Disappointing Acceleration

I haven't been completely satisfied with the acceleration of my C4-S to say the least. Don't misunderstand I am not a drag racer. The numbers say the car is pretty quick. But I just don't get the seat of the pants that I would like. Tonight I picked some pizza and as I pulled out onto the main road wound it up pretty good. I did this without looking at that tach. The windows were down and I just wanted to wing it and hear my exhaust. In cases like this where I don't look at the tach I just feel when it's redlined. Before I felt anything resembling being pushed into the back of my seat the rev limiter kicked in HARD! 1. Does anybody have similar feelings as far as seat of the pants? 2. I've never had a car's rev limiter kick in so harshly. Is the Porsche one more "obvious" than others? I like the car overall so far but I'm beginning to think it's not "exciting" enough for me. Acceleration is so-so, cornering is good but front end pushes too much, can't do powerslides. Yes I considered this when purchasing but I guess I underestimated how much I like looking out my side window when going through a turn when I want to. Thoughts?

Sounds like you need a GT2! When the rev limiter kicks in it cuts off fuel to the engine for a split second lowering you rpms to just below redline then it leaves you alone. If you still got the pedal to the metal, it does it again... At least that is how it feels like to me.

GT-2 that's what I was thinking!...or maybe a Turbo although I couldn't get the tail out like I would want. GT-3???

Not sure what you can do on the power wise (that you could feel) but you could have aftermarket suspension components installed, this could reduce the amount of understeer. I would think its hard to kick the tail out on a AWD car, even with the suspension, but at least it could be more balanced.

Lance, For what it's worth - the AWD system in your C4 does a great job of masking squat and "hiding" some of the seat of the pants feel of acceleration. I've always caught myself going faster than I thought in C4's.... As far as stepping the tail out, well, you should not expect much. The C4's system (as does all AWD systems) tends towards oversteer. It's a function of raw physics, and can't be negated completely.... J

Part of the lack of the lack of seat of the pants feel I believe is the ease with which the 996 goes up to redline. This is also partly due to the gearing. You have gone only so far before you have to shift into second, then third. You are so busy shifting, you sometimes forget you are already going at a fast clip, or that you got to that speed so fast. At least, that's how it is for me on the street. I sometimes cheat a bit just to get that seat of the pants feeling while I'm on the street. I tool along on third gear at about 2.5K RPM, then progressively but quickly go WOT to redline. Tha vario-cam is still a blast, and a definite kick in the seat of the pants!! I get my seat of the pants jollies on the track. The AWD of the C4S just loves to dig that car out of a tight corner, pull it around then blast it out towards the exit. The tighter and harder the turn, the better. Particularly if it's uphill. One such turn is the toe of the boot at Watkins Glen. Here's a video of one lap. The turn I'm talking about is just after the turbo lets me past: <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/palting/Watkins2.wmv" target="_blank">Watkins</a> . Try blasting out of some corners. You'll get that seat of the pants feel. Tail-wagging looking out the window power oversteer just isn't a 911 forte. The 911, however, WILL go through that corner faster .

Lance, i have pretty much the same feeling as u. i think the Turbo is enough. tried one few weeks ago and can't stop thinking of it after the day! i promise myself my next car Pcar will be a 997 TT =)

LanceK, I know exactly what you need. Have you ever driven the S54 333bhp M Coupe or M Roadster? Those things are absolute beasts. They accelerate roughly about the same as your car on paper, but boy, do you FEEL it in the M Coupe. Nothing is muted or masked off, just a raw, pure, concentrated driving experience. And once you start pushing, you better be paying attention. Modern 911 it ain't. It LOVES tail-out hooliganism. If you like sideways action, nothing begs for it more than an M Coupe/Roadster. Seriously. Drive it. This is your car.

you might try putting some 100 octane mix in there it does make a difference. I would have to agree with the acceleration comments. I have always noticed this when modifying a wide aray of cars: When you have a car that is smooth with the power delivery it is very decieving. If it is abrupt and harsh it is more invasive and smile inducing somewhat. The only real way is to use a chassis dyno or go with a g tech under many controlled conditions and averaged runs As for the tail happy fun, well you can get it out but for the 4 wheel variant you need turbo power, and giac modified power is all the better. Alignment is also key. Stock alignment is garbagiolo. I would start there you will be happier all the way around. Go -.5f, -1.5r. for street it works very well. When my c2 had the smaller rears 265's it was really easy to kick out and have fun, the 295's don't allow that as much but I can always do that when I want by agressive throttle stear and abrubpt turn in/suspension unsettling- as with most cars.

