89 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCH2005 996 C4S Bore Scoring and rebuild info
Leading reported evidence
Fill with the
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Did change the oil at the assigned date and filled with the recommended GP-1 oil.
Leading evidence: 'Fill with the' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Clean other than the usual smuck' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I shipped my 2004 Boxster s to Jake and he installed his IMS Solution and a lot of other upgrades for me.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
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Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Your inciteful videos have changed my driving habits for the good of my motor, wallet, and sanity.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Turning left on the green light from the outside lane I noticed a semi in front of me going slowly, looked in the rear view mirror, changed lanes to the left, looked again behind me and realized "the traffic is coming pretty fast...wasn't it."
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Turning left on the green light from the outside lane I noticed a semi in front of me going slowly, looked in the rear view mirror, changed lanes to the left, looked again behind me and realized "the traffic is coming pretty fast...wasn't it."
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
89 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
2 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
My 2005 996 C4S was shipped to Flat6 Innovations for an engine rebuild due to scored cylinder liners on 5-26-19 by Reliable Carriers. I am going to try to keep a log here as the rebuild progresses.
I will start with some history. Bought car June 2014 with 52,600 and had no personal knowledge of Porsches. No service or maintenance records. Car was in Houston, TX area from 2004 to 2013. It was traded in and did the dealer/auction/dealer deal and I bought it from the guy who had it for about eight months. Nothing of note in CarFax. Had a PPI done without a pan drop due to lack of knowledge. Nothing found related to the engine. Previous owner said it did use some oil. I noticed minimal oil usage the first two years and had read that some of these cars use some oil and was not concerned. In addition the first two years the engine made no unusual noises. On occasion would get a puff of whitish smoke on first start of day which would clear up immediately, driver side tailpipe only. Drivers side exhaust pipe was more sooty than passenger side. Regular oil and filter changes plus car was stored over the winter.
In 2017 noticed small but distinct "ticking" sound on passenger side of engine which was louder when engine was hot. As the season went on the sound became more noticeable. Also notice increased oil consumption approaching 32oz added over the summer. Also noticed some driver side tailpipe spitting on initial start that appeared to be water and carbon. This symptom would go away before the time the SAI would time out, so less than 1 1/2 minutes. This symptom disappeared. Tested AOS thinking maybe pulling oil up during infancy failure. AOS tested perfect...right in the "sweet spot" per Jake.
Start of 2018 season after initial oil change noticed sound was less compared to end of season 2017. As season progressed noise grew louder and, again, more noticeable when hot. Added 12oz of oil in approx. 350 miles. Got a CEL for P0306 #6 cylinder misfire. Ran rough but cleared up and light went off. Next time out after sitting for a few weeks got another CEL same code. Thinking coils and plugs changed both. Found three of the six coils cracked. Two with ginormous cracks! However #6 spark plug was fouled with oil and bridged over with "oily-carbony" looking deposits. Boroscoped through spark plug holes and found significant scoring in #6 and lesser but still significant scoring in #5 easily seen with pistons at bottom dead center. Did not drop pan to view from below as mine had progressed up into the bore at this time.
So that is the sad history. I can tell you by 2017 I had read enough here to be suspicious and in denial at what was causing the noise...and knew it was NOT a lifter.
A pic of the scoring:
Going to move up to 3.8. Engine is named "Street Performer". I don't track nor AutoX and this option keeps the car stock appearing. My car is the last year for the 996 and one of 728 C4S produced for 2005. Doesn't make it rare or super valuable but kinda unique and wanted to keep it "stock appearing".
54,752 miles when it was loaded on the truck. Yeah, I know didn't put many miles on it in 4.5 years!
Will u have an agreed value with insurance company? Would hate to back it into a corner or get rear ended.
Sounds likes it's going to be a very nice car.!
This is disheartening to see. Southern car, low miles, nothing that would have indicated a problem other than bad luck. Sorry to hear. Glad you are giving it a new lease on life with a proper motor.
I have traditional insurance and will cross that bridge if I need to. My feeling about a car is I will never get my money back that I have put in it. I just enjoy what it is while it is healthy. I don't drive all that aggressively and can't control a rear end event from some dork who was texting!
Thanks! It is a nice car now and will be nicer when I get it back from Flat6I.
