almost everything about porsche pisses me off

Is it possible to not be pissed at Porsche? After 5 months of ownership, i can't find one thing about porsche that isn't crappy...well, except the performance of their cars. I got a new Pirelli P-zero Assymetrico 295/30/18 from my dealership. Their price quoted to me was $305. Now...I see a sticker on the tire that they bought it from Tire Rack. Well, I can go to Tire Rack myself and buy the same dang tire for $265. Then, they want $24 for a piece of aluminum they call an oil filter wrench. Loren says it should be $7 at the dealer. Well, not the dealers here in Florida. Okay, I apologize for being so ranting, but I don't think anyone would have a decent argument that doesn't agree that Porsche is constantly taking advantage of us. I'll just never expect getting my moneys worth cause that won't happen...besides, why should I expect them to act like they appreciate my business. I mean, it's only because of people like us that their job even exists.

im still miffed that parts like the MAS goes went out on my 80k+ car at 22k. I have a lexus with 180k miles on it and its MAS never went out and even if it did lexus wouldn't charge me 500+ to fix it!!!!!!. I feel your pain kwc4s. Hopefully, with the cayenne out porsche will start paying more attention to their service departments and the durability of their parts. If they keep gouching soccer moms and dads who haul their kids in their cayennes for simple services soon the novelty of a porsche suv will wears out. Those people will go back to bimmer, lexus and benz and porsche will have f---ed up big with the Cayenne and will loose big. I doubt they will let that happen. Hopefully with the influx of new cash to the dealerships, they will start to act more like a luxury car dealership instead of the local goodyear service center. Bob

bob, funny you mentioned goodyear. everytime i go to porsche i come home with tires that are goopy and dirty and still have the adhesive stuck on the inside of the wheels from the previous balance job. i went to goodyear and they almost spit shined my wheels. they spent so much time trying to clean my tires that i realized right then and there, my porsche service department (Orlando) doesn't give a crap about me.

Some dealerships are better than others when it comes to prices. I usually price my parts at three dealerships, and without a doubt the local dealership is always the most expensive. Not talking a few bucks here either. As far as tires go, I know better than to purchase my tires at the dealership. They charge extra for the convienence.

WHY are you buying tires from the dealership?

That's right, think man, think. They're not called stealers for nothing and you should blame more them than Porsche itself.

ChitownBOB - I had a C2 and never had my MAS go off. I had a friend though who bought a new Lexus, literally drove it off the lot, and the motor died. Took him 3 weeks of "open pit" promises before he got a whole new car. So in a nutshell your arguement means nothing. People will have horror stories about EVERY manufacturer. I don't think anyone can escape them. Doesn't mean that Porsche sucks, nor does Lexus suck, but they all have similar problems.

"my porsche service department (Orlando) doesn't give a crap about me." and the service dept there is considerably better than the sales dept. their nickname used to be Contemptuous back when they were Contemporary. now they are owned by autonation and are even worse. don't ya just love the cheeseball fees on your sales order ala the autonation pontiac dealerships. good rule of thumb, don't buy anything you don't need NOW from them.

"ChitownBOB - I had a C2 and never had my MAS go off. I had a friend though who bought a new Lexus, literally drove it off the lot, and the motor died. Took him 3 weeks of "open pit" promises before he got a whole new car. So in a nutshell your arguement means nothing." actually it does. lexus' holds the #1 spot (for many years running) in this quality dept. just read the JD Powers reports. oh, and NO other car maker has service that is 3/4 as good as lexus. not only that, you very rarely ever even need it.

I bought my last set of tires from my Porsche dealer. And the price? Exact same price I would get from TireRack. They charge $25/wheel for mount/balance, took care of it in just an hour or two, and if there was any damage, they were responsible. Some dealers get it, some dealers don't. My dealer would rather serve the customer, regardless of the work order, than pass them along to someone else. It's the dealer system that's screwed, and PCNA seems to be working on it. Find another dealer.

Don't buy tires from the dealer. Also don't buy batteries. I even shop around for parts. My local Porsche dealership wanted to charge me double of what I paid for the two oil filters to do an oil change. I ordered them through a dealership and it was half the cost with shipping included. Same thing happened with rotors and pads. Shop around and negotiate with your dealer such items. In my experience this is the case with every car dealership (or said earilier "stealership"). Now problems with the car itself....that is a different complaint and may be justified.