Take it out to the track and see how it goes for you. If it gives you that seat in the pants feeling then the car was the right choice but if not try something else. I think if you want seat of your pants feeling turbo'd cars are for you ala 996 turbo or others. But see how you do on the track with other cars in your C4S-you maybe surprized : ). Regards. Mike

Another thing that I do also is to not get on it until I get close to peak torque. I only floor it at about 4k + as I have a 99 and have less torque with my current ecu set to be changed soon The 3.6 in this area is sooo much better. More low end torque sooner.

SPR, As soon as you get the new ECU, be sure to give us a write up. I think I'll do the headers first before the chip but..... Also let me know where you got. I'm also very interested in this upgrade.

Seat of the pants is the absolutely WORST way to evaluate a car's acceleration. Most of the time it is not only inaccurate, it is completly wrong. There are tons of anecdotes about people making performance mods where you could "feel the POWER SURGE!!!" that actually reduced performance. If you have a big "hit" at a certain RPM, what you also have is a big "hole" in the power curve before the hit. That's why there's a hit. If you want to feel that hit, figure out a way to defeat the vario-ram and vario cam. Then you'll get that big power surge you are looking for. Your acceleration time will be slower but the car will "feel" faster as it "comes onto the cam."

When I want 'feel of the pants' acceleration I drive in first gear slowly climb to 4000 rpm, then let it drop to 3500rpm and then floor it. I guess the deceleration + acceleration provide that feeling your looking for. I love it when you can see your passengers head pressed up against the headrest... <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Thanks for the input guys.... MikeP...I understand what you're saying. I don't believe I'm a victim of those things. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter how fast the car is on paper, it's how it makes you FEEL...IMHO of course. If a car does 0-60 in 3 seconds but it's not exciting to drive then who cares? The point of driving is how the car feels in the seat of your pants, the wheel in your hands, the sound in your ears etc. If that wasn't the case then we could all sit around and race each other by comparing performance statistics. How much fun would that be?

Palting...great vid. Do you run Watkins often? I haven't run there but it's on my list. I assume you're from the Northeast? Are you involved with any PCA chapters in the area?

Nothing gives you seat of the pants horsepower like a nice throaty exhaust system. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LanceK: <strong>Palting...great vid. Do you run Watkins often? I haven't run there but it's on my list. I assume you're from the Northeast? Are you involved with any PCA chapters in the area?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks, Lance. Glad you liked it. That was my first time at Watkins Glen. It's a 5 hour drive for me, so I can't do it too often. I like it a lot, so I plan to make it at least once a year. I'm in the Cleveland area. I'm a PCA member, but I'll sleep around with any chapter that has a DE I can get to when I have the time to get to it .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Trojan Man: <strong>Nothing gives you seat of the pants horsepower like a nice throaty exhaust system. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Or if you're fortunate enough, a TT like yours <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> My car felt especially slow after testing a 996TT ...which leads me to believe a GT3 will only hold over some of us for a few months before we'd feel the need for more *performance* (as some here like to put it). The TT is your only real option on the upgrade path if you really want more kick than the standard 996 or even the upcoming GT3.

