Not an RMS Problem?

Gents, I recently (about 1month ago) had my RMS and IMS done whilst having a clutch change and major service done on my 2003 996 C2 CAB by a local Indepedant who I have been using for years with previous Porsches. However, there is still a small amount of oil leaking from a nearby area, which concerns me. Anyway, it takes about 100 or so miles to accumulate what you see in the attached picture, but wondered if anyone knew the exact location of this leak (i.e. what the part is called). The leak is definitely coming from where the yellow arrow is, as I have cleaned off a few times and re-checked and it comes from exactly this point. For the record the actual RMS adjacent to this is bone dry and I understand it had the latest 997 seal installed. I know this is probably not too much to worry about as the leak is slight, but would appreciate any comments. btw; my car runs Mobil water, i.e. 0W40 viscosity. Many thanks, Dave

sure its not coming from the top right bolt... which is RMS.

That's the RMS leaking...

This could also be a very early symptom of impending IMS bearing failure, especially since they replaced the bearing flange at the time the RMS was done.. This oil appears to be clean, so thats good since the oil that generally leaks from the IMS failures is a nasty, black oil thats become trapped within the IMS for a long period of time. Its not bad now and the revised RMS seldom give any issues, but I would keep a watch on it.

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Geez, if that doesn't keep you up at night (quote above), what will? Why would you jump straight into a hypothesis that this could be an early symptom of IMS failure? Seems to me that if this was replaced a month ago, might be better to take it back to the shop and have them address it specifically. I know it's tough to warrant seals, but come on, a month??? Just my $0.02. (EDIT: Now I see this is becoming more of a "scare thread" - which is okay I guess - I'm outta here! Seems to me this is best handled with the shop rather than speculation and worst-case scenarios)

Welcome to the slippery slope and ever eternal attempt of trying to get the damn RMS to seal.

Just wanted to add some pictures to Jake's theory. Short story. I thought I had the early symptoms of an RMS leak. The leak was not bad and I decided to wait until the leak became worse or the clutch needed replacing. IMS bearing ended up failing and I now have a new engine. Moral of story is don't wait! I firmly believe I could have repaired the IMS bearing prior to failiure had I investigated the leak. Link to pics: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...sche%20Engine/

Thanks Chaps/Doug. I'll get on to the shop and see what they say. The only reservation I have is that the seal I think is leaking is where my arrow is, not where the RMS is located to the top right of picture. I'm certain that it is leaking by my arrow, as I have cleaned the oil off a few times. Anyway, thanks for the comments, I'll let you know how I get on. Dave

Because thats a reality and its also the worst case scenario.. I always consider the worst case scenario and try to prepare for it, while hoping for the best. With ANYTHING mechanical this is the only mind set to have if you intend to win. Why did I make my earlier statement?? Because of issues just like the one quoted below... I hate to see him end up like oneyedjack and others that call me on a weekly basis that had an oil leak, thought it was an RMS and then out of the blue they have an IMS bearing failure.. Upon disassembly the RMS was bone dry. The RMS and IMS leak oil at the same spot, thanks to gravity... BUT it is a possibility that your shop did not have the 400.00 Porsche tool for installing the revised RMS and to do the job correctly this tool is required. I have installed thousands of seals, but without the tool this one kicked my ***. oneyedjack, If this IMS bearing issue would have happened to you today, we **probably** could have saved the engine with our recent developments related to the IMS bearing failure.

Jake, I hate to say it but I was "one of those that called you" albeit, too late. Had I dug into it before it became fatal, I could have installed one of your revised bearings. The replacement crate engine came with the revised IMS "double row" bearing and is not servicable, at least without splitting the case. So I currently have to put all my faith into the factory's revised design. I think too many people are quick to blame RMS without actually removing the tranny and clutch to investigate the true source of the leak. At least in my case, I knew I had a minor leak and had I addressed it and repaired the IMS bearing, I would have saved the engine. Have a look at the picture link in my previous post, my RMS was fine. All my leaking came from a failing IMS bearing "wobbling" the shaft until the screw finally sheared at the end plate/seal.

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The above is a classic example. I can only hope that more people read this post and do more than just deny that the IMS issue exists. Jack, I am sorry that you experienced this failure and had to endure the costs and etc that is associated with it. I know DOZENS of engines that could have been saved (and now can be saved much easier with our new processes) when the IMS bearing starts to scream to the Owner that it is going bad. If in doubt, verify.

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That's what I was wondering, especially with the RMS replacement being only a month old...

Humor me..... how does a bearing starting to fail cause an oil leak?

996BKM, Here's an article about the RMS that will explain things http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...e=post&id=3223 The new 997 seal has to be set back 5 mm with a special Porsche tool. The RMS sits directly above the IMS inside the housing, so either one leaking could show up in that general vicinity. Just before he passed away, Jim Pasha had a article in the Dec 2008 issue of Excellence "M96: Past, Present, and Future" which basically explains IMS failures. Jake Raby (Flat 6 Innovations) and LN Engineering are quoted extensively in that article. If you can find it, it's worth a read. IMHO the takeaway message from all this information is that many oil leaks in the area of the RMS/IMS could be nothing. BUT, a symptom of a lot of the engines which have had serious problem was an oil leak.

