Potential Buy - 2002 996

So I've been hunting a 964 for the past few months but haven't been able to nail down the owner to do a PPI. I love the car and driving it was amazing, but what worries me that there's a fair amount cosmetically wrong with the car and parts are impossible to find and insanely expensive. 996's don't seem to share that problem, although have the well documented problems of their own. So a guy reached out to me and is offering to sell his 2002 996 (newer style with cupholders!, 3.6L engine, etc) for 17K. Has 100K miles. Below is his background on the car: I figure that if I replace the clutch, flywheel, and IMS/RMS all together I should be looking at about $5K in parts and labor based on what I've read on the forums. I guess the question is if this guys is willing to deal, does it seem a reasonable ask at 17K and be all into an IMS/RMS new clutch/flywheel 2002 996 for the low 20K's?

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Make him fix the clutch and add it to the price. It sounds like it is but it would suck if you bought the car and needed to rebuild the trans.

Decent price, maybe can negotiate based on the slipping clutch. Should be able to get an independent shop to do the clutch/IMS/RMS for around $2500.

I'd try to get the owner down even more than $17k. High miler with slipping clutch doesn't leave him many options! Straight side Carrera with $5k in maintenance pending is enticing at $12 to $14 range. If you do all that work you will have peace of mind for a long time, so only do this if you plan to keep the car till it dies. You should think about replacing water pump, low T thermostat and AOS at same time. Add another $1500 to $2000 with labor. 2003 Carrera 4S Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 Rust Red

I think its worth what he is asking... Do the work yourself and save money..

I really would love to do the work myself, but don't have any of the proper tools or really space to do so - I mean I need to borrow my parent's jack to do an oil change on my BMW! Isn't the LN bearing itself like $700? You think I would be able to get the whole kit and kaboodle ( water pump, thermostat and AOS for around 5K? My worry about having him do it is 1. He's going to be incented to find the cheapest guy and 2. I won't have any control over what other things get done while the mechnic is down there. Honestly I would love to do the work myself, but I'm just not equipped to do it currently. Maybe if I spent $5K getting the necessary things and a couple extra for the divorce that would happen, I might swing it...

You could get a PPI done to make sure there was nothing else wrong other than the clutch, if that's the case that's NOT a bad price. If you can get a PPI, I would diffenetly get a compression test, maybe not a leakdown, but at least that. You should be able to get all of that done for about 5k at an indie. Mike

good one to review: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ing-guide.html

Sometimes is cheaper to buy the tools and DIY

No kidding, and you get to keep the tools afterwards The guy said he would send me over the history today, but haven't heard from him. He says he bought it from a dealership which I assume is a good sign as I think the records will probably be more complete than otherwise. I may go see it this weekend if he gets back to me. I'll let you guys know how that goes and whether we can come to some sort of agreement. Still love the 964, but when faced with the prospect of trying to fix fundamental issues like a broken convertible top that will not only cost a ton but also be hard to source parts for I get less enthusiastic...

My local independent quoted me $2300 for clutch, rms and ims bearing.

Nice! Except I dislike the wheels.

Saw it, but didn't drive it, this morning. Car is really clean inside and outside. Guy has 4 cars (Range Rover, customized with 22" and lowered, kind of drug dealer looking, a Z4 that his wife drives and something else), is a natural gas engineer and seems to not have a problem spending some money on his cars. I peeked inside the engine bay and it's really clean. Like almost spotless. He has the two original keys and all the manuals and stuff. As far as I can tell, no previous records. Woman owned from 0-88K, he bought from a dealer @ 88k, currently has 104K, which was driven over 16 months of his ownership. I think I may see if I can pick it up for 3-4K less than his ask and plow that right back into doing the clutch/IMS/RMS.

Nice car....but im pretty sure you wont be able to snag it for $13k

I'm surprised he is selling the car in that shape, but to give you an idea I sold my perfect 02 base boxster to my brother in law for $13k and was looking for 15k from unrelated parties. I don't think you'll get it for 13k but then again I can't believe he is selling it in that condition. He may be hard up on cash and needs to let it go so you may get lucky, or unlucky if it has other problems. I would also point out the terrible center console. I look at these cars sometime and have no idea how some one can wear them out to such extent.

Dhc, Have you driven or owned a 996 before? I'd say try to get familiar with a good running one so you have a baseline. I think we are in the same area and I'd be more than happy to let you drive my 2002 - if you are interested.

Sammy, I definitely haven't owned one before. In fact, if I had taken it for a test drive yesterday it would have been the first time I drive one. I have driven other porsches before. We do actually live pretty close to each other - do you ever do the Redwood Rd/Pinehurst drive? Basically from Union City if you take that through it drops you right by where I live (was Moraga, now WC). I basically want a porsche to do that specific drive

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Besides the clutch, it's in really good shape from what I could tell seeing it/sitting in it for 5 minutes. What do you mean by the terrible center console? He's selling since he has 4 cars, 2 drivers, 1 baby and 0 houses...

