996 - a step child?

hi all, i know our 996 cars get a lot of bashing due to the ims issue, but i'm just curious why people focus on this when almost EVERY porsche seems to have inherent flaws that are even more expensive to repair than the $2k for ims/rms upgrade? just on top of my head, i know my 1989 cab was a FUN, but the AC was known to fail and it had old freon, so if need AC, many spend $3k to convert system to modern unit. as for prior years, while there are glory tales about 1979 to 1989 carreras that go 300k miles, the more common descriptions that i've seen on cars for sale are porsches new top-end and/or rebuilds around 100k - isn't that at least $10k+? also, the 915 transmission is terrible and haven't many people spent good $ having to rebuild? as for newer 911's, the 964 are notorious for oil leaks(regardless of how often it's fixed), and the 96 to 98 year 993s are also known for constant o2 sensor/ck engine light issues that are $1-2k to fix each time? bottom line, i think similar to the 964s being out of favor before, i think eventually the well-maintained 996s value will rebound and(not depreciate much) and their owners will be pleased. PL

964 is also in the same boat, why just because of covered bumpers? 996 because it shared the same head lights as the Boxster, water cooled and new engine designed to save Porsche money and are not race worthy.

I think the shared headlight asthetic thing causes the 996 stepchild syndrome even more than self destructing engines!

IMS is by no means a final fix to the M96 weaknesses. Scored/slipped/cracked cylinders, cracked heads, AOS replacement, disintegrating timing chain pads, block leaks, etc. A Jack Raby $18K engine is really best fix available. Or get a GT3/Turbo or 997.2.

I think it is a simple supply issue. Porsche made a lot more 996's than previous models which leads to lower prices. The price drops you see for the 996's will happen to the 997's, and then the 991's. As far as the headlight/IMS/engine issues, I think those are real issues. But, on these forums they are blown way out of proportion. I have met a few other 996 owners since getting mine and they just drive their cars oblivious to all of the issues because they don't spend time here.

Laughing and smiling all the way to the bank.

I think it just feels like they're the red-headed stepchild because you own one, so you're immersed in conversations/research/forums/etc. about the 996.

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IMS I think is blown waaaaaaaay out of proportion. I think the 996 gets flak for the headlights mainly. IMS/RMS/other issues - only the interested are aware, whereas anyone can comment on the headlights being the same as a Boxster's.

None of the people who have asked me about the car - at gas stations, restaurants, at stoplights - have asked, "Eew, is that the 996 with the intermediate shaft bearing issue? I sure wouldn't want one of THOSE." Similarly, nobody has noticed that it has radiators and shouted, "My God, man, coolant! Heresy!" Best compliment to date was a VERY burly black dude who eyeballed my 911 and said, "Thanks for driving a MAN'S Porsche." The air-cooled guys are going to hate on everything that isn't. Newer-gen water cooled guys are going to hate on the 996 because newer is better in their minds, and DEAR GOD, the headlights aren't elliptical. I don't think Porsche itself minds the 996, since it's the vehicle that brought them out of the stone age (oil-cooled) and, along with its 986 cousin, revived Porsche's profitability. 996 drivers are driving the 911 that changed everything for Porsche. I'm cool with that, even if some dweebs on the Interwebs aren't.

My favorite Porsche is the 996.2 GT3. I have a few other P cars including 997 turbo S, 3.8 RS, 997.2 Carrera S. I think it looks futuristic especially in GT3 bodywork. I love the narrow body and relative lack of curves compared to 993, 997, 991. The driving experience is as analog as I want it. I spent some time washing it yesterday and got reacquanted with the shape. The 964 is getting more attention lately. Just wait and see, the 996 GT3 will be at the top of the list in the next 10 yrs or so. I like the 996 turbo as well, and especially the shape of the 996 C4S.

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996 was the first departure from small sports coupe towards the Carrera's eventual and now solidified status as grand touring car with the 997/991. The 911's heritage is not one of a grand touring car, so people buying it for that reason don't really understand it's not that Steve McQueen small type racer anymore. If anything the Cayman's proportions are much closer to what made the 911 concept a legend. The big mistake with the 996 ws not making it visually indistinguishable on the outside from the 993. So that you could not tell from the outside if it was a 993 or 996 and had to pop the lid to see if it was water-cooled. The appeal of the 993, and hence the knock against the 996 would have been minimal. You would have had the high fenders and round lights of the air-cooled that give so many a boner, while having the speed and ease of maintenance of the 996. The perfect combination built in numbers so abundant that there would be no need to pay up for the 993 unless you were a die-hard for the old leaky engines. And I suspect most, certainly not all, are really after just the 993 looks and not the engine. It is kind of amusing how folks pony up a huge premium to buy a Porsche thinking they are getting a race-oriented engine, when in reality they're getting the street version. Cha ching. Granted Chevy does this as well with the Corvette but I guess their buyer's aren't willing to pay another $30K for a plush seat and leather-wrapped cup holder.

