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YOUR RESEARCHPorsche-VW merge
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english who took the vw company
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It was the English who took the VW company after WWII and gave it to other folks to run.
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The control gambit proved to be suicidal for Weideking who spear-headed the stock gambit for Porsche HOLDING.
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2 days ago at the CNBC channel, they ran a segment on the merge;
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As for a 911 Panamera, keep in mind the 928 was supposed to replace the 911 way back in the mid-1970's.
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I just heard the news of Porsche-VW merge.
1. Do you think this is good for Porsche?
VW sells EDIT: 4.7 Million cars, Porsche only 100,000.
2. Will Porsche decrease quality and prestige and go for the massive sales,
becoming just another VW brand?
3. Will Porsche boss resign?
the news here is that porsche has decided NOT to take over 75 %, and would rather a merger occur, limiting its exposure. Someone in 997 board has correctly stated that the buyout wass bassed on credit not cash and now the debt service is too costly for porsche. Must be hard with a 30% world wide decrease in sales....
Yes, but in a nutshell,
Porsche Holding borrowed the money for the stock they bought. Now those loans are due. No banks are currently interested in refinancing the loans because of the world banking crisis and the crash of the world-wide automobile industry. Porsche Holding owes about $9 BILLION on the loans. Only way to resolve the problem is to either sell the stock or ... ta-dah ... merge so that the $8 BILLION VW has in cash reserves in the bank can be used to repay the outstanding loans.
Porsche AG was never the actual purchaser or the actual stock holder. The Porsche/Piech family has a multitude of "holding companies" that actually own the stock and control the two companies. It is not a simple as Porsche AG buying VW Group AG. The F. Porsche decendant family members who control the holding companies often fight among themselves for control of the companies. The Porsche family already owns and controls both companies, and now it is just a contest of will (more like potlatching) within the family members.
Then there is the control of VW Group by the local government which controls 20% of VW Group stock and has passed laws to prohibit the involuntary transfer of power (jobs) away from Lower Saxony or wherever.
This is much on the order of the Hatfields and McCoys in West Virginia. Everybody is actually cousins, and they are fighting over control of the stills.
You have been doing your homework!
2 days ago at the CNBC channel, they ran a segment on the merge;
initially, it was not a merge. Porsche wanted to actually buy VW;
then VW turned it around, and wanted to buy Porsche.
The merge is the latest decision.
They were also wondering if the Porsche CEO would resign.
OOOPS!! lol!
$6.4 Billion is dollars they make per year, NOT cars. (Porsche was over $9 Billion)
I believe they sold 4.7 Million cars; anyone correct me if I am wrong.
I will now edit original post.
PS which, by the way, is very interesting: with 100,000 units versus VW 4.7 Million, Porsche
makes more money, north of $9 Billion, versus VW $6.4 Billion
Well, once again, the "$9 Billion" that Porsche earned last year was magic money. Porsche AG actually earned closer to $750 Million between car sales and engineering contracts. The rest was a complex stock options gambit that briefly drove the VW Group shares well north of $ $1,000 a share, for long enough to report it on their earnings statement before the VW Group shares settled way back to less than a 1/3 of that figure. Porsche HOLDING owns 51% of VW Group. Porsche AG ownes none. However, since Porsche HOLDING is now $9 Billion in short term debt, the only way for this to end and avoid Porsche AG from falling into the hands of creditors (Porsche AG would be the collateral for these loans) was for VW Group to "absorb" Porsche AG and resolve the debt from their $8 Billion cash reserves. Thus the "merger", which was really a way for the Porsche/Piech families to continue to maintain total control of both companies, without fear of banks stepping in to claim the big prize.
The control gambit proved to be suicidal for Weideking who spear-headed the stock gambit for Porsche HOLDING. He may be given a sword to fall on, as someone must pay for the failed gambit, and his last name is neither Porsche nor Piech.
It is not a shell game of simply moving cash from one pocket to another. Porsche HOLDING borrowed the money from banks in order to buy the stock. The collateral was essentially Porsche AG. The loans were based on earnings projections made more than 3 years ago, so the collapse of world banking last Fall could not have been anticipated.