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Exactly. In my opinion it is prudent to go ahead and investigate the source of the leak rather than discount it as "not too bad" and wait for clutch wear, etc. to address. I did not mean to say that all leaking IMS seals are a sign of impending IMS bearing failure. No conspiracy here. In my case, my original engine had a single row IMS sealed bearing that could have been replaced without splitting the case. I MIGHT (just might) have noticed this during an IMS seal replacement. As to how a failing bearing may cause a leak, the IMS bearings are sealed ball bearings similar to wheel bearings not plain type bearings. When they fail, the IMS wobbles and puts stress on the IMS seal/endplate compromising the seal. This by the way, is a wild *** guess.

Rear of engine, IMS (intermediate shaft) and RMS (rear main seal) shown. Upon disassembly, engine had updated rear main seal. Engine has early style IMS with smaller diameter nut. Dry RMS but oil collected around IMS and case bell-housing possibly sign of impending IMS failure. This engine was thought to have an RMS leak when pulled. This engine was disassembled and did have a failing IMS bearing (dual row). If this issue had arisen today (this pic was taken 8 months ago) this early symptom of failure could have saved the owner of the engine 13,000 bucks as we can now replace the dual row bearing WITHOUT complete engine disassembly.

thats an interesting pic you have there.... tells a 1000 words. Do you see this often upon cracking open the bell housing? and what model year was it?

Case bolts leak, ims seals leak, ims bolts leak, thats fine. How does a failing bearing cause the leak. (obviously at time of failure the nut is sheared off and all the oil comes out)

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Are there any telltale signs of an impending IMS bearing failure from a used oil analysis? Sudden spike in what? Iron? Lead? Chromium? Copper?

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Not really because the bearing is a sealed unit.. Until it fails it won't really release any wear metal into the engine's oil.

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There is often a tell-tale "death rattle" - ask me how I know.

for those of you changing clutches... should be part of regular maintenance to replace the single row bearing when your doing the clutch... do all the re-man motors have a double row bearing...? if we can't replace the double row bearing with a new and improved one a la Jake Raby's design... can we replace the double row bearing with the same porsche unit as part of regular maintenance ever 2-4 years? the benefit here is not splitting your engine apart and incurring tons of costs in labour and re-install...

No, the reman engines could have any bearing depending upon when they were remanufactured. You must not have seen our newest development- The ability to retrofit the dual row bearing. Here is a link to the article on my site. http://www.flat6innovations.com/savi...e-ims-retrofit The dual row Porsche bearing can't be bought. Even if it could be you wouldn't want to reinstall one! I omit Porsche parts where possible and apply overkill engineering, thats why our retrofit bearing is a hybrid ceramic bearing with silicon nitride rollers. This bearing can now be swapped as often as you'd like with the tools and components that we just began the patent process on. Yep, read the article I posted above and you'll see that we now can retrofit the dual and single row bearings. I am doing an extreme RPM test today on one of our test cars recently upgraded to the DRIMS retrofit bearing. Eight hours at 7K RPM should suffice and hopefully I won't have to stop very often to allow it to cool down :-)

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Jake... that's great info... thx for the link and let us know how that 8 hour 7,000 rpm test goes!

If that is a picture of the car AFTER the repair, the the case bolts don't look they were replaced with the updated parts. The one closest to the trans should be the later "Torx" parts

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Why not test it how it will be used in the real world? Steady rpm does not do much to determine if a bearing sound. That would be like testing a wheel bearing to see how long it would last without the shock or the road beating the hell out of it. Couple it with continuous load and torque changes and you would have yourself a more conclusive test.

Trust me, it will be. I drive this car 86 miles a day and if I am not driving it, my Wife is and she drives 70 miles/ day. The car/ engine have hundreds of dyno pulls on them, it's logged about 1700 miles just on my rollers. I am trying to accelerate wear and issues and trying to force a failure if one can be forced to help speed up the testing. I am taking a break now and giving the dyno a rest. We'll be pulling this bearing to re-measure it and check for wear next month, then we'll reinstall it and go from there with another round. As far as the bolts, which picture are you referring to?? The one I have posted in this thread, or the ones from my IMS retrofit article?

The bolts I was refering to is in a Porsche TSB during 2004. Porsche supply new Torx head micro encapsulated for both the case (4 off) and IMS housing (3 off) for use when either replacing the clutch, IMS or any work in that area. It also makes it easier on a PPI to see if the trans has ever been out in the last 3 years.

Thats what I thought... I didn't use the bolts for a reason but I have a whole bin full of them.

Jake, if I wanted the upgraded IMS bearings, flange, and bolts, do you think my local Porsche shop (owner is a POC instructor) could comprehend the procedure or will they be "closed minded" about Porsche procedures when dealing with the IMS? The reason I ask is because the upgrade seems like the way to go but if I had to ship my car to your shop in GA from CA, it would almost make the entire "upgrade" costly. I realize that the answer to my question is dependent on different shops, owners or mechanics but have you had the chance to "tutor" other shops, owners or mechanics on your process?

At this time we are not offering this as a preventive,unless we do the work and you agree to be a beta tester. This is because it is risky as I point out in the article. I have cars on the way from California, New Jersey and Ohio now to have this done. In due time LN Enginerring and I will make this a kit for the DIY owner or shop with a DVD to guide you on the installation, but we are dedicated to the total development of the package and technology until then. Today's testing went well, wait until you see what I put this engine through... The headers were ready to melt!