Gas Price Gouging

if you live in the u.s., you have been subject to a large and abrupt increase in gasoline prices. there is presently no shortage in fuel supplies, and what we are all seeing is out and out gas price gouging. if the politicians had any *****, they would be speaking out regarding this, and making some attempt to protect us from this corporate greed. we should all remember this at election time.

Premium in San Franciso area is up to 2.59.... I'm beginning to feel European.........

Well 2.59 is only about half price for most places in Europe.

I realize that European gas prices are way higher than what we pay in the US. I myself am pissed not so much what we have to pay, but for the 'gouging' that it really boils down to regarding the (roughly) 30% increase that just so happens to be around a holiday weekend. What does gas in Europe cost, $4.50? Are gas prices there consistant, or do you guys get the gouging as well? Add 30% and get $5.85/gallon. I am sure that would outrage you guys as well.

Here in England we pay about 75p/litre(about $1 /litre), not sure about cost to the gallon. When it got really bad a couple of years ago it was up to �1/litre(about $1.3/litre)!

No *****?? Bush & co? Ignoring the will of the people at this level takes tons of *****!

I don't live in Europe but travel there often. It's about 4 liters to the gallon so that's about $4.00 in England. In Germany it runs around 1 Euro per liter (which is a little over a dollar these days). I don't recall seeing the price of fuel jump as quickly in Europe as it has here in the US recently. I do remember a few years ago filling up at a station near Muinch where they had a poster showing the break down of the costs. Basically the pie chart showed that most of the cost was taxes. I think this was an effort by the owner trying to let his customers know he wasn't getting much of that 1 Euro per liter.

I paid 2.37 for 91 octane today in AZ. Our gas is usuallly around the 1.80's it's sick how much they've increased over the past month.

I don't like to pay high prices for gas either, but supply and demand drives prices. Charging what the market will bear is just good business in a capitalist economy. If Americans would reduce gas consumption by even 20%, prices would drop significantly. But we won't do that. Even with prices well over $2 per gallon in the U.S., I read today that auto travel this Labor Day weekend is expected to be the highest in eight years.

jim, i disagree. in this situation, it is not an issue of supply and demand. there is more than enough supply-it is an issue of corporate greed. it is not good business practice-it is them having you by the throat. if you have planned a vacation, or have to get to work, are you just going to cut back on that. the big oil companies are just doing what enron et al did. what would you say if unleaded next week goes up to $2.85/gallon-is that good business. how about $4.10 in a month-what are you going to do then-stop driving and really show them who's boss. see my point. and don't you all wonder why the politicians are silent?

When you say there is more than enough supply - well that is true at the price you are paying. The reason for the spike in gasoline prices is simplying that on the wholesale market there is less gas available than there was a couple of months ago. Thus prices are driven upward. There are a variety of reasons less gas is available. They range from a delay in getting Iraq producing again, to a pipeline problem in the Arizona area, to just general end of the summer travel. Even the balckout in the NE took some refineries off-line for a time and that impacts the supply. Gasoline is one of the most fluid (no pun intended) markets there is. It goes up and down on a minute by minute basis. When there is a convergence of negative factors as there is now, it will rise rather quickly. docjackson1's statement(s) that there is no shortage is a relative statement. There is less gas available in total and because of that you have to pay more. There is no "shortage" because the marketplace adjusted and the price went up. If you want gas at $1.80, then there is a shortage. You can't compare gas prices in Europe with those of anywhere else in the world unless you subtract out the taxes. This is very likely a temporary situation. I assume you will be singing a sad song for the oil companies during those times when prices are low???

roger-are you an oil executive, or do you work with crude oil commodities? i am sure that you see the basic flaw in your argument-that the gasoline that you are buying now was refined months ago. the market conditions which you speak of were not present then.

doc. big deal -- the free market will solve it. you forget Kinder Morgan blew a pipeline in Phoenix a week or so ago which constricted supply. they are a great outfit of whose stock i and my clients own big plenty... they'll get things fixed and life will go on. the free market gives the best prices thru competition but guarantees nothing.

is enron the free market? how about the other companies that hosed the public-are they the free market? how about their accountants that participated in the fraud? free market also? how about your colleagues/analysts who recomended stocks when they knew otherwise-free market?

