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YOUR RESEARCHNew M3 better than a 997 911 Turbo?
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Part of that feel is due to light steering, but the importance of having the lowest mass and the narrowest width also plays a huge role.
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Suggestion
I picked up a 2009 528xi this winter to replace an aging A6 for wet weather, and I have to say certain things about current BMW technology (and pricing) are very nice, particularly (and I'm not sure if the 3 platform has it) the active body control type technology they have.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
It is immediately obvious (especially at altitude) that the M3 isn�t as quick as its turbocharged competition, but 0 to 60 mph in 4.4 seconds is nothing to scoff at, either (other M3s we�ve tested have been slightly quicker).
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Of course Nissan owners are probably the bulk of the population for C&D these days....
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I picked up a 2009 528xi this winter to replace an aging A6 for wet weather, and I have to say certain things about current BMW technology (and pricing) are very nice, particularly (and I'm not sure if the 3 platform has it) the active body control type technology they have.
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It really does seem like the automotive press tends to preferentially pick the wrong Porsche for the test they're running: comparing for all out performance?
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I picked up a 2009 528xi this winter to replace an aging A6 for wet weather, and I have to say certain things about current BMW technology (and pricing) are very nice, particularly (and I'm not sure if the 3 platform has it) the active body control type technology they have.
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It really does seem like the automotive press tends to preferentially pick the wrong Porsche for the test they're running: comparing for all out performance?
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Run a comparision of Sports Cars, test lighter weight cars like the 997S and the C6 against the M3 (closer power to weight ratios), and don't factor in back seats or trunks (i.e.
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Suggestion · Original poster
And before you think we�ve gone soft and are too old for a wildcat like the GT-R, know that the average age of the test drivers (and the voters of the comparison test) was 29.5 years.
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Suggestion · Original poster
As one test driver put it, �The M3 is the car that the driver has the most control over.� Oversteer, understeer, and neutrality are all on the M3�s r�sum�, but they�re dependent on the driver�s inputs.
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And before you think we�ve gone soft and are too old for a wildcat like the GT-R, know that the average age of the test drivers (and the voters of the comparison test) was 29.5 years.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
It is immediately obvious (especially at altitude) that the M3 isn�t as quick as its turbocharged competition, but 0 to 60 mph in 4.4 seconds is nothing to scoff at, either (other M3s we�ve tested have been slightly quicker).
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I think this grouping is a better comparison than comparing the M3 to a Corvette or a GT3 as those cars are squarely focus'd on being sports cars despite still having similar performance numbers.
According to Car & Driver, the new E92 M3 coupe beats out the brand new 911 Turbo as well as the GT-R.
First Place: 2008 BMW M3
The voices in our head say: �How could the M3 win against a GT-R and a 911 Turbo? Are you guys goofy? BMW jock sniffers! How could you let this happen? Impossible!�
In this group of radical cars, the M3 emerged quickly as the voice of reason. The extremist voices of the Porsche and the GT-R are just not present in the M3. It never shouts, utters complaints, or makes any unbecoming demands. Road and tire noise are subdued, the fabric-covered seats are perfect, and there is a back seat and a real trunk. But even with those attributes, the M3 doesn�t skimp on supercar performance. It just happens to be dressed in a polished and practical package.
Even without the optional adjustable electronic dampers, our M3 test car displayed a better ride-and-handling compromise than either the 911 or the GT-R. Handling, both on the track and public roads, matched the GT-R in our individual scoring. But the M3 goes about its business differently. The GT-R steamrolls the tarmac into submission in an eerie sort of way; the M3 allows the driver to use the car as an instrument. Not many cars can play the road�the car world has more fakers than a middle-school band concert.
As one test driver put it, �The M3 is the car that the driver has the most control over.� Oversteer, understeer, and neutrality are all on the M3�s r�sum�, but they�re dependent on the driver�s inputs. The chassis has no surprises, no snap reactions, no bad habits�even midcorner bumps are sopped up without drama. Strong brakes have excellent initial bite and didn�t fade even after many, many laps. The BMW�s lap time lagged 1.5 seconds behind the 911 Turbo�s, but that translates to an average speed throughout the lap that was only 0.3 mph slower than the far more powerful Porsche. Thus the BMW, though suffocated by the thin air at 4200 feet, managed to make up most of the difference by cornering faster.
