Gen1 996 - What am I in for?

The prices on the Gen1 996 (3.4L) are approaching reasonable affordability for me. I'm aware of the ims bearing upgrade. Other than the usual ppi, how the car was driven, how well was the car maintained, etc. what other known issues are unique to the 996?

I don't prescribe to the thought that there is actually that much "unique" to the MK1 996. Some will say the double row IMSB is better in the 99's and cable throttle is a nice one. You'll hear horror stories about "D chunks". Be more concerned about normal wear an tear items that you will find on any 15 year old car. I have done the following in the last 2 years or so: motor mounts, alternator, window regulator, horn bushings. Every one of these are DIY jobs. There is the AOS though, PITA for some.

Most engines that were ever going to D chunk already have.. Just stay away from ultra low mileage cars. If it were me I'd be looking for the earliest '99 that I could find with 50-65K on it. The 2000 is my least favorite of all 996s.

At 118k miles, water pump particles caused overheat and blown head in my 99C2 tip. I was pissed and even after 15 plus years of PCar ownership, I walked away from Porsches. Bought a brand new Mustang GT. After 130k 100% trouble free !! nothing broke on it ever...ever...hard fun long distance commute miles. I'm back in a C4S and happy ! IMHO the cars depreciate, the parts and service costs do not. Save a bigger maintenance kitty.. do regular extra careful maintenance, fix every little thing fast. On these cars issues cascade and clink clang clunk goes to boom very fast.

Yep. I have 11 more cases of that under my roof right now. ALL but one could have been avoided by proactive water pump replacement. Just do it.

You mention "reasonable affordability." Make sure you aren't just factoring in the price of the car, everything is more expensive on my Pcar than it is on any of the other high end cars I've driven. I can turn a wrench when needed, and that has saved a good deal, but these cars are old, and even if it was well maintained, things will break. I've got a window regulator that is out on mine that needs replacing, and that's $3-400...stupid, but it is what it is. I had a water pump go out, the pump itself was $250 or so, and I put it in myself...if I paid my Indy to do it that would have been about $800 all in...your water pump will go, window regulators go, the oil needs to be changed every 5k, and if you are doing it yourself it's about $90, (9+ quarts of oil and an oil filter, etc.)..or about $150-$175 if you pay an Indy or catch a sale at the dealer...etc. These aren't Hondas...just because they are entering your affordability window, make sure you are also factoring in the maintenance aspect. Also, tires are expensive...these are great cars, but make sure you aren't biting off more than you can chew. If you aren't, do as Jake says, buy the earliest MK1 you can find and enjoy it. Good luck, DS

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Jake, What don't you like about the MK1 2000?

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Funny, I just ordered a new pump and thermostat 3 days ago. Just wanted to change it as preventative maintenance. So to hear a pro mention it makes me feel good about spending the $$$$

That last posting has just made my day. I have a 99 C2 with 66000 miles on the clock. PM I have done so far all DIY. Belt, air filters, oil, coolant flush, reversing light switch, rear brakes and rotors, plus fluid changed. Engine mounts, Plugs and sleeves. All done in the last 2 years since owning the car. I had no maintenances records with the car so I had to go through everything myself as PM DIY and found them all pretty well easy enough to accomplish. I am 72 years foo age. If I can do it, so can you. Save yourself a bomb and gets you well acquainted with your 996.

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Over and over and over again....

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Isn't their significant warning that the engine is overheating well before it gets to the point of a cracked head ? Like the temp gauge ? Or does the temp increase so quickly that there is not time to react ? Thanks

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Absolutely not.. Generally there is zero warning because the entire engine doesn't "get hot". The blockage creates a localized hot spot that forms a crack that will then propagate across coolant and oil passages within the head. When this happens intermix occurs and the collateral damage begins. Maybe once a year I have someone begin their failure consultation with "the engine overheated". This article explains the typical occurrence well. http://www.flat6innovations.com/index.php/services/intermixed-oil-and-coolant-repairs

Thanks for the info Jake !

So what I am reading here is that an early '99 Cabriolet with mid mileage should be my next car. . .. Got it.

Jake, Was there a design change in the 2000 head versus the 99??

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Not a design change, because the design stayed the same. The castings are weaker and have different characteristics. I have only seen ONE 99 crack a head, and I have another one here now that might have a cracked head, so that might make two. We have repaired dozens of 2000 cracked heads and the issue continues into the early 01 cars. Last week we diagnosed two more intermix cars, both with cracked heads and one can be saved, the other was "driven to death" by an owner that refused to listen to the engine when it was screaming at him with mechanical noises..

Reading this thread might lead one to believe that you're f'd if you have a 2000. Loving my 2000 with 70k that I've driven the **** out of on the track. It runs like a champ.

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Just trying to share my direct experience. Someone asked why I didn't care for the MY2000 cars and I answered directly without bull**** or candy coating. Keep the damn water pump healthy if you own a 2000! Change the coolant annually and keep those Ph levels in check. Not all of them will have issues, just like not all IMS Bearings will fail. The fact is these issues are symptomless and thats why one needs to be proactive.