In order to "save" Porsche AG, the Porsche/Piech families had to agree to rob the coffers of a very fat and profitable VW Group. Thus the "merger". And thus the cash saved for a rainy day will now be gone just when the sprinkles have started. This is serious for all parties and puts VW Group at great risk itself. With their cash reserves gone in an instant, and world car production falling, SOMEBODY high up is gonna swing.
TT:
Thank you for all the great info
What do you think of the impact on Porsche's quality, and direction?
Something doesn't feel .. good (for Porsche). I hope I am wrong.
Porsche AG will continue to build cars, race, and do contract engineering, as it has always done. In fact, with this this merger, the engineering resources of Porsche AG are now expanded to include VW Group. This means more work for the engineers, some platform sharing such as the Cayenne and the Panamera, and lots of trickle up and trickle down manufacturing economies. It takes Porsche AG away from the "boutique" image it sometimes has. With both Lamborghini and Bugatti in the fold, there are enough boutiques at VW Group. The real measure comes as they take on BMW directly in the performance sedan area. The foray into luxury sedans a few years ago was not well received by the masses , so Daimler-Benz is off the hook for a bit. The full BMW attack into performance luxury sedans is now being waged by AUDI A8/S8/RS8, the VW CC, and, and the Panamera - all worthy competitors in that market.
The funny thing, at least to me, is that a Porsche badged W12 phaeton would likely have sold and sold well. North of 50K you're always going to run into badge consciousness.
Great posts Mark, thanks!
I always wonder though, how much separation those entities have- Porsche, VW, Audi,
Lamborghini, Bugatti, Seat... did I miss any?
If they are all owned... should I say merged, I wonder what is common, and not.
It's not about separation. It is about joint development. Without VW Group, there would be no Bugatti Veyron. Without VW Group there would be no new Lamborghini's of any kind. Without VW Group there would be no Audi R8 for the street or R10's to dominate the tracks of the world. And there would be no Cayenne.
No matter
how
you feel about the existance of the Cayenne in the Porsche sales inventory, it is
because
of the Cayenne that there even
is
a Porsche inventory these past few years. Cayenne has more than carried the financial burden and saved Porsche AG from becoming an Oldsmobile - just history. Porsche AG is the most profitable car builder on the planet. And Cayenne is by far the most profitable vehicle in its line-up. If it is over-priced, it is only because the accuser cannot afford it. Those who can afford it buy it. Cayenne sales did not drop during the high gas prices last summer. In fact, in many parts of the world, sales increased. This means there are enough folks out there who like the fact that Porsche AG builds an SUV, that the price of gas is
not
a consideration in their purchase. And I have it on good authority that the Panamera market is there as well.
Often, it is the very folks on this forum who are the first to disparage any new Porsches. I remind you that this specific forum is dedicated to the 996, which has been out of production for 6 years. Since then, we have welcomed the Cayenne, the Cayman, the Panamera, and an entirely new series of 911 which itself has just about reached the end if
its
production life.
Not to worry...
To be worried about sharing of parts and technology is to completely ignore the entire history of Porsche automobiles. I suggest you read (or perhaps, reread) a good book about Porsche history from the beginning, through the middle, and into the current times. It will tell you the future.
OK Nostradamus
I am not ignoring a thing, and I do read re-read a few things about cars, and I do like Porsche's history.
My point was about separation as in decision making.
What I meant by separation was how a merge like this one,
affects each division or entity, when they design and create a car.
It is about joint development, as well as separate development.
I was wondering how much separation. Just how much, the future will tell.
Well, it is hard to tell the detail of the separation right now. I am personally hoping there is a lot less separation. It was good for Lamborghini and Bugatti. Lamborghini benefitted from Audi engineering, not the other way around. They now run Bosch electrics and engine management systems instead of Marelli. LOL!
Porsche AG has always worked extrememly close with VW/Audi/Seat (let's see, Porsche #1, 914, 924, Audi Avant TT) and many other carmakers - Chevrolet, Packard, Harley V-Rod, Daimler (500E was essentially a 928 sedan) to touch just a couple. They are first an engineering firm. This merger is a big step toward ensuring Porsche engineers will have plenty of work and plenty of capital for the future. I do not see it as a possible watering down of Porsche construction or management, but rather the other way.
