PSM thoughts

I've been shopping for a 996 for awhile(I'll either find the right car soon, or just decide to put myself on the 997 list, I guess). I've been eyeing one car recently, a leftover '02 C2 that is almost exactly what I want, except the car lacks PSM. Anyway, this morning I was driving one of my lowly 3 series BMW's to work. I'd gone about 2 miles, when I came around a blind curve and the same instant I noticed some ice on the road, the DSC (BMW equivalent of PSM) was already pulsing the brakes at one wheel to keep the car on a perfect course with no intervention from me. I was going at a speed where I wouldn't have lost control anyway, but the system really impressed me, as it has a couple of other times when I intentionally pushed the car a little on some slick side streets. The DSC is standard on even entry level BMW's. It adds almost no weight, can be turned off if the driver wishes, and is a significant safety advantage. Now I know Porsche wants to be the world's most profitable auto maker, but how can they justify charging $1200 for PSM? I can understand outrageously marking up footwell lighting or carbon fiber trim, but charging this for a piece of safety equipment standard on far cheaper cars seems truly greedy. I've bought two previous P-cars, and this kind of thing sort of turns me off. Am I being unreasonable?

Caf, Unfortunaly it comes w/ the territory, personally it's the carbon fiber %*@* that gets me, and w/those type options you'll hardly get a nickel back if you sell. At least (I'd like to think) PSM is very worth while,& the least noticable of all the systems currently out there. I would'nt buy a modern trackable "street" car w/out such a thing again. By the way my '02 C2 is probably available( Buying a 2nd home in Fla) & it has PSM! Send me a private e-mail if you want e-pics etc. Good luck on whatever you buy... Bill

I shopped for nearly a year before I bought my usd 996. PSM was a requisite. Buddy of mine wrapped his P-car sans PSM around a tree. It is one of those things you can't add later that you will always wish you had...

Driving home from work today I decided to turn off the PSM for fun. I took a right turn quite slowly then blurped the throttle half way thru the turn and ...wamo! out stepped the rear end in big time throttle oversteer fashion. Note this was a sunny , dry afternoon albeit on cold tires, but a turn I aggressively take daily with PSM. Ummm...PSM don't leave home without it! If you still don't believe me there is a post on the 996TT board from a guy who just "wrote off" his GT2.

imo, psm is the most essential option on a porsche. i think it should be standard on all porsches . it IS standard in the 2002 c4s which probably needs ir less than the c2! <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> go figure as for options, in general--porsche is shameless! <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> one reason i got a c4s is that it comes with most options standard. in general the cost of options--especially cosmetic ones like carbon fiber are totally worthless on resale i would not have gotten the cosmetic add ons like the aluminum shifter and brake on my c4s if i had ordered the car from the factory instead of getting it from dealer stock. <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" />

I pretty much agree that PSM is an essential safety feature. As to the question "Why is it not standard?", I believe the answer lies in marketing. Porsche is supposed to be a street legal race car, and their current top line car, the GT2, does not have PSM. Their racer, the GT3, does not have PSM. A lot of people who race have stated that PSM is "cheating". Ergo, a race car, a Porsche, should not have PSM. However, if you want it, you can have it. Therefore, it's an option. Me? I have it, I have it switched on even on the track, it has never come on while I drive on the track, it has not come on since I've had the car. But, my air bags have also not deployed, and I still want to have both airbags and PSM in my car for that one instance when they are needed.

palting i don't think that we had any choice re psm in our 2002 c4s -- it's standard. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ignacio, I guess we don't have a "real" race car then, heh-heh . Honestly, I don't understand the PSM naysayers. When PSM first came out, some people were saying it's not worth it, that it detracts from the true race car, and that to drive the track with one on means one will never learn the true racing line, yada-yada-yada. I finally decided to just leave them in the dust, or in some instance, THEIR dust when they go off track when PSM could have kept them on-track.

If you enter a 40mph corner at 80mph PSM will allow you to crash under full control. There's no substitute for driver skill.

I guess that on the whole I am FOR anything that saves me from my over-inflated belief in my own abilities.

Well said, Paul <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

I'll drink to that <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

psm obviously won't save you from a reckless error such as 80mph in a 40 mph corner but it might save you from skidding at 50mph on a wet day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> psm also never intrudes before it is really necessary <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> psm is a quantum leap over the mercedes esp or bmw dsc systems which are much more intrusive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

