67 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHIMS/RMS/Clutch quote
Reported or suspected cause
pretty much gone
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Identified cause
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Suspected cause
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Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
They are so attuned with diagnostic scan tools doing all their work for them, that the days of actually having human intervention solve a mechanical problem is pretty much gone.
Leading evidence: 'pretty much gone' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'pretty much gone' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check clutch, flywheel, etc...and there was no reason' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Check clutch, flywheel, etc...and there was no reason
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
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Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
They checked the clutch, flywheel, etc...and there was no reason to change it.
Fill with urban legend about not even being mechanically possible
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
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Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
You have to remember that the dialogue on forums in those days was much different, because the IMSR was a black art that was filled with urban legend about not even being mechanically possible.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Just had the IMS bearing, rear main seal and clutch replaced - $2200.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
You never have to ask for the little extras, like cutting the oil filter open every oil change to make sure that nothing has changed health-wise with your motor since the last time.
Fill with urban legend about not even being mechanically possible
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported fixes
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Unsuccessful attempts
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Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
You have to remember that the dialogue on forums in those days was much different, because the IMSR was a black art that was filled with urban legend about not even being mechanically possible.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
pretty much gone
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
They are so attuned with diagnostic scan tools doing all their work for them, that the days of actually having human intervention solve a mechanical problem is pretty much gone.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
67 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261026T112012Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
Wow, after all the angst reading here and now with the class action suit and seeing my VIN listed, I just decided to bite the bullet and cost out the whole nine yards...IMS, RMS and clutch.
First quote $2600...[with the LN]!!
I don't think I'll be calling anybody else!
That price is strangely low. Parts alone should be almost that much.
Complete clutch kit (clutch, flywheel, throwout bearing, etc.) is ~$1200
LNE IMS bearing is $600
Oil/filter change (part of install of the LNE bearing) is $100 for materials
LNE install is 3-4 hours
Clutch job shop time is 6-8 hours
Just had the IMS bearing, rear main seal and clutch replaced - $2200.
Charged for 6 hours of labor. Originally having the IMS bearing replaced with the LNE. Mechanic told me they would check condition of clutch and replace, if necessary, which they did as it was down to 30%. No additional charge for labor on the clutch as it was already apart.
No sense in crying over spilled milk IMO. You should always get a written itemized estimate before the work starts so you're not caught off guard and it lets you comparison shop if their rates or quotes seem excessive.
I never quite understood people that just drop off their cars and tells the mechanic do what you need to do and then surprised at how much things are after the fact.
This is a car and not your health you're dealing with, although the bill could affect your health I suppose...
Yep, next up is an alignment and I'm going to be trying a different indy. I should have added that even with the 14 hours labor the whole job with parts was just shy of 2K, they were also the only local shop listed as a preferred LNE installer.
the shop isnt doing you any favors by quoting low - if there are other parts (like the flywheel) that should be replaced - either they skip it and you get to pay twice for the same R&R when it fails - or they raise the price and your bill is a lot higher then expected - I would prefer they shoot high (include all of the "while you're in there list) and then trim back due to not needing everything)
with low miles you may not need anything else - but they should at least warn you of the potential unless they can see through the trans case and tell how the clutch was driven for the last 26k miles without opening it up
still - I think with low miles you are smart changing it - come back and fill out the end or report with a total what you end up actually paying - I would like to know
Keep in mind that C4 and Automatic trans add time/$$ to the job. If you don't state which model you have/had the work done on it is hard to know how that charge relates to other quotes/charges.
911Mater:
hey dosie,im in charlotte also and my 04 is also listed have 51k,,may i ask where and who did the work for you,,the price sounds reasonable ,thanks
Motorwerks in Denver NC
I'll post here with details of the experience and costs.
Well, it's "job well done" to Exclusive Motorwerks in Denver, NC. Would highly suggest to those who have the slightest anxiety over this issue to get it done...not that expensive for an insurance against a blown engine, and if your VIN is on the list of "suspect" cars, it should increase [or at least maintain] the value of your car.
They did hand my clutch back to me and said that I should save it for the next time I need one, as this one is hardly worn!
Recently had IMS replaced with LNE upgrade, RMS, Clutch, PP, TO bearing, Flywheel, OA sep, water pump, low temp thermostat, reseal leaking oil pan. Oil and filter. ALL needed. 51k miles on the car. could have done most of the work myself but NO garage anymore. Total P&L $5300. Top Indy in area. Porsche dealer told me the had to split case and replace shaft. Problem started when I noticed small oil leak. Probably just RMS, leaked oil was pretty clean. clutch was shot and scored the flywheel, couldn't be turned. water pump was leaking. Bottom line I FEEL better having the IMS done, rest of work was necessary too.
