What winter DD for $15k?

So a bit off porsche topic, but my winter DD and airport car got totaled last week after I rear ended a Suburban at 5 mph. And I need to replace it. I live in the Midwest so we get a fair amount of snow. Originally I had a 2001 A6 4.2, which other than being old and parts breaking was a great car that I now wish I had kept, traded it in November last year for a Lexus GS450h, that I really liked, very quiet, fast and with winter tires was ok in the snow but not great. This car just got totaled so looking for another. I don't really want to spend more than $15k, but tempted to spend more for a newer car. I was thinking: 1. Buy another A6 beater for under $7k drive it and take the risk it breaks down or has issues' 4.2, heated steering wheel...nice 2. Buy a 2007-08 newer shape A6 for around $15k, but I don't really love the shape. Like the heated steering wheel though 3. Buy a 2005 S4 cabriolet, good fun in the summer with the kids and still great in the winter 4. Spend $25k on a B7 S4 cab as I think they look better 5. Buy a $10k 2.0T a4 saloon and save the gas! 6. E500 4 matic for around $15k, lots of luxury, but again potential for big bills As you can see I'm leaning towards Audi's as the Quattro in winter is a no brianer, after the GS450 I want to go with 4WD. As mentioned for 5-6 months of the year this will be my winter DD, driving through the salt and crap we have on roads here, I also will be leaving it at the airport once a month as I don't like leaving the 911 so it doesn't get the doors dinked. And finally I need to cart 2 kids around at various times for sports (I say this as I was tempted to get an old boxter! at one stage). Any insight would be appreciated, I am genuinely looking for input

Any cheap FWD car with an awesome set of winter tires. And a good deal of caution. Or, you can go for a domestic 4WD SUV with a good set of snows. But that will take a toll on your self-esteem. Winter cars are, by design, disposable. Either through accidents or corrosion. I wouldn't invest too much in them.

Meant to add that it needs to be a saloon as an SUV won't fit under my lift! I agree a domestic SUV would be perfect if it were not for the above

lets back up to this: how does a GS450 get totaled from a 5mph collision? was the suburban lifted? We have a mb 4matic and just went through a winter with more snow than I have ever experienced and it behaved flawlessly... but for 15k, and if you are into it, find a e30 325xi and have fun with it + money left over for repairs (I am an e30 fan)

'04-'07 Volvo S60R?

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Infiniti M35x. Wish I'd never sold mine.

Plenty of choices out there nowadays for a $15K throwaway solid used car. Japanese AWDs with lower maintenance costs. Acura RL Infiniti M35X Lexus GS Subarus German - Audi A6 MB BMW VW R32s In another 5 years, the German diesel AWD sedans will come into play.

2001-2006 E46 325/328/330i x is way better than any VW/Audi piece of crap from the mid-2000's.

You forgot the best Audi in that price range - D2 S8. All aluminum, 360 HP V8, Quattro, Tiptronic, Recaros, Brembos, incredible build quality inside and out. They were Audi's flagship of the era and it shows. Many of the annoying issues suffered by lesser Audis are not found in the S8 because they don't share the parts, cluster pixel fade is one good example. I sold mine because I no longer needed a sedan and still miss it, I wish I had garage space for another one. Just one data point, mine was a 2002 with 95k, 2nd owner, service records since new, nearly mint condition, and it sold for $12,500. If you don't mind taking a step down in interior quality, a WRX, Legacy GT, or Forester XT would give you AWD and flat-four turbo goodness.

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After three BMWs and two Minis, you couldn't give me another BMW product. Great to drive, but appalling quality inside and out when you consider the price point. I don't know how anyone that works on their own car can stand owning one. Both of my E36s were quite literally falling apart inside with just over 100k.