It's a little more complicated than a college example of free market economics. In Cal. we have a statuatory additive in our gas to prevent air pollution (that adds a lot because the out of state refiners can't cross sell). Unfortunately that additive poisons our ground water & it lasts thousands of years. It is slated for prohibition soon. In Norcal no one wants a refinery built in their back yard. so it's impossible to get one built. We would have to have an emergency like our electric crisis to get folks to allow it. The current refineries need maintenance, they close down to do that, and there is a price "spike" every time (that might be a metaphor). Additionally, we have a ****load of taxes on the gas, that the mass transit lobby has been trying to get their hands on for years. This is not free market economics, we all need this gas. We're like diabetics and insulin, which is another example "non" free market economics. The only threat to sales the refineries have - is nationalization. I don't espouse that. We'll have to roll with the punches until Porsche comes up with a hybrid gas/electric C4.

jeeez doc, did you vote for diane feinstein? or is Al Sharpton your man?? Caveat Emptor

to be honest watt, i would have trouble finding a politician who i respect-someone who hasn't sold him/herself out to the special interest groups. feinstein is your responsibility. sharpton we never elected.

Just a bit of price control is the beginning of the road to Socialist Hell. Gas is Energy. Energy is volatile to say the least. Sure, Gas is expensive in CA, and in many other places right now. Its always more expensive HERE though, and we get LESS energy for each gallon purchases. Why? Government controls.

brendon-you can't attribute government controls to your energy problems in california. what you have there is an out of control circus. you have tremendous financial problems which the electorate is worsening by staging an election that will cost tens of millions of dollars. en election which has turned into sideshow, making it possible for pornographers, strippers, etc. to waste all of your money. brendon, government control is not your problem-no control is your problem. the free for all that you are having is costing you the money. wake up-how many of the crooks at enron, et al are going to do any jail time. if you think that it is simple good old supply/demand at work causing energy prices to increase %20 in one week, i say god bless you.

I am glad there has been this discussion with no realflaming or yelling of any sort. Doc - I disagree that any government control of ANY energy form will result in disaster on the scale of world collapse. California can't continue with this Anti-Business, Pro-welfare state slant. Ayn Rand outlined what California, and indeed many other places (France, some other parts of Europe) are doing in Atlas Shrugged. I will simply make more money to pay for the higher Gas prices. If it IS IMmoral people and decisions that have smoe part in decisions of any sort, the people that make those decisions will be brought down by thier own goals. The less government the better, within reason, and the bounds of confederation.

It costs me close to US$100 to fill up my gas tank when I am in Hong Kong; I'm very relieved to be paying anything under $3.00 a gallon when I'm back in the States. It's a free country and nobody is forcing me to drive the car I drive, use up as much gas as I do, live where I live, or anything else. If paying through the nose for gas bothers you take the bus or buy a Civic.

The problem with the supply/demand assumption is that we are supposed to believe that the total volume of gas purchased goes down because of the price during these spike periods. I am unconvinced that that is true. There is no shortage like in the 70's when there were gas lines. It feels more like price manipulation to get us accustomed to a perpetually higer "floor" price. I'm not aware of anybody selling their SUV during the intermittant price spikes, and the roads appear to be as congested as ever. In theory, traffic should be wide open because fewer people are using much more expensive gas. That does not appear to be true. What does appear to be true is that people are willing to pay more, rather than modify their travel plans. AS

fair enough david. when your wife's obstetrician demands $11,000 up front to deliver your baby, because all the ob-gyns have decided to raise their prices, and you don't have the money to pay it, do you say "if paying thru the nose for obststrical care bothers you, either deliver the baby yourself, or use birth control. how about when your electrical company quintuples its kw/hr price-do you shut off your lights. david, you are talking and thinking like a wealthy man. there are a lot of people, not as lucky as you, who have to give up there vacations due to their energy costs. maybe you can afford to pay thru the nose. but alot of people can't.