The LN bearing comes with stickers - My 996 has one on the door jamb. If the retrofit had been done, there would be an indication that it had been done. Normally I'd tell you to not jump right on the IMS, but since the clutch is slipping, you can bet it's down to the rivets, so it's time for the tranny to come off anyway. The additional labor for the bearing shouldn't add that much. My clutch exhibited identical slippage at 60K, about 10K after I acquired it, and I had the bearing installed at that time. The comment about the terrible center console was probably motivated by the significant paint damage around the e-brake lever and elsewhere on the console. It's pretty scarred up - which seems common for consoles finished in lighter colors. When they get scratched up, the black plastic is revealed and looks terrible because of the contrast.

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If he was willing to keep driving the 996 with a bad clutch, I'm guessing there's some other deferred maintenance you'll come across. The floor mats are a tell, also. Maybe he bought the 996 as a DD and didn't mind putting wear on it, but my bet is that you're going to find some additional items that need attention, like idler pulley, fuel filter, serp. belt. Low-ticket deferred maintenance items aren't a huge deal, but I'd have a trusted indy go over the car (preferably as a pre-purchase) and itemize the stuff that needs to be addressed.

I have an 02 and ive noticed that his airbag on the steering wheel looks to be a replacement. So run a carfax or whatever. Could be totally wrong though

I'm pretty sure this hasn't had any of the bearings changed. I looked over the carfax as of 16 months ago (he gave me the one he ran when he bought it) and basically from purchase to when it came out of warranty, there was almost nothing wrong. Shows the 10K service done at 11.4K, I'm guessing the 20 or 25K done at 22.4K miles (plus alignment, brake fluid flush). Then nothing until 2008 when it had 53K miles and passed smog. Definitely not a lemon...

I'd rather have a solid car with a little deferred maintenance than a pampered garage queen with a long string of problems. If you decide to jump on it, good luck!

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How do you figure it's a replacement?

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I've MTN Biked around Chabot, but have never taken my car there� How's the traffic on that route? Does it get crowded? -Sam

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Not sure this car falls in either category? It's always a risk buying a car (.) that has never NEEDED any maintenance; but I think the real question is would you prefer to buy a car that has had everything break and is fixed by the PO or a car that's never needed or received much in terms of maintenance. Ideally you buy from one of the OCD folks here who fix things that ain't broke, but my vote is for the car that seems like it doesn't have inherent problems...

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Its different than mine...badge is larger and theres what appears to be stitching on the face. My face is smooth and the badge is much smaller. Just noticing the difference....thought that looked like a air bag cover off a turbo. But like i said...could be totally wrong!

I recently had IMS/RMS/AOS/WATER PUMP/CLUTCH and oil sending unit done for $4400 by a Top engine rebuilder.

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Everything in my 996's engine compartment was original, right down to the coolant reservoir cap. The downside is that there were a couple of items that were past due for replacement, but the upside was that I didn't have to guess when or why something was replaced, or what it had been replaced with (i.e. a water pump with a metal impeller or other surprises). When the service history is sketchy, I'm more comfortable with untouched and all original than I am with repairs of unknown origin. As far as your OCD comment, I'm right there with you. There are a few folks on here whose cars I would not hesitate to buy, since they probably have documented everything down to the manufacturer and lot number of the cloth diapers they used to polish the oil drain plug after each 1,000 mile oil change.

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Breakout of parts/labor? I've been trying to get together my parts list and I'm somewhere between 15-2K in just parts and I didn't price in an AOS (that's also just a cheap part that's hard to access, right?)

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Totally agree - and I think this car fits that bill. I also have the benefit of the "economies of pulling a damn engine out" whereas I would probably be paying another $1-2K if the bearings/water pumps were taking care of by unknown provenance (which is probably my marginal cost of adding them while doing the clutch).

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Actually, they don't drop the engine to do the IMS Bearing/RMS/Clutch� Just the transmission/differential. But water pump can be done pretty easily with the engine still in the car.

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Was this for the IMS Solution or just IMS Retrofit bearing?

FYI, I shot him a note saying that if he was flexible on price I'll take it in for a PPI this weekend. I figure this is a 20K car, and if I get it for 15 and throw in 5 and change I'm getting a pretty good deal for a car that should last me another 50K trouble free miles. Right?

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you do all the upgrades you've considered, and 50k miles should be a walk in the park! 2002 Turbo - Basalt Black Metallic / 2003 Carrera 4S - Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 - Rust Red

Oh also the brakes and rotors seem to be in good condition (very little lip on the rotor), but one of the tires is a little tired and will need replacement at some point. The 3 others are in good condition (and not offbrand/ he ran over a nail hence the new/old combo). Fingers are crossed, will see where this pans out.

