M96 3.6 Motor Blown

I few days ago my 2002 996 engine broke. It is the 3.6 M96 normally aspirated engine with 91K miles. Until now this has been a dream car. Usual wearable parts have been changed otherwise it has been good for 40K miles. Only exception was a water pump and leaky power stearing but those things happen. I have kept the car well maintained and serviced and never raced. My engine light went on, but no noticable difference in the car it was driving normally. I figured it was probably gas gap or oil cap or emissions, I called my mechanic and was on the way to stop by and have him check the code. He did not think I needed to tow it. Within a mile I had a sudden loss of torque and heard a bad rattle as the engine idled. I coasted to a stop. On inspection he said I need a new engine, most likely the IMS bearing is gone. On further research, it is more likely it is one or both cam chains (not sure I got the details right) that have broken. Either way the entire engine needs to come apart. Please can anyone with knowledge on this problem help, this is a major repair half the value of the car. Also if anyone has a 3.6 watercool engine for sale, or wants to buy my engine as-is, let me know. I like the car very much and am not keen to part, but unless I can find a solution less costly than a dealer supplied Porsche remanufactured engine, I might have to. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

I find it unlikely that an IMS issue would throw a check engine light prior to failure. Any other information your mechanic shared with you?

Sorry to hear about the motor. Was the CEL solid or blinking?

oh man.... so sorry to hear this. Please keep us updated on what the cause of the blown motor may be. Will keep any eye on a new engine for you.

Your motor is not worth much anymore. Rebuilding is alot more expensive than replacing (at this point), There are not many 3.6's "hanging around" as the need exceeds the supply. Sorry man, its a tough pill to swallow.

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Check engine lite was solid. It seemed benign I thought just emissions. But I keep this car well maintained so the next morning I called my guy but it broke before I got to him I was on the way there. I would have had him check it anyway just to be cautious. If I had felt anything amiss after that light went on I would have shut it down immediately, so it went very suddenly (other than the light warning).

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I spoke to another mechanic specializing in watercool rebuilds. My mechanic has tons of aircool experience but only seen two broken watercools, one of the mine. The other porsche took away before he could fully diagnose. The specialist felt it was more likelly a broken cam chain that either snapped spontaneously or was damaged when a nearby oil pump shattered. That is what he said he sees a lot besides IMS. He said for IMS I might hear a whistle or whine. I don't recall him saying something about it would not throw a CEL but he was interested in the type of light and exact sequence so that might have been part of it.

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My concern with Porsche remanufactured engine is that it will come with all the same problems again. Apparently they just use the same original parts from that year. You only get a 24K mile 2 yr warranty. Any opinions on some of the rebuild specialists out there on the internet space?

Where are you located?

Bay Area, Northern California.

wel the new motor has the "latest" parts which also means the IMS bearing is completely un-servicable but the block and other parts are as good as any newer M96 ever was. - If it were my money and I was choosing between replace and rebuild...... hmmmm I think replace and live with it. Rebuilding is a can of worms and until you are "in there" the true cost is not known. Might get a way with heads and chains... might end up tossing the entire block out and starting anew...search IMS on the Boxster forum, there is a thread started by Jake Raby that is pretty scary looking pics here is a LINK

Real tough experience with your car going like that. I could of sworn Pelican last month had some engines for cheap but I don't see them now. Could try suncoast. http://www.suncoastparts.com/category/996Mech.html I'm sure everybody feels for you. Everyone can do their worries about the engine going but when it does happen it really sucks. At 114k miles I'll still let it rip and I hope that keeps the engine stress free. I kind of look at it like relieving the stress in a rifle barrel blank. You gott bang it some good ones to keep the metal from biting you later on. Strange but true.