Plus, 996 = faster than 993

there is nothing less inspiring than the lines of a 996 C2...

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Less inspiring, more aero, modern, simple, smooth. The 993 is a classic, but extremely dated by today's standards. Some love that, some want newer.

This is an internet-only problem... I have yet to have anyone come up to me whether in a public place or a Porsche event and tell me, "Your car is (insert negative comment here)" Non-car enthusiasts still stare and compliment on a continual basis. Almost everyone believes it is a new car and I've not heard one complaint about its headlights or lack of huge hips. Car enthusiasts still see it as a machine that demands respect. Whether it increases in value over time or continues to depreciate is irrelevant to me. I bought it at a discount and have had more fun than what my purchase price was so I'm not concerned about it.

I want them all.. I do think the 996 will end up as a good car to own in the future.. modern, yet not overly large compared to the newer 911's.. not so many electronics.. mine does not even have PSM!

Do I personally prefer the looks of the 964/993 to the 996? Sure. But, the 996 was the fastest, most powerful, best handling 911 to date (and despite its shortcomings, arguably one of the most reliable overall as well). If the 996 were the first 911, no one would care about the headlights.

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I like the 964 as well. The 993 is like mushy handling Hollywood version of the 911. I sat in a 964 RS this weekend and its the perfect modern Carrera in traditional dimensions. With lean,no nonsense interior like a 911 should be. OTOH the 996 is a good in between balance of modern and old school 911. The interior is not Audi'esque like the 997/991 and the front end looks nothing like a VW Beetle. The 996.2's exterior is entirely its own. No other car from VW bears any similarity. The 996.2 C4S is probably the most modern and fluid looking Carrera so far. It would have been nice to see a 964 RS styled with a modern set of headlights (like the 981 Cayman) but keeping the high fenders up front and wide rear and minus the silly looking SUV sized wheels.

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I'm not disagreeing - but it depends entirely on what inspires you. Furthermore aesthetics are the most superficial part of the performance car experience. For many people the lines on a 1960 Cadillac Coupe de Ville or a first generation Camaro, or even a 1932 Ford coupe are more inspiring than any European car on the road. Do I like the looks of these cars - sure I do. Would I own one? Probably not. Do I enjoy the performance experience when I drive them - not really no. Case in point: My good friend is holding on to his 3.2 Carrera because it was his first Porsche and because he can afford to keep multiple wheeled machines in his stable. I took it out not so long ago to refamiliarize myself with the air cooled experience (I cut my teeth on air cooled 911s as well). The experience was entirely underwhelming and convinced me that I can't go back. If all you are concerned about is the image - fill your boots, pay a premium. I won't judge you. In fact - you driving an air cooled Porsche allows me to admire the lines which are admittedly better than the 996 by a fair margin. If you're after a better driving experience though...then the later models are simply better cars. We all have our priorities. You like to look good, I like to feel good. I won't judge you if you don't judge me.

Now you guys know what the 928 owners went through all the years. It was also better in EVERY way than the 911 but the die hard bunch never accepted it and it never bacame what it was planned to be (factort V8 TT). The few of us that has them know how great they are, same as the current 996 owners. The 996 is better in every way than the 993.

I take numerous issues with the 996. My biggest is the interior. The quality of the materials are deplorable. The slush finish, the cheesy plastic, the snap together assembly, etc. I'd expect better from most Hyundais. Then comes the distinct similarity with the boxster. Now the boxster is a fine vehicle, but to have the entire front clip be almost interchangeable certain limits the appeal of the vastly more expensive 911. The almost completely lack of body curves is another limiting factor. The engine is simply a disaster. Raby has said the m96 has what, 26, failure modes? D-Chunks, variocam thingies, Imsb, chain pads, cracked heads, etc. Add to that the water pumps, AOS, etc, and you end up with a big bag of MEH. While the 996 was popular, the 997 went right back to the precedent set by the 993 and earlier (round headlights, fenders flared, boxy interior, etc). To me, this just goes to show you that porsche could release a lot of things, call them a 911, and people would still buy them.

