Why does Everyone think a $95,000k 996 Cab Costs Twice that of Similar Cars?

Having owned my 996, and carefully inspecting every inch of it... i've been wondering.. I noticed the $95k MSRP window sticker that came with my 99 cab from the original owner... (which in 99, would equate to about $105k with inflation today) Honestly, the material of the interior, really isn't anything special, the exterior, doesn't have any special parts, such as carbon fiber, or anything else, the performance is mediocore at best considering the competition these days from cars less than 1/3 the price... imho.. to warrant such a cost... Now after comparing a fully loaded 996 for $95k, with a base model lexus sc430, infiniti g35, slk350 and many other convertibles or similar sports cars that have the same, if not better build quality, parts, warranty, reliability, performance, service, etc... and are 1/2 the price... are we all being duped into paying this price simply for the marque? With the porsche 996 being sold in numbers as much as these similar cars... are we simply paying twice the price simply for the porsche badge? Yes, the driving experience is great... and yes, it's a porsche... but does anyone really think the 996 is what one can expect from an $85,000+ car? (a base model 996 cab is horribly equipped, I think $85,000 is the median price one will pay with any amount of decent options on a cab.. about $80k minimum for a coupe) The new sl500 in my opinion, is worth of being a $90,000 car... for anyone that's driven one... I doubt many can disagree.. But the 996... I just don't see it... I know a huge amount of it is profit... but the question for other owners... is besides the porsche badge and the driving experience... does anyone really feel the 996 warranted the price it did new from the dealer with the same amount of performance and amenities and almost similar driving experience, with comparable cars out there costing 1/2 the cost...? Don't get me wrong, I love my 996 when it drives... but is porsche really taking us all for a ride with these prices, or can someone explain why my 996 cab would cost $95k new, with $20k+ in options that are standard on cars half it's price... when it's not even handmade.. sells as many of these as these other cars mentioned.. and isn't even comparible in most aspects to several cars at half the cost that match it in practically every criteria, if not exceed it.. maybe back in the 90s, porsche may have dominated in many aspects... but with so much competition out there from so many manufacturers nowadays.. (which may also account for the decrease in resale value) I just don't see where these figures come from to warrant such price figures... besides a boardroom full of porsche execs laughing at us for paying so much and making ridiculous amounts of $$$ off the marque name... for a car that simply doesn't match upto the price... opinions anyone?

i disagree. you actually need to evaluate again the word similar..... porsche is not a lexus, not a merc and not like any other car..... it is a an everyday supercar which is unique..... to me non turbo P-cars are in between the exotics (ferrari-lambos etc...) and the rest of the cars... to answer your prob. place a merc , a lexus and another sportscar next to a 911......you will understand why porsche is such a nice car.....it is a legend....and this is in fact what you pay....something do not have a price, thay just have to be like this....

The 993 and previous 911s were legends.. they were built inside and out as a car that merited the price tag, as no cars had such a feel, look, inside and out... it merited outside the box... and stood out.. But the 996 I don't feel has that same feeling. It just feels and looks.. so mass produced... and is similar to so many current cars 1/2 the price on the market nowadays... I can't see where the price tag, parts costs, and the option cost(s) really come from, besides being pure profit for porsche? I don't think the 996 is an everyday supercar, especially with all the quality control and maintenance problems it has.. it's more unreliable than the 993, which isn't supposed to be an everyday supercar... I understand the porsche is a nice car... but the question is, where does porsche come up with this pricing? Is it ALL profit for them or what? Regardless of anyone's opinion of the porsche legend, with the parts, build quality, with how many hundreds of thousands of 996 and 986s they have sold..... how can these parts make this a $95,000 car, when a handmade ferrari that only sells a few thousand a year, that has exceptional build quality, and some may argue even has better reliability (having spent $33,000 in 1,000 miles on my 996 in maintenance and parts, I can vouch for this <g>) and is only a little bit more...? I can understand maybe an aston martin, due to it's rarity, and the small amount sold, due to r&d costs and handmade production costs, and other such rare vehicles, with high price tags, but porsche makes enough of these on such a mass produced factory scale, that I just don't see where the numbers add up for the 996... when hundreds of thousands of boxsters and carerras have been sold... the more sold, the less costs for the manufacturer, correct? yet has the price of the porsche lowered? no way... i understand this from a business perspective.. but realistically.. is porsche simply taking us all for a ride and making a fortune from us all due to the porsche badge on the hood? Am I alone here in my thoughts..?