It's the dealer. My local dealer doen't get it either and what's funny about it is, there's no money in this town. I could see if they were in LA or something. The only thing I use my dealer for is items covered by warranty or this I can't get anyway else. When I had my RoW M030 installed recently I brought it to the dealer already installed and just had them align it on their "special" Porsche alignment machine - charge $400.00.

actually, i didn't have to buy the tire, they warranted it out, but initially they quoted me a price.

Some perspective from a new owner: Come on guys, you would expect a small business (which is what a dealership is) that has particular expertise to charge a fee on top of their cost of tires, etc. You might not think that's fair, but their time costs money just like yours does. Larger volume dealerships in big cities can afford a little less gross margin, of course. If you don't want to pay the margin, then go to tirerack. But you can't compare a Lexus to a Porsche. There are so many things wrong with that. One is engineered solely for comfort, convenience, and reliability. The other primarily for performance and feel. Lexus dealers (at least around here) are very high volume. Most Porsche dealerships are very low volume. Toyota is a massive car company that spreads it's R/D costs over an enormous number of cars. Versus little independent (sort of ) Porsche. So obviously you would expect better reliability from Lexus. But most importantly, guys, have you driven your car lately? I mean, come on! I've owned a lot of great cars, but the feel and handling and power delivery and precision and engineering aesthetic is unmatched. Or alternatively, have you driven a lexus lately? I'd rather ride the bus. So cheer up, go hit a few glorious apexes, and tell me again how much you hate Porsche!

Nova...exactly, i love my porsche, i hate how for granted we are taken by so many dealerships and the corporation as a whole. But, I'm sorry, I have to expect better quality from a $90K car than my $15K Honda. Spread out or not, volume or not, quality should be far superior in a Porsche. Why is quality so high in Japanese cars, because the Japanese knew that was a way to win so much of the market. Why did American quality come way up after Japan took so much of the market, because they had to to compete...that's why I'm a die-hard American that will never own an American car. They don't deserve my respect and support. Okay, enough of my soap box. I appreciate and enjoy everyone's perspective. This forum is a great place and I feel respect here....well, as long as I stay out of the Racing forum....we won't talk about that...

I think it is wrong to accept subpar quality regardless of performance and history of a car. If you simply look at the various posts aroudn here, we see the early 996's had massive engine failures which lead to trans failures. The MAS is a problem on many 996's as well as well as various other problems. I love driving my 996 and it is a great car. But unfortunately, it doesn't do much good when sitting in the mechanics bay for days and weeks on end. I've owned 4 Lexuses since the brand first came out and each car is of the highest quality. I've never had to question whether it would start up or if whether I would hear a strange, funny noise or smell something bad. Every so often something does go wrong as they are all machines. But things more things go wrong in the 996 and cost more to fix than other high line cars. Yes Toyota is a big company, but that should mean that less attention is paid to the details. The 996 is a supposedly hand built car. Hand built = attention to detail. RR, I'm a member of the clublexus forum and trust me, there are far fewer complaints about problems then there are here. And take this into accout, there are a hell of a lot more lexus out there but yet fewer reported problems. Your friend's lexus's engine dying is the first I've heard of about lexus. But look around this forum and we got oil leaks, blown gaskets and so forth. Why accept subpar construction and then after sale service. I love p-cars as much as you all but I demand more for my money, esp when I drop almost $90K on a car. So in actuality my arguement does make sense. Bob

There is no denying the truth of all the above points. But, Porsche is able to claim the highest profit margin of any manufacturer because it does overcharge. It's able to overcharge because there is no true competitor. Maybe the next NSX, the Ford GT, or a future Aston will change that. For now, all of us paid more than we should because what we want isn't available for less. AS

Actually the 996 was Porsche's first foray into automation. Porsche consulted with, I think Toyota, to educate them on how to make a high production, high-end car. The problems that Porsche has had with the 996 is evidence of the learing curve they faced. Something like 57 robots and 3 people per car, where it was 3 robots to 57 people for the 993 build. I think Porsche's quality will improve, especially now that they have a few more models under their belt. Cant wait to see the next 911 redesign!

