Audio Help (again)

A while back, I got some advice on audio upgrades from forum members. I've now done a few things to my '03 996 coupe and it's signficantly better than stock, but not really really great. Can anyone give me some more advice on what might be preventing this system from really sounding clean and mean? Here's what I've got going on now... Clarion DXZ535 CD/receiver Diamond Audio 4-channel amp Focal speakers all around Professional installation (including deadening door panels, etc) by Paris Audio I obviously realize that adding a subwoofer + another amp is the next logical step and should make a big difference. I'm planning on having Paris Audio do a box in the passenger footwell with a pair of 5"s or an 8" (least expensive solution whiel giving decent performance according to them). One other thing, however, does the CD/receiver unit make much difference in the system as a whole? As you can tell, I'm not using the amp in the radio. I had an Eclipse before, and we changed them because I wanted an aux input for an IPOD. Clarion unit accommodated this and it looks a LOT better since the LEDs can be adjusted to match the orange ones in the rest of the dash lights. This unit was not very expensive - but is it any good? Does it matter? Note, I've spent about $2800 so far!

Suggestion. Borrow a Lexus LS430 with ML. Park it beside your car in a closed and quiet garage. Now listen, with car doors and windows fully closed, to the same CD content in both cars. Exception: If the Lexus ML system doesn't sound "right" to you then just go out and burn up, with matches, a few more $100 bills.

Clarion/Diamond/Focal.... If I were operating, owned, an automotive audio specialty shop I suspect those are names that would yeild me the best profit margins but not necessarily the best "sounds" for my customer. I am well aware that I am not anywhere close to being "up" on these things, but the only name I recognize is Clarion and the last I knew they were at the bottom of the barrel.

First install the subwoofers and see, because the subwoofers will make a big difference, but I recommend at least two 8" subs in a sealed box/boxes. Since you have the coupe, the space behind the rear seats is the perfect spot (not the footwell), and you can even fit two 10" if you want since 8" subs for me fall a bit short for the low end spectrum. The head unit you have will have the least influence as a whole, less than the correct size/brand/location speakers (Focals are regarded amongs the best in Europe, along with MB-Quartz, Boston Acustics, Polk, etc) & amp. If you go to my simple web page you can see some pics of my two 10" subs and the enclosure behind the seats to get an idea, http://members.rennlist.com/raptor

Sub-woofers... I guess some folks really like that vibratory feeling! Anyone out there ever taken an audio spectrum analyzer to a musical event and call tell these Sub-woofer champions where the heart of the music lies??

ER996: Couple of things. First, DO NOT listen to wwest, as he has a habit of trying to start trouble by intimating that high-end stereo is for high-end fools. Trust me, though, that the guy wears hearing aids and listens to AM talk-radio full-time. Second, I can't imagine why the system doesn't sound clean, as the components you have should kick some serious tail (although I have to admit that I don't know that amp well). I have a Paris system, and it's too loud to really listen to full blare. Now, I did opt for the footwell sub, with dual 5" drivers, so that may have something to do with it, since you cross-over the mid-drivers higher and therefore spend more of the power driving the highs (which takes a lot less energy) and use the sub amp channel alone for the lows. This is the Bose way of doing things. For comparison's sake, I actually kept the stock Porsche/Becker 220, and from what I've been told yours should sound much better. But mine still sounds pretty amazing, so I would think that the problem does not lie with your head unit. The sub system will also add a parametric EQ to your system, that'll increase the sound considerably because you can tune the system much more finely. I'm really happy with my system, although it does need some fine-tuning because it's too 'left-side' heavy. But at the price Paris charges they should spend as much time as necessary making it perfect... hopefully that's the case here (and with you, too)...

ZeeZee - thanks for the reply. You've got the perfect system to compare against and that's helpful. Good to know your opinion that the head unit isn't roadblocking me. I think the subs (and the EQ to a certain extent) would make a huge difference and the great sounding stereos in other P-cars that I auditioned while at Paris when they were working on my car all had decent subs. I think you're also right that I'll have cleaner mids and highs when I take some of the bass duties off the shoulders of the existing woofers. Is your sub set up in the passenger footwell or behind the rear seats? Did Paris install it? Are you running a separate amp for the sub? Thanks again for the advice, ER