You obviously don't appreciate where Porsches fit in the spectrum between everyday cars and high performance exotics. I traded my new SL500 for an '04 C4S cab after only 3 months and have had nothing but pleasure from this car. The SL was the most boring car I've driven in a long time. Comparing the cars you mention is like comparing a Patek Philippe or Breguet to a Seiko or Omega. They all keep perfect time, and if you price the raw materials, you think $10K for a simple watch is ludicrous. But there is a lot more to high end than materials and performance stats. Why doesn't everybody buy Corvettes and Subaru WRXs? The reason Porsches sell as well as they do is not the name but the near perfect balance between performance, comfort, handling, appearance, style, reliability and safety. No other car has this combination, and until they do, there will always be a premium paid by people like me.

I do appreciate them, but I ask, where the price tag comes from? I'm not talking about the driving experience, i'm not talking about the marque... I understand paying $2000 for an armani suit vs $500 for a suit from the men's warehouse.. an armani suit has handmade craftsmanship from italy, made with the best and finest materials available... while a suit from the men's warehouse is made by machines from the lowest quality materials possible... it's like comparing a ferrari to a ford... I understand paying $10,000 for a rolex, the rarity, the time involved in creating one.. vs a $100 machine made watch made for millions of people with the lowest quality materials... although both companies mention, make their share of profit on brand name recognition as well... yet nowadays, the porsche and boxster sell just as many cars as other vehicles that are 1/2 the price and compare in most every aspect... I'm not trying to argue with anyone... simplying trying to bring up a debate... I noticed one of the options for my used 996 was $9,000 to have the "wood" package... when the quality of wood that comes with this $9,000 price tag, comes factory in a car for 1/5 the price.. is where I question profit vs sheer ridicuousness... in my opinion, your statement about many cars having all of those qualities, is not true anymore... many cars 1/2 the price all fit into that criteria... and have the exact same qualities as a porsche... sure, the driving experience can't compare... but the question is, are we paying double the cost, simply for the driving experience? the porsche marque is no longer a rare vehicle... especially due to the boxster and cayenne... yet we still pay the prices for it's alleged rarity... I didn't start this thread as an arguement.. everyone is entitled to their own opinions.. just curious to hear everyone's take on it.. no need to get personal :>

i understand that bobporsche has every right to think this way but i would like to ask him a very simple question: have you personally owned a ferrari? you said: Regardless of anyone's opinion of the porsche legend, with the parts, build quality, with how many hundreds of thousands of 996 and 986s they have sold..... how can these parts make this a $95,000 car, when a handmade ferrari that only sells a few thousand a year, that has exceptional build quality, and some may argue even has better reliability (having spent $33,000 in 1,000 miles on my 996 in maintenance and parts, I can vouch for this <g>) and is only a little bit more...? where do you get these info from? have you ever seen a ferrari with 100K miles regardless of year make? if yes, without a prof. rebuilt with receipts advertised? have you ever seen a ferrari top quality leather interior after 5 years of every day driving? ever seen an every day driven ferrari? do not think that a ferrari has that reliable feedback.... that's why ferrari's prices get close to 996 prices.....because in fact they have to drop prices in order to sell.....

have you ever seen a porsche 996 with 100k miles regardless of year and make without a rebuilt engine? I'm on my 3rd rebuilt engine with my 996... and it has 50k miles... And yes I have seen many used ferraris with exceptional top quality leather on them even after being owned for years with high mileage. The owners usually take amazing care of these vehicles, and keep them in the best shape possible... and yes, I know several young individuals that drove their modenas daily.. one younger guy I know drove his 2001 modena everyday without any problems for 24,000 miles and traded it in for a gallardo recently... 5 years of driving.. and the car looked brand new, inside out.. and this is a 23 year old kid keep in mind that owned it... most ferrari owners don't, as they have a variety of other vehicles in their stable they like to drive, and keep the ferrari for a weekend vehicle... (in terms of ferrari, this does not apply to the 348.. it was an exception, i've seen a few messes there... but I don't really think that was a ferrari... kind of like a piece of crap with a ferrari body and logo :>) in terms of ferrari prices.. as far as I am aware, the ferrari resale value can't even compare to that of the 996.. used modena convertibles with 20,000 miles and are several years old are selling for more, than they were new...! and 355 spyders that are 7 years old with 20,000 miles are selling at 2/3 their retail price... look at the price of a 2 year old 996 cab with 20,000 miles recently? They are selling for less than 2/3 of their retail price... doesn't that say something? I'm not here to "dis" porsche... i'm simply asking the question as to where the cost comes from for these vehicles... nobody has yet to answer my question :> Are we simply paying $45,000 more for the prestige and the driving experience, or is there something I am missing? These cars aren't handbuilt anymore.. as the original question implies.. what warrants the additional $45,000 cost? If it's simply the driving experience, and the porsche marque... fine :> but i'm just curious, as to what people's opinion is on where their pricing figure comes from, due to the high number of these sold and the quality of these vehicles compared to those 1/2 the price... that's all... everyone seems to be skirting around the question at hand.. . I've owned over 20 vehicles myself, and no car can compare to the porsche driving experience.. agreed.. but that isn't the question i've asked.. now will anyone step forward and come up with a reasonable answer for the cost of these vehicles as to what they are in today's current market?