Actually, in any engineering or manufacturing project, the larger and more automated the process is, and the bigger the overall budget is, the more likely you can achieve a solid, repeatable QA process. So I still think Toyota is at a major advantage here. Toyota could spend a half a billion on a QA process and it would be a drop in the bucket for them. Or when Lexus designs a car, they can grab proven parts from a Camry and it's already tested and cheap for them. So they can focus their money and energy on other parts. It's all about scale. The space shuttle is hand built by some of the most talented engineers and technicians in the world. But you know what, it's not as reliable as a Lexus. And no amount of money ever could make it like a Lexus. Also, engineering is all about trade-offs. I believe that if you tried to build a car with such great performance AND Lexus type quality, you would be well past the $70-$120k that we all paid. And that's assuming it were even possible.

"The space shuttle is hand built by some of the most talented engineers and technicians in the world. But you know what, it's not as reliable as a Lexus. And no amount of money ever could make it like a Lexus." The space shuttle is meant to fly in SPACE and space travel still relatively in its infancy. It doesn't travel down the street. Im sure the early cars in the eary 1900's had just as many problems. Anyway, comparing space travel to a morning drive to work is ridiculous. We are in 2003 now. I just expect higher quality. I agree with the idea that the newer models will probably be better in quality because PAG is making more money now with the Cayenne. I just can't accept the idea that I have to accept subpar quality for performance. In the last 6 months, my car has been in the shop for a total of one month which sucks. If we demand more, I am sure that PAG will repond. But like a previous post said, there are not many competitors to the 996 so there is no need to improve quality because suckers like us will keep buying their cars. Many will probably disagree with this last comment but a Honda/Toyota running is better than a 996 in the shop for repairs. I just wanna go 6 months without having to fix a pump, sensor and so forth!!!!!!!! Oh well. I bitch but I still refuse to sell it. Bob

in the first year and a half i had my 996, it was in the shop for two and a half months. and the service technicians treated me like i was an idiot. thankfully everything was under warranty! i've had a couple of things that didn't fall under warranty, and the dealer's quotes were always way above the prices i could find on the internet. case in point: i just replaced my brake pads at about 30K miles. the dealer wanted $350 for the front pads and $150 for the rears. this doesn't include labor. i bought the same pads from a company in california for $270 for both sets and replaced them myself. basically my recommendation is to not buy ANYTHING AT ALL from a dealer, even if you don't feel comfortable doing the work yourself. i suggest buying the parts yourself and having a dealer do the labor in that case. they'll be happy to at least get the money for labor! but even saying all this i still have my 996 and i don't want to sell it! porsches are incredibly fun to drive and i'll keep buying them for as long as i live.

Chris --- I think that Porsche only has one component installation robot on the 986/996 assembly line, which is used for windscreen installations. Pretty fun to watch. Lots of material handling/positioning machinery, and welding and other pre-assembly activities utilize robotics extensively. Still "hand-built" though! Nova --- I think that your analogy is the most relevant, but not for the reason that it was posted. The Space Shuttle is the epitomy of high performance engineering and operation in it's application (or any application for that matter), but it has a narrowly targeted mission and by definition will never be everything to everyone. I suppose that the Lexus of high speed transportation would be a bullet train; broader design spectrum and slightly lower maintenance/operational hours ratio than the Shuttle(sarcasm). With a Porsche 996 you aren't going to tow your boat, you won't take the herd (herd > a family of two full size and two vertically challenged adults) out for ice cream, you won't be knocking boots in the back seat at the drive-in theater unless your date has the limberness of a Chinese acrobat, or even better Miss CiCi over at 2001 Odyssey in Tampa (bachelor party last night, she was astounding ), you aren't going to be throwing the beach chairs into the trunk, errr boot, errrrrr whatever you want to call that front under-the-"hood" compartment. What the 996 will do and do better than most any other car on this planet, is grab you by the essence of an F1 driver that exists in your soul, let you lead her on a high speed twisting journey to your perceived point of no return, and then dump you back into your Lazyboy, engorged, smiling and full of your newfound driving prowess! On the other hand, you could go through life just moving back and forth between the Lazyboy and the Lexus, never really differentiating between the two. That's not living, that's existing. For driving fun at this end of the spectrum, the freight is what it is. We all know it, bitch about it some, but there you go, it's part of the deal. There are less expensive (okay, cheaper) ways to get driving thrills, and as long as you are okay w/ big shiny aluminum rear wings, flourescent paint jobs, and feeding your car a healthy diet of rice, that's okay. If not, then just get your butt up out of that Lazyboy, and drive! fwiw...... Jeff