Absolutely nothing against high end sound systems. In environments wherein their cost is justified by the overall listening experience. I also enjoy nothing more than blasting down the highway in my 78 Targa at 90+ with the sound system up at a level to enjoy. But. I'm old enough and mature enough to recognize, and acknowledge, that my 78 Targa, or my 01 C4 will never yeild concert hall quality sound reproduction in the typical driving environment. So I'm willing to put some money into the sound system, about $2500 in the 78, mostly Kenwood, but it is useless to attempt the impossible. The factory Digital system that came in my 01 C4 seems to perform at least equivalent to the 78, and that's good enough for me. Am admission. I am very put off when people start talking sub-woofers because I so often find that my own listening experience is spoiled by some nearby, next lane, youngster/idiot with GRAND sub-woofer operating at full volume. That's not music. that a vibratory experience. Oh, I don't remember just at the moment what the maximum output of my 78 system is, something on the order of 100W/channel (4), but unlike others I can't tell you if my ears could stand full volume since I have never had reason to go there, or even close. 100 watts/channel is to accommodate the musical peaks, not the mean.

ER: Yes, Paris installed it. They need to tweak it, but it's pretty good as is - knocks the socks off of most people that hear it. I have a JL 5-channel amp, so I don't need a separate amp for the sub, but I imagine that a separate would be a bit better in terms of punch and quality. I'd be happy to have you listen to it if you think it might help you to decide what to do next. Let me know - I'm mid-Wislhire mostly, but we could always meet at Paris if you want...

Wwest, hope you are not saying that subswoofers are for "folks that really like that vibratory feeling", cause thats an ignorant comment if I ever heard one. Why don't you go at a car audio competition and drop that one to the experts in high end stereos Guess you never heard the difference in sound characteristics between an 8" sub and a 10"? or the difference in sound in a sealed enclosure and a vented one, a bandpass or an isobaric? so stick to what you do know

Not to familiar with the amp or the headunit, but Focal makes a pretty good speaker. Does your amp have any built in cross overs for a low end cut off? If so, perhaps these crossover points can be adjusted. Adding a sub with a good amp is also not a bad idea. By doing this you are taking the load of producing the lowest freqs. off the Focal speakers allowing them to better reproduce the sound freqs. they were designed for. Adding a dedicated sub amp will also take the load of producing the low freqs off the main amp... making more power available for producing the freqs the Focal speakers were designed for. I went with two 8" subs behind the back seats, but a single 8" in the footwell would be a nice improvement too. Wwest... I do not think anybody here is claiming concert hall sound quality, especialy in a Porsche. Peoples ears are unique and some are more sensitive than others. It might sound like the church choir to you, but it may sound like a cat in heat to others. I have heard the Lexus ML system, I was not overly impressed. However, the name recognition is a great marketing gimmick for Lexus as the Bose name is for Porsche. If you are happy with the sound system in your 01 C4 and your Lexus, then more power to you. FWIW, I will agree with you about how annoying it is to be sitting at a stop light listening to the next guy pound out his bass. So on that note... those with subs, please be considerate when going through neigborhoods and sitting at lights as many folks do not care to hear your bass. However you should not let what others do in their car with their subs sway your opinion about them. I used to feel the same way years ago, before I heard the difference that adding a sub makes. I issue you this challenge... add a sub to your 78 and then come back and tell us that it is not an improvement to the whole system (esp. when compared to your 01).

Carlos also makes a good point. The size of the sub and type of enclosure can make a significant difference in the way the sub sounds. A good box builder will tailor the sub enclosure to the desired sound. A lot of the folks that you hear coming up the block are pushing multiple 12", 15", 18" subs at 500-1000 watts RMS. IMHO, a good musical sub only needs to be 8" to 10" in a well designed sealed enclosure.

Its that way here too with some youngsters on top of that, they roll down the windows so you can also enjoy not onle the bass thumping of their 15" bandpass or isobaruics but also the whole spectrum of frequencies ... Its pathetic! If subwoofers where sportcars, you have the Porsches & Ferrari's on one hand where the appropiate size/enclosure and tweek setup of sub's allow you to listen to Puccini like if you were sitting in the middle of the audience live, or you have your Fast&Furious crowd on the other hand where you listen to harcore-techno or gangsta' rap like if you where listening to printing press through a stethoscope