I've owned a C2 Cab and a Lexus SC430. The performance is very different. The Lexus is a nice car but it's not in the same class as the Porsche as far as performance goes. I've owned a Ferrari 550 too. In my opinion the build quality sucked and it was a P.O.S. as far as reliability goes. Oil leaks, water leaks, motor mounts broke, fuel cutoff switch, yada yada yada.

As I'm sure you know, Porsche brought in Toyota to help them with reducing costs in manufacturing. The problem is that Porsche now builds a car that is not the quaility level of a Toyota imo. After owning vertually every 911 since the 80s, I don't see myself buying another one. Porsche wants huge money, overbuilds the car causing resale values to plumit, and then does not deliver quality consistant with the price, again imo. Both of my Toyotas (Lexus LS430 & Sequoia) have been better vehicles. The total time in the shop for both combined is less than any of the three 996s I have owned (2 996 Cabs and a Turbo). Fire away

I give you this: you have some b@lls to stay in this forum after so many people have called you a troll, said you're full of $hit and much worse. I guess it is the same determination that has allowed you to spend over $40K in repairs on a used car you got for $39K. Other men would've quit but you stuck with it. You go!!! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You obviously did not think the MSRP for a new 996 was justified so you went with a previously owned '99 -- from a Ford dealership no less. Why pay the premium Porsche Certified Pre-Owned, right? At $90K new, I thought my '00 cab was a bit pricey but well worth it. I still enjoy driving the car today as much as I did 4 years ago. Again, that is your opinion. In my opinion, the cars you mentioned above are not even in the same league as the 996. Try comparing those cars with the BoxsterS and maybe you can start a good debate. It's like deja vu -- I feel someone is trying to take me for a ride again. Bob please, "I love my 996 when it drives..." How long have you actually driven your car? From you previous posts you made it sound like the car had problems -- major problems -- from day one! I for one would be cursing out the car if I spent all that money and time on repairs and so on. Come on, let's be honest. You just heard some of my opinions -- I am entitled to them as much as you're entitled to yours. But please stop posting these pieces of cr@p pretending to want to engage in an intelligent debate when your grounds for debate is fundamentally flawed. In my opinion, you are just trying to -- for whatever reason -- bad mouth Porsches and put down the thousands of very happy Porsche owners out there. .: programmatore :.

programmatore, while i appreciate your completely false insight... i simply proposed a debatable question... I'm sure many others have thought along my lines as well... there is no need to argue... I hopefully get my porsche back this week after the new transmission gets installed, and I can't wait to drive it (now that I have my extended warranty with a $0 deductible the porsche is the most enjoyable car to drive i've ever had in the short time i've had it... regardless of the maintenance issues i've encountered... i'm not trying to ruin your fun, or anyone else's fun... i'm simply asking... for the fourth time... where the costs come from for the 996 when they sell so many 986 and 996s and they are all so mass produced on the scale they are.. that's all... i'm not arguing about maintenance, not arguing about reliability, etc... simply why this vehicle is $100k fully equipped, when nowadays, in the year 2004, there are similar cars with the same attributes for half the price... is it "just for the driving experience" and "the porsche marque" or is there something else someone would like to contribute? everyone is entitled to their own opinion and answers, that's what forums are for... not to attack a simple question made by a fellow porsche owner..

It wasn't just a simple question. Have you driven the cars you say are comparable for much less money? Try to push a Lexus or Mercedes hard into a corner and compare that with a Porsche. It's not the same feeling. As far as cost goes.........Porsche does make an obscene amount of money on the cars and brags to be the most profitable automaker. So, we decide to pay the price and drive one or pay less and drive something else.

The car that most argues bobporsche's case here is the Audi S4 Cab. A few more pounds, a few more horses and awd. It doesn't cost half a C4s but not much more than and it's perfomance straight line is pretty close, also as a daily driver it's got to be very close to equal. But I would imagine if you really wetn out and hammered in it it wouldn't like it anywhere near as much as the Porsche, especially the brakes. So it's worth maybe a 1/3rd premium just for performance, add styling and "tradition" and maybe you get the full price differential.

Do you know that the first 996 and the last 993s were built along side one and other down the line in Stuttgart. While I might agree that that the 996 lacks a bit of the visceral feel of an older model, and I wish they had developed the older engine instead of the M96, but the 996 is still an awesome machine.

"Having owned my 996, and carefully inspecting every inch of it... i've been wondering.. I noticed the $95k MSRP window sticker that came with my 99 cab from the original owner... (which in 99, would equate to about $105k with inflation today..." the orginal list price sans options was $74k, you should base your comparison on that. to anyone, 20k worth of options on a merc or lexus would also make those cars seem like poor value.

you should sell the car and get your dream lexus. why you continue to own and stress about your car is unfathomable to me.

