Question: What does the 996 do just before breaking loose?

I am 6 days into my first ownership experience with a 911 of any variety...I have been starting to get comfortable with her around corners but I am curious about her manners just before she gets loose? Does the rear spin out? Will it be a gradual slide then a spin? In other words, what should I be looking for or feeling as a signal that I am about to lose it I'd love to get her to a track and find out for sure! Thanks. Randy

kirby knows...

Well, you can get the tail to slide at even 30 mph, given an abrupt lift. These cars aren't like the ye old 911S where the tail just comes around. True, if you lift, and the conditions are right, it will start to come around (with PSM off) without much of force. Thing is, with any car, you want to be smooth as possible for each of the inputs, and each of the control systems (brake, steering, and throttle) are tied into each other which contribute to the ability to control the car. If you do abrupt manuvers on the brakes, gas or the steering, the car will get unsettled. But you can usually feel the edge that the car is at the point of slide. It's fun, and after a while, it becomes instinct to know where the boundry is and to keep it just under on the track, and a lot under on the street. Take it to the track to explore those limits.

I have a C4, and I am LOVING the AWD/PSM combo. Able to do great things, knowing the car will compensate for slip only on certain wheels. Also allows me to lift off the brake as I feel the PSM engage and stomp on the gas, and fly out of the corners. Sorry I cannot answer the question completely. the only time the back has come around, the car corrected itself before I could react.

There is no one thing a 996 does before it gets loose. Assuming you have stock suspension and street tires and you just drive around in circles at increasing speed (skid pad) you will likely feel the front start to push first. A little understeer is built into the car because its easy to correct by just lifting slightly. That's also the natural reaction of most. For those that think this sucks, many racers set their cars up with a bit of understeer. If you have your foot to the floor coming out of a turn and your backend steps out in a 911 you don't have many options except to hold it to the floor and hope to steer out of it. If you are going around a corner at a reasonably low rate of speed and stomp on the gas hoping to kick the rear end out and impress you friends you are probably going to be disappointed. Unless you are on gravel or wet pavement the car will push like crazy. This is simple physics. Weight shifts back, front lifts and looses traction. This, or course, is worse in a rear engine car. If you are decelerating (weight forward) into a corner your backend will probably break loose first. You'll know it when it happens. Don't lift. If you can, add a little throttle. It should take care of itself. As mentioned above, when exiting a corner under acceleration expect a little push. I guess I could go on but I'm sure you're as bored reading as I am of typing. The important message is that your car will act different depending on the situation. The only way to explore what it does at it's limits is to get it to the track. Jim

One more thing. PSM SUCKS! A tool of the devil with no place in a Porsche! IMHO.

As already stated, but I'll state again for emphasis, take it to the track. It's the only place to explore the limits of youself (and the car). JimB, my first time at the track coming from an M3 left me impressed with the sophistication of PSM. For its stated purpose, it is *very* effective. Not a particularly good thing for learning actual car control, though, as it's a crutch that people lean on too hard as a substitute for competent driving. Perhaps thats your point?

Jeff, I was just kidding, sort of. I personally think sports cars should be a little bit raw and a little bit dangerous. I think handling a high end sports car should be a little like handling a rattler. It should be something you learn to do over time and treat with a great deal of respect. The 930 comes to mind. Having said that, the technology is incredible and I realize that my idea of the perfect sports car is not shared by everyone. The cool thing about 996 platform is that you can build it into just about anything you want from a race car to a pimped out boulevard cruiser and everything in between. Jim

Find a wet parking lot, a bit safer, will break at a lower speed provided you turn the PSM off.

Jim, gotchya. That's why I'm still on the Elise wait list, and lust after GT3s. You see the 997 pics of the GT3? Badass.

To JimB: I have never been to the track but would love to one day. But your post was very interesting (definitely not boring). One question, if one is decelerating into a corner, you mention that the rear end will probably break loose unless you don't lift on gas and if you do break loose one should add some throttle to get the weight back on the rear, in order to prevent this in the first place should one assume that one should try to brake before entering the curve and then adding some progressive throttle as you start the curve? I am guessing that lifting throttle somewhere in the curve is what gets you in trouble, so therefore one should not try to destabilize during such transitions. Or put another way how can you not lift on throttle as you enter a curve without plowing or pushing and "hitting the wall with the front end"? signed: a rookie

You should do your hard braking before you enter the curve. Car can only handle 100% of something, so 100% steering and 100% of braking or throttle will not work. So do your hard braking before you get to the curve then do a smaller percentage of throttle depending on how much steering you are required on the given curve.

Eternal, I really can't agree with your post. That's what we teach drivers on their first day but it really has more to do with a new drivers mental capacity than tire capacity. It is perfectly valid to be using 30% of your adhesion for braking while using the other 70% for turning. It's also very valid to increase your adhesion by shifting your weight using braking or accelerating. Chago, I started writing a long post on this and then realized that I really could not do the topic justice. I would suggest that you pick up a copy of Going Faster by Skip Barber. It's a great book for learning the basics of weight management (your car's, not yours) and car control. Once you've mastered what's in the book you can dig into the endless discussion on the Racing forum. There are some great posts by some really good drivers (and some not so good drivers) dealing with the topic. Good luck, Jim

One more thing. PSM SUCKS! A tool of the devil with no place in a Porsche! IMHO. easy now jim :-) PSM is nice to have, but 996 WILL spin around even with it engaged. don't trust it blindly.

Hey Moot, I admitted that it is incredible technology. Every Lexus should have it! Jim

JimB As you mentioned in your post it is what you teach on the first day, this is how the post was intended... The person was a beginner and that's how the post was written. I also don't remember posting that 30% braking and 70% turning was not ok? Maybe I took your post the wrong way.

Not really, I was too busy talking to James.

Eternal, I reread my post and realized that I sounded like an arrogant ***. Sorry about that. Jim

kirby... ah, that famous pix. you must gone into T8 too fast, either chicken'd out or ran out of track, lifted, tail wiggled, lifted more, wiggled more, then you stomped on brake locked up and off you went! you should come out with me this weekend. put the supercharger to good use.

Sounds about right except I didn't go off track, kept it right in the middle.

Yup, second that for 'Going Faster'. It's the bible of performance driving.

Well...I see that I have inspired some passion here Really, all I was looking for was some sort of idea how close I was to see my *** handed to me when going hard into a turn. Coming from an S2000 which tends to have the rear "snap out I just thought it would be nice to know what the "characteristics" of the 911 (stock) are when pushed to the limits. Of course I know that I should go to a track, parking lot, etc. to truly find out but I was just looking for a little insight between now and when I am able to get to a track. I have had some track experience...although not in my (new to me) 911 so that's the reason for the post. Thanks!

I too came from the S2000. Then to an M3, then to a 996. The 996 will tell you way ahead of time what's going on out back. The S2000 by comparison I found to be an evil handling car, eroding driver confidence and difficult to drive above 8/10s, especially sensitive to any trail braking.

S2000 - a friend of mine was teaching a student in one at a DE. His famous phrase that sticks in my mind was, 'sneeze on the front straightaway & you move two carwidths to one side or the other'.