Just to throw another opinion in. I've been very happy with the quality of my 996. It's spent a total of 1 day (RMS) in the shop in the past 2 1/2 years. Anything I've complained about, squeaks in the hardtop etc. has been promptly fixed by the dealer and I'm given a loaner free of charge. My complaint is the dealers charging $280.00 for an oil change and $400 for an alignment - obviously many are willing to pay this. It goes with the mentality of, you drive a Porsche act like it (pay). Well, the only reason I'm driving a Porsche is because I'm a stingy bastard. In the words of Kramer "List is for suckers." K - Now tell us more about Miss CiCi.

Buy a bike. The threshold of your buzz is lower. None of this e drive crap (when you grab a fistfull of rpms the motor responds & you go). There is a more personal relationship between you and the machine (I can't believe I just said that). When you get back to your Lazyboy, the buzz lasts longer and the fulfillment greater. You don't have to limit your diet to rice

Me no get wut u be sayun, "Buy a bike", "e drive crap"? Is this not a 996 forum? Who's buzz? And unless you are living in the Bladerunner universe, most of us are still a decade or so away from getting "personal" w/ our machines. Now Miss CiCi on the other hand, she can connect w/ just about anything, animate or inanimate, from across the room, around the corner. 'Limber' does not even begin to describe...... and I suspect that she very likely does have a healthy diet, rice included! Jeff

"Just to throw another opinion in. I've been very happy with the quality of my 996. It's spent a total of 1 day (RMS) in the shop in the past 2 1/2 years." Same here. I've had this one over three years and except for 3 visits to fix the air vent (1st trip was porsche's fault and 2nd and 3rd were dealer screw ups - ie: left out screws, etc in repairing it), pound it regularly, and it has had no problems. My 993 was similarly driven and was similarly reliable.

My 996 seems to be falling to pieces on me. That Boxterish interior is starting to reveal just how cheap it is (i.e. dash air vents keep popping up and won't stay snapped into place) and, my premium sport seat are coming apart at the seams! What kind of crap is Porsche putting out these days. I am exactly 10 months out of warrenty and my car is really starting show some huge manufacturing flaws. Today, my Rear Main Seal started leaking (yep, I discovered the infamous drip this morning). Has there been any feedback about Porsche repairing this problem under warrenty for out of warrenty 996's. The oil is coming out in a fairly steady drip (about 1-2 drips per hour). If Porsche cannot fix this under warrenty...I AM OUT...Selling my 996 and no more Porsche's for me. I may have to slide over to Merc's or perhaps (dread the thought) back to Bimmer! In fact, when I go into te dealership to have them repair this problem if I learn that it will not be repaired under warrenty ...I am leaving the car there- I will simply refuse to pick it up... Porsche can have it! I went through this with my 993 (5K to fix a carbon build up in the intake) a flaw that began to reveal itself immediately after the car stepped out of the warrenty. I refuse to get jacked again, now in my 996, if Porsche does not cover this.

got bad news for you, MB's build quality is nothing short of crap and BMW "service" is a joke. if you can get past the horrid new bangle designs, be careful what you get as BMW appears to prefer "customer R&D" these days - especially as relates their M3 motors. there was also a huge recall on their top of the line 7 series. if you wanna leave for a marque with service and reliability, you're likely gonna have to go Lexus. that said, service largely varies by dealer and i've had fantastic porsche service and crap porsche service. hopefully you'll have more than one choice near you.

This I have first hand expereince with because becuase I also have a 2001 "3 series" Bimmer and the serice is truly dreadful...howeverthey still fix our frequently broken car and, in fact, my wife complained to BMW NA and they extended out warrenty to end of our lease on the car (2004) for no additional charge. Can't say that Porsche has been tossing any extended warrenties our way especially in light of the seemingly over whelming RMS, crap interior, air leaking windows, dash air vents that won't stay down, failing alternators, and a sport seat that comes apart at the seams like a cheap Hyundai (actually my seat also moves on the track depending whether I am accelerating or braking- it move me to and fro like $1.00 kiddie carnival ride). Lexus sounds good to me. In fact, Lexus or Aston Martin may be excellent alternatives to consider. If I get any crap from Porsche about this RMS I swear I am out of their cars for good! I f I wanted Chevy service and quality I could have bought a Z06 Vette for 10's of thousands less.

