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YOUR RESEARCHPorsche Problem that winds me up.
Leading reported evidence
Use 911's
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
We buy used 911's because we've weighed the peace of mind that a new car provides against the tens of thousands we'd pay in depreciation.
Check these things, other than breaking the engine in
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Suggestion
And, since a lot of this stuff is automated now, it's hard to have QC processes in place to check these things, other than breaking the engine in for a couple of hours.
Leading evidence: 'Use 911's' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'lot of others' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check these things, other than breaking the engine in' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
It's almost like they are non existent especially as your 'loyalty to the brand' (actual quote from Rachel at Porsche UK HQ) is somewhat lacking over the past 3 or 4 years as I failed to get my car serviced at the Porsche dealer and instead used a highly recognised Porsche (non dealer) garage for my servicing, nor did I continue with my �1500 a year Porsche warranty and my car is now over eight years (jan 2005) old so its basically a case of 'tough' you have not remained loyal enough to the brand for us to even consider any form of 'goodwill'.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I was trying to remember where I'd heard that tone used on RL before, and I finally put my finger on it.
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Suspected cause
If you google engine scoring you will see it popping up on BWM, Subaru and probably a lot of others so it just not Porsche.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Check these things, other than breaking the engine in
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Suggestion
And, since a lot of this stuff is automated now, it's hard to have QC processes in place to check these things, other than breaking the engine in for a couple of hours.
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Suggestion
and last but not least, valve guides on all of them (though up until the 3.2L it was disguised by the need to replace them from tensioner failure or as part of a comprehensive repair on a pulled stud rebuild).
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Suggestion · Original poster
I was fully aware that when I stopped paying for a warranty that I could one day face an expensive repair which is fine, however when you start to research and find that you bought a car that most likely has defective components which is most likely to mean a new engine then even if I had a warranty in place I would be a little angry that I had paid it to cover a very common issue that should not come with a �50k+ price tag car.
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Suggestion · Original poster
If their level of goodwill was going to be �500 towards the cost of a �15000 engine replacement then I would most definitely be towing my car out of there never to set foot in a Porsche garage again.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
58 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Generation: 20261026T033439Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
You can buy a nice new Porsche for tens of thousands of pounds. Take out the Porsche finance to pay it up, take Porsche insurance, pay them for GAP insurance, take a �1500 a year warranty for the first few years and also get them to service it for the first three years. They will smile and be very kind to you whilst doing this
BUT
you've bought a defective car (which they know about).
Its fact that there is an inherent problem with the Porsche 996/997 models which is known as the dreaded 'bore scoring'. Those two words can instantly raise fear of any owner of these vehicles as its a fatal flaw that is costing thousands of innocent Porsche victims worldwide, thousands of pounds, in most cases in excess of �10,000 for a new engine. I am one of those unfortunate Porsche victims and I am definitely not going to be the last.
THESE CARS WERE NEVER RECALLED.
Porsche effectively thought that they would put their head in the sand and hoping that the problem would go away. Funny how the sales people at Porsche don't tell you about the potential issues when you buy the car.
WHY
would Porsche think they had no need to address the problem?. The average car manufacturer takes their responsibly and
RECALLS
the car to rectify the problem. However when you buy a Porsche and pay �53500 for a two year old one you don't expect to be replacing the engine after 7 years of ownership. I had never heard of the dreaded 'scored bore' issue until my car started showing the highly obvious symptoms: excessive oil consumption, noisy engine and sooted left tail pipe, there are no shortage of stories on hundreds of forums from Porsche victims around the world.
The customer services are very arrogant, cocky, disinterested and don't want anything to do with you. It's almost like they are non existent especially as your 'loyalty to the brand' (actual quote from Rachel at Porsche UK HQ) is somewhat lacking over the past 3 or 4 years as I failed to get my car serviced at the Porsche dealer and instead used a highly recognised Porsche (non dealer) garage for my servicing, nor did I continue with my �1500 a year Porsche warranty and my car is now over eight years (jan 2005) old so its basically a case of 'tough' you have not remained loyal enough to the brand for us to even consider any form of 'goodwill'.