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The 928 is the biggest piece of **** on planet earth. Those guys have multiple shortblocks sitting in their garage for when their crappy oiling system and TBF cause engine failure. Combine that with the ugliest styling to come out of stuttgart in easily a century, the proliferation of the slushbox automatic, underpowered motors, and relentless quality issues, and you have a car that should (and does) sell for less than a used pair of boxer shorts in the secondhand marketplace. Finally, the 996 is better than the 993 in performance. Assembly quality? Even stevie wonder would disagree with that.

Yeah, It's true. wherever I drive my car, woman scream in horror, parents hide their children. Dogs urinate on it. Often I am asked to park behind the dumpster. Parts fall off of it as I coast to a stop after the engine failure of that week. sucks.

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Exactly. The 996 was a stellar commercial success. So was the 997. And so is the 991. The 911 is an iconic BRAND that people will always buy - regardless of what it looks like. I mean the purists said no one would buy a fried egg headlamp 911. It became the best selling 911 then.

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The base interior in newer models really has much better looking material that's progress but if you have full leather in your 996 there is no real big visual difference other then the boxy lines in the 997. The newer models still have cheap plastic aluminum components that wear off and look horrible while the 996 plastic parts don't. The m97 is no better in the engine aspect compared to the m96. They may have fiddled with the IMS but it still has many points of failure and the IMS does still goes on them. I however do like the 997 C2 body. It is just wide enough to not look to wide and I think the widebody 996 looks just as good if not better because of the rear bumpers air slots.

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I agree. One day there will be a 964 in my stable. It is modern enough to be used as a DD and everything feels right in it while it does feel old school and raw the gearbox feels perfect and modern. It's as old school as I'd ever want to go back.

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You too, huh?

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I strongly suggest you educate yourself a little more before making arrogant statements like these. The 928 engines when compared to the 911, are very robust. Nearly bulletproof under normal use. The Trust Bearing Faliure is not an engine design issue but a drive shaft issue. The crank oiling issue only shows up on extreme racing conditions (with R compound tires). The anutomatics are a shame but the 5-speeds (like mine) are a superrior machines. Had one for almost 15 years and with the supercharger it will suprise any near stock 996TT on the street. I peraonaly love the body shape. Look back to '77 and see how modern it looked, and still does, compared to any of the other super cars. The 928 had a huge potential but it was never developed by Porsche because of owners with 911 fog on their minds.

I love them anyway, but all 911's are 'disaster' cars by any unemotional standard. Every single generation had significant issues both mechanically and with public perception in comparison to whatever beloved 911 it replaced. On air-cooled cars, the list goes on and on. Just a few examples include broken head studs, soft valves and valve guides, exploding airboxes, crappy chain tensioners, unstoppable oil leaks, dis-functional air conditioning, sloppy shifting, early failure on gearbox syncros, significant cosmetic and structural rust issues, terrible starters, failing ignition switches and ground cables, sagging door hinges, finicky fuel injection, unreliable oil level gauges, failing electric windows, etc. etc. etc. Many of these problems are quite expensive to address. Despite a small minority of folks on this forum who constantly feed the gloom and doom mentality, the 996 is a much more reliable car with lower cost of ownership than any 911 before it, all while providing higher performance levels and comfort. I wonder how these 996 G&D'ers would have coped with rust issues in long-noses, the problem set of early 911 SC's or the 993's notorious valve issues. If there was a fundamental fault of the 996, it is that it was too good. It broke the 'enthusiast car' paradigm and became a car for anybody with a medium to fat checkbook. Too easy to drive, too reasonably priced, too reliable, too comfortable, and too many made. All resulting in too many sold to non-enthusiast owners just looking for a sporty status car (as evidenced by the huge number of tiptronic cab's) As long as 996's are viewed as enthusiast cars along with all other 911's, they are fantastic. Easily the best Porsche you can get for under $30K if you aren't looking for a garage queen.

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I always get a chuckle out of statements like this when coming from 993 owners... Personally while I respect the 993 as the most modern refinement of the air-cooled cars, I find it far less visually appealing than almost every air-cooled 911 that proceeded it except the even less attractive 964. And the funkiest design element of the 993 has to be the headlights, somewhat ironic as the 996 headlights caught so much grief. Everyone has their own taste, but IMHO, 993 styling doesn't hold a candle to even the lowly SC. I also prefer MkII 996 styling to the 993, but realize isn't nearly as common of an opinion...

