer in me..)

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Risky bussiness was in 1983, in 1983 a 928 sold for about 50k, in today dollars thats about 200k, You would be suprised how badly a 50k car has to be damaged to total it. You would be amazed how bad a 200k car can be and still get fixed.

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Chicago

i had my doubts about this whole story, but in my mind if 99firehawk says it is possible, then I believe it is possible. I have never seen a post of his that was based on anything but real world experience. I guess I am just bummed that this story didn't come out about 4 years ago when my engine hydro locked on it's own due to a cracked cylinder wall. I would have LOVED to pay my $500 deductible rather than the $10K+ I paid out of pocket. I even thought about limping it into a bad neighborhood and leaving the keys in it, but I figured i would end up in jail somehow.

Being one who has hydro-locked 2 motors (not Porsche motors), it doesnt take much water in the M96 to destroy it. Maybe half a cup or so of water should fill the chamber.

You're right, it takes VERY little water to hydrolock. I was at the shop yesterday and they fired up my engine. IT WAS HORRIBLE. It sounded like a leprechaun was inside my engine trying to break out with a hammer. I about cried... Good news though: they are NOT totaling the car. My insurance valued my 99 911, 75000 at 25,600 which I thought was damned fair. Additionally, they stated that they'd repair it up to the FULL value, which is great. The total estimated cost of repairs: $22,000. Engine, brake booster, brake ABS unit...

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Good News? Negotiate replacement cost. (total) Start Looking, great time to buy. Congratulations.

Well I say good news because I am sentimentally attached to the car. First Porsche, dream as a kid etc etc. I guess I have visions of being that guy "that owned his Porsche for 50 years.." Plus I'm getting a new engine from Porsche w/ warranty..

Well my course of action is being refined, but Jim Ellis Porsche in Atlanta has agreed to work with me to swap in a 3.6 X51. The engine is actually about 1,000 cheaper than a 3.4 reman and the dealership is willing to negotiate with Porsche to pay for my core. That's exciting!!! However, I wanted to post on behalf of Jake Raby from Flat 6 Innovations. He was in fact the first thought I had when my engine went in the tank. I spoke with Jake over the phone and his willingness to discuss every aspect of his engine program, the parts, the exact nature, including the limitations, of his testing data was appreciated. All I can say is, if you can afford (both time and money) to have an engine built by Jake, by all means do it!! I have been a VW enthusiast for years and knew of Jake's work through that venue. He only sells quality products, builds quality engines, and personifies the "relationship" between owner and builder that can be so rewarding. I regret that I cannot take part in this... Furthermore, as a mechanical engineer that both develops and tests products, I can attest to his knowledge and understanding of legitiment development, not just "draw it on a napkin, bolt it on, and see what happens". Ultimately, I had to choose a different route simply because I could not afford the time involved in having an engine built by Jake for my daily driver but I wanted to give a shout out to him regardless. Please contact him if you're interested in his program, without going over details here it is very exciting. Thanks Jake! Hopefully my 4-cam project comes together right??

Wow, that's pretty kick ***. Keep us posted.

FYI 3.6 X51 deal didnt work out, new 3.4 going in next week.

because the core needs to be the same of the engine being purchased?

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Can you could negotiate with the insurance so that you pay the difference between the cost of an 'iffy' Porsche reman and Jake's magic motor???

No the deal with the 3.6 X51 was both prohibitively expensive (30,000) and ultimately not the direction that I wanted to take with the car. To do it correctly (in my opinion) required the swapping of a lot of electrical components including DME, HVAC & ABS controllers, wire harness, etc. The insurance company had no problem with me putting in any kind of engine I wanted. However, being my daily driver, I couldn't wait till October to have it installed.

I failed to mention that I do have a loaner 3.4 engine :-)

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Rental car? Isn't it worth it?