Recently had IMS replaced with LNE upgrade, RMS, Clutch, PP, TO bearing, Flywheel, OA sep, water pump, low temp thermostat, reseal leaking oil pan. Oil and filter. ALL needed. 51k miles on the car. could have done most of the work myself but NO garage anymore. Total P&L $5300. Top Indy in area. Porsche dealer told me the had to split case and replace shaft. Problem started when I noticed small oil leak. Probably just RMS, leaked oil was pretty clean. clutch was shot and scored the flywheel, couldn't be turned. water pump was leaking. Bottom line I FEEL better having the IMS done, rest of work was necessary too.
I had this work done on my 2000 C2 Cab this past Nov. Included was a new clutch kit w/out replacing but turning the flywheel, although no signs of issues...L&N IMS update, again no issues...but new RMS, oil/filter change,and a few other minor parts. Out the door tax included, $3300 at an Indy I use and trust. My local dealership quoated me almost 2k more for the same work!
Martin, my IMS was the factory original that came with the car, model year 2000 and I'm not sure on whether they were a dual or single row(I'm sure someone can chime in with that info), but it was in great shape! I was replacing my original factory clutch for the first time at 68k miles, and since I had already paid for the labor to get to the cltuch and IMS area's, it was a no brainer to go ahead and update the IMS for piece of mind! I'm in the camp of the IMS issues with these M96 motors being a bit overblown(I realize they have and do happen), but mine looked/functioned great! I simply considered updating it as preventative maitenence. Cheers!
Brent
Thanks Brent! Nice to know your IMS was in good shape as it is good news for those not having done the switch yet.
The reason I asked as to whether it was dual or single-row is that there is a common belief that yr 2000 was a transition yr for IMS bearings for 996s. Linking this info with your VIN could help us determine where the transition took place. Some say it was more in 2001, which is credible as well but no one is really certain. Every little bit of correlation info helps! Cheers!
Martin
Brent, which Indy did you use for your repairs? I live across the lake from you and will be having the same work done in the not-to-distant future.
Thanks,
Bob
I recently did my clutch and RMS myself, and had the flywheel turned (by a local shop) with a total cost of roughtly $600...Decided not to touch the IMS (visiual inspection looked fine)...
As I've explained before there are people that throw around 2000 and 2001 because some got what's essentially our 2001 US model a year earlier and some reference the manufactured date instead.
If you notice, the 996 is referenced as '98 model in Europe even though we didnt' get it til '99. Also some websites will reference parts for the 996 model as starting from '97-.
This is where some people are confused because there is USA, ROW, and manufactured date that gets thrown around without any real or further clarification sometimes.
The official transition year is '01 USA model year.
Bob, I've used Akers on Capital Hill for practically all of my needs. Mark and his staff are all great guys and never try to upsale you on anything! They simply give you your options/their experience and opinions, and let you make the call. I really like and trust them all. You never have to ask for the little extras, like cutting the oil filter open every oil change to make sure that nothing has changed health-wise with your motor since the last time. I joked with Mark the last time I was in there, I said "I really like coming to visit you and the shop Mark , I just wish it didn't cost me money every time I do!" You can roam around the shop, check out all of the inersting toys in there,pick the brain of any of the mechanics etc... I doubt Barrier would ever let me hang out underneath my car on a lift while a procedure is being done and explained to you!
Brent
Cole Performance LLC is doing IMSB, and Sachs clutch kit on mine for:
IMSB (OEM type) $165
IMSB tools $249.99
Sachs Clutch kit $449.95
Total: $614.95 not including tools
Tools included: $864.94 (and I keep tools for next time)
Parts should be here in a couple of days. Cant Wait!
With the current drama and battle between Casper and LN about who has the best CH bearing I decided to go with Pelicans improved OEM type and just face the fact this is a regular maint. item with clutch kit. Plus it gives me a chance to take it apart again for fun.
Pelican bearing 40K miles
LN and Casper who the heck knows? 50K to 100K?
HOLD ON....
First off No DIY? And then you go behind JR's back and not do an LNE bearing retrofit?
What is this world coming to?
Man, that is the ultimate betrayal in more ways than one...
Alp, that is the DIY price. The company is mine. LOL.
No offense to JR, LN, or Casper but the drama between them about which one and why is absurd. Now they are all going top secret and will be refusing to sell them to chumps like us. So in goes the 40K Pelican bearing. Better buy what Pelican still has in stock if you want a CH bearing.
Ah gotcha. IIRC, Imre1000 had a source for bearings for $100 but not sure if it was CH or not. Either way, $165 isn't bad either considering the alternatives.