You can't be everything to everyone. You either be A: less hp and more sports car feel like the 993 OR B: more hp and less sports car feel like a E55. What does Porsche do, they make a combo of both, ie: Less HP and less sports car feel! The 996 has has a loser combo. That is the F'n problem. It is a loser combo check it out. In option A sports car feel is the advantage. In option B hp is the advantage. Option C is made up of 2 DISADVANTAGES - and that, I'm afraid is what a 996 is made of - unless you spend gobs of money to do what the Factory should have done instead of please all those Soccer moms. Sorry to say, but its true _ Low HP and Grand Touring Feel. You guys can talk all you want about track feel or what ever, but I think what we all want is sports car feel, and we arent getting it. Hopefully the GT3 has it or it will be gone too.

OK, I guess I have to bite. Just this once. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> A: less hp and more sports car feel like the 993 OR B: more hp and less sports car feel like a E55. What does Porsche do, they make a combo of both, ie: Less HP and less sports car feel! The 996 has has a loser combo. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">RR, do you know what you are talking about? Combines the less HP and less sports? Last I looked, the 993 had 285 HP and the 996 320 HP. Less sports like a 4 door sedan? Have you driven or riden in one of those sedans? Sports car feel. I get it plenty in my "loser" 996 C4S, thank you very much.

.

Guess that makes us even. I don't get yours either.

Does anyone know how to get all those soccer cleat marks off the back of my painted sports seats? Now I'm glad I didn't order the DVD video screens in place of the seat back pockets. I just wished I had bought something that feels more like a sports car than a Porsche...does anyone (except RR) know what that might be? Thanks for the help, -DT

The statement that Porsche doesn't give a sports car feel is ridiculous. Now if were talking power then yes Porshe needs to make some pretty big strides. People always say that Porsche is a handling car. But theres no reason not to offer more power and retain the handling. People spending 70-110k on a SPORTS car shouldn't have to do all the tricks you guys are mentioning (decelerate then accelerate) to feel some POWER!

I also have a C4S and think it has more than enough power for a sports car. If you really want to feel acceleration get a motorcycle. When I want an adrenaline rush I ride my Yamaha R1.

I agree with caneaddict, even though I haven't a clue what a "caneaddict" is (?). I drove a '99 Viper GTS from new to '02. Would eat even a TT's lunch all day in the real world, cost a little less than a typical '99 C2. Didn't even come close to providing the driving involvement and satisfaction that my '03 C2 does. But a C2C4C4S should have 400HP for 75-100 large. We all know that the chassis is up for it. The bump to 320HP is just marginal at near sea level, and only in the car's lightest form, IMO. If I still lived at 7000', I'd still have my Viper. Or at least put the car on a serious diet, guys. Porsche may be very profitable, but they lost a lot of potential sales due to these shortcomings, particularly with the 3.4L's. I'm one of them. Are you copying, Stuttgart?

JOL...I had a 1 liter superbike and quite frankly was disappointed with it. Sure it was fast, but not like I imagined. I think that had to do with the riding position though. Since you're not upright like a car you don't get pressed back as much. Dirk...I completely agree. Porsche should have at least 350 to 400 horsepower at this point. But I actually don't care about the numbers. I've driven cars that have 250 to 300 that "feel" faster and put a smile on my face during acceleration more than the 996. It should also be noted about the lack of torque. This is a major part of the equation. IMHO the Porsche is mediocre on power and poor on torque. I think the car gets up to speed really fast, it just doesn't feel like it. Maybe it's just a fact that the car is so damn smooth that it's deceiving. I had a turbocharged car once and I think once you feel that top end rush it's hard to go back.

If you want seat of the pants feel get an American car, that feel doesn't just come from a hole in the power curve. Displacement, and torque help a lot. I'm sure that will start a war here!! Seriously though, I've always loved Porsches, the style, the heritage, and let's face it, that is a lot of what you pay for. Ferrari doesn't even make a car in the 5 digit range. I figure the Porsche that will satisfy me will either have to be a GT3, in the six digit range, or a 993 Turbo, which is more outdated and could be very costly too.

Our 2002 Coupe's acceleration does not compare to a cat shot, and she doesn't stop like being trapped. But for a car, she's powerful enough.