Unlike the heavyweights, the BMW feels smaller the harder it is driven. Part of that feel is due to light steering, but the importance of having the lowest mass and the narrowest width also plays a huge role.
It is immediately obvious (especially at altitude) that the M3 isn�t as quick as its turbocharged competition, but 0 to 60 mph in 4.4 seconds is nothing to scoff at, either (other M3s we�ve tested have been slightly quicker). A naturally aspirated 4.0-liter V-8 can�t deliver the massive torque of the blown sixes, but the M3 delivers its 414 horsepower in a linear and consistent manner from idle to its 8300-rpm redline. No lurching, no drama, no sudden explosions of boost. And the sound the BMW V-8 makes is due a Grammy. It�s a V-8 note not often heard outside racetracks, while the Nissan and the Porsche both sound as though they could wear a Dyson label.
If you�ll overlook the now clich� complaints about the iDrive control system and the car�s light steering, the M3 didn�t draw any negative words in its logbook. And the iDrive gripe is easily solved by not ordering the $2100 optional navigation system.
The M3 offers an unparalleled mix of hassle-free livability and performance at a price that undercuts those of the *Nissan and the Porsche. For that, it wins in our book. We say its performance deficit is made up by the near perfection and sophistication of the rest of the package. And before you think we�ve gone soft and are too old for a wildcat like the GT-R, know that the average age of the test drivers (and the voters of the comparison test) was 29.5 years. Moreover, we�re the only three C/D staffers who dream of having a Lotus Elise as a daily driver. Trust us, we can put up with a lot of crudeness�you should have heard our dinner conversations. But if you can have it all without the pain, who would vote against that? And until that Elise thing happens, the M3 is the car we�d take home forever.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st+page-4.html
yeah, saw that. Car and Driver has been getting more conservative. It really depends what they have in mind as judgement criteria. In this price range, there is no "one" car you need to take home forever. As a fun car, I wonder if they would still pick the other two if they had a 500 series wagon in the garage.
And if they hate the turbo so much, why didn't they pick the GT3 to compare against?
Kind of ironic how the 911 out dragged the others, not exactly what most people buy them for.
What I get out of all of these comparisons is Porsche is THE bench mark... always will be.
Cars today from A to Z are all very competent, drivers..hmm not so much.
Happy driving folks,
Geoff
JMTCW, but when ever I see a comparison between a Porsche and anything else I always look to see if the test drivers mention any of the things a Porsche driver has to do different to get the most from the car. If not, I automatically assume they are attempting to drive the RR car the way they drive FR's. Then there's the boost issue. I know these guys are suppose to be pro's but I've seen my share of so-so Pros.
Then again, I like M series BMWs. They make going really fast real easy.
Well we all know the M3 is a hell of a car, and this latest one is obviously pretty amazing. It's different than a Porsche, of course, but the thing is pretty mean and capable.
I wouldn't get defensive and try and make excuses for the Turbo - no need to, really. I'd rather have a Turbo, or of course, a GT3, but if I was looking for a DD high performance sedan, the M3 would be, and always has been, a great car to pick- as many around here have done already.
I recently watched the review on "Motorweek" on t.v., and they loved it, too - plus I think it looks great. Quite a bargain price for the performance level, too.
I was at Borders today in the magazine section. I picked up a copy of Bimmer magazine to skim over an article on the new M3. It featured a comparison with the 911. I was surprised by what I read. They were comparing the base 997 Carrera to the M3. I thought I was reading a Porsche magazine. The Carrera compared very favorably to the M3. The writer also said that he preferred the 996 to the 997.
I enjoy the practical aspect of my BMW. It is a better car for hauling the family around. My Porsche will always be the passionate choice, for sheer driving pleasure.
Yeah, so the new M3 is a great car. Too bad they had to ditch the straight 6, wish they could have done the car with a turbo 6, but it's hard to beat the giant torque of a V8 (look at Mercedes).
