996, good price?

I'm trying to get a feel for real world 996 prices. I just purchased one (which I will be returning due to a ppi issue), and want to know if I was offered a good price. 1999 carrera, 25k miles, full black leather, sport wheels, gemballa tail and aeroskirt, manual, better stereo. Body is a 9.9/10 - one scratch on hood, some stone chips. Interior perfect condition, but overall poor quality by design (my opinion) PPI showed: oil leak from cylinder head on left small radiator leak r front sunroof occasionally jams intermittent wiper occasionally malfunctions and some other small issues. No old record available. Perks: New tires, new brakes, perfect body. Major issues - car fax shows 2 "minor" accidents - both within 3000 miles of new. I would presume this had to be fixed at a porsche service center as the car was basically new. Carfax states car hit a sign post, and later was rear ended. Bluebook/edmunds trade in value 39-40k retail 44-46k? Was to buy the car for 41k, then after carfax report came in dealer dropped price to 38k. I was allowed to get the ppi, and if not satisfactory, I could return the car within 1 week, and this is what I plan to do. The dealer is Luxury Motors in chicago/downers grove. They say they will be glad to take the car back...I hope that is the case, and I do have this guarantee in writting. My qestion is: Knowing all of the above, what would a good price be for this car?

bpu699 said Sorry to rant, but I'm quite dissapointed. I guess it's time for the bmw m3... you just posted you were done? i thought you made up your mind?

Well, heres the thing. Part of me still wants a 911 (a big part of me ). It would probable be a 993 though. The interior quality of the 996 was very dissappointing. I will test drive the m3, just to see how I like it. I guess I'm trying to figure out a couple of things: 1) Was I offered a good price? If so, I would consider looking at 993's from the same dealership. 2) Are cars really selling for that much under kelly blook book? I am shocked. I though I got a good deal, but then I read on here that folks are getting 996 for even less, in better condition. 3) I'm also trying to get a feel for how much wiggle room I have in negotiating the price of these cars. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

I looked at several 996's that these guys had... they seem to be fairly straight shooters but I also got the impression (at least with their later model p-cars) that they are picking these things up at wholesale auction.. so who knows what the history of the car will be. The prices seem to be fair... I never got into negotiating with them so I don't know if their prices were negotiable or not.... In the end I ended up getting a Silver '99 C4 in great shape with 29k miles for $45k from Concours here in Milwaukee. (they were asking $50k). Although this is not a "killer" deal, the car has some good options on it, was in great shape, had full records and a clear carfax (was traded in by a friend of the dealer's owner). This is also the 4th car I've bought from this dealership so they treat me well when I need loaners, etc. So far the car's been a gem - already have 4k miles on it (drove over to Toronto and back) - got it up to 170mph on the 403 between Burlington and Woodstock !!!! trev

Thanks for the reply, mastermind. The folks at luxury motors seem nice enough, though I will see what happens in the end. I called and let them know I will be returning the car, and they said that was fine. I guess I am a bit of a pessimist at heart (a realist, maybe), and will see what happens. Has anyone else ever purchased a used car, been allowed to get a ppi, and return it later if it wasn't satisfactory? Did you get hit with any fees? Usually when buying from a private party its easy to get a ppi - I just have the owner drive it to the shop, and they call me. It seems to be more difficult getting a ppi when buying from a private dealer. In fact, most dealers I spoke to declined a ppi as impractical (napleton porsche, autobarn, etc). Thanx to all, further input appreciated.

I have done business with luxury motors and just bought a '99C4 from napelton last Friday. I am surprised LM is letting you return the car. I do not want to bash anyone here, but if you wish to hear of my experience at either dealers send me a pm.

i wouldnt pay more than $33k for that car

"Has anyone else ever purchased a used car, been allowed to get a ppi, and return it later if it wasn't satisfactory?" this is a pretty interesting situation. ppi stands for PRE purchase inspection. someone tell you it stood for POST? :-) "1) Was I offered a good price? If so, I would consider looking at 993's from the same dealership." with those mechanicals and paintwork on both the front and rear of the car, i'd pass for sure anywhere near that price. further, any half arsed car hack can tell if a car has paintwork and if you asked them and they said "uh, i don't know", then i probably wouldn't do biz with them at any price. if you didn't bother to ask or have an independent porsche body shop inspect it, then you're gonna get burned one of these days. fwiw, "dealer trade in" value is well above that of a car with 2 accidents and the mechanical situation of this one. this probably was a lease termination that went thru auction or was traded to this dealer. the market is so soft in 996s, there is little $ reason not to just look for someone's garage queen and buy direct from the owner of it.

Bought an M3 at this place in May. Smooth operation, but seemed a bit "slick" if you know what I mean. With the kind of cars they are used to dealing, it seemed like they didn't care too much about an M3, and consequently, woudln't move too much on the price. Return it, and ask for a better deal on a 00 or 01 car in order to make things right.