QC, please dont hold back. Tell us what you really think about the 996. Wow, and I thought I was hard on it! Now thats some funny stuff.

I love my small butted, bug lighted, gonna blow up any second, water cooled car. I really do.

I think the lines of the 996 are very under-appreciated. Has any of these air cooled guys seen an original 911 with its slab sides? If you take a look down the side of the 996 or even an aerial type view it has some very nice and subtle flares to the fenders. it still has some great front fender lines as well. But hey I own a 996 so I guess I am biased. I actually prefer the design to the 993, but I do like the more classic design of a 964 or Carrera 3.2 better.

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I've educated myself plenty. The 928 has timing belts, and half of the motors are interference. That alone is silly (and yes, its silly when ferrari does it). Water pump impellars score the block. Oiling. GTS oil burning. Show me a 928 owner that doesn't have a spare shortblock sitting around and I'll be surprised. Superior how? They are more spacious, more comfortable, and have better air conditioning. Beyond that...well...I got nothing. Don't even get me started on the Pasha interior, which looks like a bad acid trip. way to go 70s Now, you threw a supercharger on your car and it will keep up with 996TTs. I threw a blower and some other **** onto a POS mustang and it would keep up with an Enzo till nearly 200 mph. That means what? The body looks like a door stop with a lump of mozzerlla welded onto the back. How you think it looks modern, I have no idea. P.s. its not a supercar.

Are you blind or just insane? This has to be one of the most perfect looking cars ever built. Just enough styling to look incredible. And,, worth about 4 times as much as any NA 996 (excluding GT3).

I love the 993 turbo as well but I think the ultimate in classic Porsche design personally is this one:

You guys are full of donkey dust!! No 901 (911) will ever drive as well or look as good as any Komenda designed 356. The 911 line was the beginning of a long slope of degradation of the pristine line of Porsche cars. Gmund Coupe, America Roadster, Fuhrmann engine Speedster Carrera, RSK, 904. etc. Any 911 is just a poor excuse for a proper sports car.

I think the general public doesn't even know the differences in our cars! The 911, in whatever version, is one of the world's most iconic shapes however you look at it and that is what most people see. In general, they don't see any difference in the subtle changes in the models/years. It is still amazing to me how much attention my lowly 99-996 C2 with 125,500 miles on it draws. Most people who ask about it say it looks brand new, and, of course in their minds I spent $100,000's of dollars for it. I love all the Porsche designs and in particular my 996, mainly because I choose it and it is mine.

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Why would you pick an image of a modified, wide-body, aero-kitted 993 (particularly one with 996 turbo twists on it) to defend the basic styling of a 993? Most look far more like this, IMHO not even remotely in contention for "the most perfect looking cars ever built".

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I prefer the 964 and the 996.2 head lights over the 993 head lights. I think the 993 head lights are the worst looking thing on the car but the rear end looks amazing. I'm being very picky though because they all look good over all.

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It seems the 993 is really the perfect car for you... You hate the M96 engine, plus you never drive your car and want a perfectly detailed specimen sitting inside the garage. *Perfect* scenario to go find a decent but somewhat unloved 993 to take apart, polish, and have sit in the garage instead of your own doomed/ugly/depreciating 996? IMHO, a 996 makes a much better drivers car than the 993, but the 993 is certainly a better 'clean it with diapers and let it sit in the garage and appreciate" car. It also would be huge bonus points for the 996 forum as you would then be spending all your time on the 993 forum??

This thread is absurd. So far three out of my friends asked if my 2002 996 was a brand new Porsche. To the outside public, there is absolutely no difference between 993, 996, or 991. Less than 1% of the world's population owns a Porsche 911; other 99%+ look at 911 Porsches and either smile, point, or shake fists at them. Total production number of 996 cars was 162,000 + ~15,000 or so 1998 and 2005 cars cars ( Source ). In 2011 there were total of 59,929,016 passenger cars produced ( Source ). This makes ALL of 996 Porsches produced a mere 0.3% a total number of cars produced in 2011 ALONE. 996 is a rare, great performing, and iconic car. General public sees it a super car and couldn't care less about which headlights you have. All 911s still sound and look the same to outsiders. Very few people in this world can afford a late model Porsche, most settle for the wall poster. Enjoy your cars gents (and ladies), don't argue about headlights or car values.

blah, they are all overpriced VWs anyways

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Well spoken. From the very beginning Porsche owners seemed to dislike the newer versions of every model that replaced the tried and true original that was first produced . Just look at some of the Porsche faithful who don't like the newest 911, the 991.