Then again, you've gotta give BMW credit for making the new V8 lighter than the 6.
I'd take more issue with ranking the Datsun over the Porsche (!), but they do state that price was a big factor in the total ranking.
Of course Nissan owners are probably the bulk of the population for C&D these days....
I don't know how big that track was, but a lap difference of 1.5 seconds is pretty substantial. Of course, give the turbo's price, it ought to be faster.
The answer is in this statement. They test a sports sedan against two sports cars/GT's and then claim a desire for a comfortable back seat and a trunk.
If that's the criteria, I guess the M3 does win.
The M3 they tested was a coupe, not a sedan. And if you read the whole article, they aren't basing it on any one thing, rather the whole package.
Besides, the M3 has always been compared to the 911's. I think the difference now is, the M3 has 420BHP and the standard 911 has 320 and Turbo 480. Compared to last generation where the M3 had 330BHP and the standard 911 had 296-320.
The M3 is NO substitute, but I would seriously consider a NEW M3 before a new standard Carrera, or maybe even Carrera S.
The M3 has always had the classic 3 box profile of a sedan. In this case it is a 2 door sedan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan
Again, they clearly took a sports sedan and considered qualities that it has by it's very nature (large back seat and trunk) and took that into consideration when comparing it to two sports cars/GT's.
If you factor those qualities in (as Car & Driver obviously did) the M3 is the obvious winner. The other reason the M3 does well in the C&D test is because they are comparing it to with two other very portly cars.
Run a comparision of Sports Cars, test lighter weight cars like the 997S and the C6 against the M3 (closer power to weight ratios), and don't factor in back seats or trunks (i.e. test them all as "sports cars") and I think you would see a different outcome.
Doesn't matter how you look at it- the fact that a sports sedan costing half as much can even begin to compete with a 911 Turbo is extremely impressive. It's obviously a bad-*** car, no matter how many seats it has.
Here's another review (Car Magazine) in which the M3 was pitted again against the Gt-R and the 911 Turbo, as well as the Audi R8.
This time the M3 came in second and was only beat by the GT-R. They said the M3 had the "BEST" engine out of the bunch, best interior and was the most fun on the track.
Yeah, I don't really care about a few tenths of second here, a couple tenths of a G there, I still like Porsches and would take the Turbo anyday. Still can't believe the M3 is so good though - it's crazy.
Its amazing how the GTR is not as fast as the first test were. I knew the preproduction cars were some what race prepped and were not that much faster then they were orginally thought. I do think they got the wrong porsche for the test. The turbo has become more of a luxo cruiser for the well to do then the true enthusist. A better comparison would be the GT3 or even the Carrera S which is lighter then the turbo and on par with the M3 as far as acceleration.
I thought exactly the same thing when I read the article. Also, if you look at the point scoring, the M3 gained a big advantage over the turbo because of back seat and trunk space.
One thing that struck me about the test was that the M3 was the "lightweight" of the group at 3600+ lbs. I understand we've got improved safety and extra electronic gizmos, but do these things REALLY need to be so porky? Porsche should be ashamed of itself for producing a 3,700 lb TT. As noted above, I guess that's why they make the GT3.
+1
That's what struck me when I read it.
The article title was "Vision Quest". However when you consider the weight (M3 3,600 lbs, 997TT 3,720, GT-R 3,900) "Three little pigs" would seem to be a better title.
Well, 1st off, it felt slow to me. Coming from the Turbo, that's probably normal. Although I forget to hit the M button till 1 block away from the BMW dealership on the second drive. But I did mess with teh damper settings and I like it on Sport.
They felt small, and sporty JUST like a 911. Handling felt as good or better than my Turbo. The car was SO easy to drive, effortless. The Engine roared and it just feels SO raw, yet refined and I don't know, it just fits and you feel SO connected. BMW has really done it!
I gotta agree. As impressive as it may be on paper, I bet it rusts just like Nissan (quickly). And it not nearly as nice to look at (which does count in my world).