Alexander, you hit the nail on the head. Listen to us. We have some of the most inefficient cars on the road (for their utility. I just ordered my "S" - (I hate myself for it) but I'm going to do it. That's how Americans think. God help us when the mainland Chinese & Indians adopt our way of life. Forget the cost, we're going to poison ourselves (similar to the lead pipes the Greeks used).

huh? the problem is that there is no competition. since '95 we went from fifteen petrolium refinery cos. to something like five (in the US). these mergers have all but insured price fixing and reduced the level of competition that would prevent this kind of price manipulation.

boys, yo is so afraid, big biz got yo by the ballllllllllsssssssss. stand up. the Lord runs a free market, the time frame is Years, not days. have patience and watch. hassle me in 1 year if i'm wrong.

has anyone priced a gallon of water lately?....or milk...or OJ....or lb of coffee?.. lets see..... 1 bottle of "diasani" water (Pepsi product) 1.25 for 8 oz from a vending machine 1 gallon of milk...3 + dollars OJ...close to 4 bucks a gallon? As I recall about 20 years ago( 1983 for those who can't do the math) gas was cheap....at about .99- 1.05 a gallon? Fwiw....DOC...If your gettin 11k up front for a birth procedure....why are you worrying about pennies? and Sometimes I have moments of ....... and in that space of time.....it hit me.... May be if the good "doc" spent more time with his practice, and less time attempting to figure out the "used" Porsche market, and gas price's he would not have too worry about the cost of Gas!

I love it when consumers find it in themselves to criticize an industry, company, business, etc... without first learning the facts. Fact: Enron and the other energy traders that contributed to the screwed up California energy crisis (made a problem by the governor that you voted in office, not the energy trading companies) a few summers ago have nothing to do with gasoline pump prices. You are a fool if you think otherwise. Fact: California has only average gas tax rates compared to other states, with it ranking 34 out of 50 states. If you took the time to do a little research, you would find that on average, the federal and state taxes add ~35% to the cost of a gallon of gas at the pump. The breakdown in 2000 in California looked like this: crude oil cost: 41% refinery cost: 25% Dealer cost and profit: 5% Taxes: 29% Federal: 11% State: 11% Sales: 7% If the dealers add 5% to the cost of gas, where is the price gouging and markups? Oh, at the supplier end? Have you ever seen what it takes to refine a gallon of your 94 octane for your sports car? It aint cheap to do. So if you want to lower your gas prices, drive a hybrid, vote for a governor who will lower the taxes, start your own energy company and give away gas to the masses since you are such a philanthropist, or buy a gas station so you can get it at cost. Otherwise shut up. E. J. PS - I work in the energy business.

We would all like gas to be back at one dollar a gallon like it was just a few years ago -- never can tell, if the world economy falls back to those levels it well may be back down to that point. crude prices have moved up to account for some of those costs but we forget that you need the refinery to crack the crude to make motor fuel and home heating oil for the north east. So much of the refinery capacity is in the NE -- we are not building new plants even with an increase in demand! No one wants new plants in their state! And for years their was no money to be made in refining (the plants would sell for the price of the product in the pipes) The chance that a new plant will be built in California is ZERO - Let us just pray that we have a warm winter or we will be paying even more next spring. It is supply and demand at work -- with a little regulation thrown in to screw things up (it always does) I am sure many on the list can afford these cars because of the basic systems at work in this country!

High gas prices don't bother me. I am sure though that high gas prices bother the restaraunts that I am no longer dining in or the clothing stores I am no longer shopping in etc etc.

Ohio has restaurants and clothing stores? :-) Just trying to lighten the thread, it's gettin' heated......

phil, let me point out to you, you don't have to buy bottled water from a vending machine-you can buy it from kosco's or bj's for 1/3 the price. the same goes for oj. if gas is x amount, it is x amount all over the place-as previous board members have pointed out, you are dealing with a monopoly. if you are happy paying %20 more every time there is a holiday, don't let me convince you otherwise. phil, if you read my post carefully, you would see that the $11,000 is a for instance, i am not an ob-gyn. and as long as you want to get personal, i spend over 60 hrs/week seeing north of 200 patients a week. i do this on my free time for relaxation. i have the money to pay for the gas-i am just concerned about those who don't.

Torags: Not in Portsmouth. I have to drive (i.e. spend $30.00 in gas) to get to a decent restauaunt or shopping in Cincinnati or Columbus. The cheap moonshine makes up for it though ; )

Hey Doc Jack, how concerned are you really? I mean, what, you put all your energy compalining on some dumb internet chat board. Why not give all your doctor riches to those that cant afford gas. You are they typical talker, not do-er. Put up or shut up.

ej- you don't know me. you speak like a person without an education. i am not going to waste the time you speak of answering you. talk on.