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This might be the best thing I have ever read on this forum ever.

I might be wrong but I think you could get the 993 C4S with the wing and wheels as factory options. Maybe someone else knows? Its one of my favorites, thats why. Sure looks like it to me.

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I see that we will never have an intelligent conversation since you already have your mind set. Too bad as thia could have been a good one. Do you judge and put down people based on no first hand experience like you do with cars?

I notice you didn't dispute the value comment. The 993 value continues to climb while ours plummets faster than a 90's tech stock. Imre, youve been here 10 years and you have to ask this?

To clarify, the 996 does NOT share its front end with the Boxster. Rather, it is the other way around: it's the Boxster that shares its front end with the 996. The 996 was designed first. As a cost-saving measure, the later Boxster was adapted from some 996 components. Oh, and for a $3 roll of shelf paper and a razor blade, instant oval headlights for the 996! (at least that's what it looks like this guy did):

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agreed. well put. / thread

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Well put!

Here is my step child - 04 GT3 with 4k miles. It is hideous.

993 front end = Volkswagen 996 front end = modern and beautiful, that's why the boxter copied it

^^^. Fabulous ! Style preference is subjective, makes no sense to argue what "looks" better.. Riz that car looks Great to me !

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Looks like a turbo that has S styling added. See turbo + turbo S side by side below: 33880848.jpg Turbo twist was around for 993.

Well, I for one couldn't be happier with my 996, even if it's apparently the biggest piece of **** Porsche the world ever experienced. I guess I'm in to poop!

... Stand corrected... A very similar looking twist style wheel came on some 993 Turbo's ... Still, tons of 996 turbo-twists retrofitted onto 993's!

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no no, that was the 928, get it right seriously? How many pictures does the guy have to post? Hollow spoke turbo twists came on the 993 turbo. the same style is on the 993 in the picture on the previous page. Yes, the 996 also has turbo twists of a different style.

KrazyK puts up the perfect example of how beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Right from day one the 993 turbo looked awkward to me. The rear fenders are too wide, and that heavy looking melted cheese looking tail is just the icing on the cake. Boy I'm glad you like it dude, but it sure as shootin' isn't perfect styling. Way far from it....count me out. The MkII 996 GT3 on the other hand. Now that's a looker. Hey - Maybe the air cooled fanboys should ..you know...shuffle off to their own forum?

You can get a couple MK1 996's for the same price as a late model 993 right now, and enjoy driving them daily, and they are great cars. When I look at it that way, I don't see the value in the 993. No way is it twice the car compared to the 996..collectible or not. Even if i wanted to spend 40K plus on a what for me is essentially a toy, I'd go 996 turbo before stepping back in time into 993.. but again that's just my preference.

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928 GTS made it on 5 Best Non-911 Porsche Production Cars list

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fantastic. Just better have a big enough garage for all the oil that thing is going to drink.

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styling is subjective, so thats your perogative. That said, from everything said...well...anywhere, most people find the 993 and 993TT to be some of the best looking 911s built by porsche. So, your opinion is valid but you are in the minority.

Your the only one. I don't think anyone is trying to put the 996 TT, GT2, or GT3 into the same POS list that the M96 powered 996 is in. You can now buy a plain C2 996 in the $10K range which is really hard to believe but its happening. This isnt and wont ever happen with the 993. Some of us are taking a lot of heat for stating the truth about the 996 but I once again reference the IMSB failure poll. Its actually over 10% now. Thats embarrassing for an $80,000+ car. My 996 looks great, handles great, and is fun to drive. But,,, I know Im not the only one here that worries as they leave the garage. OK, is a chain going to snap, cylinder going to self destruct or score, IMSB, and on , and on. Hence its safer to just not use it except for a local run around town (cheaper tow bill).

screw this.... I'm gonna buy me a real car... something that gets respect .. like a K car or one of the old Renault alliances.

Marc, you already have one Porsche that gets respect. (Your 930's worth more than your 996).

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My 86 is not a 930, It's a 3.2 Carrera. had it 19 years! But in all seriousness about this unadulterated utterly worthless thread, I have been driving Porsche's for a long time and there have always been these conversations about all kinds of Porsche models. cars that got ZERO respect are now collectible. I've had a few 944/951's, terrific cars! But back in those days not even considered a real Porsche. They had their issues, Timing belts, water pumps, springs on the clutch disks. I could go on. Man I loved my 944 Turbos! There are Porsche owners that do not stress about headlight shapes, what people think and all that crap. Some of us just drive our cars and enjoy them for what they are. If there are weaknesses we do the what we can to be proactive. If ya cant handle that you should be driving another car. These cars are cheap because they built crapload of them. Most of the people that buy them don't know an IMS from an IUD. anyway, I gotta go look at a Pontiac Aztek I hear is for sale.