Have you tracked your car yet? The accerator pedal is a no brainer, it's the brake pedal that is the hardest to master. Do the PDE and see if your thoughts are the same....

I haven't tracked my car just yet. I am sure it will open many attributes of the car that you just can't appreciate on the street. However, I still drive my car daily and would like it to be just as exciting but in a different way. I don't drive wildly or just want to blast away in a straight line. I just miss things like making a left onto a street from a parking lot etc. and as I'm arcing into the lane feeling the back tires just slightly breaking loose, hard acceleration, and good noise of course. This can all be done without going over 60 mph. I am just feeling like my car is lacking in this area. Funny, I'm actually thinking about running down to the Chevy dealer and test driving the yellow Z06 they have out front just to see what happens. Although I expect it to be fast etc. I'm sure it will realize I STILL made the right choice. Shame about that Corvette huh? Someone once said "The people who want them can't afford them, and the people who can afford them don't want them". I looked at the Z06 since I can get one for invoice (friend owns dealer). But I just couldn't get around these things: 1. Interior is just not up to par. 2. Worried about squeaks and rattles (Although supposedly the Vette is good in this area now, but not sure after 20K). 3. The "Guido" factor (If you're from N.Y. you know what I mean). 4. Being a member of PCA and Rennlist was a huge factor in my decision to enhance the overall fun factor of my purchase.

I looked at a 'Vette once just for yucks. Mygawd the cheesy salesman thought it was a Ferrari! After peeking under the hood at the Camaro motor, cut my finger on a bit of cheap Pontiac-like interior plastic flash. Turned the key a click, was greeted with a Chevy commercial (!). Didn't even bother to drive it. Don't care how fast it goes. I like 'Vettes, but haven't seen one worth owning in about 36 years. -DT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">1. Interior is just not up to par.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That is, perhaps, my biggest complaint about my car. Now, you don't have a 99 w/o full leather, so you're not experiencing the same plasticky goodness that I am, but the Corvettes that I've been in have been better than mine. And how cool is the HUD on the Corvette? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">2. Worried about squeaks and rattles (Although supposedly the Vette is good in this area now, but not sure after 20K).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, Vette's are better than they used to be, but just read all of the complaints here on rennlist about rattles and squeaks in 996's. I've got rattles in the dash and sunroof. You either get used to it or fix it. Same on both cars. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">3. The "Guido" factor (If you're from N.Y. you know what I mean).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm not from NY but I know what you mean. My wife has successfully vetoed the Vette purchase using this as her primary argument. Not sure how long her luck will last. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">4. Being a member of PCA and Rennlist was a huge factor in my decision to enhance the overall fun factor of my purchase.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">To each his own. I met a Z06 driver in my neighborhood that invited me to participate in his track activities with he and his friends. Last I checked, Rennlist wasn't kicking anyone out if they didn't own a Porsche. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that both cars have faults. But a big, big plus on the Corvette's side is the engine. It's a big car (bigger than I'd like), but the engine and the sounds are just amazing. And I only test drove a normal C5 coupe! Personally, I don't want to drive a Z06 until I'm ready to buy it. Because I know I will want it after the test drive.

Lance, Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way... If you want the tail to break loose, there are 2 ways to go: 1- Add more power. But this is expensive and turbocharging/supercharging a C4S is not what I would recommend at all. 2- Decrease the contact patch of your rear wheels. Buy yourself a set a set of skinny wheels you would put on when you get the urge to slip and slide. But then I am not sure even that would work, as the C4S will most likely take power away from the slipping wheel(s) and transfer it to the other wheels. No, I would have to come back to my original recommendation: get a GT2 (and then get skinny wheels...)

It's hard to find the perfect car. It's funny how some people zeroed in on one aspect and magnified it. Acceleration...I'm not looking for a quarter miler...just want to FEEL pushed back in my seat and HARD when I want it. Throttle steering...I'm not looking to do doughnuts in a parking lot, I just want to be able to throttle steer when I want to. Feeling the back end step out of line even if only slightly is fun to me. I have the GHL exhaust so the sound is pretty good and don't have any issues with that. By the way passed that yellow Z06 at the dealer twice today and didn't stop... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Actually I was busy but would like to try it just for kicks.

