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YOUR RESEARCH996 oversteer corrections at Thunderbolt.
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Run wet line until the cup cars
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But once I know the corners are slippy at the apex, I run the wet line until the cup cars clean up a dry line
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Suggestion · Original poster
Actually, slip angle changes depending on many factors, "optimal" slip angle is smaller on street tires.
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Suggestion
While fun and all I have found that by changing where to apply the gas and brakes along with a better line its safer and faster.
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Suggestion · Original poster
Subsequently, advanced/instructor run groups were almost empty and I got hours with the track mostly to myself.
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Suggestion
Even on a strange track you can simply run a late (super late) apex to have a more perpendicular line across the slick spots.
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I do, yes. The steering inputs in that video are pretty typical of my driving. Often I was drifting with a narrow angle from the apex on out, unfortunately the video I have doesn't capture the minor/longer corrections, so these short clips are all I posted.
Ahmet, there shouldn't have been any reason to be constantly "drifting". Smoother input and a better line (rain line) would have cleared that right up.
did the popcorn ever finish.... "wish we had SMELL-O-VISION"
hey, and make sure to remove the armband next time they "let you out"
I agree with Dell, since my first days out were almost drifting the entire track. While fun and all I have found that by changing where to apply the gas and brakes along with a better line its safer and faster.
I am not trying to be mean but mearly offer an opinion on car position to help correct the oversteer. BTW I love my new set up - THANKS!!!
Although I hate to admit it, Ahmet is a pretty quick driver and I feel that usually the degree to which he 'overdrives' the car is acceptable for street tires. With r-comps or slicks the sharper decrease in traction beyond optimal slip angle rewards a driver that stays at or just below the optimal slip angle. Street tires are more forgiving I feel. I say this regarding his driving in the dry; not sure if I've ridden with you in the wet actually...
But anyways yes most of the 'moments' in the video show more than slight steering corrections. The 1:00 mark looks okay. In the end this is just a DE so who really cares. The goal is to have fun and not wreck your car.
Why would you hate to admit it?
And by the way, there is no such thing as overdriving based on tires. Overdriving is just that, overdriving. You drive the car the SAME way no matter what tires are on the car. Slip angle changes and thus your limit changes. However, your style never changes.
It's not that street tires are more forgiving, they just have a larger window of breakaway and usually tell you as much.
And yes, you should care in a DE environment. Sure you are there to have fun, but remember, the E in DE is for education. As an instructor, my comments to Ahmet would have been hand position and (as I already pointed out) a better line/speed.
By the way Dan, you have a lot to learn about tires. The reward is NOT for driving just below the slip angle. The reward is for actually being in the slip angle. Below that you are NOT generating max grip. Most amateurs confuse sliding with slip angle. Once you exceed the slip angle you start to lose grip but only progressively. It's talent that allows you to reel it in properly and maximize grip as much as possible. Study some friction circles and you will understand what I am talking about.
LOL @ that... like I said... LOOKS FUN!!
and I have spent a lot of time in that (as in Seattle we get some rain) - agreed too we are not pros, but learning, and for learning you have to listen to people like Dell who have raced and are instructors
+1.
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Did you have your traction control turned off? Was it slightly wet, or very rainy? It seems like you were driving the dry line, which I sometimes do if it is just drizzling. But once I know the corners are slippy at the apex, I run the wet line until the cup cars clean up a dry line
Even on a strange track you can simply run a late (super late) apex to have a more perpendicular line across the slick spots.
And shuffle steering is a big no-no down here. If the car started spinning when you had your hands in the "shuffled" position, how would you know where straight-on was to properly correct? I instruct the full crossover-X rather than a shuffle steer as there are very few (if any) corners that require more than 180 degrees of lock.
-td
It was mostly wet, partially drying track, but always w/some precipitation. Subsequently, advanced/instructor run groups were almost empty and I got hours with the track mostly to myself. I did do a few laps connecting compound drifts, which I really enjoyed also. Smaller drift angles as I said earlier, are not easily conveyed by video, I only uploaded the more severe ones/requiring more abrupt correction. The idea is even when the car needed larger steering inputs, it did not detract from the line, nor backing off the throttle much. Anyway, I may upload a few complete laps later.
