02 C4s v 12 Turbo S

There is a guy who works where I do who has an 12 Turbo S. We met for coffee this weekend and let each other drive the others' car. It was very interesting to drive a 997.2 Turbo S. First, it is insanely quick. Short of driving an F1 car or an old Can Am 917 I can't imagine a car quicker. It also of course has handling characteristics beyond my primitive driving ability to completely exploit. It is also much more modern feeling than my car. The PASM really gives it a soft ride if you are not driving it hard and it would be a very easy comfortable car to set the cruise control at 70 and drive cross country. That said, my car has a few things going for it over the 12 in my opinion. First, with the sport exhaust I have, mine sounds better. I totally get now why so many Porsche people won't own anything but N/A cars. You just can't get a turbo to roar like you can a N/A car or least this one didn't. I much prefer the engine note of mine. Second, I know the PDK transmission is quicker and in many way superior to the manual but for me it just isn't as fun to drive as a manual. Pushing a paddle just doesn't give me at least the same feel and joy that I get from running a clutch and gear box. I am probably an exception but I like manuals even in traffic. I drive my car to work every day all on side roads and in not crazy but certainly significant traffic with a lot of stop lights. I even prefer a manual under those conditions. After driving a car with a PDK, I have no desire to have anything but a manual and am so glad I bought a car that was. Lastly, call it a dated feel or whatever I like the overall feel of my car more than that one. For me the stiff suspension just makes it feel more like a sports car. Hard to put my finger on why but I feel like my car has more connection to the road. It feels less sterile. Perhaps I am just subconsciously justifying my purchase decision, but I really liked my car better as crazy as that sounds. All things being equal I would rather have my 02. If the guy went nuts and offered to trade me straight up, I would say yes and then sell the 12 and go buy another 996 C4S. I have had my car for six weeks now and have put nearly 2000 miles on it. Perhaps I am still blinded by first Porsche infatuation, but my impression after six weeks of daily driving is that the 996 is an incredible car and kind of a sweet spot between the technical sterility of the new ones and the old school impracticality of the air cooled ones. I don't care what the purists and everyone else says. It probably makes me a Philistine but people who run down the 996 either haven't owned one or are refusing to see how great they are. That is my impression anyway. This being a 996 forum it probably the only place I can express that opinion to people who will get it.

Trust me...an F1 or an 917 is a heck of a lot quicker than that Turbo S.

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LOL, Yes I realize that. They did a test last fall where they took Jim Clark's 1966 world championship winning Lotus and took it around the Circuit of the Americas and compared its time to a new C7 Corvette. The Lotus won but only because it was geared lower. The C7 Corvette was geared to get to a top speed that was just not achievable on that track at a price to its acceleration. Holding that factor constant, however, the C7 cornered at the same speeds and would have accelerated just as fast had it had a gear ratio more suited to the track. Basically a stock C7 was just as faced as Clark's old Lotus F1 car. It is amazing to think you can by a factory car today that is just as quick as an F1 car was back in the 1960s. That said, I would imagine the Turbo S I drove is just as quick or quicker than a C7 Corvette. So, you would have to get at least a post 1966 F1 car to beat it.

One note on the exhaust...Even a turbo can be made to sound pretty impressive with the right setup. I'm not sure who owns it but there's a 996 turbo I see close to my office periodically that has a killer exhaust system which sounds like an NA but with the turbo whine. It's the first one I've ever heard sound that good but it is possible. Good observations on the rest of your review.

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Yeah, he has some kind of a stock exhaust. I would imagine if you had the cash you could get an exhaust to sound about as good as you wanted it to. That is a fair point. Isn't the charge that the Turbos "sound like a vacuum cleaner" the main reason so many people prefer the N/A 911s?

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I'd freaking hope so. The Porsche produces 530 HP, while a stock C7 "only" produces 455 HP, so I'd expect it to be quicker. Given the price differential (the Chevy rings up at about $100,000 less), I'd be a little upset if the 911 couldn't outperform the entry-level Corvette. Comparing apples to oranges, though, a previous-generation C6 ZR1, with a stock 638 HP and just over a G of lateral grip, would hold its own just fine against the turbo S...and even when new cost $50K less than the 911. The new Z06 will also sport something in the neighborhood of 650HP, and you'd have enough $$ left over to buy yourself a new Macan to haul tires with... The Corvette is definitely no Porsche, even with the C7's much improved interior, but you can get a hell of a lot of car for the $$$ if you're willing to put up with a few rattles and some plastic.