Hmmm… Wouldn't it be the other way around if he ran over a nail? 1 newer and 3 older, not 1 older and 3 newer? Which wheel is the ratty tire on? Do you have the option sticker (under the front hood)?

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Yeah that should make sense but from what I gathered (and saw) the front two are 60%, the back passenger was 90% (one that was nailed) and the back driver was 20-30%. I guess the back tires have had significantly more wear than the fronts leading to what was observed?

Ok, that makes more sense... but it sounds like the this 2nd owner really didn't do ANY maintenance in his 18K miles of ownership. The reason I asked for the option code sticker is because the steering wheel airbag cover (with the stitching) is usually for a car that either has sport steering wheel or full leather. If it has none of these, then most likely it was replaced for some reason. Also, its worth confirming that you know, those wheels are 997 lobster forks, they are definitely NOT original to the car. And with a slipping clutch, you should probably also budget for a NEW flywheel.

Well, he got back to me. Said he could do 15K. Thoughts? I finally got a hold of my 964 guy, so have the potential to take both/either in for a PPI this weekend. I mean to be real - it is a higher mileage car with a screwed up clutch and gimp wheel... how much can it really garner in the market?

As far as the airbag goes that particular airbag is a leather option that's what the stitching is, usually part of a full leather interior package.so that does seem a little strange as I can see that the interior is only partial leather,however the original owner could have order it that way. If the sticker is present under the front hood you can check the options it's pretty simple lots of information here on the website about that.

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Just a general knowledge question as I've seen it come up in a couple of places - the sticker on the bonnet only pertains to factory installed options, correct? There was a recent thread with a guy with PCCB but couldn't find that on his sticker - the thought being the dealer may have installed it. Possibly the case here? I will have him send me a picture of the sticker.

I paid $2500 for a clutch (oem), IMS (LN) and a RMS in a SF bay area porsche specialist shop with a good reputation.

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That's pretty good, especially for Bay Area. Is your car a 3.4 or 3.6?

Yeah I PM'd SJG to get details. If that's the case +- $500, I think this is an auto-buy all day long at 15K. The stereo is upgraded to include bluetooth and iphone connectivity (aftermarket). Also, the dealer charged him $400 to change the light switch as well. Jeez. I asked if he could get his wife to send me a picture of the option sticker on the bonnet. I'll see if that comes through and let you guys know.

Thanks to Sammy, found out the magic website for figuring out the options list: BASE Porsche Base Model 67,900.00 425 Rear Window Wiper 340.00 446 Wheel Caps with Colored Crest 175.00 692 Remote CD Changer (6 Disc) 715.00 982 Supple Leather Front and Rear 395.00 CY Graphite Grey Leather Seats 1,490.00 E3 Lapis Blue Metallic Top 0.00 M6F Metropol Blue Floor Mat 115.00 P01 Comfort Package 2,100.00 P14 Heated Front Seats Package 415.00 XPA 3-Spoke Str Whl-Interior Lthr 1,270.00 XRL 18" Sport Design Wheel Guessing the $1,300 steering wheel resolves the steering wheel question?

Yes that sounds right and the brakes could have been installed at the dealer those things sometimes happened and of course that wouldn't be on the sticker under the hood good luck!

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Dont you just love this interweb thing?! That VIN options link is worth clicking.

Huh, so apparently the hood and front bumper was repainted due to a minor bumper to bumper (which doesn't show up in the carfax). Definitely a red flag, not sure if this is a deal killer.

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Ask if you can lift up the Frunk carpet and check to see if there are any wrinkles in the sheet metal below. Also look in between the front grill openings to see if the bumper bar looks new and shiny. Other than that if you are serious, have a autobody shop check it out in addition to PPI

Wow - Great thread! Great advice and it looks like a good deal. I think if you do the clutch, fly wheel, IMS/RMS you should be fine. All the other stuff is maintenance for when you need to do it. The PPI should call it out. Wait for the water pump to show a leak or have a loose pulley, wait for smoke to replace the AOS, wait for the oil pressure sender to fail. I would also check the plug coils. If they are showing signs of cracks then plan a plug/coil change. You'll want to get it caught up on the Porsche recommended maintenance items. You've got all the advise now read the PPI. If you pull the trigger find the right shop to do the work. After the clutch/IMS/RMS invest in a good jack and jack stand setup. You can do a lot DIY and save big $$$$. I spent $600 on my jack system and have saved that 3 times over in the first two years. I did the DIY for Coils/Plugs, Brake Fluid Flush, Oil Change, Water Pump, Oil Pressure Sender Unit, Drive Belt, and Cabin/Air Filters. These are great cars for DIY and the advice from the guys on this site is incredibly helpful (made me a DIYer!). Good Luck!...