I don't know if this is a minority opinion but; I think my car is pretty darn fast. 0-60 in 4.9 sec. works for me. Yeah, do I want more? Heck yeah, More is my middle name. If you're not havin' fun in a 996 maybe there's a problem a hot car can't help. Anyway, it's a beautiful day in Central PA and I'm going to jump in my loser car and drive slow. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Even if you add intake, header, exhaust, and ECU I doubt you would feel much more of the acceleration but the sound will definately improve.

Seat of the pants feel. How about a crotch rocket? I'd love to get one one of these days. Gotta get my kids through college first, though.

Right on Palting! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LanceK: <strong> By the way I passed that yellow Z06 at the dealer twice today and didn't stop... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Actually I was busy but would like to try it just for kicks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You should, they're fun. I was one of those who defended the Z06 on the Vette Vs. Porsche tread. I think it's the ultimate 'joyride' car...you can break traction and steer with the throttle in gears 1-3. The handling is well-nigh perfect, I wouldn't touch the chassis if I owned one. Reasons why I don't own one: 1) The engine sounds and behaves like it's strained at redline or approaching redline. 2) In the interest of lightness, they removed a lot of sound insulation...For my use, the interior is way too loud for a daily driver. 3) The hood is too long relative to the low seating height. It can be frustrating trying to aim the car at the apex. 4) Poor residual value and questionable longevity. 5) The Guido factor...although many Z06 owners I've met where pretty sophisticated and know their sh*t.

lance, i agree with you. i have owned various porsches, most recently a 99 996c2 and a 2001 c4-i loved the cars, but i never thought that they gave me the pop that i wanted. then i got an 03 tt and i got the acceleration that i was missing. i know that it's a few more bucks, but you should be able to lease one for 39 months for around $1400 or so. a z06 is almost as quick for alot less money, but it rattles like an s.o.b. and has a plastic interior and crummy thin leather seats. it also doesn't ride 1/2 as well. you get what you pay for.

I have the same feeling. What you need is turbo, a modified 996 turbo.

Sounds like the Turbo might be the trick. I'm afraid to drive one now for fear of liking it too much LOL. I'll just blame it on you guys...

Late reply to old post! You need an X-51! Mine feels like a 993TT,( I know its not as fast,but its close),I have sworn off racing- about a month ago, however I will state the following: Before I stopped racing on the street I absolutely smoked a C-5 'vette. He didn't have a chance. An aquintance has a supercharged '02 Camaro SS. We raced (rolling start) and I wasted him by at least 4 car lengths. He claims 420HP,Who knows. If you want seat of the pants order a 911 with X-51.My previous car was an '01 c-2 coupe which I dearly loved. -until I got my '03 X-51. There isnt even a remote comparison in acceleration.I was going to "mod" it ,(thinking this before I took delivery).I am a horsepower/speed junkie and I feel no need to do this. Don't forget that a C-4 is a heavy car! Also I fill the tank with 95 to 96 octane(depending on how I mix it). -blustem

bluestem... Good point! I'll see if I can get a ride in one and see what I think. Since I'm only about 6 months into my lease I have a long time to go and not many realistic options to get out of my lease.

lance, next time pay cash. it'd great to able to change your mind about what car to drive whenever you want. break the lease slavery when you can... save! and fahren rob: are you from the east coast? ie the Guido factor? we always referred to the "Vito Jr." factor for vettes.....

Hah! No, born and rasied in So Cal. BTW, I am half 'Gerry' and half 'Guinea' so maybe there is something to the Guido factor

I agree with Sam-P. Get an S54 MRoadster. I sold mine to get the 996 and there are many days that I regret the decision. I had a Dinan 3.36 diff in it and you could spin the rears in second gear and do power slides until the tread came off. The car,however, is a handful on a track. The rear end keeps wanting to lead the way!