Keep the input coming... Yes, I realize ppi's are done before purchase. But, that is DARN difficult to do if purchasing from a dealer. 1) You have to schedule to get a ppi with an outside mechanic. 2) Someone has to get the car to the other dealer at the right time - Most dealers won't drive it over, nor will they just give you the car for a day or 2 without purchasing it. Legal liability issues prevail. I would love to hear how some of you get a ppi from DEALERS, especially in the midwest. To the folks with input on luxury motors, please email me at [email removed] . They apparently do have a good BBB rating - this I researched. I have also tried napleton porsche but haven't had luck - their prices are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the other dealers in town, and they refuse to budge on the price. In regards to the price issue, I would love other folks input. It seems like 996's are a dime a dozen in the southwest, but more expensive in the midwest. True or not? One thing about Luxury Motors - their pricing is a little deceptive. The window pricing is MUCH higher than their internet prices. I thought I got a good deal based on their window asking price, but was only a little below their internet asking price.

bpu, why do u say ppi's cant be done at porsche dealers? imo ppi should be done only at dealers, u need the comp to read out all the history of the car.

"bpu, why do u say ppi's cant be done at porsche dealers? imo ppi should be done only at dealers, u need the comp to read out all the history of the car." yep, but it might not be a great idea to use the dealer from whom you are buying. the whole idea is to get an independent ppi. then again, if there are problems down the road resulting from stuff that should have obviously been found in the ppi (but was not), it might be easier legally to get restitution if the selling dealer was also the ppi dealer.

Why this desire to go through a dealer? All you have to do is pick up a copy of Excellence or Porsche Panorama and see how many 996's are for sale by private owners., many with low mileage and lots of options. You might also check the website of your local Porsche club where I'm sure cars are listed for sale. You'll always get a better deal privately than thru a dealer.

Being a member of the Porsche Club, I get Panorama but can you tell me more about Excellence magazine. I've seen it mentioned before on Rennlist but I don't know much about it. Is it strictly a Porsche magazine. Who publishes it? Would you recommend it? Thanks, Charlie

Excellence is published by Ross Publications that puts out a number of auto magazines devoted to particular makes--Bimmer for BMW and Forza for Ferrari. Excellence is just about Porsches and I would recommend it. You can pick it up at any Barnes & Noble. There's a classified section in the back where readers advertise cars for sale. I bought a 1963 356B that I saw in the classifieds.

Ok, I'm still confused as to how all of you get PPI's. Let's say you see a car you like at an independent dealer. How do you get an inspection AT ANOTHER INDEPENDENT DEALER???? Problems I have run in to: 1) No one will let me just TAKE the car over to another dealer, BEFORE purchasing it. 2) I have called independent mechanics for PPI's - they DON'T want to go to the selling delaer to evaluate the car. Rather, they want it brought to them. See problem #1. 3) Let's say you find a good-hearted dealer who just happens to say -" Yeah, just take my 50,000$ car to have it inspected, and just bring it back when you get a chance....(yeah, right). " And the car motor explodes/implodes/grenades on the way to the inspector. Who's car is it now??? The dealer has no way to know you didn't borrow the car and beat on it. So the question remains, how are you guys getting PPI's at a dealer OTHER THAN THE ONE selling the car?! I have yet to see this, and I have tried several times. Getting PPI's from private parties is easy.

You make the deal for the car, give a refundable deposit and make the purchase contingent on the dealer delivering the car to your independent for the prepurchase inspection. If they want the sale, and the car is straight, they will take the trouble to have their lot boy run it over there and pick it up again. If they won't ... there's an issue. If it's a Porsche dealer, and they won't go for the PPI, get a 7-day warranty in writing to repair any non-wear issues found by your independent inspection, or they will take the car back. Vic 99 C2 cab

Vjd3, thanks for your input. But that is EXACTLY what I did. I purchased the car, got a letter in writing that I can return it within 7 days if the inspection is not satisfactory. I get the impression from other folks here that they do it differently . As to the first option you mentioned, I have never seen a dealer willing to do this. Here in the midwest you are talking about a 1 hour drive each way to the porsche center,2-3 hours to wait for inspection, then the actual inspection time. Perhaps in the west and east there are more available places to have a p car examined.

Thanks, I'll pick up a copy. Charlie

ProV1 said "i wouldnt pay more than $33k for that car"... Why don't you just say $25k , $18k, etc. You can't find a bad - let alone good 996 for much under $40k...Checking the LA Times Classifieds, it is rare to see a '99 under $45k, and we're talking cars with over 50,000 miles in many cases. ProV1's remark in an earlier post was "I'm a longtime BMW owner......I'm clueless about Porsches"... apparently correct. I'm tired of seeing the resale value of the 996 bashed here from time to time. In checking ads across the country, the listed prices are consistently in the high forties. Dealers here in Las Vegas list $50k-$54k, but that's typical dealer optimism.