Agreed. It is disheartening, but it is what it is(and I hate that saying). Luck of the draw, I guess. I'll just get it fixed and drive on. Lack of cold weather starts is not the only contributing factor possible in scoring. As I said in another thread I'm just grateful and fortunate to be able to send the car to a guy I believe to the best at rebuilding these engines. I guess you could call me a fan boy, but I have done a lot of reading, researching and talking to the Flat6 folks and am convinced I made the right decision for me. So how about an educated fan boy?
As you said... at the end is only a question of $$. If you like the car, you are doing the right thing, and you are going to get back a even better and upgraded car. Look it from the positive point of view!
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No Prob. Seeing the video and then hearing your story scares the crap out of me. I have a seal Grey 04 C4S Cab that was sold new in Texas and then moved to Florida about 4 year after new. I got it exactly a year ago with 62k miles on the clock (now has 68k) from the local Porsche dealer. Your car and story is like a twin of my car. Just hoping it doesn't become that close of a twin. As for a fellow Fan Boy, I have been a mechanic for over 20 years, I have done a ton of research. I do EVERYTHING that Jake recommends in his videos and on this forum. If i ever have the same fate as you, you can bet your butt my car will be towed to him for the engine rebuild. Knowing he is the best and the product he will turn out is worth the wait and the money.
Sorry to hear about the misfortune. Glad you're in the position to have it fixed though!
One positive thing I see is you have a very desirable chassis. Low-mileage, C4S, 2005, and will now have a properly built 3.8L engine. It will be a car enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium will consider. The kind of buyer who shops at EAG for cars.
Will follow along!!
Never did see any shiny fob's in the drained oil during the "sunlight test". Filter media was always clean and non-sparkly(checked in sunlight too). Early in ownership went with the LN spin-on adapter and magnetic oil plug which was clean other than the usual smuck. I did not do oil analysis(big dummy!), but will in the future.
I bought my 996 C4 in January and thought it would be great to fly my parents out to grab it from the Left Coast so they could have an extended road trip to visit family and friends on the way back east. Along the way a wooded box fell off a truck in Dallas and wrecked the front end. Fast forward to now and, after many fights with the truck owners insurance, I may finally get to drive my car by Independence Day, now featuring the entire front end cut out and replaced and the questionable resale value that comes with $13k of repairs.
Then i I get to worry about all the other **** you guys talk about on here.
So it happens I guess.
That stinks! Hope no-one was hurt though I'm sure shaken up at the very least. Insurance companies can be real dirtbags with normal cars much less with cars like ours. Glad that you project a fourth of July return. Fingers crossed for you.
S--t does happen. It's all part of life. Some good some not so much. Trust me worrying doesn't help. I know because I did more than my fair share.
Here is a teardown teaser pic from F6I of a cylinder that has seen better times. While I don't have the info yet my guess is it is #6. Looks like I made a good decision!
No engine expert here but I don't believe that is a chunk missing. The engine was running when sent in. I think Jake would have called if he had found an exploded cylinder liner. Regardless the liners get machined out anyway.
No chunks were missing. That’s a factory windage notch-
This build is coming along well, and as scheduled. We edited more video this past week, and will get it scheduled to be released on the channel.
Some feedback I received: #6 was horribly scored, #5 almost horrible, and #4 just starting. All of that can clearly be seen in the above video. Bore scoring is replacing the IMSB problem but on steroids! I don't wish to sound like an alarmist but if you have one of these cars pay attention to proper recommended maintenance activities/procedures, the engine sounds, tailpipe appearance and oil consumption. The sky is Not falling but information is power so my advice is to soak up as much as possible.
[QUOTE=wildbilly32;15959873I don't wish to sound like an alarmist but if you have one of these cars pay attention to proper recommended maintenance activities/procedures, the engine sounds, tailpipe appearance and oil consumption. The sky is Not falling but information is power so my advice is to soak up as much as possible.[/QUOTE]
From what I understand;
Use a good motor oil
Drive off immediately after cold start, keeping rpms at or below 3k until operating temps are reached.
After that, what more can you do?
Thanks for your thread! Very informative! And very jealous of your new motor. 😎
Above is a good start. Jake and Flat6 Innovations has produced 8 videos including a FAQ video about bore scoring. There is tons of information in those videos that I can't even come close to recounting here. I would encourage watching and re-watching these videos to absorb all of the things that can help/hurt the engine. I have done this and still miss things that I catch next time through the series. As Jake says you can do all the right stuff and still end up with bore scoring. I say why not do what you can to prevent it.