KWC4S: your right, you should expect higher quality from a 90K car, it's a shame that a lesser price car has better fit/finish/reliablity.........

Hey guys! I'll drop a few pennies here. 1st) just about ALL 1st year model cars have problems. You want to be first on the block....deal with it! 2nd) If you want to be first on the block.....you probably will be paying a ++ price for the car!!....when number 1 happens....don't blame "how much" you paid.....in the end it does not matter. 3rd) after 2 + years of ownership, and your trying too sell the car, for whatever reason....see 1 and 2.. 4th) resale value......guess what folks....cars ARE NOT real estate. For the most part they DO NOT GO UP IN VALUE (see 1 and 2 ) Deal with it! 5th) Sorry to be so harsh......take it has you will... PEACE, LOVE, ETC........

HUH!!!??? Well, that was just inspirational. Thanks Phil. I will remember that the next time Porsche releases the new $80K+ 997 and they are looking for buyer loyalty to take-up a new car at my local dealership. I will remember that they only want "ME" to be a first year guinea pig for you and others who are still driving 996's three years later with the same RMS issues. Fact of the matter is, my 99 996C4 has been "rock solid" as a daily driver and I had no real plans of selling it anytime soon unless I was going to buy the new 997 or perhaps a C4S. I will also make certain that my wife does not purchase that Cayenne this year because Porsche always makes first year lemons or "just about ALL 1st year model cars have problems. She wants to be want to be first on the block....She will simply have to deal with it!" and she will not likely get a reasonable value expectaion for the money she is planning to spend. She is probably better off purchasing another POS BMW. Again thanks in advance Phil for your advice, very inspiring.

I wouldn't hold my breath Chris, If I remember correctly, 996's building cost are 50% less of what it cost to build 993, and next model will have significant savings in building costs (comparing to current 996 building costs) again... Obviously, not all savings will result poor(er) build quality but some of them will, that's for sure.

I think we all know we'll take a beating on resale and early adopters (i'm not one) expect some problems, but hell, these cars are expensive. You're reminded of that monthly - when the payment is due. But with Pcars, they seem to have early adopter problems forever (leaks in same motors for years, engine blowouts, etc.). There used to be a standard of 100,000 mi for a motor to last, w/o major repairs. It would be nice to be able to bank on that with Pcars. I have my fingers crossed with my Pepper. DoubleNutz, your problems are minimal compared to Dawter on the Cayenne board, they'll get fixed, even if the service tech uses stop leak. Good luck

My 2c worth. Yeah. Sure its fast. Its bloody fast but...... 2000 996 from new �65k. 27k on the clock. FPSH. Here's the pain: RMS, Header tank, Clutch, Gearbox This car is a heap of crud. A FORD is more reliable. But for some strange reaosn I love it......but I doubt I would ever buy another Pcar. This surely is something that Porsche must recognise. My car is now 3 years old and I am possibly going to look to change it. Wouldn't you think that Porsche would hope that I stay in the club? Seems they don't give a monkeys toss. So, time to look at other performance cars. I am soooooooo close to putting a deposit on an Aston Martin AMV8. Go fish?

Perhaps they don't care if you stay in the club. Look at where their marketing is going: "mainstream" First the Suv (performance orientation), then the SUV V6 (a Audi engine) for soccer moms who don't want performance, but love the status parade. and so on.... Perhaps too, PAG is not capable of making a car that lasts for a 100K mi, and/or with its current user group....

"But with Pcars, they seem to have early adopter problems forever (leaks in same motors for years, engine blowouts, etc.). " ~ Torags. That drives me nuts too... Interjecting a little tanget - I always wanted a 968 cab (evolution of the 944) because I used to think they looked very unique. But, the 968's are known to have the same problems (timing belt and waterpump problems) that I've spend thousands and thousands on when I used to drive a 944. Hard to believe that TWO models had these problems through their collective ~ten years of manufacture. IMO there's no excuse to have not redesigned at least the water pump assembly by year two ('85 I think) yet the last 968 coming off the line in the early/mid 90's had the SAME problems.

Geez I hope you guys have voted in the poll!