LA is NOT the place to look for good much less decent deals on new or used p-cars. if you are not geographically challenged, look around and you'll blow away LA prices. Besides, we're talking about a car that's been in two seperate accidents and has mechanical issues.

jeffkim: u accuse me of lowballing used 996 prices and your basis of argument is LA Times classifieds? get real buddy. fact is there are tons of used 996s out there and new 996s can be had for $12-14k off MSRP. u can be in your denial mode but go to any high end auto auctions, ebay, and find out how much your dealer is paying for trade in 996s. the car OP descibes has no history avail., no info from original owners, and was in 2 accidents, and has numerous mech issues. If you wanna pay over 45k for this 99 996, go right ahead, more power to you. oh, just wait and see how much 996 prices will drop next yr when 997 arrives

Here are actual wholesale results from the Manheim Auto auction. It is unlikely that a consumer could buy a reasonable condition 25k mile car for $33k as currently wholesale value based on these actual transactions is $34k with avg. miles of 43K. Market Analysis NOV 27, 2003 Sept. Aug. May Nov. 2002 Avg Price $34,165 $35,607 $35,452 $37,490 $39,914 Avg Miles 43,085 41,096 37,291 38,407 32,880 Projected Values Nov. 2003 Dec. 2003 Nov. 2004 Condition Above Avg Below Avg Avg Wholesale $36,680 $34,080 $31,480 $33,400 $29,900 Retail $40,080 $37,280 $34,480 $36,600 $32,800 99,PORSCHE,911 CARRERA 2,COUPE

"It is unlikely that a consumer could buy a reasonable condition 25k mile car for $33k as currently wholesale value based on these actual transactions is $34k with avg. miles of 43K." doesn't the car in question have paintwork front and rear? "Major issues - car fax shows 2 "minor" accidents - both within 3000 miles of new. I would presume this had to be fixed at a porsche service center as the car was basically new. Carfax states car hit a sign post, and later was rear ended." i used to go to these dealer auctions (one of the largest in the world is in Orlando every Tuesday - https://www.manheim.com/guests/aucti...e.mpl?aid=FAAO ) and i can tell you a 911 with multiple accidents is no where remotely close to "reasonable condition" and would be SLAMMED at manheim.

The car is described in good condition. The dealer has already lowered the price to $38k. Based on prices for cars with 18k more miles, I doubt the car could be purchased for $33k. That's my point.

come on bruce, if you are in the car biz you know good and well that ANY paintwork - much less on both the front and rear - of any 911 is going to KILL it at auction - as it should. i can see it now, a guy walks into your dealership with a car with paintwork (from two seperate accidents) and says "Body is a 9.9/10 - one scratch on hood, some stone chips, so it's in good condition". i'm sure he'd get the same price as he would on a non-accident car. all high line cars with paintwork are gonna get crushed at manheim if the bidder has more then 5 minutes of experience in the car biz. i'm not arguing FOR $33k either, but i think using auction prices for cars we should assume don't have (multiple) paint work by their sales price as a metric for one that does, is not useful.

Just an update guys. I returned the car WITH NO PROBLEM at luxury motors. They were gracious and apologized for the car, and of course they are sending it back to auction to sell again . My findings in the midwest are that 996 are selling for 39-43k. I have found that the dealers are selling them for MUCH less than private individuals. It seems that the dealers really want to clear the lots before the winter, and must sell. As one put it, "I need space for the land rovers and mercedes." Private parties are refusing to budge on price, often asking FULL retail, and referring to edmunds or blue book for prices....

Just for comparison here is what I recently purchased (in Aug 03) '00 996 C2, black/black, 6sp, 25K miles, still under warranty through 6/04 and 50K, absolutely excellent condition. It has suede headliner, leather, dual power/heated seats, 3 spoke steering, CD changer, hifi, and some aluminum trim. I paid $43K for it. It was listed at $44.8K as a Buy It Now. I found it on Ebay in Houston (I'm in Austin), drove out, got an independant PPI (which it passed) and bought it right there. Totally painless. I'd recommend NXcess Auto in Houston as they typically sell a LOT of 996s at some very good deals. I looked at 3 in Houston and PPI'd the best one. IMO, I'm with Ben. I wouldn't spend $35K on that car with all its issues. I can't believe that a dealer won't allow an independant PPI. My first thought is, "What are they trying to hide?" and I would accuse them of that. If they won't allow a 3rd party inspection, I'd run from both the car and the dealer. IMO, the market determines the price of the car. You can't prop up the value of your own car by arguing that such and such a car should go for more. Its worth what someone else *will* pay, not what you *would* pay. And from what I've seen (having searched all over for the last few months) the retail value of a mint 99 should be $38-42K. One with "issues" should be worth less. -Dave '00 996C2 '97 M3 '00 A4 '89 M3

Hey BPU699 I am curious if Luxury Motors has the returned car up for sale on its website? Can you check and let us know?

I don't see it on the site...they said they would take it back to auction... If it makes a difference, the car did have the "aerokit", which I now see sells for 7000$ before paint and installation. Honestly, I now miss the car. If they still had it, and would sell it for 34k$, I would buy it back.... The car looked drop-dead-gorgeous....