I was amazed at how much I prefered the 996TT over the 997TT. Mostly looks but about 50% based on driving feedback too.

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The C7 interior is much better than the C6. Chevrolet actually got it right for once. For me the biggest knock against both generations is the fact you can't see out the back of them. Driving one of those things in traffic is a massive pain in the neck. They have blind spots as large as those of an 18 wheeler. One of the best things about really any generation of 911 is that it is one of the few or maybe the only exotic sports car that has a great field of vision front and back. People always complain about the harsh rides of sports cars. You get used to the hard ride. Having owned SUVs that had poor rear visibility and large blind spots, I have never been able to get used to that. If you drive it every day it will drive you up the wall or at least it does me.

Regardless you can haul a set of Porsche WB wheels in either c6 or c7 with a passenger.

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True. The rear view from my C4 is great, but the halo makes the blind spot large enough to hide a tank. I won't admit how many times I have smacked my forehead into the glass trying to make sure my blind spot is clear.

Back to the original post...I just took possession of an '02 Turbo, which has the stiffer frame than the '01. I know it is not a '12 TT, but for me the impressions were as follows when compared to my '03 C4S: -Man this thing burns the gas faster than my C4S. -Acceleration is mind boggling... -It also has stock springs, so it seems a bit more "floaty" than the H&R springs on the C4S. Need to check into shorter springs. -PO had the short shifter installed, nice. -Clutch is super easy to push in, compared to C4S. -Starter wouldn't turn over a few times - scared me - could be a switch related to pushing the clutch to the floor board. -Bose premium system in the TT is a much better system than the C4S Bose premium. -Exhaust note for the Turbo is about a 3 whereas the C4S is a 10 by comparison. Not a whine or vacuum sound, but just subdued.

5CHN3LL, I’ve found you can reduce the blind spot significantly if you adjust the mirrors to be far out enough that you can’t see the fenders in the mirrors at all, I adjust when a car is in my blindspot, pretty helpful. I think both the 996 C4S and the twin turbo are fantastic cars. The turbo is a bit more rough and a tad more disconnected (cluch has practically no feel) but is very special anyway and quite the cruiser. It has fantastic NVH to feedback... Regardless though, the comparison to much newer turbo and walking away with thinking the 02 is better is not something I can quite understand. At their price points, now that makes sense.

Trick I learned at traffic school for setting your side mirrors (I suspect most people set them incorrectly): - put your head against drivers window and set driver's mirror to where you see the edge of your car - put your head in the middle of the car and set passenger mirror to see edge of car Will feel like the mirrors are way too far out for awhile until you get used to it, but watch a car pass you on the freeway and you see them move from your rear view mirror, to your side mirror, and then appear out the side of your eye. No blind spot! - Chris

Bingo!

Double Bingo. No blind spot and the only way to fly.

thx for sharing...enjoyed the insights. PL

Awesome......learned something new today. Thanks!

I owned a 996 C2, 997.1 C2S. The latter was so superior to the former it amazed me. Solidity, handling, acceleration etc etc. There was not a single performance parameter in which the 997 was not superior. The front headlights on the 996 never ceased bothering me. Then I bought a 997.1 TT and it's superiority over the 2S was even greater than the difference between the 996 compared to the 997. That experience lead me to the TTS, which is overall the most satisfying vehicle I have had the privilege of owning and driving on a daily basis. It is an order of magnitude better than a 996 4S. The two cannot even be compared. Everyone has their own predilections and personal preferences but some things are simply clearly and undeniable on a higher plane. This is one of those occasions.