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So sorry. CEL may have been unrelated but it may have been a cam timing error or misfire error or something related. You'll never know. Don't kick yourself though. Many would have done the same. Recently there have been some reports of Porsche goodwillling low miles engines that suffer some kind of failure out of warranty. What my service manager sources tell me is generally Porsche will want a work order signed with the cost of a teardown as the estimate. This can be $2K. Porsche makes no guarantee it will goodwill the engine. Some agree but more than one owner has balked -- understandably so -- and taken the car away. If Porsche does it probably depends upon what the teardown finds. Perhaps the failure has to be something Porsche has at least internally recognized as something that should be dealt with with a goodwill engine. Not sure what I'd do in your case. The engine has 91K miles and even though you have taken care of it and have not abused it the chances are iffy, if that. But I may be wrong. You might talk to your favorite Porsche service manager, pay him a visit, and in person and in a non-comfrontional manner run the circumstances of the car's engine failure by him and ask him what he suggests. I have to tell you though were I in your shoes I don't know what I'd do if I was told pay maybe $2K just to find out Porsche won't goodwill or even partially good will the engine. Now it may be that you can get some promise that even if Porsche offers no goodwill the $2K or whatever the actual cost is of the teardown will be applied to the cost of installing a factory sourced engine by the dealer. Since you like the car and know its condition having a factory sourced engine gets the car back on the road in short order, with little risk. The new engine and installation labor are warrantied. And you might be able to negotiate a lower price. If the 1st dealer doesn't seem inclined to give you a price break call around. Some have reported saving several thousand dollars over what one dealer quoted. You need to take your time and don't try to rush this. Expect the talking portion to take several weeks or so, but once you've given the go-ahead the engine R&R goes pretty quickly. Unlikely the original engine rebuildable. Porsche techs now teardown an engine to ascertain its rebuildabilty condition for cars under warranty, but if you have to pay for this then find out the engine not rebuildable, ouch. The engine as it sits may be worth something towards a core charge though I do not have any hard info on this, what kind of an engine satisfies a core charge. You are in the bay area? Give Rector Porsche in Burlngame a visit. Or Stead Porsche in Walnut Creek. I favor Livermore Porsche cause I live near by the dealer and it is convenient and of course provides excellent service. John is the service manager there. Sincerely, Macster.

I have an intro to the service manager at Carlsen Porsche. The first discussion was work order for 800 to take out the transmission to verify the problem. He will quote me the full replace upfront the 800 will go to that. They don't seem to rebuild they send it back to P. Good tip though to call around, I will try Livermore and get some quotes. I am surprised nobody in the bay area or sac area has started a watercool rebuild effort. T

I'm so sorry to hear what happened to your car. The same thing happened to me here just a little while back (see Not another IMS issue again). My light only came on to tell me that my oil pressure was low. Sure enough, it was. I was looking at ~1-2 bar pressure level when normally it should be around 4-5 bar. Had the car towed 200 miles to the dealer and got a call from them a couple of days later saying my shaft bearing seized and I would need a new engine! And I was ~ 1 1/2 - 2 months out of warranty. After a week the dealer called back and said Porsche would replace the engine for me if I paid for labour. Hm, does this sound like a good deal? YES!!!!!!!! Now I'm about 800 miles with my new engine and still in the process of breaking it in. I've heard conflicting input regarding when to stop babying the engine, rev levels and so on so I'm not entirely sure how I should continue. Although I do have to say that I'm finding it difficult to stay below 4200 rpms!!! Talk to the dealer and see what can be done. I'm TRULY feeling for you and do pray that this situation will resolve itself for the best ASAP. Keep us informed!

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Why would you be breaking in the engine, all the engines that porsche build are completely broken in at the factory. The reason they tell you to keep the new car under 4200 rpm is to break in the transmission. I too had a complete failure around 4 months ago while tracking my car, same thing oil pressure and then boom, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZqgyVpSuxc and no we didn't plan on it that day, it just happened we were doing some filming. I had a new engine put in the car and was on the track again the following weekend. There is no baby in time for a new engine, only transmission Cheers Sean

Sorry to hear about your engine... I also had a complete engine failure on the track, in my case it was an intermix issue, and the engine went BOOM with a huge cloud of grey white smoke. All the idiot lights came on and the engine was finished. After i got over the intial shock, i promptly ordered a new motor, and was back driving 2 weeks later. Yes it was expensive, but a porsche without an engine is nothing.... The longer you think about it the worse it gets, its unfortunate but you need to turn the page... good luck

These failures are likely to continue. This is exactly why I sold a 996 3 months after I bought it and bought a 993. The 993 has twice the miles on it but I don,t feel the need for an extended warranty and don,t cross my fingers and toes every time I start it.

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Warranty on my 3.4 was two years/unlimited miles. They have upgraded quite a few things on the 3.4 and the 3.6 which is why the reman/new engine is a surer way of getting an engine which will last a long time. So far, my almost 3 year old 3.4 has held up extremely well with 100% track/racing for 8,000 miles. I did add the x51 Oil Pan otherwise everything else is stock. $8,200 from the Dealer Jan 2008.

Unfortunatly they are more than twice that now

Hopefully that 993 does not fail. The cost of a total rebuild on a 993 is about twice that of a 996.

Doug, I was about to quote the same thing of an engine rebuild on a 993 being twice as much as replacing a 996 engine... Talking to my mechanic 993 are not bullit-proof either,,,, It comes down to understanding ownership costs of older Porsche's

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moreso than the 3.4l?

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I was told by the dealer to break the motor in. I have a new engine number which is now attached to this car. I was informed to keep revs below 4200 rpm NOT for the tranny but for the engine. Also to make sure not to lug the engine and try replacing the oil after ~1000 miles. Later, after ~2000 miles to then increase rev range and bring it up to 6-6500 rpms as the amount of driving with this engine increases.