My glass is half full on this one.
I agree with you here and am hopeful about the merger. With VW's support Porsche can concentrate on putting out superior product instead of creating what generates the highest profits.
This is much easier to do when you have the support of a larger organization that can help subsidize some of the costs for R&D that would normally be consumed by now redundant business functions.
I hope the joint development values that separation and Porsche history.
I wouldn't want a 911 that has the front looking like a Jetta,
and a 70 Horse Power engine, because the newly merged department
now focuses on economy above performance.
I would much prefer several 1000HP Porsches to choose from, when
we go shopping
I don't think that it is VW Group Development that you need to worry about when it comes to honoring history.
It think Porsche AG has your future all figured out: Panamera GT2RS - has the look, has the NEW look, has the big hp twin turbo V8 up front where it can be properly cooled with water and air, has the drive in the rear, shorten the chassis and lose two doors... Voila! 998...
And how convenient it would be if it was a 998 since it would harken back to the 928 which Porsche ran for 20 years...
That would finally open the door for the Cayman/S/Boxster/S, same price coupe or convertible with a Cayman GT3RS...
No room left there for old school design/technology (911). It is now the second decade of the 21st Century...
The merger doesn't mean cheap front engine/drive cars for Porsche from VW. Instead, it means Porsche is now free to persue the future of fast, expensive cars, by NOT having to make intro-level cars to cover survival from the bottom.
The dealer of the future returns to handling Porsche, Audi, VW, and (in some markets) Lamborghini and Bugatti, in a multiplex of free-standing but land sharing buildings. Have you noticed that brand new Porsche dealerships, and renovated older ones, all share the same architectual design as new/renovated Audi dealerships? Been happin' like that for five years now...
huh.
Think that business model won't work? Have you been reading about the new GM Corp: Chevrolet (VW), Buick (Audi), Cadillac (Panamera, Cayenne), and Corvette (Porsche 9xx/987). All in fewer, but closely-grouped, dealerships.
I think it's far more likely that the 911 move toward a more mid engined layout (as weight distributions have been over time) before they ever considered dropping it for a front (although I do love the front end of the panamera and would love to see, but not necessarily own, a 928 successor coupe based on it)
I think a decreasing number of purists would shy away from a mid engined 911, given the huge apparent proportion of PDK sales, AWD becoming so popular etc. Still, the performance of the 911 in the 996 and 997 generations was excellent, even compared to increasingly competent competition. They might not see any reason to mess with success at the roadcar level.
Over on the Panamera forum on this board, they have already been photo shopping Panameras with shorter nose, shorter tail, 2 doors, shorter wheel base. Some look pretty good to me. You may want to check those out.
Don't get me wrong, photoshops are great and all, and as i said I'd love to see them build a new 928 based on the panamera's front end styling, but there is just no way I could ever see Porsche dropping the 911 in any of our lifetimes. You're far more likely to see a mid engine VW based on porsche engineering than a front engined 911.
Best,
Hans
htny,
Well, I can hardly disagree with you about the mid-engine VW probability since several have been in the works for years.
For me there is nothing but good news here, since the merger means the Porssche/Piech families now own in one entity what was theirs before WWII. It was the English who took the VW company after WWII and gave it to other folks to run. Eventually, through stock purchases, the Porsche/Piech families have regained total control of both companies, and now are under one umbrella. This is actually almost a non-event, since most outsiders thought it was that way already many decades ago.
As for a 911 Panamera, keep in mind the 928 was supposed to replace the 911 way back in the mid-1970's. Now that the Panamera exists and all 911's are water-cooled now for a decade, I think the pressures of the market, environment, and legislation may eventually put an end to the flat 6 engine.
I could be wrong.
Thanks for the link Mark.
And that shows how Porsche factory workers are not happy with the merge:
they just went on strike (for the first time ever, I think)
and one more. since the talks fell apart, porsche is seeking a middle east sovereign wealth fund for help.
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/d...am_porsche_vw/
Like FIAT buying Chrysler. At least Porsche would become well funded. The perfect merger: Luxury performance cars and unlimited oil. The Porsche brand would go from being chic to shiek. Or you could say the move was like dancing chic to shiek.
LOL!