They have indeed told me that in order for them to asses what level of goodwill, if any, they will give me (and by my lack of loyalty to the brand over the past few years I suspect the goodwill would be non existent or an absolute insult) I will have to get my engine ripped out at the Porsche dealership for them to wiggle their way out of any liability...oops I meant ...asses the problem to conclude whether it is the dreaded 'scored bores' or not. In the process I will be left carless. Now, all I want to know from them is if they are of the opinion that it is 'scored bores' and based on my lack of loyalty to the brand (that is so laughable) they must be able to tell me now, before taking my car to pieces, what level of 'goodwill' I am likely to get, if any at all.
I have heard so many stories of Porsche dealers asking Porsche victims to either pay up to get their car engine replaced or get the car towed off their premises so as I don't want to be caught between a rock and a hard place all I want to know is what, if anything am I likely to get? If their level of goodwill was going to be �500 towards the cost of a �15000 engine replacement then I would most definitely be towing my car out of there never to set foot in a Porsche garage again. They have put so many people in that position and I am not going to follow suit.
Many people will say, 'well you can afford a Porsche so you can afford to pay for repairs' which is absolutely true but not the issue here, I have no problem paying for an expensive repair that is not a well documented problem with Porsche engineering and an inherent one that was going to happen regardless of who serviced my car over the years or how well I drove it or how often I serviced it etc. This was
ALWAYS
going to happen so for Porsche to try and wiggle out of paying for a new engine, not just for me but for other Porsche owners around the globe, is ridiculous and its daylight robbery.
You buy a Porsche expecting it to last a very long time....you certainly don't expect it to end up in the ever expanding Porsche graveyard after just 7 years of ownership and 72k miles on the clock!
Lynne
Yes, there has been some obvious problems with these cars, especially the 996's but before you purchase a car, you must do your research and should budget for any common problems such as an IMS fix.
Why dont you tell us what happened to you?
The current statistics for longevity (per Consumer Reports) for an average new car is 8 years OR 150,000 miles. The OR is a significant feature, since a low-mileage car still has parts that have heat-cycled for many years.
I don't claim to know what Porsche thinks, but there has to be some metric for what counts as acceptable vehicle mortality. In your case, where you acquired a 2-year-old vehicle and owned it for seven years, the manufacturer likely feels that nine years of service life is "acceptable."
If the car in question was a Hyundai Accent, I don't believe anyone would even **** an eyebrow if the engine punked out after nine years. Of course we all understand that a new four-cylinder Hyundai engine costs less than a new M96, but expecting a $100,000 car to last twice as long as a $20,000 car just isn't realistic. The engine blocks, hoses, belts, and accessories are built from the same metals, rubber, and plastics, regardless of whether the car is assembled in Stuttgart or Seoul.
Porsche's attitude toward you certainly seems callous, but to be frank you're much more likely to get goodwill if your five-year-old Turbo blows an engine rather than your second- or third-hand 996. There's profit to be made by keeping the guy who buys a new 911 every six years happy. There's probably not profit to be made by keeping someone like me, who buys his Porsches third-hand, happy.
I feel for you - and I know you're not the only one in this situation. However, Porsche is a money-making venture, and there is no money to be made shipping and installing crate engines for people like us who drive 10-15 year old 911s, especially when we're not the ones who shelled out for the initial new-car depreciation.
If you do get some form of good will from Porsche, let us know.