Thanks! So I took it out for almost half an hour on streets and highway. So I've never burned a clutch nor have I driven a car with a bad clutch, but the test drive was pretty bad, and given I have no history with bad clutches I'd certainly appreciate a word or two about what I should have seen and what I did. So this is what happened: 1. Clutch was hard to push in, and slow to come out. It was almost like there was molasses in there. 2. Engine vibrated a lot at seemingly random intervals throughout. It was bad enough that The automatic spoiler rattled a fair amount. This wasn't only when I was lugging the engine trying to match revs to speed or engine braking. It stopped for the most part once the engine was warm. 3. When in gear 4+, I couldn't get the car over 3k rpm. It would go up, then at around 3k, would lose power and slip back to 2.5-3k rpm. On the highway in 6th I could barely break 70 mph. 4. To test the engine ex trans, I put in neutral and rev'd to 4k. Seemed like a lot of noise and vibration. Don't know if it's the boxer engine and the fact I haven't driven a 996 before, but it just seemed a bit unhealthy sounding/feeling. I'll post some pics I took momentarily... Sam, I might need to take you up on your offer if the above doesn't sound like normal bunk-clutch issues.

Also took some more pictures: Where the arrow is pointing is a large (4" perhaps diameter) rubber hose with clamps. There was a fair amount of oily gunk in that area, the rest of the bay looks pretty clean. Repainted frunk bonnet. Don't think it was the best job (you can see some paint streaks not on the outside once open) but otherwise it looks fine. There is a probably 1/4-1/2" gap between the bonnet, bumper, and headlight area when fully closed. Bonnet closes easily and seems like it was properly repaired in that respect. I pulled up some of the carpeting in the frunk and didn't see anything out of place. The interior is really a travesty. Not because it's in used condition. The guy who designed it must have been inspired by indpendence day (alien ships) and the Graduate (plastics! that's the future!). Looks both cheap and horrible at the same time. But I guess that's ultimately a fixable problem as I've seen some really nice interiors here (I assume they're full leather options, although I think there might be some aftermarket things you all have done).

Why would you buy this car? There are hundreds of better options out there.

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I recommend shopping around. You can find good (ready to drive) 996s in your budget. I can't believe this guy is trying to sell it in this condition. Maybe you can invest $5K and make it right, but it doesn't sound like it's been very well maintained and you're going to need a lot more help to figure it all out. my $0.02.... PS: This car really opens up after 3000rpm (4K-6K is a dream!) and I don't think mine goes below 70mph in 6th gear!

Thanks Johnny, that's kind of what I'm tending towards. When I spoke with the owner aftewards I was pretty straight forward in saying that what I just experienced was not very confidence building, but since I've never had a clutch problem before I had no idea if everything I had just gone through is symptomatic of a clutch problem. At this point, I really only have his word of his mechanic's word saying it's only a clutch problem. He's an honest guy and has already told me more than a dishonest person would (there's also a crack in one of the rims that was welded, and according to him is pretty poorly done). I'm basically 100% sure this is a pass unless someone can say, "yeah that's basically exactly what I experienced when my clutch went and otherwise the car was fine". More specifically, anyone know if the oily gunk pointed out above is typical? Didn't see any oil leaking and the pavement below the car was clean. Could engine mounts or something similar cause the excessive vibration and noise? Maybe I'm just too coddled in my BMW, but this was serious old school almost carbuerator style vibration/noise. (EDIT: it was only when driving; at idle it sounds like any other porsche).

RUN AWAY!

The clutch has nothing to do with the engine vibrations or the fact that it won't rev over 3k RPM. This car has other issues that will need more investigation. I recommend you go drive a 100% functioning 996. These cars are very reliable and will last a very long time. You have the budget and like DTMiller just stated, "There are hundreds of better options out there.". Keep us posted.

Sam has graciously offered to do exactly that. But to be clear - the engine, in neutral, would rev over 3K; when in gear it would do all sorts of funky stuff like go to 3.5K, slip down to 2.8K, then go back up, all with little to no response in terms of acceleration. The best thing I could liken it to was a piggy back ride on an overweight asthmatic kid running up stairs.

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+996 - Run from this one!

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Lol....i take both these back!

On cars.com right now there are 89 996s priced under $20,000.

Yeah this car is toast. Seller said that if I didn't buy, he would just fix the clutch himself and keep the car. I think that's probably the best of all possible worlds as he absorbs the risk that something else is tragically wrong; and he's probably the best informed person as to whether that's the case or not. Also, will never sell a car with a bunk clutch. Seems crazy. Who would buy it????

You are doing the right thing by looking further afield! There are tons of cheap 996's out there, be patient, the right one will come along and whisper in your ear... 2002 Turbo - Basalt Black Metallic / 2003 Carrera 4S - Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 - Rust Red