Being a retired licensed mechanic in Ontario, with lots of 911 experience I am aware the 993 engine is not indestructable and can be very costly to rebuild. They seldom fail in a fashion which renders them unrebuildable though. Back in the 70s I often saw cars drive in with the cam chains slapping because of failed tensioners but they were often repaired without removing the engine.They will also run with several broken studs. Notice Porsche still uses the air cooled bottom end as a basis for the turbo motors not the m96. Porsche improved all their engines over time but things like improved chain tensioners , better cylinder/head studs and stronger/long life cam belts can be easily backdated into earlier engines. The m96 has been no doubt improved over it,s production run also so IMS bearings are better and intermix from head cracks and cyl slip are less frequent. It appears though that these updates are only available by replacing the complete motor and the cost of that has more than doubled in the last year or so. Too bad Porsche has chosen not to support these engines the way they used to. They appear to have built a timebomb engine with a fuse of unknown length which may or may not outlast the rest of the car.When or if it fails it gives little warning.The engine is the heart of the car and this heart disease is at the root of the 996s fairly rapid depreciation.

Actually the 996 depreciation at this point in time compares rather favorably to other cars, and most previous Porsches, with the exception of the 993 -I think that's mostly due to the nostalgia attached to "the last air cooled Porsche" than anything else, but hey that's just one more opinion.

Still the cost of a total rebuild on a 993 engine (based on a rebuild able core) is more than the cost of a reman M96 engine even without the core.

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Flat Six Innovations for the M96. Had a 996 Turbo suffer this fate a little while back at Summit. Rather spectacular failure... and a GT1 block to boot. I'm not up to snuff on the cost of re-manufactured 996 engines from Porsche, but if the gentleman's cost, above, of around $8K is indicative of current pricing, that's about what a quality 993 top end should cost. A "complete" rebuild (bottom end) is rarely necessary unless catastrophic engine failure has occurred - in which case costs get out of control very quickly. As in all cases, the cost of labor is the killer.

looks like another newbe hit n run

I think 3.4's remans are up to $14K-$16K. The 3.6 is significantly less, more in the $8K-$12K range. And Jake Raby can do a 4.0 build out of a M96 for abut $21K. All of which is still a lot less than a total rebuild of a 993 engine.

993 engine's are easily rebuilt, and there are sooo many sources to choose parts from. That being said, they easily go over 200k without a rebuild..

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Take what he said as the truth. Bearings need to be seasoned. No matter what guru's that say rev the frick out of the engine say to seat the rings is the way. Here's why. You can set the piston rings any time you want to. Seasoning the bearings on the cranks and piston connectors has to be done before higher revs. The bearing start out soft. After many heat cycles the bearings harden. You can do the mileage requirement and say the engine is broken in but the best way is to do moderate lengths of drives to assure heat cycles are applied. The reason for not lugging the engine I hope is evident with the fact of the bearings being softer when new. Lugging can deform them when soft giving rise to failures at a sooner date than if broken in properly. When you are allowed to go to higher revs its good to do so since the higher the revs the higher the piston will travel to clean up the cyclinder walls. Not by much but the travel is a little higher. Best to break the cyclinder walls in. The fast hard driving break in is good for race engines since they get torn down to check for wear and damage. Race teams replace rings and bearing to help prevent problems. Engine going boom no worky good joe.

All engines are easily rebuilt, all you need is money. Not every 993 makes it over 200k, doing a nationwide price agnostic search of the 993 on autotrader.com I see just seven cars over 100k miles, only two with more than 111k, out of hundreds of cars listed. Same search returns twenty-four 996s, with the majority of them well over 110k miles, out of a pool of roughly 3.5x the size of total advertised cars. To me, despite everything posted here and elsewhere online, the numbers compare quite naturally, even overlooking the fact that the 993 has had an extra half decade or so to accumulate the miles, but then the owners didn't drive them as much I suppose. 6 in one basket, half a dozen in the other. I like them both, and think a lot of the differences in durability may lie in people's minds... The older cars do feel like they're buttoned together better... using more buttons, because they were. The 996 is lighter, stiffer, faster, has better A/C, etc. but has frameless windows with a remote trunk release, and if you want to rebuild the engine, much like the 944/928, you may need to get creative with the block/bottom end more than anything.