I'm open to input from any of you that I can meet w/in person, but the video was more for amusement. I'm of the thought that a small slip angle is required to go fast, and if you never have to open the wheel, you're not pushing very hard.
Dell I am not offended in the least and I do not want to offend you either. I really enjoy having discussions/arguments on this topic.
I would say I am fairly competent with driving phsyics; putting it into practice is the real challenge. I am aware of tire slip angle. I was simply saying that the available traction envelope with regards to tire slip angle is much wider on street tires than r-comps, and the traction drop-off is less steep. Because of this going beyond OPTIMAL slip angle on a street tire will provide more traction than r-comps. Because of this, 'overdriving' or going beyond this optimal slip angle on street tires - ie moderate understeer or oversteering - will scrub off less speed than on r-comps. Does that make sense?
Ahmet, I'm not quite sure you understand what a slip angle is. Slip angle is not what makes you go fast. The slip angle is the characteristic of the tire under cornering load and is unique based on it's type, compound, etc.. Staying in (and just PAST) that slip angle is optimal to go fast. It's not the size but rather the time you stay within it while cornering. That's what makes you fast.
Further, not sure I follow what you are trying to get at with not having to open the wheel and not pushing hard. If you are at max grip under corning and hit your apex properly you will actually REDUCE the need to open the wheel.
Dan, actually the slip angle is SMALLER on street tires. You really need to read up on slip angle to get a better understanding.
And don't worry, I'm not offended
Just trying to educate.
Dell I am aware of this too , but do you or do you not agree that say understeering on exit will scrub off more speed/time on r-comps than street tires. This is just something I have noticed and feel like it is supported by what we are both getting at.
Aware that you need to read up on this?
As far as the understeer issue, it depends on the situation. But oversteer should be faster if controlled. For example, trailbraking.
Actually, slip angle changes depending on many factors, "optimal" slip angle is smaller on street tires.
During a full opposite lock slide for example, it'll be rather high for the rear tires regardless of compound.
This is the sort of thing I'd like to avoid wasting time on, by having you ride in my car or let me ride in yours. You go to VIR often enough don't you?
Or on corner exit...
I don't consider this wasting time. If you do, then we aren't going to get along very well. You are using terminology that is nothing other than synonymous. Optimal slip angle and just regular ole slip angle is the same thing. The "optimal" slip angle of the tire IS the slip angle of the tire. Staying inside the slip angle of tire is optimal. Make sense?
Yes, I am usually at VIR quite often. However, not in the coming months as I have another baby on the way. In fact, I had to cancel for this weeks race at VIR.
But if we are at VIR at the same time (or any track) and I have time I'd be happy to jump in the car with you.
I'm a little confused. Are you referring to
yaw
when you say
slip
? You really shouldn't have any oversteer with a small slip angle, since you need some slip angle to turn the car anyway.
You would need to countersteer when you exceed the traction limits of the rear tires first and have excessive yaw angle (oversteer) - but you will still have some slip angle - just the rear slip angle will probably be greater than the front. However, you can also exceed the traction limits of the front tires first (aka understeer) [again you will still have some slip angle, just the front will probably be greater than the rear]. Both situations illustrate exceeding the tires limit and that you are "pushing hard," although the method for correction is typically different.
-td
Hey, Dell. Just wondering what books you have found helpful. I've got the Going Faster book by Carl Lopez, which is very helpful. Anything else that you recommend?
I know that nothing really beats getting instruction, but I am kind of tuition challenged for the time being.
The best book series I have read is Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets. What I have found is that while you are correct, nothing beats good instruction, the book allows you to have in your mind what you want to translate on the track. There are several sections that I like to read before a race weekend. Really gets me in the right "mind set".
Hey Ahmet, thanks for sharing the video. It's hard to tell with the video, but it looks like the track is especially slippery. I've never driven a track in the rain, but it looks like you kept it straight.
Obviously we're driving street cars so there are some limits....