All my BMW's have been great and some up to 240k without burning a drop of oil. Like any German car though, the higher you get in miles, the more attention it needs. I do like the more sophisticated awd and interior of Audi's but if you want a "driver's car", its hard to beat the sporting driving dynamics of the BMW. I will say the thing I like about used higher mileage BMW's is that their reliability is the most predictable out of the European cars. You can expect the water pump, cab, rsm, disa, fuel pump, etc. to go out at predictable predetermined timeframes with a good level of consistency. Unlike other European cars where things just go out for no rhyme or reason all over the place. I personally like wagons but regardless, many consider the e46 chassis the last generation before it got really bloated and too comfy. For around $15k, I'd get a beat up(engine wise) e46 sedan or wagon, do an lsx swap, budget for some snow tires and call it a day. That way you'll have a backup ls motor if your m96 motor ever fails. Lol. J/k

I had a 2005 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT that I had since new, great car with a bit more grown up interior than the other Subaru's. Only issue I ever had with it was a clutch throw out bearing. Sold it a few months ago for $13,500 with 80k miles.

I had a 2.7T C5 A6, put 40something K miles on it and sold it at 140K. Fantastic cars!

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subframe

I was in the same exact situation last year and had to replace my Jetta TDI. I scoured the internet for a few weeks and got very lucky. I found a 1989 BMW 4 door 325ix sedan (all wheel drive) with less than 50k miles. It needed some deferred maintenance but nothing catastrophic budget wise. I do not have to bring it to the dealer, ever, which will be a huge ongoing maintenance plus. If the auto matic transmission ever breaks, I can swap in a manual trans and the car would be even more fun. Needless to say, my budget for my P-cars upgrades will be enhanced with this astute decision.

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1. Yes, E46 interiors can look quite terrible after 8+ years. A/B/C pillars will wrinkle. Cup holders and the center console compartment will scratch as well. Solution: You can buy all new A/B/C pillars and center console items for less than $300 new. 2. As already mentioned all the engine components are easily serviced at home with basic tools (for euro cars) and are inexpensive and found anywhere. 3. Subframe crack - Rare to begin with, any Audi turbo failure, which could be considered more common, is just as costly of not more. 4. You can get an E46 is relatively solid shape + interior dress up for about 1/2 of the budget you have.

Cayenne Turbo? S60/V70R otherwise, BMW is the best car to own used vs. Benz(electrics)/Audi(nightmare to work on)

Not sure if it fits under your lift or not, but I picked up a 2 door Jeep Wrangler for the winter months (and summer too!) and that thing is a blast to drive in the snow. I've had a few Audis and those are great too, but I will never be without a Wrangler in the stable. Going on 3 years now and nothing but minor maintenance.

Jeep Grand Cherokee with remote starter parked in the driveway?

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For that matter, how about an older FZJ80 Land Cruiser or 3rd gen 4Runner? Bomb proof SUVs that will run forever, go through any variety of winter weather, and can be had in good condition for well under $10k. My FJ80 Land Cruiser had 200k on it when I sold it, the only major repairs (records since new) were a fuel pump and water pump. I wish I had never sold it.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/winte...er-dollar10000

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I don't think subframe is an issue with AWD models just like the AWD platform don't beat up the front control arm bushings like the RWD models. My 325XI/5 bought new has 133K miles on it and can't find a better substitute for a daily beater/city/train station car. It's worth $6K...

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+1 Had 2005 2.5GT as well. Ours was wagon. We sold it with 130k miles. Very reliable car mechanically, but interior pieces tend to fall off faster than Honda/Toyota. Body sheetmetal seemed to be on a thin side. Mechanically good, but fit and finish was not exactly top notch. Great DD I would say.

+1 on the Audi D2 S8. The last hand-built car that Audi made, all aluminum flagship sports sedan. Great drivers car, incredible on snowy roads, luxury, comfort and well w/in your budget. You should be able to pick up an excellent example for <$10k and keep a fund for repairs. The only real issue w/ these cars is the tranny, but they can be rebuilt very reliably in Chicago for cheap. Take a test drive and see for yourself if you like it. If you miss your A6 4.2, you will be very impressed by the S8. Lighter, bigger and faster!