Disclaimer time(again): I do not work for F6I. I do not have a financial interest in F6I. I am paying for my engine work. I choose F6I from what I read over a period of years and from talking to Jake. They are the best...in my opinion. I am happy to share this journey with the goal of helping people understand the issue. I am excitingly waiting for the return of my car!!
I shipped my 2004 Boxster s to Jake and he installed his IMS Solution and a lot of other upgrades for me. I've put 35,000 miles on her since then and it has all been pure joy.
These engines do not use forged pistons, lack ferrostan piston coating, and have more open running clearances. They also have better stroke/ bore ratios, as well as rod/ stroke ratios, and a slew of other benefits.
So the Boxster motors did not use forged pistons but the 911 did?!? Does it just go by the displacement of the motor? I know you show a number of variables but is the displacement a common denominator? I�ve watched the �bore scoring� series (great stuff), just thought still trying to figure out which motors/years/models were best to AVOID this issue. Thank you for weighing in! -Dom
The Boxster never shared the displacement of the 911, until 2007 when it became a 3.4 engine, when the Boxster S got the M97.21 Cayman S Engine. The 07 and 08 Boxster are the only Boxster engines that are scored bores.
its not a displacement issue, it�s an engine designation issue. There�s 17 engine designations in the M9X engine family.
Basically any 986 is safe from bore scoring, as well as any 987 base (2.7) or Boxster S 987 from 2005 and 2006, with M96.25 and M96.26 engine designations.
Thank you Jake,
You confirmed some of my suspicions I have formed. Your willingness to share information is great asset to the forum and for Porsche drivers everywhere.
Your inciteful videos have changed my driving habits for the good of my motor, wallet, and sanity. Get in, drive off, let it warm up before enjoing the car for what it was designed.
I struggle to think that Porsche didn't see this issue in development testing, and failed to rectify it in a more timely manner once known but then again It probably was covered in manual somewhere and I didn't look very long because I had my answer.
Thanks again,
Mike
Happy to help.
There were no directives about these issues. The customer base was tasked with the R&D for these vehicles, everything at the onset was a projection.
Nope! Time frame exactly what FSI said it would be. In their shop June 1st. Engine in end of Sept., couple of weeks of testing and back on the truck home. Process is set and adhered to down there. I like it. Not too long unless you are on this end.
Happy for you....Hopefully you will be tearing it up soon..In a good way of course.
Just did my first HPDE event this weekend. The C4S handle amazing. Now i am doing all the extras to make it so i don't ever have to call Flat Six....at-least that's the plan.
It's BACK!!! Busy day only drove it home about 5 miles so it didn't heat up enough to lean on it. I can feel a surge of power below 3000rpm that was not there before. Will put some more miles on it tomorrow and will report back. So far I am very very pleased! BTW the funky feeling clutch pedal is fixed so Jake troubleshot that remotely and correctly!
You were great! No drama was encountered, no shipping disasters, no issues! It was a textbook normal procedure, and we were done 2 weeks early... Meaning we are right on time.
At the risk of sounding like a "Fan Boi", which I am, I say the following:
When I find someone who offers the best there is and delivers on their promise there is no need for drama. All I had to do was make the decision on what I wanted, follow my side of the requirements which were simple then sit back to let it all happen. Easy Peasy!
I will when I get the opportunity. If you listen to the Jake's Bill's car arrival" short video you will be startled by the difference, which is a good thing. Apples to Grapefruit as someone says...
Back in 2008 I started reading Jake's posts about the internal problems etc of the M96 engines & solutions. I couldn't believe this guy was just giving away all this knowledge that he had worked so hard to discover.
Then in 2009 he announced that he was going to teach a class on how to rebuild & improve these engines. I was stunned again but signed up for the 1st class as soon as I heard about it.
I'm sure you did a great job! Your reputation precedes you for a good reason.
I'd just really like to hear the comparison after I saw the video posted months ago when it was delivered to FSI. Also, there aren't really any YouTube videos of "good" or rebuilt 996 engines running at idle.