If reliability is a priority, and you think you're having problems with the 996, I would highly recommend that you steer well clear of an Aston. The AMV8 may be the brave new world for them, but based on Vanquish and Vantage experiences, there's still a long way to go.

Maybe it's time you increased your appetite for rice. You save $ & get reliability. (Hmmm have I heard that song before?????????) With all due respect for Aston, English cars don't have a good rep for reliability (but they're pretty). I've been there, done it & won't go back.

Torags you hit a nerve. I mentioned Aston Martin because I like the marque, it has good specs and because I have owned an Aston before and it was reliable....albeit very expensive. (1968 DB6). I don't mind expensive but for the expense I demand reliability and quality. Please don't go there with the English cars thing. American cars are just as bad if not worse. Sure the ENglish car market has gone down the tubes to the Germans. But German cars are going down the same tubes. As it happens, Aston is now owned by BMW and is hence its a German car built in Britain to German spec. I ain't trying to pick a fight. I am simply saying that the AMV8 is a really good choice as an alternative and its very tempting given that I am having all sorts of reliability problems with my porker which coincidentally is all occuring at the same time that I am looking to buy a new car. I am saying that given this factor, you would think Porsche would see the light......I am after all the perfect customer: 1) I already own a Porsche 996 so I am likely to want another :-) 2) It has problems but they could be fixed and it would be a good trade in. 3) The car is 3 years old and I am looking to put down a deposit on another for next year.. Hellow Sir, Yes we can give you a great deal on a new C4S Cab with a great trade in price on your car. Oh don't worry about the gearbox, we will take care of that. Sign here...... Instead. Oh you want to buy a new car. But your gearbox is hosed. We can't take that. Youl have to fix it first. If you pay the bill for a new gearbox we will consider taking it in as trade in for a new car. In other words screw you Mr. Customer.

i would have agreed with you 10 years ago about american cars, but they're in an entirely different class now. american car companies have been learning from the japanese and build pretty reliable cars now. of course there are exceptions, but in general american cars are starting to get pretty good. they had to build them better or else they would have lost all of their business to the japanese companies. and on the note of comparing british and american cars, look how much more reliable jaguar is now that ford builds them. i don't think they're quite as interesting and classy now, but at least they're not constantly in the shop.

I didn't mean to be confrontational. I totally agree with you , that when you spend more than the market, it's not unfair of you to ask to be treated better than market. Part of the problem is that you don't have enough dealers & the gov't isn't on their *** if they screw up. Here they have to eat it, if they do.... The Cayenne may bring those "elite" dealers into the sandbox with others that have to compete in price & service. They will have to carry more inventory & pay more interest on unsold cars. If they're good business people they will rise to the occasion, some won't. Good luck....

The point about British cars is that historically idiosyncracy has got in the way of reliability. You only need to look at the Lotus Espirit, DB7 and pretty much every TVR that's ever been built. It's extremely difficult to equate cost of the car with the reliability / build quality etc, the point that you seem to be making on the 996, Scouser. My cousin, seemingly as a matter of principle, only ever buys british cars - he's currently running a Vanquish (previously a Vantage), a Bentley Red Label and a Range Rover, all of which are barely a year old. Each of these now have design input from Ford / BMW, and you would hope all of the associated values that are apparently placed on reliability by those makers. But that simply isn't the case. This incredibly expensive, stunning set of cars not only costs a fortune to run, but, on any given day, will be in the shop for some problem, whether minor or terminal. Agreed, the service side is immaculate, but that's small consolation.