Audio experts.... I referenced the Lexus ML system not because it is all that impressive as such, but because IMMHO it represents about the best one can do, should do, attempt to do, in the automotive environment at a reasonable expense, considering also the level of externally sourced sound deadening this car has. Not too many years ago it was extremely desireable to have a really BIG sub-woofer in any high end sound system. The BIG part was there to compensate for the relatively poor voice coil magnets and the then fairly short "throw" of the voice coil itself. I remember that back in about 1961 I personally constructed something called a "sweet sixteen" sub-woofer system, consisting of sixteen relatively inexpensive (cheap, really) speakers within a "tuned" and sound deadened enclosure. For that day and time the bass response of that system was truly impressive. Back then if you were to tell me that you could duplicate that performance with two 8" speakers in a tuned enclosure I would have bet not, but not today. Nowadays we have 6" speakers with small and light "rare earth" voice coil magnets equivalent to those 2 pound sub-woofer magnets of yesteryear and voice coil efficiencies and travel depths that rival any sub-woofer on the market today. My 1992 Lexus LS400 does have a sub-woofer mounted in the trunk through the rear package shelf, along with speakers in each door mounted in tuned enclosures. I would bet you today that a simple and inexpensive upgrade of the speakers in the doors would allow me to eliminate the sub-woofer (and any restrictive bandpass components) and 8 of ten of you would not be able to discern the difference, and 99 of 100 at a comfortable highway speed. And I can't believe anyone considering themselves truly an Audio sound reproduction expert would bother showing up, absent really serious compensation, at ANY automotive audio competition site. Just plain the wrong venue for audio EXPERT judgements. I've only been to one of those in recent times and it seemed to me that the real competition was 1, about how LOUD you could play your system without any readily discernable distortion, or 2, how much bass you could produce. 2500 watts of audio in a car, YOU tell me how that makes sense!

You make some good points wwest, but I'll respectfully disagree with you on a few others. Having been an IASCA judge in a former life, as well as a high-end carfi designer I can tell you that while not easy nor cheap, great sound in a car is certainly possible. All it takes is good design. Back to the original point: sounds like the major thing lacking in your (ER996) system is equalization. Focal drivers are great and although I don't recognize the amp, if Paris sold it to you it's probably quite nice. I would add a sub and then some decent EQs and get someone to tune the thing with an RTA. Then you help them tweak it to your liking. It's analogous to a guitar: even a Martin D45 will sound crappy when it's not tuned. -Paul

ettsn is absolutely right.

great sounds in a car... Sitting still in a relatively quiet area, I will wholeheartedly agree, but underway at highway speeds? No chance!!! But then maybe you're more right than I. The great sounds will still be there at typical highway speeds, you just won't be appreciating them at the overall listening level you paid for. John Phillip Sousa fans "excepted".

Wwest, Guess what side of the frequency spectrum you loose when the car is at highway speeds, and guess what frequencies the subwoofer helps reinforce. If there is a diffrence between a stereo with subwoofer than without its gets even more noticeable when the car starts moving, unless all you listen to is the AM radio.

Well, I appreciate the advice from everyone - even wwest who's entitled to an opinion. I do agree with Carlos regarding teh loss of low end at highway speeds. Although at that speed as well as when driving with the windows down you are not in an optimal listening environment, this is reality folks. I will be at highway speeds and I do listen with the windows down all the time (although not pumping gangsta rap through the neighborhood on a regular basis. Ok, sometimes, but that's a different story From the other comments, I think I need to add the subs/eq retuning first to hear the difference. I think part fo the problem now is the tuning itself. I'll ask Paris whether it's better or cheaper to upgrade the amp to a 5-channel, or add a small seperate dedicated amp for the subs. Zeezee - thanks for the recommendations and the offer to meet. I'm going to call Paris for some prices. I work/live in Hollywood so if it isn;t too inconvenient for you, I may email you to see if I could come by or meet at Paris to hear your set up. Particularly since it's so close to how mine (should) be. Any other thoughts or experience from anyone regarding the headunit? Anyone have experience locating the sub in teh passenger footwell versus behind the rear seats? Seems like behind the rear seats is preferable but more expensive.