Maybe we can all afford the gas and we're just venting here about something we can't have any effect on. For my money I don't care if the refined gas price goes thru the roof. Whatever it takes to get people to use less gas. I think we're poisoning our atmosphere and anything that will slow that - I'm for. I say that as a true hypocrite with my gas consuming toys. I'm a dinosaur from an age that gas was .30, plentiful, not as many people had cars (Europe was on motorized bicycles) and the air was relatively clean. I justify my "un green " ways by looking at the people around me, who have hugh suburbans towing 2 cycle waverunners or Fountains (boats), driving Big displacement Harleys, Goldwings etc.. As some would say, I'm ****tin' myself.........

torags, having a k75 as you do, the goldwing ain't such a bad idea. i have a k1200lt, which does 44.5 mpg-is a goldwing much worse? no, i don't think that mcgrath or e.j. are venting-i think that they are participating in a personal attack, based on who they percieve that i am. my point in bringing out this thread was to find out the opinions of other board members regarding the recent severe rise in gas prices. unfortunately, there are members, who because of issues in their own life, feel that personal assaults are satisfying.

how the air is cleaner now than it was 30 years ago. Those in LA can vouch for that. Anyone old enough to remember will tell you that 30 years ago on certain days, you couldn't function outside w/o burning eyes and wheezy lungs. Today those days are few and far in between. The ozone hole is shrinking according to the same group that 'discovered' it in the first place. Volvo claims that if you drive their cars in NY or LA, you're actually giving out cleaner air than what went in! They say it one sense, you're actually cleaning the air. Things are getting better with the atmosphere and emissions. All this and more SUV's than ever. Can it be that cars are so efficient, today that SUV or not, it's helping the atmosphere?

Off thread... I shopped for a K1200S last year, before I took a RS1150 thru Italy, Sardinia & Corsica. After going 180-190kph for hours on end; I decided the purchase might kill me (it wasn't the gas consumption). A Goldwing? how insulting :-).......

Scott.. "how the air is cleaner now than it was 30 years ago. Those in LA can vouch for that. Anyone old enough to remember will tell you that 30 years ago on certain days, you couldn't function outside w/o burning eyes and wheezy lungs. Today those days are few and far in between. " A lot of the pollution 30 yrs ago was from burning sulfer fuel oil. I was raised in NYC. The local joke was, "Don't eat soup outside it will get dirty". The fuel particulates were very visable and the source of acid rain. Our pollution now is from a different source (Not as visable but deadly still). The state of the art of refining of gas (due to imposing laws the gas lobby fought) has helped. The ozone layer readings lags our use. The current readings reflect (to a degree) the switch to smaller gas engines a few years back. You will see the effect of the switch to larger engines in a few years. Think of what your children will be facing.......

Hey Doc, you should have just said so up front. You want my opinion, well here it is: Shut up. I don't care to hear your incessant ramblings about how the whole world is agianst the rich doctor. Do you have any idea how you come across complaining about gas prices when you pedal around in your gas guzzling toy (I am assuming you have a Porsche or SUV or both) instead of a hybrid or other fuel efficient car. You want gas for everyone, then go live in Russia. Oh, I fogot they gave up on equlaity for everyone a while ago and are now embracing an open society. Put your damn money where your mouth is. You are no different than that Huffington woman who drives a Cherokee and rides in private jets by herself while blasting big oil companies and SUV owners. A hyprocrit, to say the least. If yours so damn tired of getting screwed by the big companies, why not run for office yourself and try to change the system? Oh, you wouldn't be able to afford your toys then, sorry. Oh, and another thing. Its big companies like the health insurance companies that have financed your toys for some time now. Don't hear you complaining about that big business now, do I? I have no problem with agreeing that cars should be more fuel efficient, including SUVs. My wife drives one. But what really gets my goat and brings me over to the 996 board is posts and posters like this that blame everyone from the government to the big companies to the politicians for the proper workings of a free market. Somewhere in this thread are some intellegent answers to your ridiculous accusations that actually explain why the gas prices are so high right now. If you took the time to pull your head out of your conspiracy theories, then you might actually learn something. Hey here's an idea, why not build a refinery in your back yard. No way would you go for that right? Well then, until people like you realize that gas for your car doesnt rain down from heaven and get collected in big underground tanks, they are going to be paying more for fuel for their cars, boats, bikes, snowmobiles, tractors, combines, lawnmowers, snowplows, et al. E. J. PS - its not a personal attack on you, just your post, beliefs and accusations.