If given a choice, it would have to be the Turbo for me. I like the M3 but it is so not the same thing - and it's not cheap either. I'd lioke to drive the R8, but I can't get used to that Stainless Steel band thingy
A couple of weeks before I bought my p-car, I test drove the new M3, M Roadster, and the Z06. I currently own a 1999 328i which I bought new (now my wife's car) and have always enjoyed my BMW. I thought both the M3 and M Roadster performed great. The dealer, where I test drove the new M3, did not let me push the car as hard as I wanted to because it had only 100 miles on it. I could not get a good feel for the top end (RPM range) or really the power. To me, it really did seem like it had over 400 HP.
On the other hand the Z06, is an absolute rocket. It definitely has throw-you-in-your-seat power! Fun to drive but it is still a GM product with the same old 80s feel interior. Will they ever learn?
About the GTR, it is just plain UGLY! I can't get over the bad looks...interior and exterior!
There is more to a car than just winning the 0-60 times or slightly higher top end. It is quality, workmanship, heritage, refinement, and sheer beauty!! There is no question...we have the better car.
It really does seem like the automotive press tends to preferentially pick the wrong Porsche for the test they're running: comparing for all out performance? ...base boxster against a Ferrari F1 car. comparing practicality? ...GT3 against a camry. comparing fuel consumption? ...cayenne turbo against a prius. I guess you have to stack the deck like that in order to make the odds fair, huh?
As far as the TT's non-purist intentions go, just how soft is the TT? Is the turbo less track-capable (in terms of aggressive suspension setup) than would be a base 911?
I agree, it's stupid to put an M3 up against those two.
Put it up against a Carrera, or an S. After driving a Turbo, the M3 seems slow, then again so does a Carrera S. I would put the Carrera S and the M3 in the same category though. For the price, and options, I think the NEW M3 is the better choice.
I'd rather have a BRAND NEW, FULLY LOADED M3 for around $68 than a 3 going on 4 year old Carrera S for the same price. I urge anyone who feels they have an opinion against the NEW M3 and hasn't driven one, to go drive one!!!
Here's a good question....do we all still consider a 997S to be a sports car or a GT?
IF we're looking up definitions all 3 cars totally fit the mold for what a GT car should be. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer
). The M3 hasn't been a sports car/sedan since the E30...MAYBE the E36.
Part of being a touring car is back seats and trunk so why not consider them in the equation. I think this grouping is a better comparison than comparing the M3 to a Corvette or a GT3 as those cars are squarely focus'd on being sports cars despite still having similar performance numbers.
Again...I'm on the fence as to where the 997S would fit. Clearly a TT is a GT car, Porsche wants us to believe that a 997s is a sports car but it's nearly in the GT category now too. However the 997S would get similarly skunked in the performance categories like the M3 did in this test and would then fail even worse in the back seat and trunk category. At least the TT was a stand out in the performance categories.
just some additional food for thought....and please don't take the comments the right way as I'm actually considering a 997s purchase right now...I love the car, just pointing out things as I see them.
Andy
I'd catagorize them as follows.....
- 997/997S/GT3/Corvette, sports cars
- 997TT/GT-R, GT's
- M3, Sports Sedan
If you read the article it appears that the wikipedia author would catagorize them the same way
I saw an M3 Sedan at wide world of cars (or whatever the ferrari dealer on route 59 in rockland is called), was too late in the day to drive it, but I think I will drive one for the hell of it this week.
Well, I've switched teams.
2008 M3 Sedan. Black Metallic with Fox Red Leather. Car has every option available (except SMG). It was a demo that they've had since March 8th - I got $4k off sticker. Just took delivery and.....I love it!!
So you moved from a U-boat to a battleship? Just kidding!
Your M3 sounds nice! Any pics? Don't make me treat you like a !@#$%^&* Newbie for not posting pics! I may be Porsch-less but I still have a mean keyboard.
I have to say that I always loved BMW's and think that the new 3 series coupe and ofcourse the M3 series looks like a winner!