This exact topic has been debated a few times in the past. It boils down to simple economics -- supply and demand. There are enough buyers out there willing to pay the price. It has nothing to do with the actual cost to manufacture the car. Now, why are we willing to pay that price? That's where all kinds of tangible (performance, features, etc.) and intangible (brand value, "driving experience," etc.) factors come in. This has also been discussed frequently, and if you look around the board I think you'll see a variety of answers. For example, a poll last week showed "performance" as the most common reason people got this car, with "attract chicks" getting only a couple of votes. Or, you can call us a bunch of stupid idiots for overpaying for a car that's not worth it. For me, bottom line is, I paid for the car and haven't regretted it for an instant. If I'm a stupid idiot, I haven't figured it out yet. In the meantime, I'm enjoying every minute driving my car

Going back to the ferrari part that was mentions (yea its a bit off topic but....) When I was a lot younger my dad had a ferrari dubbed the 365 California Spider - only 13 ever made. It was a 12 cylinder 2+2 luxo super car. Im uncertain of current ferraris but back in 1966 when this car was built it was a beast. He bought it in the early 80s after it was sitting for a long time in florida, started it up, and drove it all the way across florida to a trailer that brought it back to chicago. After that he drove the car daily in every season except winter. The funny thing is the radiator was only functioning to a fraction of what it should be and the car by all rights should have over heated and burned out. But the car was over engineered and never burned up. After he sold it a gentleman sent the car back to italy where it was stripped to bare steal and brought back to exact factory specs. That owner now uses the car as his road trip car accross the country. BTW its worth at least 2 mil these days. Going back on topic a bit.... I just dont think many cars have the absolute quality and design that the classics had. Hell if the battery goes dead on the 996 you have all sorts of problems just getting the bonnet open to jump it. I love the 996, and it WILL be my next car. Because I still think style for style amongst all the other cars out there its still one of the last true classic designs. I dont even consider modern ferraris to be classic designs anymore. Just a lot of plastic and money. Just my .03cents hehe Jeff

Porsche has always developed it's cars and it's reputation on the track. From that base it creates street cars that vary very little from the ones on the track. This is different from most brands that optimize their cars for the street or for straight line acceleration bragging rights. I will never forget the post a couple of years ago where a new owner complained that for $70k a base 996 should have full leather and a mega stereo. I almost cried. I think one of the challenges that Porsche faces is that many of it's new customers really want a Lexus or a Merc with a Porsche name plate while most of it's old owners want a road racing car with street tires. I think the 996 does a pretty good job of serving both but not without some compromises. You have to look beyond your interior to figure out why your 996 costs as much as it does. The chassis you are sitting in is the same as the one that dominates the production class in Grand Am. So is your engine, transmission and suspension geometry. Your chassis took an overall win at the 24 hours of Daytona a couple of years ago. The engine was very different but many of the suspension components were similar. I could go on but I'm even boring myself. Bottom line, if you want a SL500, buy one. I sure it will be better at being a Merc than a Porsche will be. If, on the other hand, you want a track car with room for kids, buy a Porsche. Don't want to spend the money? Buy a Z06. Want 4WD? Buy an A4. There's something for everyone out there. But don't buy a Porsche because you want the name and then bitch because it's not a Lexus. Ok, I'm climbing down now. Jim

From JimB..... "There's something for everyone out there. But don't buy a Porsche because you want the name and then bitch because it's not a Lexus" I think this pretty much sums it up. Thanks for the quick wrap-up Jim. Bob.....please try to post something other than your disgust for Porsche. Maybe you should take a break from the board, go drive your car for a period of time, then come back with apologies for all. It is amazing that in your 60+ posts to date there has been nothing of substance, nothing of interest, and nothing of contribution. And poeple replying to your thread is not interest, it is just people trying to understand why you are so out there. Can't wait to hear back from you AFTER you have "driven" you Porsche.

LV, While I appreciate your untrue comments, I simply posted this message as a question as to where the cost comes into factor with this vehicle... as I am a new porsche owner, it's a fourth vehicle, and I have no real brand loyalty to the vehicle, and haven't been around them my whole life.. (I've been in many 80s and 90s models, but that's about it) yet am not a diehard porsche owner either ..(especially with what I've been through, which I believe I have a reason to vent still... <g>) Answers like the one by JimB help answer the question posed: "The chassis you are sitting in is the same as the one that dominates the production class in Grand Am. So is your engine, transmission and suspension geometry. Your chassis took an overall win at the 24 hours of Daytona a couple of years ago. The engine was very different but many of the suspension components were similar. I could go on but I'm even boring myself. " All I did was post a message asking a question, it wasn't meant in a negative condentation by any means.. I was simply trying to figure out if porsche made ridiculous profit from the new buyers, or there was something I was missing in this vehicle that I didn't know about, which commanded these prices that vehicles half the price now offer with the same exact amenities and stats.. You indicate none of my posts to date have been nothing of substance, nothing of interest, and nothing of contribution, and that is your opinion, and not everyones. My posts may have saved someone $15,000 on a new engine, while not relevant to you, may be relevant to others that don't have that type of money to throw around.. to base your opinion on my posts for the entire forum board is a bit biased I would have to say... even though i'm sure many agree with you, there are those that disagree as well.. to each their own...