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I checked your post and you have an 04 with about 31K miles. It must be about 2years out of warranty ... was it dealer serviced all along? Did you get your hands on the broken IMS, if so please contact me by email. My understanding from P is they take these factors into account when deciding to give you "goodwill" .... consider yourself lucky. The latest chapter of this saga is that my indy guy now has 4 watercools lined up for IMS replacement, in response to the Excellence magazine article. That has really touched off storm. Just today he got a shipment of LN Engineering parts and the tool. I will keep you updated on how he likes them after installation. By the way, one thing I learned is that sudden loss of large amounts of oil is either the seal going or the bearing fit getting loose in the race through one of several mechanisms. I think it is the "better" way to fail because you notice it quickly and most people will not try to drive with low oil pressure. You will never know if it was rebuildable, only the big P has that secret.... (Still no ill will to P :-)

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Yes all P engines have gone up a lot recently. They charge a little less for 3.4 but for 3.6 it is up to 18K or so. As for reman being better, all the M96 (through first half 05 production) have bad IMS, although the later ones are less bad. I don't know about M97 but eventually I believe after a few years of M97 the IMS was designed out. If I were to get a P reman I would _definitely_ put in a new IMS one month before the P warranty expires. IMHO

I just got a quote for the total reman 3.6 installed, tested and 2 yr unlimited miles warranty. I believe the part alone is 16-18K now, although I have been advised to call around so I will post some recent prices once I have checked. My indy guy says they have gone up a lot. I also heard P will stop selling them by year end. Does anyone have direct rebuilt experience with MP Parts out of Rancho Cordova, California (about 30 miles east of Sacramento on i80)?

Wow $18k for a reman... At that price you could get a used 996 and have the ims changed for another $2k and then sell ur car as a roller for $12k that way you'd be out $8k rather than $18k... Hope it works out..

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HAHA... Yeah, this story just keeps getting more and more ridiculous...

Don't know much about the seller, but this looks like a WAY less expensive option.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...ts_Accessories and http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...ts_Accessories

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For your clarification, the 911/boxster had an intermediate shaft until the new 9A1 engine design was released for the 2009 direct injection engines. So there are a lot of P cars out there with intermediate shafts and bearings. Also, many folks have CPO warranties on these newer 996s so Porsche will need to supply engines for quite some time to come.

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My 993 has a remote trunk release, it's called a "handle" ?

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Did you find out why your engine exploded? Was it the IMS or something else?

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As stated, I am not familiar with the current cost of an M96 replacement. However, if someone has told you that $21,000 for a 4.0L M96 build "is still a lot less than a total rebuild of a 993 engine," I might suggest a second opinion. If one is spending "a lot more" than $21,000 to rebuild an M64-based motor, that motor's lifespan is measured in hours, not miles, the fan housing has been tastefully painted with "RSR" script - or both.

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Yes I've looked at this. They don't actually have an engine for sale. (There is a shortage of M96 engines for obvious reasons). You have to send them your car and have them rebuild it .... wait in a long line.

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The story is rediculous in some ways, but 100% true. I've checked several sources already, the remans recently went up in price severely. Any suggestions for quality rebuilders, especially on the west coast, please let me know (I've already spoken to flat6)

It is official. The P reman M96 3.6 engine for my specific vin# (2002) is 17.8K I checked several dealers as suggested. Add about 3.5K if you don't give them your broken core in exchange. Anyone that has a better price that they can actually get delivered (anywhere in the US) let me know and I'll ship it. Did someone say rediculous? :-)

Isn't Jake's 3.8L around $18K? Yes a new 3.6 reman is ridiculous.

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Around 21K installed. But that's an upgraded engine, adding 30-40 hp with a lot of changes over the stock P engine that should make it stronger, not just the IMS.

This seams interesting, ships world wide. http://london.craigslist.co.uk/pts/1905361962.html

^ you will need a 3.8 DME and tuning. Dunno what other parts will you be missing coming from a 3.4 or a 3.6.

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I pinged them to see if they had it. UK may be a bit far several complications, but it would be nice if it worked. If anyone sees a US 3.6 for sell let me know. I've called a bunch of places that may have one and the wreckers. Thanks Rennlisters for all the great tips! The saga continues. Given the reman & exchange through P is over 2/3 the value of the car, I am forced to go the rebuild route. I can get more than the difference for a roller I already had offers. My latest find is Mat Lowrance's shop Rennsport in Reno, NV. For some reason there are not a lot of street watercool rebuild specialists in the Bay Area. Mostly aircool classics and racer builders. Anyone have experience with him? He is well known I am told. It's only about 4 hrs away for me so I'll drive it back and I have a place to stay in Tahoe.

Wow! So Porsche has doubled the price of the remans. A year ago the price of the 3.6 was $2,000-$3,000 less than the 3.4. And about the same time there was a special on the 3.6's for about $8,500. At this rate the engines are going to be more than the early cars are worth. Now maybe the costs for the warranties is sounding more reasonable. But I think this is just making me think I should do the LN bearing upgrade sooner. The IMS failure is one of the few failures that can completely destroy the engine. By the way in the Sept. 2010 issue of Excellence Flat6 has an add that quotes Boxster/Cayman 3.6 and 3.8 big bores, 350+ HP from $16,995. 996/997 3.6 and 3.8 big bores with up to 420 HP from $17,995 and M96 based 4 liter engines from $20,499.