Look at this post http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/r...=009860#000007 or this one https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...152#post659152 If you really are attempting to get great sound you need sub especially in the cabriolet and as ettsn so adequately stated you can put in a Dynaudio, Focal Utopia, a $4000 Alpine EQ/Brax and Butlers and if you don't tune it you'll have mud... And please NO FREE AIR OR PORTED SUB BOXES... Sealed boxes properly sized and reinforced... it's that simple... FYI on that subject and sub in general I quote an email excerpt from Focal's US design team: Ported boxes do not sound good in cars because they have the wrong shape of frequency response. A ported box is appropriate for really huge vehicles like Suburban, Excursion and full size vans. Car acoustics have a rising efficiency below about 50 hertz dependent upon the interior volume. Below about 50 hertz the efficiency rises at about 12 decibel per octave. The ideal speaker would be a mirror image of the car acoustics. This means a closed box with Qts = 0.7 and �3 decibel around 50 hertz. Vented box speakers go lower than 50 hertz which cause an artificial bump, below the port tune frequency they roll off at 24 decibel per octave which reduces the deepest bass. Power handling also falls to only 10 watts below the port tune frequency. This might be good for bass freak music but terrible for symphony, jazz and rock ! It would be much better to use an equalizer to make the �artificial bump� according to your personal taste. The optimum sealed box for Focal 5WS is 180 cubic inches with �3 decibel at 86 hertz. Considering maximum cone travel, subwoofer amplifier size should be75 watts. Check out the new 8 inch 21V2 subwoofer. It is our smallest TRUE subwoofer. Sealed box volume is 870 cubic inches. -3 dB is at 41 hertz. Considering maximum cone travel, recommended amplifier size is 200 watts. ONE 21V2 woofer moves as much air as three 5WS woofers...... Also, consider the 165W or 165W3 systems. The 6.5 inch woofer needs 870 cubic inches. -3 dB is at 70 hertz. Considering maximum cone travel, amplifier size should be 75 watts. Maximum loudness is identical to one 5WS.

Conundrum... I could tell you, quite factually, that highway tire noise is equated to "white noise" (wide spectrum) by the industry, but I really like your "losing the bass" even better. Or at least I like arguing against your point more. You don't "lose" ANY base at all "at speed", you simply lose the ability to hear it because its being overshadowed by other audible sources. So you react by "turning up" the Bass! And now what you're hearing is about as far from faithful reproduction of the original source material as you're likely to get. But thanks for making, accentuating, my point.

ER996: Your components are very good - highly regarded in the industry. You definitely need a rear deck sub box - otherwise everything will sound "thin". The sub box will completely change the sound of your system. Go back to Paris audio and have them play a good system for you - then have them switch off the subs . You'll hear what you're missing! Or you could have them temporarily wire a sub box into your system, just to hear what it sounds like before you buy. Let us know what you decide. Myk

Obviously, that goes without saying, and is what I meant by "loosing the bass" i.e. loosing the ability to hear it. Next time I'll try to word things a bit more clearly for you. And FYI you loose more ability to hear the low freqs than the high freqs when the car is moving, that is obvious to anyone with a minimally trained ear and we have all experienced that, especially cabriolet drivers, just take a pair of head sets in a noisy room, initially you hear thw whole spectrum clearly including the bass but and start to move then away from your ears, what freq's do you stop hearing?...thebass. If a car with a normal stereo at high volume goes by you at speed with his windows down (if there is an object between you and the source of the sound then it favors the bass but thats not the case inside the car), what frequencies of his stereo make it through the ambient noise better to your ears?...the high pitch sounds of the voice of the singer, guitars, ect. Nope, you react by turning up the volume at which point the stereo without the subwoofer will not be able to reproduce the low end of the spectrum nearly as well and therefore sound, using your own very words, "as far from faithful reproduction of the original source material as you're likely to get" or "thin" as Myk just described it. No, thank you

I have to agree with Carlos here. As a disclaimer, while i have installed several subwoofers in some of my vehicles, I the type of person who very much dislikes prominent bass and always keeps it to a neutral setting. For home audio, I much prefer acoustic suspension designs like NHT's due to the neutral, non prominent bass they produce. The way I see it, its simple. The problem: Trying to faithfully reproduce a recording accross the *entire* frequency spectrum with very high ambient noise, ie car in motion. The solution: As system that has a flat frequency response at sound volumes high enough to overcome ambient noise. If you've spent any amount of time tinkering with audio, even home audio, you know that higher volumes for low frequencies requires large displacement of air which translates into larger surface area speakers or high excursion speakers, otherwise known as subwoofers. Point being in a 996, the stock 6.5" drivers in the doors are incapable of reproducing the lower part of the frequency spectrum at high volume, a statement that any RTA would bear out. So if you want a flat, full spectrum frequency response, you need to add a sub. Now having said all that, if I can get a good price, I'm about to buy a 2003 C4S this weekend with factory sport exhaust. Why I would want to drown out the sound of that engine with a stereo I can't comprehend :-)

Congrats on the C4S Potxoli, you must be looking foward to this weekend BTW in relation to the subs, I think you have explained it much more clearly than I in your post, thanks.

You are on the right track to consider a sub and another amp. This will make ALL the difference in your car. Stay with the Daimond series amps they are very good. I have 2 8's in a sealed enclosure behind the rear seats and 3 Alpine amps. I have 1, 4 channel and 2 monoblock amps for the subs. You won't regret it as they will provide all the fill you are lacking now.