Subaru forester. You can get XT with manual transmission for 1/2 of your $15k. XT will stay with 996 in 0-60MPH sprint and looks cool too. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...25xt-road-test

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My old one. I've owned a lot of really great cars, this one was the most impressive from the standpoint of materials and build quality. Absolutely built like a tank with the best of everything. Made driving in snow laughably easy, even with AS tires. In 10k I did regular maintenance and replaced a fan clutch and HVAC fan. If it had a stick I would have kept it forever, I liked it enough that I even seriously considered a transmission swap.

'04-'07 S60R or V70R 300hp/295tq AWD Manual (or automatic if you prefer) Wagon option (fast wagons are cool...to me, at least) -Eric

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I've got a feeling you're pulling these stats our of your ***... For what it's worth both my E46 M3 (50K) miles and my brother's 325 (30K miles) subframes were cracked, stock suspension on both. Considering there's a recall on the subframe fix, it's hardly a rare. I would budget 1200 bucks for any E46 (aside from a cabrio) to get the subframe fixed. If anything, it's the VANOS issues that are kind of rate, but expensive. That being said, if you wanna spend the north end of that budget, you literally cannot beat an E46 M3 as a daily driver. I do and forever will love that car. As per my other post, I sold my 2.7T A6 with 140+K miles, original turbos with no issues. It's not as if audi makes the turbos, they're all from Garret/ BW If my mind serves me right.

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I honestly have no idea, I know the convertible didn't have subframe issues due to the extra bracing. It could be similar for the AWD cars? Though I'd imagine AWD version has the same subframe anchor points.

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Not to mention the fact that it's far more than $300 to replace your entire interior with new BMW parts, and that there's no excuse for a German luxury car interior to self-destruct before the car even hits 100k. Just inside on my E36s I encountered: Material peeling from pillars Headliner drooping Upper door panel warped by the sun and no longer catching door frame Door panel inserts peeling Dash airbag insert sun warped Door sill plastic brittle and cracking Seat trim plastic brittle and cracking Premature leather wear Display pixel failure Interior control module failure More rattles than I could ever dream of resolving Everything plastic was subject to cracking when disturbed - panels, snaps, clips, etc From the E46s I've looked at, they are no better quality. The 2.7T A6 are fantastic cars, but in all fairness if you ever have to replace the turbos you will hate life. Never trust a turbo car where you can't even see the turbos. One thing I love about the S8 is that the engine bay was sized to fit the W12, so there's adequate space to actually work on it.

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I think the AWD drive train may be the reinforcement needed to keep subframe from cracking. I have yet to hear an AWD subframe issue.

2006 BMW 330xi with snows, been rock solid for the last 80K miles. It's an E90 so the interior wears a lot better than my wife's E46 M3. If you can do you own wrenching, they are cheap to own, otherwise you're doing things like paying $350 for a new battery install vs. paying $75 for a new battery and $15 for the cable and software to reset the battery mgmt module. 2007+ 335xi would be faster, but $15K isn't going to go very far there and the turbo/DFI setup has many more "issues". Between the four cars (three are German) and many, many motorcycles, I already have enough to wrench on.

I attribute BMW subframe to IMS. It happens but can often be overblown on the net which then prompts people to fix a "potential" problem more out of fear. Of the 4-5 dozen people I have personally come in contact via bmwcca meets, I've never met one with the issue. Theoretically you might have a greater chance if you run aftermarket sways/spring and always auto-x it. As for interiors, I buy BMW's to drive and for the driving dynamics first and foremost. If I wanted a pretty interior, I'd buy an Audi for sure. I'd rather have the interior fall apart than the engine. Actually some have said the same thing about 996 interiors... Bottom line is OP should get a car based on his priorities which is going to be different for everyone.