PS - REGARDLESS of the price, buying a used machine is inherently riskier than buying a new machine. All machinery fails over time. Rolex parts cost more than Timex parts. We buy used 911's because we've weighed the peace of mind that a new car provides against the tens of thousands we'd pay in depreciation. Sometimes it pays off tremendously, and sometimes we don't save as much as we'd hoped. We also know from watching F1 that high-performance engines don't last nearly as long as big, slow, engines. A big diesel block making 40 HP/liter and never spinning past 5K RPM is going to last longer than a 3.4 liter 996 engine making 88HP a liter and spinning at 7K RPM. The point of this is not to rub your nose in your situation, but rather to point out that your situation, while crappy, is one that many of us are going to contend with.
I realize you didn't purchase in the US, but the above is absolutely not accurate here.
Automotive manufacturers issue 'recalls' pretty much only when there is a bodily-injury safety issue and the manufacturer has either been forced to issue the recall by the NHTSA or is pretty sure they would eventually be forced to do so if they didn't do it voluntarily. Cars are virtually never recalled for non-safety related product defects.
Manufacturers do sometimes issue service bulletins for known defects, and IF the customer experiences the problem WHILE the vehicle is under warranty (or occasionally shortly after warranty through 'goodwill'), the manufacturer will fix the problem. Find out about the problem after warranty, you are almost always on your own, known issue or not.
This isn't just Porsche... Ford to Ferrari, Acura to Aston Martin. Read ANY forum for ANY model from ANY manufacturer and you will find the same complaint...
"
Manufacturer X knows darn well about defect Y on model Z... Why don't they just fix everyones car?"
I often wonder if these sorts of posts are just Flat Six Innovations just trolling the forum. It is not like the various issues are not well known and beaten to death on the internet. How does someone buy a 996 or 997 and not be aware of them and take precautions against them? The chances of any individual engine going is pretty low but it can happen and everyone knows that. Having a hard time following how at this stage of the game anyone could be shocked if their number comes up on one of these cars. Pissed that you really are that five an a hundred guy, sure. But shocked and angry at Porsche?
OP thinks he has problems???? earlier this week a guy's car stalled at a red light! A RED LIGHT!!!! he could have been killed, yet Porsche deliberately refuses to send him a new 991....... I'm done with Porsche.
I'd venture to guess the majority of owners and potential buyers are clueless...
We are enthusiasts.... We hang out on forums and describe our own issues, read all about everyone else's problems as well as great solutions.
Most 996/997 Boxster/Cayman owners and buyers probably wouldn't know an IMS bearing from a donut.
Just to clarify:
I can't confirm or deny this, but I'm pretty sure Flat6 has enough paying customers to keep them busy for the next several years...after all, all those folks who stall their cars at red lights have them flat-bedded out to Flat6 for rebuilds.
You underestimate the power of ignorance and denial. Don't assume that your average Joe who shows up at a Porsche dealer will actually bother to research anything (from maintenance to actual value) before buying. Even those that do read up on what they're buying are going to assume that
their
car will be "one of the good ones."
It's easy to feel crapped on when you are the one with the busted car, but the reality is that stuff breaks over time. If you answered the doorbell to find the guy who bought your house nine years ago complaining that the roof started leaking and demanding satisfaction, you'd likely give him the finger and encourage him to move along. Why is it so different that a car dealership is going to feel the same way about a vehicle they sold back when Jessica and Ashlee Simpson were in the Top 50, Janet Jackson was having wardrobe malfunctions, and LOST was actually worth watching?
Hard to remember, but we -- the Internet Porsche community -- are probably a smallish percentage of Porsche owners. It's likely that many of the issues we take for granted as common knowledge -- IMS bearing, RMS, AOS, intermix -- aren't common knowledge to the non-Internet Porsche owner.
As for Jake trolling the forum, I can't speak to that. But I doubt that a guy with a one year backlog on $20k engine rebuilds really needs to AstroTurf Internet forums to drum up business. And he has said in the past that most of his business is non-Internet Porsche owners.
