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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCH997.1 motor into 996.2 C4 done... now P0413 CEL
Reported or suspected cause
996 is not turning
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported cause · Original poster
Problem is my 996 is not turning on the 996 SAI connector and I cannot figure out why.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The 996 when it was original never had any SAI issues so I know it has to be connected to something I've done with the engine swap or something has changed because of the engine swap.
Leading evidence: '996 is not turning' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is '996 is not turning' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Replace because of the engine swap' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The 996 when it was original never had any SAI issues so I know it has to be connected to something I've done with the engine swap or something has changed because of the engine swap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Suggestion
So your SAI relay �power input de-pinned and a new ground lead added instead� method of changing the control could work great!
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Suggestion
That changes the internal coding to ignore SAI errors.
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Replace because of the engine swap
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The 996 when it was original never had any SAI issues so I know it has to be connected to something I've done with the engine swap or something has changed because of the engine swap.
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Suggestion
I may be wrong, but looks like you could just run the wring to the air pump, make sure the supporting vacuum hoses arrangement are hooked to to function as intended, and should work.
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Outcome without a verified action link
The DME does that at cold start and whenever the SAI test is needed by the DME (usually when the engine is still not fully warmed up and you idle the engine after a short drive).
So I got the motor in and everything runs fine, still have some things to do including the how to photo story that is in process...the car runs well, has a few hesitations and grumbles but nothing much. Now I need to get it smogged...
Questions for y'all:
CEL came on - It's throwing the secondary air valve code P0413 on cold start up. If I erase the codes after the car is started, the CEL doesn't come back on until the next cold start. Hot starts don't seem to trigger it.
On the 997, there isn't a secondary air pump so thus no place to hook up the 996 one to the motor.
According to some research hereabouts, the ECU measures the voltage of the secondary pump to determine whether it is working. Can anyone confirm that? If that is the case, could I install a resistance across the pump connector that would simulate that voltage drop? I'm thinking it would likely have to be via a relay so that it's not always present.
Is it possible to delete the secondary air pump requirement from the ECU programming? Is there a laptop option that can do that?
If I pull the ECU from the donor 997, would that be the easiest solution? Is that even possible? Would it screw up anything else on the 996?
Thanks to all of those who've helped me get this far.
The M97.01 and the M96.05 still has a secondary air pump but seems to be a much simpler configuration than the M96.01/02/03/05. The 997 air pump is mounted under the intake, instead of near the left rear tail light. I may be wrong, but looks like you could just run the wring to the air pump, make sure the supporting vacuum hoses arrangement are hooked to to function as intended, and should work.
not sure if i's my computer or your posting but all I see is a massive amount of data lines where your photos should be...
Understood on your reply tho, I'll try to find some photos from the 997 removal...I don't recall that I looked at it specifically when I was pulling the 997 motor. I hope the connector is somewhat reachable, I don't want to pull the motor out again!!
ha! That looks much better...now I just have to figure out where the connector is but that's a great start... I wonder if it's now in the main engine plugs on the passenger side...?
Hey Pete,
I emailed particlewave yesterday but have yet to hear back about his fix.
Do you have more info on the delete?
Is that something I can have a local tuner do? Or a local indie P mechanic?
I'm doubting the P dealer would do it, right? :-)
On the 996 ECU/DME what you want is the ROW (rest of world) flash. That changes the internal coding to ignore SAI errors. Try the ECUDoctors
https://www.ecudoctors.com/
This is a specialized area and you don't want to screw this up. If the local indie has the PIWIS system, then I believe they can do it as well. Durametric does not do coding.
Mechanically there's few ways to delete the SAI system. The quick & dirty one is just to remove the pump and plug the hose. More elegant way is to remove everything even remotely related to the system and plug holes on heads. I did that with freeze plugs (996/Mezger engine). Programming has already been discussed.
Are you running a 996 DME (ECU) and using the 996 engine harness?
The DME monitors the O2 sensors voltage to conclude if the SAI pump (and all the related valves) are operating correctly.
Yes; all original wiring, DME, etc.
All I'm looking for now is which pin on the engine electrical connector feeds the SAI. I can then wire the 996 SAI connector to the plug and have the 996 DME trigger the SAI. That's the only thing I need to get my smog renewed. I'm on a 30 day temporary permit right now.
Other than that, everything else seems to be working mostly fine. I haven't put too many miles on it yet so time will tell...
I do have an odd generator warning light that shows up but not every time so I'm not sure why that is. That won't hold up my smog so I'm not super worried about it at the moment.