I will soon be a proud owner. But I am probably a good example of why someone would buy this car now. I enjoy highly engineered cars. My current M5 is fun; fun; fun. Lot's of good power and handling engineering. Why a move up to Porsche? Because of the handling and the power. I LOVE TORQUE, HP and TIGHT handling. Grab and go. But why Porsche - because I can finally afford one. Took most of my life, though.

I just bought an 02 996 cab. Here are my 2cents: 1. P cars std equipment is pathetic, I thought BMW was std equipment was bad 2. P car options are wildly expensive, I bought used so I won't get raped 3. P car has the most driver involvement of any other high end cars. I had a TT RX7 and the 996 was more comfortable but about equally involved. 4. Styling-wise, SL500 is better than 996 and SL holds value better but I needed 4 seats. All other cars don't match 996 5. Japanese competitiors have better appointments like Nav & gadgets. However, you can add aftermarket into P car. You can't put a Porsche engine or suspension into a SC430 or G35. 6. Image is important. If I just wanted performance and reliability, I would have gotten a C6. It'll eat 996 and cost you 2/3 of price. However, I want my car to be an extension of myself. 7. I went with a later model 996 for better reliability - time will tell Summary: 1. If you want value & the p car experience, go with a used 996 (later the better as long as you can afford it). 2. If you think Japanese cars do the job well enough and you like the style of them, go for the lower priced cars and you'll get the new car warranty and experience for the same $$ as a used 996 3. Buy new 996 if u don't mind the depreciation bc you keep your car for a long time or you lease. If you are looking for value, P car isn't the right place. American car has one of the best value around. Porsche is raking it in, that's for sure. BTW, are Porsche engines hand assembled?

Bob, I think you are misinterpreting my point. What I am getting at is that you seem to have nothing to post that would be indicative of an enthusiast web forum. This is not a forum for the BBB or the FTC, etc, etc, etc, but rather a forum for Porsche enthusiasts. I think you get the majority of responses to your threads as a result of "why are you coming here to compain?" You are not preaching to the choir.....just preaching. And most find it disturbing that you come here with that kind of banter. This is in no way a personal attack, just specifically aimed at your threads and replies, etc. You tell me. Why did you buy a car for that you ask a question like this? Why do you still have a car that supposedly cost more in repairs than what you paid for it? Why do you ask questions that you can soon find the answer after driving the car for a period of time? I could go on. And as for for your question about the MSRP versus production cost you need to go back to school and learn some simple economics. Two things....(1)the market dictates the cost and (2)you have the ultimate right NOT to purchase. Why do people purchase certain products that cost about the same to produce as others? Why do poeple pay more for a home in one part of town versus another (same size and acerage)? Others have given the watch example as a good point. Here's another..... If you are married or have a significant other go ask her why would they purchase that Jimmy Choo or Manolo Blanik shoe at the price the sell for when she could get the same shoe of a not high end label for MUCH less. Trust me, I lose that argument everytime with the wife. Are you starting to understand?

Your first half of the statement is the answer for the question in the second part of your statement. (edit)

Actually a lot of it is the status symbol poseur status in the Pcar brand. That should change over time as Porsche continues to dilute their brand with SUVs and overproduction together with reductions in customer satisfaction (largely owing to build quality) experienced recently.

Bob, let's say these words together: C-A-P-I-T-A-L-I-S-M G-L-O-B-A-L M-A-R-K-E-T E-C-O-N-O-M-Y F-R-E-E-D-O-M O-F C-H-O-I-C-E If you truly do not grasp the answer to your primary question (as you've stated it), then you simply chose to purchase the wrong sort of car for what moves you as an individual. That combined w/ your unfortunate decision to buy a non-certified used Porsche from a non-Porsche dealer, which then needed some intensive therapy, is likely what is grating at you so much. Some people desire to establish an almost symbiotic relationship w/ their rides, some own cars as jewelry, some folks just have more $ than sense. Regardless of motivation however, most if not all would quickly shed themselves of the mental and fiscal liability of a vehicle that wasn't meeting their needs. You on the other hand, seem doggedly resolute in inviting flagellation from not only your P-car w/ the citrussy scent, but from the majority of forum members that have posted here. Here's another word for us to pronounce together: M-A-S-O-C-H-I-S-M You appear to be searching much too hard for a balm to soothe your injured inner-driver. Your personal decisions resulted in a less than desirable outcome, and now you are looking to do ego damage control by locating "pitty party" comrades. It's easier than all that; just move on . imho, fwiw...... Jeff