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How soon should it be done? i.e. what mileage, years since last one? Any early signs of potential issue?

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If it hasn't been done, do it tomorrow. If you don't know if it has been done, assume that it hasn't and do it this week. No early signs, the only "symptom" that you'll see is actually a result of collateral damage. Read that article I linked earlier. I literally take the words right out of caller's mouths when they ring us to go over the symptoms that they are experiencing. Thats how much we see this in the MY2000 and early 01 cars. At the present the amount of intermix cars that we have onsite is 3X greater than the number of IMSB failures that we have onsite. After receiving 4 more 996s last week we now have 996s onsite from 27 states.

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That's why I chimed in--your experience seems to be only with broken motors. Thus, it's limited and one-sided, which is what I want to counter. (If you also see healthy motors, then you are willfully presenting a distorted picture.) Moreover, as you know, the broken motors you see were broken for a wide-range of reasons, including poor maintenance. It just happens to serve your business interests to drive up everyone's anxiety about these cars. Thanks for sharing.

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Great info ! Thanks for putting it out there. If I had this info previously, instead of all the IMS strident noise ... I would not have had a sudden blown intermix motor. A fastidiously maintained car.. Suddenly dead.

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ALL I see are broken engines. We do a fair share or preventive work for those who want to take advantage of the things we have developed and have them installed by their developers. I say all the time that I am biased, because all we see is the worst of the worst, usually after another shop has given up on the engine because they got in over their head. There's no use for us to have cars at the shop from 27 states, its only because shops have refused to learn about these engines. Even though I have instructed my classes to over 400 technicians across the US and Canada this year alone, that barely helps because most of them also won't tackle the bigger jobs. Now, if I were here for business interests I'd not say a damn thing about water pumps and just let the cars roll in with even bigger numbers. There is no gain for me with stating the things that I have in this thread, because we do not sell water pumps! In fact, we don't sell any components directly, (other than installing them every now and then) including those that we have developed. Everyone has to hate the vendor and has to hate the guy that may appear to have something to gain from offering his first hand views. I hate dealing with it, and in fact I declined an invitation from PCA today to be a Technical presenter at the 2014 Porsche Parade, because of the comments that people make and how fed up I get with it. Its bad enough here, but in person my temper is a little too hot to listen to it without exploding. Tact only goes so far. Discipline only goes so far. Most of the engines we see have never been neglected or abused and most end up here with less than 70K miles and without any symptoms previously. The owner says "I have all the maintenance records, I have done everything right, so why did this happen to me?". I need to start getting more testimonials from these folks because all their stories are the same and no one will believe it otherwise... Hell, why even get the testimonial, everyone will just think that we made the people and their stories up anyway. Thats what people do today.

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What caused your troubles -- a faulty water pump or something else?

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People need to hear from more folks like yourself. All too often the people that have these types of issues stay quiet and don't share what happened, or how it was remedied. Because of that it all looks like vaporware.

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Sadly yes, a internal debris hot spot caused by water pump. It was my DD. A week or 2 before had normal service, tip serviced and AOS replaced by a very good Orlando PCar specialist. Sweet fast strong no problem or pre symptoms. Normal highway speed driving home, Sudden engine light, loss of power...then when I opened the coolant cap, intermix. I kept it for a year looking for a motor, or cost effective fix. Finally gave up and sold it to Vertex in Miami at a very ugly price. Seriously almost took it to a gun range and opened fire on it. Really put me off of Porsche for many years. Guess what I replaced the first week I bought the C4S ?

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Sounds like the exact scenario thats in my article. This is how they happen over and over again. Was the car a 2000?

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Nobody would listen to me. Im very glad guys like you speak up. You add to the body of knowledge. Not just internet BS. Keep talking please. This forum is diff than 5 years ago, now I see a lot more real info cut filters open, proactive maintenance etc is the norm. Thank you.

Too many "parrots" here online that hear something in one place, regurgitate it and convey it as gospel, like they did it themselves. These engines have been our educators, they won't lie to you and they speak very clearly. You just have to learn how to listen.

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99 C2 a Tip

Do you know when it was built by chance? If I had to guess it was so late that it could have been a 2000.

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Thanks -- glad I had my water pump replaced upon purchasing the car. Did your pump blow, or was it simply no longer pumping sufficiently?

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Generally the pump doesn't have to fail completely.. It loses an impeller blade, that gets circulated through the system until it blocks a critical capillary that leads to the localized hot spot and the failure. This is how it is so well masked. See the August 2012 issue of Excellence for a feature on this. I provided most of the data and info for the article.

This is one of the best threads Jake has been involved in where he has provided concrete info as opposed to his usual mantra (compliment in there somewhere). Jake clearly sees a lot of failures in these cars and has noted a problem in the 2000-2001 models. I believe him. And they are not IMS related (refreshing). And... Jake provided his advice. Change your water pump.. Since Jake does not sell a "Water Pump Solution", if I owned one if these model years, I would do it tomorrow as noted. You can certainly have an issue with his point if view (as I have in the past), but I repeat, this may be Jake's most selfless advice to date. My 2 cents.

Stunned.

Could be the wine.