e.j.-i am wondering, what makes you so angry? everyone on this board could respond to one another in an agressive and derogatory manner, as you do, but we don't. i might disagree with what other people say, but i still will not repeatedly tell them to "shut up", or call them names. you really don't want to discuss issues-you want to insult. if you feel good doing that, go ahead-it doesn't affect me at all. if you want to discuss issues, even better. by the way, do you drive a porsche?

Doc, as the name implies, I used to own a 993, and now I race SRFs in the SCCA. Just cant go fast enough on the street anymore without getting in trouble. If you took the time to read my previous posts, you would probably find lots of pertinent issue type information. I am sorry it is so hard fo you to get past the second grade name calling that seems to have you so hung up. Anyway, you're right. We are all adults. Just that some of us are tired of hearing others act like whining three year olds on Rennlist. Thats all. And I am still waiting for some facts about the big conspiracy theory. As I pointed out, there are a few thoughtful posts in this thread that can explain the temporarily high gas prices, but none from you and yours explaining the coverup and conspiracy. E. J.

e.j.-what would i find of interest if i read your past posts? what pertinant issue type information would i find?

If you have to ask Doc... Edit: Found some:

ok ej-lets end it. ain't no where to go

Why is it so much more in CA? Over here in PA it's abotu ~$1.70-1.80 for the good stuff...

and brh, is it normally more for gasoline in ca, and why? i think that at least part of the year, they may have a different mixture/additive which is legislated due to pollution.

for those of you who feel that the recent increase in gasoline prices was secondary to normal market variations, and to those who feel that anyone who drives a porsche who complains about gasoline prices should just be quiet, let me refer you to an article on sept 4 from the associated press entitled "officials open probe into higher gas prices-was the blackout excuse for gouging?" they go on to say that "the energy dpartment is investigating whether price gouging was involved in the unusually large gasoline price jumps that followed the northeast power blackout and continued through the labor day weekend. if irregularities are found, the information could be turned over to the justice dept. or to the ftc. secretary spencer abraham told a house hearing on the electricity blackout that while gasoline prices normally increase in the days leading up to the heavily traveled labor day weekend, the recent price spikes struck me as being unusually large prompting a decision to look into the matter". i know that a lot of you feel that the price increases were due to normal market variation, but i disagree and feel that gouging may have motivated the gasoline price increases. i typed in the article from the ap to provide some factual information, to show that the secretary of the dept of energy has a similar opinion.

I am old enough to remember all the so called shortages etc. And the government always launched an investigation - nothing will come of it except it will cost a lot of money. The simple fact is we do not have the refinery capacity to make up the changes in demand -- a 2% shift in consumption up or down is all that is required to through the whole thing off.. Many people do not sit down and think how complex the system is to get that gas to the tank. When you crack oil you get many byproducts -- what about the current costs of those! where to put that product! I believe that this system is just too complex with too many players to ever get me to believe any conspiracy theory. To believe that somehow all these people get together to raise the price is far fetched in my opinion

yeldogt-you never heard of price fixing? remember the shortage of flu shots last year? each of the individual makers of flu shots had a mysterious shortage of the immunizations, but as soon as the price tripled, there was and is plenty of immunization for everyone. with all due respect, this type of stuff does occur. can i tell you for sure that it happened with fuel prices-of course not. but when the secretary of the energy department feels that there is reason to believe that it has happened, we have to have an open mind and realise that it is a distinct possibility. to dismiss it because we cannot fathom it is not logical.