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You are smoking crack if you think the 2.7T A6 is a better car than an non-M E46 . They are the same money used, from the same era and the 2.7T will go down in history as one of the biggest fails in Audi history. My god, look at all the nightmare stories on turbos failing, timing belt reaplcement, yes that "GERMAN" awesomeness the 2.7T is has a fukking timing belt that is 1,000 miles long and has 40 tensioners on it that should all be replaced. Want to budget $1200 for a subframe crack that affect 1 in 10,000 cars fine? Prepare for a *** raping timing belt service on a 2.7T which you cant avoid. You have to take the front radiator support and everything forward of the timing cover off the car to do it. Id much rather spend 30 minutes of my life popping new a-pillars on my car vs getting owned at the Audi dealer. Give me a break. Who's really talking out of their *** now?

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This is a bit overblown. It takes about 10 minutes to pull the front bumper and put the core support in service position.

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This takes 10 minutes? You are an amazing wrench.

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You do realize that's not the service position, right? For timing belt, all you gotta do is this:

The front end of the Audis is actually hinged to allow service access, i.e. the "service position". I wasn't aware that timing belts were the sign of an inferior car, better phone Honda, Toyota, Ferrari, Porsche, and a host of others to tell them the news. Maybe they could install a timing chain in exchange for an interior that falls apart?

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Nobody cares about your E36 interior experience. That car is 15+ years old now. I had two e36s with over 100k on them and they were fine - One I replaced the headliner and it had a hole in the driver lower seat bolster after 151K miles. So what? Original VANOS on both and they were tracked. Maybe you should do a better job of taking care of your car. 150K old E36 sedan interior 100K old E36 coupe interior

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You are right. The entire process is a piece of cake. Thats why the Audi dealer charges at least 5.5 hours of labor to do the TB service.

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You mean the same amount of time as an Accord?

I like bunnies

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Awful touchy, aren't you? I thought you said that the interior falls apart, but it's cheap and easy to replace the parts? I've owned a good many European cars, both older and newer than my E36s. I've never encountered one that suffered from material failure (not neglect) more quickly. From the newer cars that I've looked at, I don't think they've improved in this department either. Back on topic for a moment, will a Cayenne fit under your lift? I've noticed a good number of sub-100k Cayenne S for sale in the $15k and under range recently. They are getting pretty affordable.

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The 6 speed v6 cayenne would be neat; it's not exactly easy to find SUVs in manual.

They made a few of the GTS models with the V8 and a 6-speed. That sounds like fun, but way more than $15k.

996C4??

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FWD or front bias AWD vehicles are patently UNSAFE, even HAZARDOUS for the very same reason a 4WD/4X4 should NEVER be driven "at speed" locked in one of those modes. Both will "get up and go" easier, more quickly than a RWD (other than the few rear engine RWD vehicles), but once underway you want to dedicate front traction, MARGINAL traction, to lateral control. All in all, I'll stick with RWD or even rear biased AWD. The only FWD based vehicles that can do that have the SH-AWD system.

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Ford Ranger xtra-cab with RWD.

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Umm, huh? Are you advocating that a RWD vehicle is better in the snow than a FWD, AWD, or 4x4? Because with equal tires (very important) I would take either a FWD, AWD, or 4x4 over a RWD all day long. RWD and no weight over the rear wheels. You can't find a worse vehicle for the snow.

Here are my thoughts on what I think wwest is coming from and I could be totally wrong. I have or had every single drivetrain configuration possible(currently have fwd-ff, rwd-fr/rr, awd in my stable). When making a turn in snow/rain, on my FWD I would most likely understeer and plow into a tree or go up the curb and lawn for example, where as my rwd car would just spin 90-360 degrees in place without plowing into anything. RWD or any form of sophisticated awd(I have an MDX w/sh-awd) system would let you turn in(sometimes too much) which is better than going straight via heavy understeer and plowing into something.

^. That is true if no brakes are applied due to excessive speed. In a scenario where a problem like this arises, it is because one is going in hot. Understeer will come in play regardless from FWD or locking up front wheels. Moral if the story. Proper winter tires for any vehicle driven during the winter.