One reason not to get PSM is if you want a car with LSD. The GT3, GT2 and some of the C2's come/came with LSD. I like PSM but if I had to choose between the two it would be a difficult choice. Stephen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by ignacio: <strong>psm obviously won't save you from a reckless error such as 80mph in a 40 mph corner(</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Why do you assume that 80 in a posted 40 mph corner is a "reckless error"? It depends upon the driver. p.s. There are certainly many situations, especially on corner exit, where PSM can intrude where it isn't neccessary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete: p.s. There are certainly many situations, especially on corner exit, where PSM can intrude where it isn't neccessary.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Pete, I have to disagree with you. I always have PSM switched on, whether at the track or on the street. The car has done 4 wheel drifts under partial to full throttle at corners, during entry, at apex or at exit. PSM has never intruded. Not even when I lifted at the middle of a tight turn when I got distracted by a bimmer that spun out in front of me. The rear stepped out for a few moments before I got back on the gas to plant it. No PSM intrusion. OTOH, on the same track, in the same day, several corners later, I forgot where I was and a corner came up unexpectedly. I kinda waffled whether I should brake or gas, do it hard or modulate it, and PSM made the decision for me. I am certain I would have gone off track if not for PSM. Instead, I could hear and feel the brakes modulating at different ends of the car, and the car tracked around the corner. The exit came up, and I decided to floor it. Absolutely nothing happened. I guess PSM figured I started the turn stupid, it wasn't going to let me finish it stupid. It seemed like forever but was probably only fractions of a second before it let me have the gas pedal back. I don't think PSM is at all intrusive. It seems quite intuitive. It lets you do all sorts of manuevers, and seems to know just when the "OH S##T!!" point is reached. Damaged pride and ego is better than damaged car and body anyday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Palting: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete: p.s. There are certainly many situations, especially on corner exit, where PSM can intrude where it isn't neccessary.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Pete, I have to disagree with you. I always have PSM switched on, whether at the track or on the street. The car has done 4 wheel drifts under partial to full throttle at corners, during entry, at apex or at exit. PSM has never intruded. &lt;sniparooni&gt; I don't think PSM is at all intrusive. It seems quite intuitive. It lets you do all sorts of manuevers, and seems to know just when the "OH S##T!!" point is reached. Damaged pride and ego is better than damaged car and body anyday.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Palting, with all due respect, I have to contend with a bit more HP/torque than you do. Once you get some more DEs under your belt you should experiment, only if you deem it prudent, with turning off PSM. It's good for your driving and can certainly get you around the track faster. PSM is a wonderful safety net, it allows a great deal of wheel slippage (7% slip angle) but it certaily can intrude in many cases if you're driving hard. In addition, there are corners on a few tracks were PSM intrudes and doesn't allow you to rotate the car (via a slight lift mid corner) and where I am definitely faster without PSM on. Again, it's a wonderful system but it can intrude if you're really pushing the car and/or have to deal with much more torque than the C4s delivers.

Overall even if PSM may intrude in some at the limit cases in a more powerful TT in the track, its a small price to pay for all 996's having that safety buffer on the track and ESPECIALLY on the streets and does an incredible job at it (and has no equal on the market), it allows me to push it harder in the streets with different driving conditions and surface conditions, etc were I do most of my driving due to the greater safety margin. I can think of only very few cases were PSM is would be unwanted or turned off. I guess once you have been saved from running off the road at one time or another by PSM, like Palting or me, can't think of driving without it :-)

Personally I didn't want PSM I live in a moderate climate and have a truck to drive in the rare Ice and Snow we get in NC.I did have dsc on an M-3 and found it really intrusive at the track which is what I am a total track rat.Anyway I think the reason that you don't find Psm on the GT-2 and 3 is that your average racing driver wants to retain control of wheelspin and if he wants to lose traction he doesn't want a computer second guessing him.I'm getting the impression that a lot of the posters in this thread feel that there is some unpredictability to these cars I find my 2002 c-2 utterly predictable and perfectly responsive and always a gas to drive!Turn off that PSM and find a likely skidpad and let that rear end go you will be very pleased and reassurred

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> I'm getting the impression that a lot of the posters in this thread feel that there is some unpredictability to these cars I find my 2002 c-2 utterly predictable and perfectly responsive and always a gas to drive! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not at all, the car is extremly predictable, whats unpredictable when driving hard is the gravel in the mid corner some truck dragged from the edge of the road, or the dirt the rain washed into the road, or the idiot who jumps in your lane while you are accelerating hard out of a corner in a rainy day, or the sudden tightening of a corner that you didn't pay attention to, or the dog that runs in front of you comming out of a corner, or you simply come in a bit too fast, or... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Turn off that PSM and find a likely skidpad and let that rear end go you will be very pleased and reassurred </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Done that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> the car is very predictable and controlable and its fun for a while but then try picture yourself in a dangerous situation in the street with other cars doing that with the PSM ON and see what happens. If its to little intrusive then it can only come ON when its too late for the PSM mecanisms to work against tha laws of fisics, if acts to quickly it will have a better chance of correcting the potentially dangerous situation before it happens but it will hinder sporty driving (i.e BMW's DSC). There has to be a balance between intrusivenes and effectiveness which Porsche has got just right, for my taste anyway Check out this video that Andreas shared with us from this thread, if that Lancer would have had PSM he may have run off the road but probably not flipped over ... <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000690" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000690</a>

I have an '02 996 Cab and I let the dealer talk me out of PSM. Figured I'd only be driving the car on sunny days. Last weekend it was sunny, I was getting on it on a wet entrance ramp...and almost wrapped the car around a guardrail. My stupidity? Absolutely. Would PSM have saved me from myself? Absolutely. I won't have another Porsche without it. Jack