Do we know if the 2003 3.6L model has the same water pump issue or has the pump design changed? Cheers.

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After 2002 the head cracks are not as bad, since the 3 chain engines have a different head casting. The capillaries are larger and less constrictive. We still see water pump failures in 02+ cars, but not the large amount of cracked heads. But the 3 chain heads lose intake valve seats and break timing chains. They also have single row IMSB assemblies and are the most prone to failure. The different years have different inherent issues that strike them.

The fact is, "no one has to listen to Jake"... Dont!! I have never heard him say, "buy from me".. He is identifying engine problems that he has encountered over his career. Listen to his advice or do not... Its advice based on experience. I cannot understand why individuals continue to "counter" Jake's "free advice" with their own... Please, except what he offers or dont, but stop trying to counter what he has experienced from real world scenarios... Thanks Jake!!

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+1,000,000

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Thanks Jake.

I'm new to this guys, both Porsche cars and this forum, so please bare with me... but it sure sounds like these cars have a lot of problems? IMS, RMS, AOS, cracked heads, broken water pump fins, broken timing chains... and the list goes on it seems. I love my car (so far), this is a great site, and the Porsche folks seem fantastic, but I almost fear driving the car. Besides the looks and driving characteristics, I committed to a Porsche because of my impressions of their high build quality. Was I wrong?

I researched a LOT before I bought my first 911 6 months ago and due in large part to these forums and in particular Jake's patient and knowledgable postings went for a '99 car. As he posted recently, the 99's are the best kept secret. Cheers to you Jake.

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Just remember, (1) we are talking about vehicles that are 10, 11, 15 years old, (2) how much abuse was put on the vehicle through its life cycle, (3) how much real maintenance was really performed, and finally, its a car. All cars break... If you purchase an older vehicle then be prepared to perform maintenance, repairs, etc.. Or purchase a new model under warranty... if you purchase any "older" vehicle then you should be somewhat competent in (1) either mechanical fixes yourself or (2) how the funds to have it mechanically maintained and repaired when required... Dinicod---You were not wrong.. Porsche is a great car.

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my 2 cents: its the nature of the net. many post on forums because something broke and are asking for help. Very rarely do you see a thread/post that proclaims: happy owner here, no problems

...coolant expansion tanks. This is a difficult DIY job, especially if you've never done one. Otherwise, its about a two hour job at a p-car dealer. If/when you replace the water pump, also replace the tank if its original. relinuca

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Relax. All cars have issues. Maintain and enjoy.

Agreed, pmkazz and kromdom, forums can focus on the negative and of course all things mechanical are subject to failure - no doubt. Although subject to failure and prone to failure are two different things! Having said that, what a car! Don't mind the dust as I pass you!!

Wanted to join in on this as I have just got my 2000 996 back from RED (Rabey Engine Development), last week. My case is a bit different, as my 2000 had a new Porsche crate motor installed in 2007, before I purchased it in 2011. Just after purchase, my waterpump began to leak from the seal, I had just bought the car and really wanted to drive it, but thanks to this forum, and postings like this, I parked it until I could change it. Fast forward to present, a job change had the car parked for a long period of time, when I cranked it up again I had the "beans in a coffee-can" tensioner buildup noise, I drove it a bit, less than 100 miles over the next couple of days, but kept "hearing' things, odd, to my ear, mechanical sounds. And, the clutch had always slipped first thing on a cold morning, or as cold as morning gets here in South Carolina. So, being as how we are within shouting distance of Cleveland, GA, I emailed RED with the above scenario. I had several e-mails back & forth with Jake, not one of his employees, with Jake. We than had at least one, if not two, phone conversations prior to my shipping the car to RED so we were all on the same page. There were many e-mails and several calls during the time RED had the car. The car is back, clutch works nothing like it used to be, this must be what it's supposed to feel like I say to myself. And the motor sounds great as well. On my last call with Jake, prior to returning the car to me, Jake outlined a laundry list of items I would want to address in the near future, he knew from our conversations that I can spin a wrench, and also am one of those guys who owns a Porsche through sacrifice of other things in life, and need to save where I can. My car was a DD for a 75 year old man who used it mainly to go to the Grocery store, it has the door dings to prove it, it's not a beater, but the guy receiving @ RED called me as soon as the car arrived, kinda freaked out by it's condition. Could I have gone to my Indy for this service? Sure, but, having had my car through RED brings a peace of mind I need. I could never afford to replace the motor in this car, or take the hit of scrapping it. If I'm going to own this thing, I have to be able to enjoy it. When I used to run a Formula Ford, I had all my motors built by Rollin Butler, Cricket Farm Motors, in Greenville, SC. Lots of time spent around 2 & 4 wheeled race & high performance equipment has taught me, suspension, brakes, other stuff, sure, I got that covered. Motor work, that lump in the back? That is for someone else, who knows what they are looking at from years of experience. Yes, Jake talks about all the bad things he sees. Not many people are running up to Cleveland, GA to show him a Porsche with no issues. The one time I did let someone else touch my FF motor, it broke 5 laps into the first session and cost me a crank, a cam and nearly a block. For me, money well spent with Jake, and a good man to boot.