So today I drove to the local Shell station and filled up with V-Power+ only 91 proof(it is Nebraska after-all) then drove it around, sedately, until up to operating temperature. Stopped at a local big box store to complete the excuse for the trip then back out on the hi way. H-O-L-Y C-R-A-P! Where is my car and what has Jake done to it. This thing is a rocket ship! An effortless ROCKET SHIP!!
I do have a few issues though:
#1: After starting out on the trip within a couple of blocks the old muscle memory kicked back in. Brain/muscles connection went "ok we remember this car". I looked down and I was consistently 7-10 mph over what my befuddled brain expected. Did I mention effortless power? Even when driving it like a little old lady on Sunday going to church I was having trouble keeping it within the 35 to 40 mph speed limit. When I got home I dug through all the information from F6I looking for the document that guaranteed Jake would pay all of my speeding violations until my internal ECU was reprogrammed to the extreme change in power characteristics. Nope! Found nothing.
#2: After not getting pulled over in the residential areas, getting gas, properly warming the car up and stopping at the big box store I suffered the same problem as before only at a higher speed on the hi-way. Turning left on the green light from the outside lane I noticed a semi in front of me going slowly, looked in the rear view mirror, changed lanes to the left, looked again behind me and realized "the traffic is coming pretty fast...wasn't it."
#3: One more semi was complicating my need to be in the right hand lane so I could turn off at the next light so I accelerated and swooped in front of him thinking I was about 5 over the speed limit. Nope! 22 over the limit! Did I mention effortless acceleration.
#4: During the speed shots of the hi-way adventures I realized why Jake had turned my radio off...The sound...OH THE SOUND! Jake must have done something under the table to my
exhaust system
. When I got home I peeked under the engine to see what type of modified exhaust he had added. Nope! Still stock!
#5: After all of this I realized I should make a Drs. appointment because at various times during this adventure I realized I had stopped breathing.
While I made a feeble attempt to be humorous the facts above are still the facts.
I am thrilled with the reconstructed engine, to say the least. As I sit here I wonder why I waited so long to have this improvement made...
My best �first assessment� of the sound of my FSI 3.4 > 3.8 STAGE II rebuild was by my son, (who accepted delivery because the car showed up almost a day early and I was at work - about an hour away). His exact quote - as the car came out of the carrier, and then he drove it into the garage - was, �it sounds like a real Porsche engine... almost like an air cooled one but a little quieter�...YMMV
Super happy for you man, I can�t imagine the opportunity to fall in live with my car all over again. I�m pot committed at this point given I�m renewing every aspect of my car devoid of cost. I�m goin that route because I know there�s a resolution if the motor goes, and if/when that happens, It will ultimately result in a better car (after FSI gets done with it). I look forward to hearing more from you about all this no matter how small/mundane any findings are, Enjoy!
Funny you ask as I was considering adding new/continuing thoughts.
Unfortunately didn't drive much this past year due to...well no place to go that was safe nor open. Did change the oil at the assigned date and filled with the recommended GP-1 oil. The engine really seems happy with that oil! It has not hiccuped once. It is quiet and smooth until just north of 3,000rpm then things change rapidly. Still smooth but the exhaust sound changes, the tach and the speedo "gain" urgency. I did do numerous mental health drives and the car with the F6I 3.8 Stage 1 never ceased to amaze. As before the power is smooth, effortless and deceptive. Even if in a situation that prevents a different gear selection the power is available over a WIDE power range and pulls strongly. I am still amazed at the fact that I have not been stopped for exceeding the posted speed limits. Not because I am a "wild" driver anymore but because the speed comes quickly and, did I mention, in a deceptive manner. I quote the F6I website about this engine "
doing everything in a gentlemanlike manner; until the throttle is stabbed."
What is left unsaid is what occurs when "the throttle is stabbed". I can tell you the difference between stock and the F6I reconstructed 3.8 is breath taking and smile inducing. My favorite deal is turning left onto a local four lane hiway from a stop light. Unfortunately once second gear is wound out I am already well over the 45mph speed limit, but it is fun to see others trying to catch up!
Having Flat 6 Innovations reconstruct my engine was absolutely the best vehicle based decision I have ever made in my 50 years of car ownership. Looking forward to Spring when there maybe more activities/get togethers available to drive to/participate in.
Am I a Fanboi of F6I? Yes...yes I am...for a darn good reason!
P.S. Thanks for asking.