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Mostly true, but one of the best things about a FWD or 4wd is the ability of those powered front wheels to pull you through the turn when you start to understeer. In my F150 4x4 I drive in the snow with the traction control disabled, as like a stupid idiot it simply cuts power when it detects any slip. With the traction control off, a little goose of the throttle pulls the front end through the corner quite nicely. In a RWD your front tires don't have the digging ability, so if you fail to rotate the rear end you are SOL.

I love my 2004 VW R32. Solid, smooth, fun and practical.

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Yeah it's assuming you have traction on those front wheels at the time. One's preference will depend on if you have Jenson's driving style or Lewis's.

Only on the internet you have RWD cars being touted superior to FWD and AWD in the winter condition, and oversteer being more desirable in the adverse condition to understeer. FWD is safe for a reason. With proper winter tires, any understeer you encounter is easily corrected by slowing down. Understeer is easy to correct and much easier to manage than oversteer. There is a BIG reason why 911 now has the ridiculous oversized tires on the rear and why all German RWD cars have tons of ABS/EPS/Traction/ESR systems. The reason for that is that 95% of people cannot handle and control oversteer in the critical situation. I know that everyone on the internet is an ex-F1 or ex-WRC or professional stunt drive or Stig's cousin who calmly guides his car through ice covered turns at full lock while going 120MPH and sipping the coffee. However, outside of internet most people can't recover an oversteer situation in the RWD car. Old 911s were widow markers because very few people have skills and abilities to properly handle the RWD vehicles at the limit. Adverse road conditions only add another level of difficulty to driving the RWD car. FWD or AWD with snow tires will always be superior to RWD car on the snow tires. Anyone with basic common sense can keep a FWD or AWD car from understeering in turns, watch your speed and that is it. With RWD car, you have deficient traction when starting to move and have to be extremely careful with throttle in the turns; lift oversteer and throttle induced oversteer are easy to provoke on any RWD vehicle in adverse conditions. Most people cannot correct it, as basic reaction for the average driver is to slam the brakes in the critical situation.

2006 530xi. They don't rust. Not a bad interior. Without the turbos the engines will go for a few hundred thousand miles. Unstoppable in the snow with snow tires. Plenty of room for the kids.

Btw the real widow maker is the GT2 as it was 430+hp rwd WITHOUT traction control. I don't have ***** big enough to drive that thing given my judgement or there lack of...

+1 on the abilities of Acura's SH-AWD. And, there is real truth to the concept of an AWD being able to pull you through the corner. Our MDX does it phenomenally. But, as others pointed out, you do have to cut the speed before the corner, and you can get back on the power mid-curve. AWD is still the fastest safest way to drive in snow. I was going to suggest to the OP an MDX or RDX. If these are too tall to fit beneath the lift in the garage, try a TL or RL sedan with the system.

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I took driver's ed in Norway, Petter Solberg was my instructor.

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If that's the case, I don't know how you can effectively do the Scandinavian Flick with a fwd. E-brake can only do so much.

Thanks for all the feedback, seems we are as passionate about our Audis and BMWs as we are our Porsches. Thanks for the inputs, it helped make the decision to buy a proper winter beater sub $10k, than my usual process of stretching the budget and buying newer cars. So it’s an older cheaper A4, A6 or 3 or 5 series, I’ll make the pick based on the best condition and mileage car that come up in the coming months. Good news is that the weather is getting better and I am 1 suspension bolt away from the first spring drive. The bolt arrives at the dealer Tuesday but I will be away until the 17th, so looking forward to lots of Easter 996 driving at last. Side note was that my neighbor dropped by today to show me his 997 C2S Cab that he has just bought, nice car. Interestingly he is a car guy, had corvettes before and watched all the corvette forums. In talking I was surprised he had not read about the IMS stories, he is another 911 driver enjoying his car and not stressing…good man!