I expect a full video presentation of this procedure. j/k.
But in case you make one, make sure you show the JG DT-40 going in plain view.
Thanks for the info Brent. Great to hear about local shops that realize we have options and work hard to keep our business.
From what I've heard about the local Porsche dealership--your comments are dead on.
Bob
It was a Ceramic Hybrid, dual row. When I was doing it, Pelican only had a single row bearing with spacers to fit into a dual row shaft. If this is still the case, then this is a downgrade in my oppinion. The bearings that came from the factory are about $20 for the single row and less than $40 for the double row. The double row has a slightly longer than normal races but this can easily be compensated with small spacer (about the thickness of two washers). The more exotic hybrids are also more expensive too. The double row I put into mine was $100+shipping.
Having said that, some of my fellow regional PCA members swear by and have nothing but praise for Chris's German, which might be a bit more convenient since it's on your side of "the pond"!
I for one think we are very fortunate in the Pacific Northwest. I could name a number of skilled/reputable/passionate indy shops in the area. I don't have anything against Barrier and their staff, and have had some select services done there with great results. If I had a newer 997/991 under warranty, I'd probably go nowhere else, but with a 13yr. old 996 I just can't justify the 35-40% mark up on services over a skilled indy!
http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/cto/3704771697.html
Would a dealer do all this work and not tell the owner to upgrade (or at least refresh) the IMS? ugh.
Perhaps their initial shop estimate was 14 hours. If you had the engine dropped with anything replaced and the final bill was less than $2K I'm not sure that was unreasonable.
Imre, mines a single row and the new Pelican bearing is supposed to be an improvement over the OEM single row. If they are now admitting that even the C/H bearing should be replaced at 40K to 50K, why bother with LN for $600 or Casper for $500? Both claim they will no longer sell to public anyway so who needs em? I will just replace mine every clutch job and enjoy doing it.
I'm just not sure a Porsche dealer is going to recommend the installation of a non-factory part. Some will do a bearing upgrade if requested, but they are not going to offer.
And if the IMS settlement goes through, don't hold your breath waiting for an announcement from your local dealer.
I can't argue with you about Chris' German--they performed the PPI on mine last year, and some additional work a few months later. I've heard there are 3 or 4 good indy's on each side of the lake. Nice to know when the time comes for clutch/IMS/RMS/AOS replacement....
If it's not a hybrid, do they say what exactly is the improvement over the stock? I'm suspecting it's an off the shelf part (like the one Porsche uses for their single row) and you can find those at any bearing supply store for $20.
They had a story behind it about improved seals, etc, blah, blah. I have succumbed to replacing it every 30K to 40K with the clutch so I dont know how long it lasts.
Alp, they claim it doesnt self-destruct like the OEM one because of the improved seals.
At this point I feel like the M96.04 is the Titanic and no matter what you do there is mode of failure #1 through #200. Not the whole car just the egnine. Not buying the TT I looked at was one of the stupidist things Ive done in awhile.
I think you're writing off the M96 too prematurely and unfairly IMO. I mean look how many are out there. They can't all be ticking time bombs or most of them would've already exploded. You got lemons, make lemonade...
I hope you don't have kids. "Having that kid was the dumbest thing I've done..."
Update
....I have the "old" IMS bearing sitting on my desk. Today, I picked it up and held it real close to my ear and spun it slowly back and forth. Guess what? A slight gravely sound. How close was I to a disaster? As a non-professional, I don't know, but I do know that I'm glad I did the replacement. 2003 with 27K miles on the Odo.
^^^ That's correct, the ***** will be bouncing off the cage and it will sound like $hit. Add a tiny bit of oil or grease and it will quiet down. It's easy to scare people whem they don't know what normal is.
Price shopping this level of work is about the biggest mistake that someone can make. In the auto repair world cheap= fast and that means a total lack of pre and post procedure checks are done.
I am amazed when I instruct my classes that the people installing the IMS bearings are not removing the oil sump during the procedure. Everyone wants to race against a clock, which is fine if you are changing a starter, but not with an IMSR.
The IMSR requires an "engine building" mindset, which is why so many shops goof them up.
JR, does that include if your replacing the IMSB as PM and there is no indication of any metal or seal fragments in oil, oil filter, or sump?? Do you mean just pull the pan and inspect anyway?
Pelican still has some LNE's in stock but I would buy now if you need one. A source on Renntech says he can still get the Casper for now. Personally I just don't have the taste for their "mine is better" but " we wont sell you one" drama. I find it a little offensive that they think the IMSB is beyond the reach of a DIY'er and find their stingy sell attitude condescending and patronizing.