I'm a bit confused by your description because the stock 996 SAI pump power connector has 2 pins. One pin is connected to ground, the other pin supplies +12v and it's directly connected to the 996 SAI relay (rear relay panel).
None of those go through the engine electrical connectors (x59/1 and x59/2).
From memory, the 997 pump connector also has 2 pins. The +12v is connected to the engine jump terminal in the engine bay. The ground is going through one of the x59 engine round connectors, switched by the SAI relay.
The two circuits as you can see are quite incompatible and some re-wiring will be needed.
Yes, I'm confused also, If you are using the 996 engine harness, then your 997 SAI pump is not hooked to any wires. The wires you want to hook to the SAI pump are at the left rear of the engine bay harness. Can you not just extend the wires from the left rear engine bay harness to the SAI pump? No need to go through the x59/1 or x59/2 connectors.......
Yes to all of the above; If the motor was still laying on the garage floor, I could have traced back the 997 SAI wiring and then extended my 996 wiring to match... Unfortunately I I hadn't thought about it then. Now that the motor is in the car, I can't get to the 997 SAI connector because there's a whole forest of stuff in the way...
In the 997, the engine jump terminal was under the car, forward of the rear wheels along the passenger side ( I would imagine that redesign from the 996 was because it's a pain to jump the car at the fuse panel to get the rear lid open. Having it under the car means it's a lot easier to get to...)
I was able to run that lead back up under the intake and route it to the 996 jump location top right of the engine bay. This should mean that I already have 12v+ at the SAI ?
So from your description above, it would seem that I need to find the pin that sends the ground to the SAI? Any ideas on that then?
Sounds like you're using the 997 engine
wire harness
because only the 997 harness has a connector that is connected to the 997 SAI pump. Hence my confusion.
In case you're using the 997 engine wire harness, the SAI ground is connected to pin 20 of the
997 x59/2 connector
. However, remember the 996 SAI plug supplies the switched (and fused) +12v to the 996 SAI pump. You will need to rig up a circuit (with a relay) to supply a
FUSED
ground to the 997 SAI pump.
There we go, now we're getting places... Yes, 997 engine stock wiring harness into the 996 stock car harness.
Since the 996 SAI connector already supplies the fused ground to the 996 SAI, wouldn't I only have to extend that one wire over to the 997 x59/2 and tie it to pin 20? Shouldn't that work?
btw, if you have a link to how the x59 connectors are numbered, wired and/or colors, I would much appreciate it. I do have the 996 ones but I am having a heckuva time finding the 997 ones...
No, the 996 SAI connector supplies fused +12v, not ground to the 996 SAI pump. The 996 SAI pump ground is permanently attached to the ground.
The pin numbers are all printed next to the pin. You will see them when you look into the pins.
So the 996 car harness match the 997 engine connectors side pin-by-pin? That's pretty amazing.
hhmmm... so, if I were to remove the 12v+ from the 87 relay (easier to get to I think) and replace it with a ground, that should do the trick, right? I'll ohm out the wire to make sure it's not connected to anything else first of course...
Yes, seems like everything else works fine - AC turns on, all the gauges are good... I am now wondering though if my generator warning and the brake wear light are related to something different between the two plugs.
Thanks for the link, that's awesome! I'll be reading for days...
That should work but you will need to add a 40A fuse inline somewhere. The 996 SAI pump fuse (called MAXI fuse in the wiring diagrams) is connected to an always hot +12v, You will need to disconnect that from the relay.
With all the wiring diagrams you have now, you could easily trace all the pins of the x59 connectors between 996 and 997.
Good on the fuse; I can do an inline one in the engine bay right at the 996 SAI connector and then extend that over to the back of the x59/2 plug.
As for the rest, I'll be looking closely at those diagrams on the biggest monitor I can find... There's a
lot
of wiring in these cars...
I'll keep y'all posted when I get it done; most likely not until Saturday...
Thanks all the help!
Thanks; unless of course it doesn't work... As long as I don't fry something along the way, I'll be happy...
And I did find that CA CARB now is ok with the LS3 swap so... hhmmm, I'm thinking I wish I'd found out about that awhile back...
FWIW, Hoovie spent $17k on a LS1 swap for his 99 C2 so it's not as cheap as people would have you believe. Plus the idea of cutting metal to shoehorn that in means that you can't ever revert.
If you have $15k laying about, you can get a reliable 3.6l engine. $20k and you can have a more powerful reliable powerplant.
@808Bill
@jyoteen
I'm one of the do-it-yourself team - although my back doesn't much like it anymore - my donor 997 cost $12k and I'm hoping to sell what's left to recoup some of the costs... There'll be a list once I get mine smogged...