Well this is getting a bit silly. Motor Meister will pick up your motor or whole car the same day if you'd like, and an entire rebuild at a cost of $6k, and you say you don't want to go with them because the wait is too long? I don't know what their cost of supplying you with an engine is, but I'm inclined to think that even if nothing was salvageable from your motor, it'd be below $10k. Also, there's a good core on eBay for $1600, might be worth picking up for you. If you're actually looking for a complete engine, here's another option: J and V Auto Parts in Brooklyn NY is asking $11k for a 30k mile motor out of a 2004 model. Their number is: [phone removed]. I'm sure you can recoup some of that by selling your motor for parts as well. All Automotive Imports in Houston Texas also has a motor, though they just want an offer on it -I've seen them go as low as $4k used. Their number is: [phone removed]. If a meteor struck my 3.6 and not even a spark plug was salvageable out of it, I still wouldn't expect to spend even $8k to put another engine in my car, calm down there with the numbers guys... I'm almost going to make sure you get this done for under $10k out of principle...

Yup, everything Dharn55 says is accurate. The prices have doulbe recently. The bad part for me is that I think in California the low prices of the reman exchange program and the relative mix of the age and miles on the 996 fleet and P policy for goodwill has created light demand for watercool rebuilds, until now. I found only two guys that claimed to have done maybe 300 watercool rebuilds between them, and those are unverified claims. The rest are in the 5-20 range. Many, like my indy tech, don't have the tools and setup to do lots of this. As the fleet ages though I expect there will be more demand. As I already said in the post, the LN Engineering ceramic IMS is IMHO a must-do, especially for your 2000. If your clutch has over 60K miles, then I would just replace both the clutch and IMS tomorrow, seriously. If you have a young clutch, then you can debate on this forum with others the merits of shelling the 1500 for the IMS proactively (500 for the part). Just be aware of the potential of serious damage resulting in an expensive rebuild or worse needing a new block ($8K now). I am going to blog this whole thing as I go, I am getting set up for a bore scope next week and if that looks reasonable we go for the teardown and inspect. At that point I'll know the damage, and so will you!

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Thanks for that info! Will call those. Rennlisters strike again, I have got a lot of great info hear already. Motormeister said they have approx 91 cars lined up, wait time 3-4 months. But please check with them directly. The numbers are real though, that is for P reman engines. So far I have not talked to anyone that has any kind of rebuild or used availlable.

91 customers are waiting in line to get a remanufactured engine !!! nooooooo ! That's insane.

Why have they doubled?

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Fortunately, I did get an extended warranty when I got the car. I never really thought about it especially, it just seemed to be the right thing to do. And the car has been serviced by the dealer here in Canada since I got her. As an aside, I have not found ANY problems with Canadian dealers servicing US cars. I heard horror stories from others guys before but, since my time anyway, no problem.

Did you check with lapd? http://www.911pcar.com/ I agree with others that you could sell your 'roller' and buy a whole new car for a lot less hassle than getting a new motor. LAPD buys rollers.

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To be precise, that is 91 waiting in line for a rebuild of their own core. I don't know if P has 91 remans left anywhere. Rumor is they terminate the program at the end of this year for the M96. As the fleet ages and the IMS all fail, I predict an explosion in the demand for rebuild since there will not be enough spare cores around.

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I checked their site they have a number of engines but no 3.6. I also checked ebay and craigslist nationwide. There are all sorts of engines but no 3.6 or 3.8.

You'd be amazed at the reputation of MotorMeister -- steer clear of them at all costs! Search the web, you'll be amazed at the stories.

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Not trying to be a pessimist but it sounds like an advertisement for LN Engineering. You registered in Aug 2010 and started a post with, what seemed like, no knowledge of your possible problem. Now your frightening everyone with the cost of a new replacement engine & praising LN Engineering citing its cost and need to avoid "serious damage." Next your advising on clutch replacement with the IMS change when you clearly did not have very much mechanical knowledge in your first post. Lastly you go on to talk about how you're going to start a blog about it which I'm sure will be filled with LN Engineering advertising.

Oh boy. Perhaps he is a quick learner? Never a picture of his car or the current roller he possesses though...

I'm not sure where some of the information guys are quoting is coming from, but I've just been shopping for a 3.4L for my race car, and you can get a 3.4 for just over $13k (that is net of the core charge). I don't know what the price difference is on the 3.6L engines. I would contact SunCoast. They have very good prices on engines.

This entire post has gone off the rails!! I am quite disenchanted with wide variance of solutions and prices, when we don't actually know the cause of the failure. This post is going to scare the sh*t out so many owners without any engine problems, under the premise that every M96 is will fail, and furthermore M96 engines will become impossible to find.. I do not believe this to be true.. Any engine failure is unfortunate, and spending over $20k to repair is even more unfortunate.. PS. Is this post an infomercial for LN ?????