IIRC, JR had already stated that he is having a distributor sell the retrofits. He's looking to get out of the consumer direct channel and I see nothing wrong with that. I'd rather see him using his time to finish his book and any further research rather than answering calls and providing end user support on remedial questions on installing the retrofit.
As for Casper, he's not really interested in taking a sales/support role and would prefer to play an engineering role from what I gather.
FWIW, when you have all these novices trying to tackle an intermediate to difficult procedure(partly due to cost and circumstance situations), you're bound to have some bad installations and eventually finger pointing in all the wrong directions. Not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon(utmost attention to detail) and I've seen many nurses in this hobby trying to act like one. My $.02
Alp, I agree with most of that and it probably comes down to "these are your options for now" if you can still buy them:
Imre bearing $20 - $100
Pelican Improved OEM $165
Casper $325
LNE $650
F6I solution $3500+
At least there are options.
I had originally never wanted the IMSR to go into the hands of untrained professionals that had undergone training regarding the install of the unit. But, my role with the original IMSR bearing was just to be the developer of the process, tools and to ensure the units worked as they should, didn't lose power over stock, didn't break and that the kits were complete for an install. LN had the final say on the sales and decided that the logistics with training and the hassles associated with that were too great for the massive numbers of people that were absolutely begging for the IMSR technology.
You have to remember that the dialogue on forums in those days was much different, because the IMSR was a black art that was filled with urban legend about not even being mechanically possible. In those days if your engine just started to lose an IMSB it was doomed, because no one had a tool to extract it and no one had a bearing to replace it with. Hell for the first year people still didn't believe that it could be done and Porsche service advisors were still spreading "facts" that the bearing was non-servicable and could not be purchased.
My role with the IMS Solution is much different, because I invented it, so we are taking what we have learned with the IMSR and ensuring that it is not repeated with the IMS Solution. This means none will be sold for retail sale and each unit must be registered and each shop that carries out an install will receive a registration number. Each and every IMS Solution is also serialized and there will initially be 6 certified IMS Solution installers (placed strategically across North America) in the USA and Canada, all of which have been hand picked by Charles and I. Each of these certified installers will receive formal training on the entire procedure and will be required to pass an evaluation.
Other shops can buy the units from wholesalers, but they will not be certified.
This is what should have been employed with the IMSR to begin with, but the frenzy of shops and people wanting them didn't allow it. We learn from our mistakes. The IMS Solution is also for elective use only, and not to be used to repair an engine with a failed or failing IMSB.
What was the final blow in regard to retail IMSB sales was an installer that became vocal on a forum after HE made a mistake and then stated that the "bearing failed during install" when that didn't happen. He made a huge deal out of it, called LN and disrespected every employee there and even Charles.
The IMSR process is not hard, but it requires a methodical approach with attention to detail. It also requires mechanical inclination at a level thats much greater than what I see with today's technicians. Through my classes I made contact with over 400 technicians all across the continent last year and the majority of them simply do not have what it takes to carry out this level of work, even after attending the class. They are so attuned with diagnostic scan tools doing all their work for them, that the days of actually having human intervention solve a mechanical problem is pretty much gone. When I look out across a class people are just dumbfounded and I sometimes simply stop and ask if anyone understands any of it. In a classroom of 40 attendees I might have 3-4 people that actually "get it". Thats whats causing problems today.
I have become completely disinterested with selling anything other than a complete engine and I don't even trust any other shop to install them and thats why I have cars here from 18 states and two Canadian provinces today.
Anyway, rant off.... Nothing will be perfect, but if these jobs are not done thoroughly and without a deadline the retrofit will fail and guess where the finger points? You got it.
Jake, can you provide some clarification around this?
by "units" are you only referring to the retrofit, or also "the solution"?
Is certification needed for any warranty to be valid?
Looks like there's more to the LN install than finding the lowest bidder...glad I used a listed "LN preferred installer" who's done tons of these. Sounds like if I paid a premium it was worth it.
Yes, the Solution is what I was referring to.
Absolutely. The warranty is 30 days for parts only, not to cover the other 23 modes of engine failure. This isn't the kind of work someone does if they just want a piece of paper that makes them feel better.
Jake, after being in the business for 30 years I know exactly where you are coming from. For a while our shop preformed programming services for other shops in our area as we are equipped with factory diagnostic tools for all US and most Asian vehicles. We stopped doing this for some of the very same reasons you and Charles stopped providing your parts to the masses. We could not trust the level of competence. There is a level of understanding that is needed and we were only seeing it in10% of the shops we were dealing with. I have found that if we do not have full control of the process things go wrong. That is why we limit the outsiders that we deal with. I fully understand LN,s decision to limit the headaches.