Wow, Jeff. How much per hour to lie on your couch? LOL

djantlive, "1. P cars std equipment is pathetic" So you were the guy that made we want to cry. What is wrong with the standard equipment? Just for the record, if you say you want more leather or a better stereo/nav I'm coming through the screen!

the porsche marque is no longer a rare vehicle... especially due to the boxster Porsche sells more 911s than Boxsters, so ostensibly the Boxster is the more 'rare' vehicle these days. As for why Porsche charges so much, quite simply: because they can. As you move up the totem pole (say, from base Boxster to Carrera GT), the profit margins increase. Porsche makes a more modest profit on the Boxster than the 996 Cab. I read in Fortune magazine that profit margin on the Turbo is about 50%. Profit margins on the $180,000 GT2 are massive! Buying and owning a Porsche is largely an emotional experience. You want rational transportation, buy a Toyota. You want a turbocharged flat-six with paint-to-sample exterior color, deviated stitching, leather wrapped dash, and painted gauge faces--buy a Porsche. : :

More 911s than the 986? Really? Where do you get your data from? I would be interested to know that. I could have sworn it was the other way around (it was talked about recently here).

Porsche release monthly sales figures. While Cayennes have been selling like hotcakes, 986 sales have fallen dramatically in the past two years. 996 sales have held pretty steady. I don't have the latest figures at my fingertips, but will see if I can find them.

Thanks Sean, I am looking as well.

One more thing, are you talking about ALL variants of the 996 (coupe, cab, targa, 4S, 4S cab, turbo, turboS, turbo cab, turboS cab, GT3, GT2, CGT)

In 2003: 27,789 units of the 911 were sold. 18,411 of the Boxster were sold. These number include platform variants. Porsche Annual Report - 2003

Best [[SIZE=7]SIZE=7]October in History; Sales up 14 Percent ATLANTA, Nov. 2 -- Porsche Cars North America, Inc. (PCNA), importer and distributor of Porsche sports cars and Cayenne SUVs in the United States and Canada, today announced U.S. retail sales totaled 3,021 vehicles, an increase of 14 percent and the best Oct. result in PCNA history. The majority of the increase resulted from sales of Porsche Cayenne SUVs. The line posted an increase of 64 percent compared to the same month last year. Year-to-date sales of 26,353 vehicles is an increase of 14 percent. "October exceeded expectations thanks to our customers' continued enthusiasm for the Porsche Cayenne and for our sports cars," said PCNA CEO Peter Schwarzenbauer. "After the successful launch of the new 911s, we can focus on the introduction of our new generation of Boxsters, which arrive at dealerships in January." In addition, dealers sold 372 Porsche Approved Certified Pre-Owned vehicles, compared to 259 last year. Year-to-date sales were 3,749 compared to 1,034 the previous year. Model Month to Date Year to Date Current Prior Current Prior Year Year Year Year Boxster 99 284 1705 3190 Boxster S 55 212 1608 2128 ALL BOXSTER 154 496 3313 5318 911 Carrera 24 185 1245 1332 911 Targa 7 43 126 375 Carrera Cabriolet 51 174 1107 1844 Carrera 4 Coupe 0 0 0 3 911 Turbo Coupe 14 76 228 1319 Carrera 4 S Coupe 43 106 789 1443 911 Turbo S Coupe 6 0 7 0 Carrera 4 Cabriolet 2 51 82 790 911 Turbo Cabriolet 61 103 1326 248 Carrera 4 S Cabriolet 64 127 1387 224 911 Turbo S Cabriolet 16 0 17 0 GT3 Coupe 35 30 525 201 GT2 Coupe 3 2 24 82 911 Carrera (997) 209 0 498 0 911 Carrera S (997) 235 0 698 0 ALL 911 770 897 8059 7861 Cayenne 496 0 4846 0 Cayenne S 1273 956 7703 7816 Cayenne Turbo 306 307 2287 2084 ALL CAYENNE 2075 1263 14836 9900 CARRERA GT 22 0 145 0 GRAND TOTALS 3021 2656 26353 23079 Certified Pre-Owned 372 259 3749 1034

Very interesting. Thanks for the post guys! Amazing sales numbers for the Pepper.