Correct me if I am mistaken, but the 997 SAI gets its 12v from the starter lug sandwiched with the starter-alternator harness (where they were notorious for melting).
If you had to do any monkey business to that harness (as mentioned the 997 does not have a jumper lug) perhaps that needs double checking. But the good news is you don�t need a fused feed to the pump. That�s whey the 997�s have a fused ground instead.
So your SAI relay �power input de-pinned and a new ground lead added instead� method of changing the control could work great! I would confirm the 996 harness has no pin matching the 997 harnesses SAI switched ground pin. Then add a new 1 wire harness around the engine bay to the 996 SAI connector 12v feed (now modified ground). I would put a fuse in this harness, in the engine bay. This way the rest of your control circuit downstream is protected.
finally, it�s not THAT hard to get in there. Remove the airbox and the alternator. That will give you enough room to get a flashlight and mirror in there to verify the 997 stuff is intact. Removing the throttlebody and distribution pipe give you more room.
@Dan951Man
Yes, thinking about it overnight, I think that's how I'm going to move forward.
As far as access to the pump, yes it probably wouldn't hurt but after wrenching on this for the last few months, I'm more a fan of smart work rather than hard work...
Oh and the 997 DOES have a jumper "lug"; it's under the car along the passenger side of the transmission ahead of the wheels... At least, that's where it was on this '07 donor...
Just have some time to dive into this and I have to say, Fabulous info in there for the 997.Found my SAI connection, am working on a plan of action for Saturday...
Would you happen to have similar for the 996?
In all of the various manuals/info I've collected for the 996, there's nothing as comprehensive as that 997 set.
No worries if not, and thanks for all of the help so far.
@Ahsai
ok, need to pick your brains on this again please...still can't get the SAI fault cleared...
Using the 996 SAI connector I wired on a relay that switches on a 40A fused ground onto the 12v+ from pin 20 on the engine block connector. All perfect in theory...
I can fire the 997 SAI by grounding it and it is working fine.
Problem is my 996 is not turning on the 996 SAI connector and I cannot figure out why. I have a meter plugged into it and nothing at all...
Is there some other trigger or valve that tells it to turn on the 996 SAI when the engine is cold?
Worst case, I'm going to wire in a switch instead of the relay...
If memory serves, the DME supplies ground to the 996 SAI relay coil to activate it. The DME does that at cold start and whenever the SAI test is needed by the DME (usually when the engine is still not fully warmed up and you idle the engine after a short drive).
Not sure why you want to wire a switch instead. You want to control the SAI pump manually? But why?
2nd answer first... It won't throw a CEL and I can get smogged... that's my biggest priority right now...
I'm understanding the first part of your answer but what tells the DME that it's a cold engine? I'm plowing through everything I have but the programming side of it is a black box.
The 996 when it was original never had any SAI issues so I know it has to be connected to something I've done with the engine swap or something has changed because of the engine swap.
I wonder if the DME is reading the thermostat on the block and determines that the block is below a certain temp and so it will turn on the SAI...
I don't have a duramatic(?) so i can't do a whole lot in that regard. I'm using an iCarsoft to see what's happening. Doesn't give me enough info tho.
Got any recommendations for a good indy P shop in the SF Bay Area?
Yes the DME reads the coolant temp sensor so it knows when is a cold start. I don't think you can fool the DME easily because other than cold start, as I mentioned there are other conditions the DME will activate the SAI test and you won't be able to know when. The DME reads the O2 sensor to confirm the extra fresh air introduced by the SAI pump.
I think the right fix is to find out why the 996 SAI relay is not activated during cold start and go from there.
yes, worked on that today; no idea so far tho.
Agreed on the random times it's supposed to go off. It ran great over a 75 mile run of mixed driving but as soon as I pulled back on the road after gassing up, it threw up a CEL...
Do you have the 996 engine block pin outs? It's the one thing I don't have and can't find.
I think there must be something on the engine connectors that's changed. I'm planning to print out the 997 wiring diagrams and see if I can figure out the differences.
Thanks again for the help, it's good sometimes to be able to talk something through...
The 996 engine harness pinout of the x59 connectors is in the 996 wiring diagrams. You got that from the 997 link I sent above, right?
If memory serves, the 996 SAI pump wiring does not go through the x59 at all. The 996 SAI pump socket connects to the SAI relay at the rear relay panel directly.
yes on your memory. The key now tho is to see what triggers the DME to turn on that SAI relay
There wasn't any 996 info on that torrent link, all 997 stuff, a great collection.