Goes along with my comments above. Internet forums self select toward people who do extensive research, obsess over details, etc. Now think about your average John or Jane Q. Public who assumes that a $100,000 car is designed and built with an extraordinary level of quality and precision. Now you're telling him that he followed the factory maintenance schedule religiously and his engine self destructed anyway? Yup, he's gonna be pissed.
Personally, I would love to know what the % of 996/997 owners is who know about the issues with he M96/M97 engines. I suspect it's lower than you think it is.
LOL ^^
Hmmm...first post, name is PorscheProblems and comes on here to get all that off his chest. Whew! I'm not sure but "bore scoring" has probably been around since the first VW flat four. I don't know about you but I'm pretty darn happy with my lowly 99 996 C2 w/130,000 miles. If the engine blows then I'll accept that for a 15 year old car with those miles. I stalled at a red light once but oops, let out the clutch and didn't give it enough gas...driver error. OMG I should have blamed Porsche and gotten a new car!
To the OP - what is your service history? Oil? Service intervals? Before we embark on a witchhunt with pitchforks for all Porsche employees around the world...it would be interesting to know. Thanks.
YOU use a lot of YOU statements. Using YOU statements make ME think YOU are some sort of mind reader since YOUR use of YOU implies ME the reader has the problem.
Hint: Use "I" statements...that way folks might actually believe what YOU are saying.
Thanks....
ouch
Thank you for calling me an enthusiast. I am usually called much worse
And an FYI - I know it is kind of an apples to fruit comparison, but right now on ebay there are 39 2004 Porsche 911's for sale and 7 2004 Toyota Camry's for sale
Yeah, I guess the forum moderators are in on it too since Flat Six is a paying sponser.
I believe Jake is pretty busy trying to handle demand for his services while maintaining his standards for service.
You know what gets me is all the people that seemingly buy a Porsche with NOT one bit of research, proper PPI, maintenance records etc... then when something goes wrong they Blane the manufacturer.
I wouldn't buy any used car that way. So really, what do they expect?
It does suck when your Porsche goes south, but it you purchased another car for 20 cents on the dollar and got years of trouble-free service out of it, you'd probably be stoked. If this was a $25K Camry someone picked up for $5K and got 5 years of trouble-free service out of it, there wouldn't be any complaining.
Is this KrazyK's new account? Or do we have a troll who wants to spoil people's mood here?
Yesterday we had "Help, I have fallen at the red light and can't get up. Life alert to the rescue" thread, today we have "Porsche Problems".
Car was purchased from the main Porsche dealer at 2k miles, has been fully serviced at all the correct intervals and goes in regularly for tyre and oil checks..its been well maintained and has done less than average mileage, valeted and polished every two weeks. If I had reached 130k miles I too would be happy. Thanks though for pointing out that its my first posting I wasn't aware of that and its SHE actually - was hoping to get some advice on here from you GUYS since you know your cars better than us GALS however it seems that some of you are only capable of sarcasm!
Well, for a post soliciting "help" or "advice", all you did was slam the manufacturer.
1) That doesn't sell well here.
2) There's nothing we can do about your disdain for your car.
3) This forum is chock full of questions and answers, helpful pointers, and high-browed humor.
4) We, as a forum, can't un-buy your car for you...I'm sure you can get some help with specific issues.
You will have to excuse them. This can be a good forum with lots of useful information. It took me a while to figure it out. There are people put there who say the 996's engines are always 1 second away from needing a complete rebuild and they are a ticking time bomb. Then there are people who post here that say there are solutions to prevent this, but they are very expensive but must be done. Some people on this forum think the two are related.
I understand your frustration. Sounds like you did everything right and still got bit. Doesn't actually happen a lot but when it does it sucks.
You can vent here all you want, you just have to put up with them. They are not spiteful, just a little childish. And pretty funny.
Do you have a plan for the car? There is a lot of helpful information here from places for repair to advice on parting it out.
"You'll have to excuse THEM?"
Dude, you realize that she's (a) on the Internet, and (b) residing on another continent. The likelihood of you getting laid by being the special, understanding friend is very remote.