What I'm willing to pay depends upon age, if you have a predilection to leather, latex or 30 weight, and whether or not momma is lettin' you outta da house past midnight yet. In your case (you being a dude) the available services menu is quite abbreviated, and must I say, REM-inducing. Anyway, my couch is actually the back seat out of my 8th grade French teacher's customized '57 Nomad Wagon. There's certainly something achingly Freudian in the dark recesses of her cushions, but I choose not to delve too deeply. Ahhhh, sweet youth..... Jeff

Here is a few example of how poorly Pcar are equipped: 996 C2 comes with 17" rims Basic stereo is a joke HID is optional Come through the screen and get me now

i agree that the standard equipment list is a bit scant. i mean on a 60k+ car, at LEAST give us as much leather as possible, and xenons as STANDARD.

I'm pretty sure Xenons are standard on the 997.

I guess my view of the base Porsche is a little different than many 996 owners but I think it's a little more in line with the old P-car crowd. To me a 911 should be a base on which you can build any car you want. If you want a pimped out street cruiser, have at it. If you want a raw sports car with no options you should be able to buy that as well. I look at every 911 as a future race car. With that in mind, the base 996 should be extremely basic. No leather, minimal radio, no sunroof, etc. Very light, very fast on the track. That way we can all have what we want in the long run. Minimal base options allow all of us to have what we want. Remember, just because you think every car should have memory seats doesn't mean the rest of us do. As always, just my 2 cents worth. Jim

JimB - Excellent Post I guess I never really thought about it like that... Jeff

I agree with the notion that a company of any sorts, will charge what they can get away with. If sales were not impressive, prices would fall. Supply and demand my friend. Doesnt seem fair, or make it right, but thats the way it is. Say for instance, an employee is making too much money, and know's it, do you feel said employee would ask for a pay reduction, even though said company is paying the market rate?

Whenever an item has something more than utilitarianism as part of it's appeal, the price loses it's relationship to cost of production - it's that simple. The price is what the manufacturer believes he can get for the car. If he is wrong, the cars don't sell. If he is right, he makes big profits. As an owner, I understand this and make my personal decision based on what I am willing to pay. Would I like to pay less? Sure! Can I get what I want for less? - Obviously not because the fact is I don't want a Lexus, or vette, or any other sports car - it's also that simple. I think this happens with many items. Everyone is trying to differentiate themselves so that they can charge more for their products. The Porsche brand has done this very well. It's a simple fact. If you don't agree then you should buy something else. Do the research to understand the system and do what you believe is right for you - and don't whine about it afterwards. If you do whine, then you didn't do your homework before the purchase. From a business point of view Porsche has been a brilliantly operated company. It has managed (so far) to expand both it's traditional vehicle's sales and add a few pretty good selling "other" vehicles as well, while posting excellent bottom lines. Time will tell whether or not the strategy is sound over the long term. I think the company is like any other - companies can't stand still and survive. I believe if Porsche had stuck with it's production methods, a 911 would probably cost a lot more right now if they were even in business at all. And Bob, since you asked for opinions - my opinion is that you probably shouldn't own a Porsche because it has no value for you, so sell it and move on.

Jim you are as qualified a 911 historian as anyone....it seems to me that porsche is just making moves to satisfy the market in hopes of securing its longevity...if the market demands that 70k cars have leather seats and nav standard...then porsche better get with the program and put them in or sales may be jeapordized leading to its death! jim i am with you...in my mind....a 911 is raw, a bit cantancorous, and kind of no frills but....that porsche may not sell well today...especially when you consider cars like the z06 or the m3 (not as captivating all around....but at a much better pirce point....not so far away either) i guess what i am saying is let THEM have their FRILLS so WE can have our FUN!

I will have to admit one thing about Bob. He takes a likin and keeps comin back for more. I would have given up on this board after a couple of posts. But maybe there is a method to his madness. He keeps lighting fires and pours a little gasoline on them every once in a while to keep them burning.

I'm not old enough to be a historian! I'm just opinionated I guess. The problem with my "make the base more basic" theory is that Porsche will never reduce the price of any 911 below the $70k range. It's been there a long time. If that's the price for a bare bones car then a highly optioned one gets pretty spendy. Jim

You make a great point Jim. This is the only way Porsche can provide for strippers for the enthusiasts. That said, do they need to charge what they charge for options?

I am of the school of thought that almost under no circumstance would I buy a new car. I don't care if it is a Honda, Lexus, or Porsche....while there is something great about buying a brand new car, IMHO, unless you plan on driving it to its extinction, then you are paying too much money for a nice smelling, unused car. [I just don't have the $$ to go drop $90K+tax on a new supercar :-P] On the same token, depreciation for any exotic type car has to be expected, and Porsche is no different. The 996 that I have my company owns and is leased to me as part of a sales perk [I know I'm lucky]...when it came time to either buy out the lease at $36,000 [the car has 56,000 miles on it], I chose to go with the 993 instead, because it was always my favorite 911. I found a one-owner 1997 Carrera 2 Polar Silver/Black with 31,000 miles, new clutch/flywheel, fresh 30K service and no problems [at least thus far!!] and paid $37,500 for the car. This is all a matter of opinion too, as I'm sure some on this board would think I'm crazy for paying more for an older car--fact of the matter is that these cars are an emotional buy. They are not appreciating assets, and they are not the most practical cars out there. However, most on Rennlist would agree that regardless of what others think, we spent our money well. Since bob went the used route instead of new, the sticker shouldn't really matter...[my 993 sticker was $76,500 and the 996 sticker was $83,250]. I'm just happy that I get to be part of the Porsche experience, and regardless of whether that means buying a brand new one for $90K or a used 911 for $15K, as long as the buyer is happy and satisfied with his purchase, then there should be no issue IMO Just my $.02, but hey I could be wrong!