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All of that is entirely subjective. It depends on what you value in a car. If the headlights bothered you, I don't know what to tell you beyond to me that is idiotic. But you can't help what bothers you. To me it is not on a higher plane. Is it faster? Sure. But faster isn't everything. I find the 997s to be sterile. They are great cars. They just drive too much like my Mercedes for my taste. They are comfortable and solid and incredibly quick but are lacking something to me. The first Porsche I ever test drove was an 06 C2. I remember thinking that maybe I didn't want one that badly. I test drove an 08 C4 and thought the same thing. It wasn't until I test drove a 996 C4s that I decided yes I really did want one. I rarely meet a 997 driver who doesn't protest a bit too much about how much better the 997 is to the 996. They always put thing in ridiculously stark terms like you have. It is funny, we are the ones that are supposed to have the unloved car. Yet, it is 997 owners like you that seem to act the most insecure. You like your car. That is good. We all do. But it is not objectively on another plane. It is just subjectively better to you. Some of us disagree. Since it is all subjective, none of us are right or wrong really.

I am not insecure at all nor could I care less what others think about which car provides a better driving experience. I owned the car you are talking about and UPGRADED to what I considered a superior one because of how I felt, not because of what others said. Every time I made a change it was because of an enhancement for me of the thrill of the ride. For me, going from a 996 to a 997 S and ultimately to a TTS elevated my excitement in driving to a significant degree. Great for you that you have convinced yourself that a 996 4s is more enjoyable than a TTS. Saves you a great deal of money.I wish I could have felt the same.

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Trust me I didn't think I would. I drove that car thinking it would make me hate mine. But it surprisingly didn't. And again, the 997 is "better" by a lot of measures. It just depends on how you value them. In an ideal world I would have bought a 993. But 993s are a pain in the neck to maintain and have become such a collector car you really are crazy to use them as daily drivers since it runs up the miles and depreciates the car. At this point the 993s are basically retired to garage weekend fun status. I wanted a DD. To me every new generation of 911 gets further away from the primitive soccer hooligan of a car it started out as. The 996 is as close to that as I can get and still be able to use as a daily driver. I totally get how someone would like the 997 better. I just value things differently. That said, in a few years, I probably trade this one off for an 09 since I will still want a 911 as my DD and want something with lower miles.

Your last sentence is in complete contradiction to your entire thread. If you value what the 996 does in comparison to the 997, why would you trade your 996 in for a 997. Lower mileage is now your new priority? There will be low mileage 996s still available in a few years. You seem a tad confused. But that is subjective.

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No it is not. If I had a choice, I would still rather have the 996. The problem is that in five years, how many 996s with low enough mileage to be a DD will there be left? Not many if any at all. So if I want to keep a 911 as a DD, I need to get a newer car. If someone can put a 996 in a time machine and deliver to me from 2002 directly to 2017, I would take it. That is sadly unlikely to happen. Maybe I can get another 996 or just decide to keep mine and rebuild the engine at some point. More likely is that I will sell my 996 while it still has good resale value and use that money towards getting an 09 or 10, which by that time should have come down in price some. I don't see any other alternatives. What I mostly likely won't do is buy a 996.1. Those have an IMS bearing that can't be easily replaced like the ones in a 996 can. If I am going 997, I will pay the premium and get a 09 or later so the IMS is not an issue.

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You need to contact KK in 5 years. He will have a low mileage practically new 996 C4s in pristine condition saved for you.

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Contact who?

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Geez, relax. Some people prefer (relatively) raw sports cars to ultra-refined GT's. Would most of us not take an early Datsun 240Z over any of the more recent Nissan Z cars for a weekend blast?

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KrazyK forum member on here. Do a search on him, then contact him and let him know you will be interested in buying his ride in 5 years.

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Firstly, I am the most relaxed person you will ever meet. A dialogue about expensive sport cars is hardly a topic that would cause me any stress or anxiety. Secondly, I am fully aware that there are those that enjoy raw sports cars over refined cruisers just as there are those that love big, cushy sedans and others think SUVs are wonderful. Are you suggesting that the 996 4S is a raw sports car and the TTS is an ultra refined GT? I certainly would beg to differ, but that is simply my opinion.

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I owned three 996s and all were terrific.

Nobody is suggesting the 996 is not a wonderful car. But preferring a 996 4S to a 2012 TTS.