Let's keep it in perspective. All 911's are good looking...but this is beautiful...

For me, sharing parts with the Boxster was a Selling Point. After screwing around with quasi-unique European cars off and on for years when the only response is, "Hey, that part's out of production..." Sharing parts with the Boxster meant that parts would be made longer and would be cheaper. Excellent. My kind of car.

"Some of us just drive our cars and enjoy them for what they are. If there are weaknesses we do the what we can to be proactive. If ya cant handle that you should be driving another car." Spot on!

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That is because there are really only 4 non 911 Porsche production cars? Happy Friday!

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That is a really unique Ford Fusion coupe.concept - beautiful.

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Apparently not.

Your seriously stating the 996 (not GT's) holds value better than the 993? What are yall smoking up there?

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Dude... I said I don't see the value in them.. Personal choice..I don't value them twice as much as a 996. I would not pay double.. Just to have one...my opinion, and I am welcome to it. We smokem all types of good stuff up here..

Speculative value in semi-collectible and collectible cars is all over the place... Cars go way up, cars go way down. 993's are hardly 'exploding' in value... and 996's are hardly dropping like a rock. I'm seeing very similar prices for quality examples of both 993's and 996's that I saw last December, maybe +/- 10%. Does that mean that some 993's are transacting for silly expensive money and some folks (Imo000 :-) scoring 996's for silly cheap? No. But neither of those categories are likely to have a car I'd be interested in or deals that stick around long enough to take advantage of. In terms of price bumps in the last six months, it's really the 911SC's that have taken a huge jump... $11K used to get you a very decent driver and $16K a very well sorted SC last summer. Now crappy cars are getting over $15K and a well sorted SC is over $23K, even with high miles. I'll bet you 993's haven't taken a 50% price bump in the last 12 months... But again, KK, *why* do you keep your car? It seems like it does nothing but cause you misery... Sell it and buy whatever condition 993 the proceeds will get you, then you can stop your endless bitching about how fast the 996 depreciates, what a ****ty motor it has, how they are all going to be worth the price of a starbucks coffee in another six months, etc.

^ Agreed. The only thing I've come up with is that KK derives some kind of odd pleasure from owning something that causes him anxiety. Why else would you insist on keeping a car that causes you so much stress? If prices are falling as fast as Krazy predicts, why wouldn't he be driving the hell out of his car? In another six months, he'll be able to pick up a parts car for $500.

The 996 is a great car and I do enjoy mine, but, I would never sugar coat the issues for those that are asking questions and dont understand the problems with the 996. For most of us its not an issue. We know what the problems are and know how to correct them. Its the poor souls that think "its a Porsche" so it must be trouble free considering the MSRP. If I hadnt done all my own repairs, I would have burnt through a lot of $$$, just in labor, within a short time. I just disagree with how some seem to try and gloss over the problems while only stating the great things, such as handling, etc. Lets just be open about all the 996 has to offer. The bad included. They are great cars but my comment to the potential buyer is: You better know the 996 inside and out or your going to be in for some huge disappointments.

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You could fit the Grand Canyon between 'glossing over issues' and the constant and hyperbolic negativity you voice towards 996's... KK hyperbole examples in the past few days alone: "The 993 value continues to climb while ours plummets faster than a 90's tech stock." "I know Im not the only one here that worries as they leave the garage. OK, is a chain going to snap, cylinder going to self destruct or score, IMSB, and on , and on. Hence its safer to just not use it except for a local run around town (cheaper tow bill)." "why the heck should he be enjoying a 996? Be sure to explain the 100 modes of failure, the entire IMSB saga, intermix issues, bad AOS, faulty oil gauge, leaky RMS, D-chunking, out of round crank bore, cylinder wall scoring, water pump impeller destruction, overheating hot spots, cracked heads, porous blocks, overpriced parts, extreme repair costs, etc. Dont forget to include the free falling sell prices " "Dont expect much power out of the NA M96. Dont bother modding it, because it will surely fail" Maybe you should put this part of your post as your signature so we don't forget that you do actually like your car... "The 996 is a great car and I do enjoy mine, ... We know what the problems are and know how to correct them. ... stating the great things, such as handling, etc." But for some common ground, I actually do completely agree with you on this point: "You better know the 996 inside and out or your going to be in for some ... disappointments."