Everyone-- If you are a real Porsche enthusiast, you know why we buy these cars. For everyone else, you know the saying "you wanna play, you gottah pay". There are tons of cars out there, why buy a porsche if your hearts not in it.

JimB, I kept waiting for Porsche to pull an RS America type of thing on the 996. You know strip it down and charge more. I actually have always wondered why they haven't done that. With Porsche being so motivated by profit these days it would have seemed to make financial sense to take the base 996 and delete the leather, sound deadening material and radio stuff (oh and the cup holders ) and put flat panels on the doors with no power windows, seats, or mirrors and cheaper carpet and charge a premium. I guess they did that with the RS club sport but that car's price is way out of reach for most people. Unfortunately I agree with you...the majority of new Porsche buyers are looking to buy a Porsche but get a lexus and/or MB. Porsche realizes this and is attempting to cater to this. I just hope they continue to do the development of the chassis and suspension, etc. so that some of the soul of a Porsche is still there for the rest of us to enjoy.

Unless I'm mistaken the RS America cost $5k less than a fully equipped 964. But that was the old Porsche. The new Porsche would, as Brian suggests, delete content and increase price. The most egregious example of this is the 996 GT2--take a Turbo, subtract the rear seats and electronic gizmos, and charge an extra $50,000. As those Guinness commercials say: brilliant!

Bet- I believe Porsche have 996_RSclubsports but they are only available for the Euro market.

Bet, To me a 996 RSA was a no brainer however someone always points out that the 964 RSA didn't sell. It only became popular later. I think somewhere in the archives there is a thread where I describe the perfect 996 for me. It was an RSA clone. Jim

jim, i think you are partially right about what you are saying. i think the biggest problem is that porsche's buyers want all the comforts of a mercedes or lexus, but the feeling of driving a porsche. now true drivers know those two concepts are realistically at odds, but most porsche buyers aren't really like us. i like to see a sports car as a simplification of the concept of an automobile, not a complication of one. everything unnecessary should be gone so that there's less to break, less to wear out, a less cluttered environment, and more of a focus on driving. to most drivers, the "feeling" means acceleration, or the sound of the exhaust, not seeing how the suspension handles the transition on a sweet s curve. however, the stereo part i do argue. i think that they should either decide a stereo is not part of a sports car and ditch it (which i don't think is a good idea), or put a really good one in. there's no room for middle ground or mediocrity on a car so expensive and supposedly well engineered. my argument being that a good stereo and good speakers don't add size or weight to a car. i'm not talking about an awesome 12 speaker system with subs and creating a chassis with acoustics in mind. i'm saying put tweeters in the tops of the doors, mids in the bottoms, and a pair of 6x9's in the back. put a really good quality deck in, maybe even with a video monitor that interfaces with the ecu to display realtime info about the car (egt, a/f ratio, coolant temp...) when not showing song information. for a long time, us computer geeks have used programs to overlay critical system information on our desktops for easy and constant access. how nice would it be if a sports car manufacturer added a feature that the people who drive their cars as intended would really appreciate one big complaint i have is on the issue of innovation. i feel that porsche is just borrowing other luxury car makers' innovations, and only refining/polishing up the things they should be revolutionary with. i'd like to see porsche make some significant strides on engine efficiency/power, but i fear that the loss of their racing program has ended this. for example, there has been much talk in the industry of direct port fuel injection. i'm not sure if you're familiar with the idea, but it involves injecting fuel directly into the combustion chamber instead of the end of the intake manifold. this allows for significantly greater part throttle efficiency (you can run a/f ratios of 40:1!), while also ensuring that 100% of the fuel has the opportunity to combust. when spraying into the intake manifold, you're never really sure how much fuel stays on the walls of the head (before the valves) and how much gets into the cylinder and this new method would allow much more precise control (therefore being safer in regards to running lean, especially at higher rpms). if all their profit margins can't be used for a factory racing team, why not take a good concept that needs some refinement and run with it? alas, porsche seems to be master tuners but with relatively little innovation. it will probably be the japanese that put this idea into mass production because that area of the world seems to be where the really good new ideas come from