Porsche is a Limited production automobile mfg'r trying to grow by expanding into major markets. The Boxer is a "cute" over priced car and I believe sales have fallen over the last 2 years. The Cayenne is the latest **** ie. Sexy Lux. Utility Transport. with an outragous price. The most popular model is the Turbo and Porsche Dealers are selling all they can get. Other models are sitting and taking up floor space. Thankfully, Porsche has offered both the GT-2 and now the GT-3 to the real hard core customer. It was beginning to look like Porsche was targeting the county club crowd, by only offering GT's in place of Sports Cars. Limited production cars will always have niggling problems... and Porsche's attitude doesn't seem to help overcome quality issues. The water pump problem is a great example of Porsche not addressing a mechanical issue. Their way of handling the problem seemed to be, hope it survives until the end of warranty, and then let the customer pay for repairs. World Class cars are becoming plentiful with the Japanese again tooling up for the sporty car market. The Nissan 350 Z, Honda 2000, a new NSX in 2005, and a brand new Supra are here or just around the corner. We are likely to see Turbo models of these cars from the Japanese again shortly. Corvette's Z06 was a Wake-up call showing that American Mfg'rs could build a serious sports car. Ford's new GT..."43", will also compete.. be it a limited production model. The C6- Z06 promises to be even better. Oh, by the way, I believe Ford owns both Jaguar and Aston Martin, but these cars are really county club GT's, not track racers. If the gov't and insurance companies remain asleep, we can expect GREAT cars in the next few years. I hope Porsche focuses on their history and continues to supply true Sports Cars with performance and reliability. I enjoy competing with them, but I wouldn't want the "head-aches" associated with keeping them running.

trumperZ06, Silly me. Yes of course Aston Martin is now a Ford as is Jaguar.

the Z06 is definitely a very fast, very well performing car all around. i'm not a huge fan of the corvette design, but you can't argue with performance, and the Z06 pulls 1.01 Gs on the skidpad. tell me another regular production car that does that? stumped? well, there isn't one! and then it also does 0-60 as fast as a 996 turbo. and the handling is, well, i hate to say it, but it will lap a racetrack as fast as a turbo. for half the price. it isn't quite as refined, but at half the price, can you complain?

Guys are pulling 1.28 G's lateral acceleration with the OEM tires in the new GT3. http://www.funcarsonline.com/ubbthre...true#Post79319

Z06 vs 996tt http://analogue.net/carpron/z06_vs_996tt_1.mpg

note that he says this: "The 1.28 G's were recorded at Hog Pen, turns 17 & 17a, leading to the pit straight, in third gear. My best time on street tires, with the typical DE traffic, was a 2:13." i was referring to 1.00+ Gs on a skidpad, not on a track. of course you can get higher Gs on a track!

A bit late joining this thread but it is so laughable, really. We are happy to pay big bucks for names like Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and forgive their faults and put it down to idiosyncracies. We are just badge snobs, admit it! It is not forgiveable that cars costing so much hasn't been developed properly and that the after-service is some cases are crap. I have to agree that most Japanese cars are soul-less but even if they made something that wasn't soul-less would you buy it? Be honest, people who buy Porsche or Ferraris usually s****** at cars like the NSX. I agree with most here that the NSX has been rather disappointing from the spec point of view but it is a great car. Just quoting a previous response: "Also, engineering is all about trade-offs. I believe that if you tried to build a car with such great performance AND Lexus type quality, you would be well past the $70-$120k that we all paid. And that's assuming it were even possible" Yes it is possible in the form of the NSX! Proves my point. Sorry I've ranted a little here. Harry

Porschephiles are allergic to rice.......

Have you driven a Suburu WRX Sti? Step from a 964 C4 into an Sti and you'll be amazed at how much car it is. This is from the perspective of a current ttX50 owner. Porsche will soon need to address the perceived value question, especially if the economy stays flat. If my budget was $30,000, there is no way it would go into an out-of-warranty Porsche when so many good choices exist in that realm. The main problem is that above the level of a ZO6, there are few choices. AS

Hi folks, I'm new to this board but want to put in my 2 cents. 2 days ago I purchased a gorgeous 996, 1999, with aero package, full leather, etc for 38k$ from a dealer. They are practically giving these cars away... In fact, in the midwest, these cars are selling at whole sale or below. Window sticker, asking price on this car, was 44k$. Here's the fun part. Tommorrow I am returning it. PPI showed some problems, leaks, etc. But you know what, I don't think I'll miss it. The interior was PURE CRAP. I loved the exterior, and the performance. But everytime I got inside I felt like I had been taken. The quality was worse than in my ford or caddy. When I get in my wifes BMW I am shocked at how nice the interior is - and the ride is phenomenal. I have owned multiple porsches (76 911 s, 911sc, 944 turbo, etc), and have loved the older cars. But the newer 911 feel unacceptably CHEAP. The cars rattle, sqeak. I'm sure if I pulled hard enough on the instrument panel it would come off. The plastic bits are incredibly cheap, to the point that I'm embarrassed. Sorry to rant, but I'm quite dissapointed. I guess it's time for the bmw m3...