Came to the 996 forum contemplating starting or finding a thread on why the 996 exists, and I find this one right on top! So I was at RAC Performance having an alignment done on the 964 today, and some 996 C2 pulled in, and "why?" was the first thought that came to mind. The car should have never existed. Should have been skipped, and Porsche should have just gone straight to the 997. My thinking is mostly about the cosmetics, bc I just don't care enough to look deeper into the car. My thoughts from this thread: The GT3, GT2, Turbo, and C4 cars are alllllmost good looking enough to make it happen for me, allllmost enough to get over the blasphemous fried eggs, but I can never get over the interior. The design has just always been horribly ugly to me. A common argument here is "people stop me all the time and think my car is awesome." This goes to show what's important to 996 owners: being admired for driving a porsche. No problem that its the one that never should have been made, and that it looks like a jelly bean, it says porsche on the hood! People think I'm driving an expensive car! I guess it just shows who they're trying to impress: soccer moms and their kids at the gas station, not people who actually know cars. And so I don't focus my rant 100% on the 996, I was also developing my thoughts on the 991, and, while I like the car, the lines, the interior, it's not a 911. It's a car that should have been made, but it should have been something new, bc its just not a 911. /rant Now tell me how bad my 964 is

KrazyK, I see your point about giving both the good and the bad about the car. But, every performance car on the market has its own unique issues. By your logic, very few performance cars should be worth anything at all due to their problems. And virtually every performance car from the 996 era should be worth less than $5,000.00. Here are the examples : E46 M3: total junk with VANOS blowing up, SMG blowing up every 100 miles, engines exploding every 1,000 miles and being replaced by BMW under warranty. Recommended action: melt it for Lenin’s statue replica, sell the statue to Cuba and buy a 993. E60 M5: total junk with VANOS hideously expensive to fix, SMG transmission pump failing constantly, numerous electrical issues, iDrive not working. Recommended action: sell one immediately and buy a 993. E39 M5: total junk with vanos failures, engine sludge problems, pixels failing on the gauges, electrical failures, tiny clutch constantly blowing up. Recommended action: donate one to local modern art museum and use the tax refund to buy a 993. W211 E55k: total junk with air suspension failing every 100 yards, supercharger failing, supercharger chirping, brakes constantly squeaking, engine heat soak, intercooler pumps failing. Recommended action: drive one off the Grand Canyon’s edge, file an insurance claim and buy a 993. MK1 CTS-V: total junk with rear ends exploding on every launch, engines breaking valve springs every fill up, and transmission synchros failing daily. Recommended action: transform the CTS into a potting plant holder and raise cannabis in it, use the proceeds to buy a 993. Every performance car has its unique issues. On almost every car forum the uninitiated will get the impression that every car on that forum cannot make it 10 miles without some sort of catastrophic failure. There is a big difference between alerting people to the "problem areas" of the vehicle and constantly ragging on the car you drive, its value, and its appeal.

Quotes source post: 10690630

I just chuckle when I see stuff like this... *Exactly* what "true" 911 owners thought about your 964 when it was introduced... Went something like this: Coil springs? Heresy! 911's use torsion bars! Power Steering?? Garbage! 911's are all about steering feel!! ABS??? I know how to drive and don't want some computer interfering!!! And those bumpers are so damn ugly, the car feels so heavy Porsche never should have made this car! As far as the 911 aficionados were concerned at the time, the 964 was an abomination. When I look at pictures of my old 911SC, I think "That was a gorgeous car... I really miss looking at it". But when driving or servicing my 996, I never wish I was driving or servicing the SC instead...

Quotes source post: 10690630

What a tool. Don't sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back.

Cisco stock circa 1997 8 bucks Cisco stock today after a bs drop 24 bucks I am pretty sure it's tech ? Or did you buy unicorns and bunny farts ? 996 more fun than sky diving, reigning horses and my ex wife combined I love my car

Sorry... Best 19 grand I ever spent

Quotes source post: 10690669

Sinner! How could you even dream of badmouthing the 911 model that introduced Tiptronic to the world?

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Quotes source post: 10690630

Nah. I like your 964. But after that rant, pretty sure I don't like you. Am I to believe that you have just now realized Porsche made a 996? And you just now decided to go fishing for info on why it was made? Really? You Texas guys don't get it. Troll.