I was trying to remember where I'd heard that tone used on RL before, and I finally put my finger on it. You sound like KK writing to Raby.
When you say "correct" intervals you mean Porsche recommended 12,000 mile oil changes?
Because, I would not use that schedule with a Prius.
I change mine every 5,000 miles or less and I drive the crap out of my car like it was designed to be driven, letting it warm up to operating temperature before doing so of course.
Dude, you're killing me. That was the hardest I have laughed in a while. Thanks. I am just in a good mood because I finally got my car back and it runs sweet.
^^^ I second that. You guys are hilarious!! I am laughing out loud here in my office and my co-worker from next office walks in and asks what is so funny.
Ignore those sarcastic SOBs, all of 'em. They just don't know how to treat a lady, especially one with Porsche Problems.
I think I see the problem.... you should have been running the car on
tires
, and I don't know about using a Polish valet.
"How many Poles does it take to change an IMSB?" None. Whenever they open the hood, they think that the engine has been stolen."
Now that you have the rant out of the way what is it you are seeking? Advise? Do you have a specific question? What happened -- I can't read the entire opening post -- in a few sentences?
Lynne:
If the only problem with the engine is the cylinder scoring, call Autofarm (
www.autofarm.co.uk
) and get a quote for having your cylinders resleeved.
http://www.autofarm.co.uk/engines/wa...silsleeve_tech
You'll get a more robust engine, and it will cost you far less than having Porsche install a new one. It won't make you feel any better about Porsche shining you on because you don't spend enough money with them - but at least your car will be running again.
My original post was borne out of absolute disgust at how Porsche owners around the world have been treated by a 'world class' brand. I am more than aware that posting on these fantastic forums will not get me a new engine but at least it gives me a little satisfaction to know that I can at least get the last word in with Porsche, not just for me, but for all my fellow Porsche drivers around the world who have been similarly affected.
I was fully aware that when I stopped paying for a warranty that I could one day face an expensive repair which is fine, however when you start to research and find that you bought a car that most likely has defective components which is most likely to mean a new engine then even if I had a warranty in place I would be a little angry that I had paid it to cover a very common issue that should not come with a �50k+ price tag car.
I love my car, I love driving it, like many others out there its your dream car but you cannot help feeling extremely let down by the brand ......the long and short is they put a lot of cars out there with defects which they now know about - this is a bit like a builder selling houses that they know are going to blow up in 11 years but 'oh sorry, you are just out of your 10 year builders warranty...so you are just going to have to pay us to rebuild it or buy another one from us!'.....I'm just saying guys, that's all!
I can imagine the frustration you must feel having this experience. One expects a Porsche engine to be well built and certainly make it past 100k miles without major trouble (as most engines from any manufacturer could reasonably be expected to).
However, having operated a repair shop, owning half a dozen of these (including tracking them), rebuilding engines and so forth, my overall impression of the quality of Porsches in general or the 996 Carrera motors in particular are different than yours. Even though I occasionally look for a 996 with a broken motor, I don’t come across that many of them. I did not see any evidence of bore distortion even on a 170,000 mile 3.6 I rebuilt, though of course all engines will fail one way or another. By the way, I would be interested in knowing what year your car was, if you would share that with us. In any case, sorry for your trouble, it’s never fun when it happens to you, and good luck whatever you decide.
To the OP, I get your frustration. A similar experience for me. I sold my religiously serviced 117k mile blown engine 996 at a loss. It hurt after being a loyal Porschephile with 4 previous 911 air cooled cars that were bullet proof. I was extremely frustrated. I bought a Mustang GT and it's taken me several years to come back to Porsche ownership. Ignore the attention ****** and filter to get the other good advice you will find here. You do have options, none inexpensive however.