"Recent" Price hikes, huh? Tell ya what. I pulled my Tax forms from 1982, lo & behold, there were my expenses (back in the day when retail taxes were a deduction, if you're wondering why receipts were kept). Anyone want to guess what I paid per gallon, May 1982? $.90? Nope. $1.00?? Nope Try this: $1.80/gal in Washington, DC. I've got the reciepts to prove it, too. Seems to me that gas prices haven't moved much in 20 years. J

JeffES, I suspect the experiences of the 70's oil embargo planted the seeds for the current price spiral. If crude prices rise by 10%, then gas should not go up by more than that, since refinery costs and transport costs are relatively fixed (I know-it costs more to drive the truck-but the fixed costs are the major ones, and the refinery didn't start to cost more). The law of supply and demand has about as much to do with gas prices as skill has to do with professional wrestling. The guys who are paid to maximize their profits take advantage of every opportunity and excuse. My neighbor happens to be the president of our local gas and electric company, and he does everything in his power to make energy as expensive as he can (get away with). The net result is that my energy costs are enormous, and he makes about $7,000,000 per year plus stock options. It's a giant national scam. Yes, gas is cheaper here than Europe, but it's due to taxes. We'll narrow the gap if we allow taxes based on %of sale rather than "per gallon". There's a line in "A Few Good Men" that Jack Nicholson delivers, "You can't stand the truth". AS

well -- let us not talk about flu shots -- oil is a world wide product -- so are the final refined products. Gas is different it many parts of the country and it changes almost every place in the country as the seasons change. Yes the energy cos make money as the product goes up in price as it sits in the pipeline -- but it does not sit for long -- by the comments on this list it is just clear to me that people are not grasping the quantities of gasoline that flow in this country. It is just an unbelievable amount. And yes it does cost more to refine today -- just the multi prouduct alone adds to the cost. now the flu shots; There are two main flu shot produces for last year -- their was a debate on the correct formula last year -- it was late and it did become a bidding war. The manufacture of all this type of product has been greatly reduced. In many cases down to one manufacturer -- only one maker of polio -- remember the problems with making the small pox vac -- we still do not have all the doses requested -- over one year later! I could get into the legal problems that drive the cost and reduce the number of manufactures I know that people do dishonest things in this world -- but I have to say your two examples -- are in my opinion not them Many will say that the blackouts of a few weeks ago were some sort of conspiracy -- I am more amazed that they happen so infrequently. I am just glad that the people who run the Porsche sales departments in the few dealers I have gone to are not running anything else!

yeldogt-it seems like you are a bright guy, and you seem to have strong opinions that there is no way that the price of fuel could be manipulated. aren't you the least bit impressed that the secretary of the energy department feels that manipulation did occur? do you and other resondants feel that you know more than he does? by the way, no one is saying that the blackouts were induced-all that is being said is that they are being used as excuses for the price increase.

Why is it hard to believe that the price is much more about what the market will bear than about supply and demand? If people would stop driving when the price goes up, the price would stop going up. At peak travel times, nobody alters their travel plans due to a gas price spike. It's a 2 part problem- the supplier will use every opportunity to raise pricees, and the consumer is basically saying 'OK". On the high-consumption question, if the country's leadership really wanted to lower utilization, they could tax gas just like the European nations. That would end the SUV craze, and result in Smart cars and A-class Benzes being sold here, along with low sulphur diesel, so we could get the Lupo. It's we the citizens who don't quite have the stomach for that. We like cheap gas, we're willing to use it, and we seem to be willing to pay more for it. One of the Saudi princes once commented that there is plenty of gas in the ground for the next 40 years, they just don't think anyone will be using it then. Maybe the prices will get us to get there sooner.AS

I'm coming late to this discussion but thought to throw in some news that I heard the other day on gas production. Personally I feel that the Doc. makes a good point to be wary of big business practices. Thinking about it was not that long ago where firms like Degussa, BASF, and and others were found to be price fixing on vitamins. ADM in the mid 90s priced fixed with an amino acid used in animal feed and was fined heavily. It was reported that ADM execs had a motto that went, the customer in our enemy and competition our friend. Currently American pharmaceutical firms are putting pressure on Canadian firms to not sell cheaply the same drugs sold in America. There is the price gouging going on with insurance firms on Doctors malpractice insurance which is running some specialists out of practice. When it comes to the resent gas price hike, I saw on TV a New York Senator I think named Charles Schumer saying that Saudi Arabia since the beginning of August has cut back production by 25%. I have not read or seen this news anywhere else but if true it could help explain why the higher prices. The other day Saudi Arabia did announce that they did not see any reasons to increase production.