On any day there are 2 or 3 threads running about complete engine failures of m96 based cars . I feel lucky that I got out of my 996 when I did.

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I wish I still had my '99 Cab, no worries with my new motor that Porsche goodwilled me about 10k miles ago. I feel that Porsche should cover any motor related failure to the original owner of the car that is not caused by neglect or abuse, so long as the car is properly serviced and maintained. Any modern well maintained and serviced motor should last 200k miles without catistrophic failure. Rings, valve guides, gaskets and seals may need to be replaced, but the rods, crank and cams and their related bearings should go the distance. Accessories like water pump, starter and alternator will need replacement though. For some reason these aren't made to last.

Of course on any given day there are tens of thousands of drivers with M97/97 engines out driving without any problems.

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Posting a picture of his 996 really doesnt mean anything. Now lets hear what shop has his 996 (profile doesnt reveal his location) and maybe an ambitious Rennlister will follow up on the status of the repair. Read through the OP's posts in this thread and it will show an increasing use of scare tactics (engines constantly failing with 90 plus 996s lining up at Motormeister and the costs of engines reaching the value of 996s) and further advertising for L&N Engineering.

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+1 I especially like this recent statement from the OP "As the fleet ages and the IMS all fail". If this post is indeed genuine then the OP has gained quite a bit of mechanical knowledge since his first several posts when he himself admitted to not having much understanding of these engines. He goes from being a "green"(pun intended) owner in terms of mechanical knowledge to stating that all of these engines will experience IMS failures in mere days. Greenbe - please post some concrete proof of your engine failure i.e. shop invoices etc.

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I am new to Rennlist absolutely. I did some searches about 5 years ago and I wish now that I had spent more time learning about 911 details. I haven't had time to work on pictures since I have my hands full trying to find a new engine. The car is located in Mountain View CA and is Seal grey on grey 2002 C2 Cab 6 speed with 91K miles. The car is registered in my name. I haven't yet picked the shop, I am waiting on availability and scheduling from the two best candidates. Everyone on this forum has been real helpful on suggesting solutions to the problem, and I have followed up on all of them. So far I have only found one place with a rebuilt motor ready and available that matches my car. I've probably called about 10 nationwide. Only now does this thread turn negative that there is some conspiracy. Or course I don't have anything to do with LN Engineering if you go to the beginning of the post you will see it was suggested along the way by many people I talked to in researching. The problems with IMS are well documented in the Excellence magazine articles which people can read and form their own opinion. I am saying what I would do if I have to do it again, and that is my opinion. If you know of another bearing alternative that is not LN Eng then please post it and let people decide on their own. You cannot accuse me of claiming to be an expert if I never claimed that. If you have some expertise and can tell us why LN Eng is not good please do and save me a second blown IMS. If you have any statistics on the number of IMS failures please let us know, I think everyone wants to know that.

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The price quotes for P reman with 2yr unlimited miles warranty came from Carlsen Porsche and Livermore Porsche. The prices were virtually identical. A lot of people have questioned the high price (I mean live as well as on the forum). What I've been told is P recently raised the price, eveny my tech thought it should be 13K as you say but he checked as well and got the same. Feel free to verify the price, if you find a lower one anywhere in the west I will follow up on it. Thank you for the constructive SunCoast tip I just called them and left a message they were busy.

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I called SunCoast out of curiosity and the price for a 3.6 is $18K minus the core which is $3.1K and installation is about $1K - so it's about $16K total which is much better than what I have heard about the prices in Canada - $27K They also confirmed that they have done about a copule replacements of the IMS bearing using the LN one which is surprising for a porsche dealer and he told me the price was around $2600 Are you sure your engine was fried due to IMS?

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So let me understand this. Your were on your way to your wrench when your engine blew on your 996. You towed your 996 to your wrench, had him diagnose the "blown" engine and then had your 996 towed back to your house? Doesn't make a lot of sense but I guess you could post a diagnosis break-down from your wrench showing the "blown" engine on the letterhead of the wrench that performed the diagnosis. "My engine light went on, but no noticable difference in the car it was driving normally. I figured it was probably gas gap or oil cap or emissions, I called my mechanic and was on the way to stop by and have him check the code. He did not think I needed to tow it. Within a mile I had a sudden loss of torque and heard a bad rattle as the engine idled. I coasted to a stop. On inspection he said I need a new engine, most likely the IMS bearing is gone. On further research, it is more likely it is one or both cam chains (not sure I got the details right) that have broken. Either way the entire engine needs to come apart." If I'm not mistaken by your post below, your aircooled wrench has 4 watercooled cars waiting for the IMS L&N Engineering bearings waiting for installation. Easy enough to verify both your diagnosis & the L&N bearing installation if you would provide the name of your wrench. "The latest chapter of this saga is that my indy guy now has 4 watercools lined up for IMS replacement, in response to the Excellence magazine article. That has really touched off storm. Just today he got a shipment of LN Engineering parts and the tool. I will keep you updated on how he likes them after installation." And btw, I interpreted your advanced knowledge when I read this statement: "As I already said in the post, the LN Engineering ceramic IMS is IMHO a must-do, especially for your 2000. If your clutch has over 60K miles, then I would just replace both the clutch and IMS tomorrow, seriously. If you have a young clutch, then you can debate on this forum with others the merits of shelling the 1500 for the IMS proactively (500 for the part). Just be aware of the potential of serious damage resulting in an expensive rebuild or worse needing a new block ($8K now). "