The 964 and 911SC above are both beautiful classics. I think hes just ribbing us. Lets keep our sense of humor!

Quotes source post: 10690844

Ya think? I luv vag.

Quotes source post: 10690838

I've only been a Porsche guy since i was about 8. Today was not the first time I'd seen a 996, and was definitely not the first time I pondered its existence. I'm sure money was behind the reason it was created, and that's fine. Updates in technology/safety are great. All of my arguments against the car are strictly cosmetic. I can admit that water cooling was a necessary move, and have no problem with a certain amount of driver assistance. Does it make anyone feel better if I say I don't really care for the design of the 993 either? The difference is, however, I will still have a look around a 993 any time I see one in person, which can be said for me and any other 911 as well, except for the 996. Just doesn't do it for me. It's good that you guys like your cars though. Don't let me detract from that. There's something for everyone, and I was simply stating my opinion on a thread asking if the 996 is a step child.

Tastes change... while I hated the first generation Boxters, they are growing on me... especially as I see their resemblance to the RSK race cars. The 996 is a great car, but the engine grenading keeps me out of them. I started with 993s and they are still my favorite. However, I hated the 964s. I have one now and I love it. I'm pretty sure an early boxter is in my future too.

Quotes source post: 10690861

Don't be dirty, that stands for VW Automotive Group!

I know folks that have both 993 and 996, they never read forums. They swear by the 996 for smoother driving and better performance. They think I am crazy when I tell them the newer car is worth less. This thread: Anchorman_well_that_escalated_quickly_966.jpg

I'll also say that I have no problem with the way a 996 drives. It is enjoyable.

Well. lets all keep in mind for a few years the only cars Porsche put out were the 996 or a Boxster. All other variants failed. Porsche was out of steam and was about to get put into a blender with some sort of merger, and likely disappear. Then the Cayenne added more profit, and bada bing, now they are back up to 6 if you include the 918. Ill agree inferior quality in interior and some other small annoyances exist as a result of this necessary evil, but to say the car is a piece of junk (relative to others) ain't true. But what do i know, I also like the 964, the other "supposed" bastard child of the air cooled world.

In re. Porsche's history of odd reliability issues (964s, 993s, and 996s; all of which I have owned), I am a daily visitor to BMW (have a '09 X3) and Mercedes(have a '09 E350) forums, too, and I find the same kinds of recurring issues and paranoia pertaining to particular model groups. Could it be that the much vaulted German engineering is over rated? Or could it be that too many owners of these fine cars are easily frightened? No offence meant, but its probably a little bit of both. relinuca

Is there a function that allows these stupid threads to be hidden?

Let's all be honest here. I've owned a few earlier p-cars and other sports cars over the years (Triumph, MG, Alfa, etc.), and they all have their own reliability issues, including the glorious air-cooled 911's. The truth is - if you want a bullet-proof, reliable, gas-and-go car, you don't buy this type of car - YOU BUY A TOYOTA! To answer vagluv's question, "why did Porsche build the 996"? I think the simplest answer is to survive. If Porsche didn't build the 996, there wouldn't be a Porsche as we know it now. Besides, I think the 'fried egg' lights look cool. They look exactly like the headlights on the 1998 LeMan's winning Porsche 911 GT1, how cool is that? Regarding the interior of the 996, I had an '87 930 back in the day and the interior in that thing was nothing to brag about and let's not even discuss the air-conditioning!

Quotes source post: 10691475

Just post a picture of your gorgeous red headed Targa. My wife has a tendency to criticize and express her "opinion" of what other people own. I constantly remind her that the odds are that people own what they like, and perhaps some people don't like what we own. And unless you own what you do because of what other people think (and some folks do live like that) then how exactly does it affect her life?

Quotes source post: 10691500

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First off, I'm going to say that there are waaay too many of these navel gazing "why does everyone hate us" threads in any 996 forum - but we need to get over it. The performance of the 996 and 997 models (within their respective classes) is virtually identical. Even Porsche's published specs (anyone remember that "silhouettes" layout in Christophorus a few years back) show that they are pretty much identical. However, the 996 is an AMAZING deal given its prices - they are still substantially less than 997 pricing, sometimes less than half. So, if you are worried about what a few people think (and most of the population has no clue what the difference is between a 996 and 997, or even a 991) - maybe you should just buy a BMW. If you want a great value on a true sportscar that you can drive the crap out of, get a 996.