Tim how does it feel?? being without a P?? I am not being sarcastic! I am thinking of getting ride of mine...but since I own it i just can't bring myself to listing it anywhere....hope that when my daughter turn 1yr old and can drive in the back I will change my mind and keep it if she likes the wind in her face!
i just sold my 335i coupe, now i'm really torn between getting an 06/07 carrera 2 (not S) or ordering an 09 m3 coupe just the way i want it
on my test drives, i like the 997's gruff sound (especially the sport exhaust), VERY smooooth gearchange, the hid lights, and of course the porsche badge
but i like the m3's sleek looks, smooth yet visceral v8 sound, and its generally more modern feel (especially the 09 with the newer i drive)
i understand that i shouldnt compare a 3/4 yr old one to a new m3.. but the 911 seems like great value at about $10-12k less than the m3 that i want
decisions...
Not an M3, but my 335i is an all around great car comfort wise and particularly performance wise. So much so that I stopped driving my 993 on the street for the most part. The 993 was awesome but inconvenient. BMW has performance sedans that are sports cars, that no one else has been able to replicate. IMO.
Go drive both REAL hard and just see what feels better to you. I would def take the M3 over a standard 911, but it just fits *my* needs better. I really need to drive a Carrera S and see how I like it now, compared to back when I 1st got my M.
According to Wikepdia:
SPORTS CAR:
A sports car is a term used to describe a class of automobile typically of two seats and two doors with precise handling, brisk acceleration, sharp braking, and attractive aesthetics. A sports car makes trade offs in practical considerations such as passenger space, comfort, and cargo capacity in favor of those traits which enhance the joy of driving it.
SPORTS SEDAN:
A sports sedan or a sports saloon is a descriptive term applied to a sedan automobile that is designed to look and feel "sporty" - offering the driver more connection with the driving experience. Most vehicles in this category overlap with the compact executive car and executive car classifications.
Thanks for the definition..
My point is there are not alot of "Sports Cars" by definition that will out perform BMW's line-up of "Sports Sedans" for the money. Add to it what others have said about the creature comforts and it is hard to compromise the inconvience of a sports car to the convience of a sports sedan when the deparity is minimal...
335i is not an M3 but it also gets 24MPG vs. 14MPG and insurance rating nearly 1/2 the cost. Don't get me wrong all the cars listed are phenomenal pieces of machinery but most of these cars are far beyond the guy behind the wheels ability to push the limits of the car. That said I'd bet a dollar you couldn't get your M3 around my 335i.
Not trying to start a 335i v M3 fight, as there's no way to compare these two cars, but if i wanted good gas mileage and cheaper insurance, I'd buy a Prius.
As far as getting an M3 around a 335i, these two cars shouldn't be compared. Compare 335i to Infiniti G37, to Lexus IS 350, to Audi A4 3.2
Not sure how this makes a point This is an old vid. All it says is if you drive a Prius as hard as you can and pace it with an M3 (which is keeping the RPM's under 4k most all of the way), the Prius get's worse mileage.
Dave,
I was by no means knocking the 335i, or the M3 for that matter. I was just pointing out that they are fine cars but not sports cars. I see you have the BEST of both worlds. A sports car and a very fine sports sedan.
I think BMW's are great cars. I used to own a '99 M Roadster.
Charlie
Absolutely.
I was messing around with a new M3 a couple weeks ago (on empty highway), and we got to a red light. I told him "nice car" and he yells over "yeah, but a 911 is still better in some ways, this thing doesn't have the same handling response as my old 996. And this thing doesn't have as much torque as you'd think."
He then proceeded to jump the next light, but.... pretty amazing that I could hang with him until I hit the rev lmiter and of course he didn't have to shift for another 1500 rpm.
I'm not sold on the move to V8 power.
I prefer something like the new Audi S4 taking it back to V6 with forced induction....
Back from beyond! Hey I'm glad to see Gant back posting here even if it's about Munich!
So my big Q, after a long time without the turbo now, what do you think? Keep the M3 and buy something more frivolous for the weekend car? (btw I think you had perfect timing depreciation wise, good move)
I picked up a 2009 528xi this winter to replace an aging A6 for wet weather, and I have to say certain things about current BMW technology (and pricing) are very nice, particularly (and I'm not sure if the 3 platform has it) the active body control type technology they have.
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