To the OP - truly sorry to hear of your plight. In my experience I lost an engine at 37k miles on my 04 C4S. The local Porsche dealers original response was that Porsche would do nothing as good will because I purchased the car private party and I was the 4th owner. I requested that they at least make an attempt. They used a formal claim process and the initial claim was denied, they then filed an appeal and after Porsche reviewed the service history on that car and believe it or not, on my other 2004 996, they did provide a crate engine covered by good will. I offer this only to let you know that at times Porsche does assist even though they are under no technical obligation to do so. Not sure how your issue is/was handled, but perhaps if the formal process was not followed it might be worth a try.
Best of luck to you.
To the OP, a small percentage of 996 and 997 owners have had catastrophic failures of their Porsche's engine. Of that small percentage, a lot of those come to an internet forum like Rennlist to vent their frustrations with the car and Porsche's handling of the situation. They have every right to.
Understand, though, that the owners who've not had problems and possibly never will are tired of hearing their car get bashed endlessly so take some of the comments here with a grain of salt.
I will agree that in this day and age one should be able to buy a relatively low mileage Honda, Toyota or Porsche and expect it to perform trouble free for years to come. Porsche has dropped the ball on this one.
Jake and a few others knowledgeable about these engines are beginning to form the theory that cold starts below 5C may contribute to the scoring issue in M96's. I store my car up here (Canada) usually around early Nov and don't start it (at all) until its above 10C which is usually in May. There is also some correlation to years of build, 2004's - 2006's seem to suffer with this issue just from talking with local Rennlist/PCA members in my area.
So, how do you reconcile any/all of:
2.0L piston failures from ignition problems
2.0L (splash feed) and up to 3.0L (pressure feed) chain tensioners
2.7L mag cases, and head stud pulling
2.7L-3.2L Alusil cylinders
3.0-3.2L head stud breakage
and last but not least, valve guides on all of them (though up until the 3.2L it was disguised by the need to replace them from tensioner failure or as part of a comprehensive repair on a pulled stud rebuild).
None of the above were warrantied, all of the above basically kept Porsche shops in business for a quarter century from the early '70s through the late '90s.
(And I won't even get into the front engined sports cars of '76-'95.)
Out of my track buddies and coffee friends. I counted up how many are on there second engine. 13 out of 19 996's are on their second engine for various reasons. I also know 4 997's 1 of which blew it's 3rd engine and the owner has given up on it and is now looking for a 997 turbo with a mezger. Out of the 996's that don't have issues, they are all like your self and cars don't get driven in winter.
I am also starting to think it has to do with running the cars in cold climates and believe the ethanol in our gas is causing more engine wear that results in this scoring. If you google engine scoring you will see it popping up on BWM, Subaru and probably a lot of others so it just not Porsche. Also other engines that are used in mills that were forced to run E10 gas in the USA found that their engines soon had issues or failures.
Ok, I'm curious about this one.
Why would ethanol and or E10 gas cause bore scoring? I kind of see the cold temp theory, but ethanol...I don't know?
I have one theory why more car manufacturers are having problems is because they are using automated processes and they can have closer tolerances, which if you treat your engine like crap, more of these issues will crop up. And, since a lot of this stuff is automated now, it's hard to have QC processes in place to check these things, other than breaking the engine in for a couple of hours.
Side note,
I've seen newer Jeeps having oil consumption issues and it comes down to rings on the pistons have issues, can't remember the exact reason, I just know it's been an issue in the newer Jeeps.
So, it's not only Porsche having these QC problems, it's other manufactures as well. It also makes you wonder if all of these types of problems were present long ago before the internet? Like someone posted before, Porsche has had problems with things in the past. Heck, go look at the FAQ on pelicans site(I think it's there), it talks about some of the NO head gasket used in the late 70's engines, at least that's what I remember.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Just some links to ethanol, problem gets worse as the level increases.
the-risks-of-e15-fuel-blends-are-real
Does Ethanol Cause Chainsaw Failures?
A Corny Solution