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BTW, I have nothing against you but the story you're telling is very insulting to our intelligence levels. You should have at least put in the time to register 6mos or so before and built up your post count to lend credibility to your story. Also next time take it a little slower on the L&N bearing theme. You peppered the name much too often. Take the time to slowly ask questions about alternatives. That way someone else mentions the bearing rather than you. Its simple spam marketing 101.

How about installing a 997 engine?

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Damit.....where is the LIKE button!

I guess I'm gullible, but I believe his story. I know that when I'm looking to buy something or something needs to be fixed, I wind up learning a lot about that subject. (usually more than I ever wanted to know). Just my 3 cents (adjusted for inflation)

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Do you know if that is possible? Might be interesting, depending on the cost.

Wow, the tone of this thread seems to be getting pretty heavy. I think I was the one who said the cost of the engine seems to be fast approaching the market value of the cars. I also said I think the LN bearing is a good upgrade. And I said that there are tens of thousands of M96/97 owners out there driving trouble free. I don't really think the original poster is just shilling for LN. Lets lighten up guys, everyone is entitle to an opinion. I still think this forum is a great place to gripe and express our frustration when we have a problem, and an even greater place to exchange opinions, ideas, information and knowledge.

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+10

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Thank you, I was waiting for someone else to clarify I few things. And I will take your advice and lighten up and I am not going to respond further to attacks. But before I begin my moritorium I want to say this: There already have been disparaging remarks about two vendors in this one thread (I ignored the first). I may be a newbie to this forum but not to the internet. It is a pretty heavy accusation to tarnish the reputation of a business (LN Eng) by claiming they paid me to make up a story about a blown engine with no substantiation. If the owners of rennlist.com feel I am violating any of their policies they can contact me (they have my information) and I am happy to provide them my CA registration info, shop information, invoices and whatever they want to satisfy themselves I am legit and have no connection to LN Eng. If they are not satisfied they can delete my account. As long as my account is valid it is obvious that has not happened. And on that note, can we talk about my blown engine? The current status is I am waiting to hear back from two specialist shops to schedule me for a fiber-optic bore scope hopefully mid next week (they are pretty fully booked at this moment). Based on that they will tear apart the engine and I hope to post pictures of the damage. Keeping fingers crossed it is easily rebuildable. I have decided to invest in the tear-down and take a chance I will get off lightly.

holy crap... This thread went to the ****ter... Good luck with yoru engine.... No one paid this guy. He followed the same path I did when I bought my 996.. however he followed it on the death of his 996... Everything you read, EVEN ON THIS BOARD takes you to the LNE upgrade as a fantastic and must do idea. I feel he had no ill will here and just determined exactly what I did when I also did my research. You guys go off the deep end once in a while... The LNE upgrade? how much do you REALLY think they are making on it? Enough to work this hard at selling a few more? They need no more push.. Its ALL OVER THE INTERNET, In FRAKING MAGAZINES... They dont need to pay anybody any more promotional money.. Think about what you just accused this guy of... You are being silly-stupid

+1.... lets not forget that the LNE upgrade is something new and w/o any history, yes its beefier but only time will tell. Maybe there is something else at play here than can take down the upgrade.... Also, remember that most of the pulled OEM IMS has been looking good so... people do think that there are some scare tactics involved. With this said... I plan to upgrade, hopefully before my engine blows.

I've wondered about that too, but I have nothing to go on. I find it hard to believe that P would have messed up fundamentally the design of a bearing. Since the dawn of the industrial age people have been designing these things by now we should know how. It could be some kind of vibration or other effect that is the root cause that is much harder to characterize/model. How would anyone know that, even P?

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Im sure they know.... that is why they got rid of the IMS in the 997.2 model.... it only took 10 years of evolution. Lets see, Im hearing sludge problems in the heads already....

Holy conspiracy theory batman! I owned a 1991 C2...sold due to new born 4 years ago...and mom "let me" buy a replacement just 2 months ago. I, without ever hearing/reading a word about 996 failures, purchased a 2004 996 with 69000 miles on it. I then joined rennlist and was horrified! and in just weeks (like the original poster of this thread) was an "expert" on all things 996 and mods like the LN bearing. I've fixed broken sunroof buttons, adjusted jammed front bonnet latches, installed a cool built in DIY garage door opener button, changed the oil, cleaned the MAF...the list really does go on. From zero 996 knowledge to a ton of hands on in just weeks. GREAT resource this board...thank you! I know first hand that when something breaks or has issues, (cars, dishwashers, pool filters...lol) the internet is a great place to go from zero knowledge to expert in 60 seconds flat. So give the guy a break and the benifit of the doubt...some support during a lousy time. Now...I've given you the benefit of the doubt fellow "newbe"... be VERY affraid if you turn out to be a spam salesman!...just kidding ;-) By the way...I now have 72000 on my 996 Aero!...i've put 3000 miles on it in just short of 2 months. I've relaxed, and become one with thae car...lol and have no fear or anxiety about the reliabilty. She feels strong and solid, I know her operating norms/noises/feel and drive it like a bat-out-of-hell and she loves it!

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Whoa, whoa, whoa... slow down, there. MM doesn't have 91 customers in line. They have 91 pending lawsuits in line. See below.

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Agreed, this board has been a great resource.

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Today I got in touch with SunCoast after only voicemail yesterday. For the 2002 6-spd 3.6 they quoted me 17.8K minus 3.1K on acceptance of the core net price 14.7K shipped out of state for a P reman with 2 yr unlimited miles warranty. They have several in stock, which may be the reason there prices are lower, hard to know.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Strasse Auto (or Auto Strasse) in Costa Mesa, Ca.[phone removed]). They reman their own motors and have a great reputation incuding several Rennlisters including me. I've been racing one of their stock 3.4 remans for over a year now about 65 hours without incident. I don't know their current pricing but it's usually about half of Porsches. Comes with 1 year warranty. Anyone else care to comment on Auto Strasse?

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Bingo. Any one care to second the recommendation?

Let me add that all the Spec Boxster's built by Speed Gallery in Studio City, Ca. have his motors. That's something like 20 cars over the past 2 years with 1 failure and that failed almost immediately. They replaced it of course.... Owner's name is Robert, please let us all know what he's charging these days. I'll probably want/need a refresh at the end of this season.....

I just don't understand why choose any other option, when LNE is the only one that has ceramic coated bearings, which are supposed to be 5x stronger, and perhaps never break.

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I have not heard of any alternative solution for upgrading the IMS bearing. If anyone knows of one please post it. Unless there is a known good P stock bearing, but nobody has suggested that and how do you know if it is the right one. There will be more on the topic of bearings later on this thread, I am gathering more information. Check back in a week.

You are basically repeating what I just typed: the LNE is the only ceramic coated bearing I know of, and the OEM is five times weaker, at least according to LN's data. According to LNE, the technology was not readily available for mass marketing, at least not for MY 2002. The bearings for the 996 were made in Brazil, and sealed with grease. However, mechanics notice during oil changes that the grease comes out- now you have a sealed bearing with no grease, and the regular engine oil cannot get in. Some people actually remove the seal. The result is overheating and eventually failure. We have not yet heard of a LNE ceramic coated bearing failure- only time will tell.

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+10, Kyle I couldn't of said it better myself!

As fantastic as LNE possibly is we should not forget that engines fail for multitude of other reasons not only due to the IMS bearing. Transmissions are not the best in 996-es either (mine failed at 72k km), cooling systems (mine needed repairs at ca.60k km) etc. The only things giving the true peace of mind (and, in my case, substancial financial savings) is either factory or aftermarket warranty. Why spend over $1000 on one isolated potential problem and STILL remain vulnerable in other areas?? Can anybody give a valid reason?

~$1500 per year for warranties is what I've heard here. I'm currently looking and have been turned down by 3 companies so far for my 2000 C2 Tip with 37k miles. They say "we don't have a policy for your vehicle", but I'm still waiting for a few call-backs. So $4500 for three years, and then what? Get another 3 for another $4500? Or spend 3 grand to upgrade several key areas and put the rest away for a rainy day. I'm not preaching, I'm playing devil's advocate. My point is there is no automatic decision and you can't fault anyone for the path they choose. My car is going under the knife on Monday for the IMS, RMS, X51 Oil pan, and Low Temp Thermostat. If I can find a reasonable warranty, I'll get that as well.

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Why not try the Renegade Hybrid (Las Vegas) LS1 V8 Vette all aluminum motor, not nearly as expensive as the 996 or 997 motor & its suppose to be a good bit lighter & definitely more hp, change the plugs in 30 minutes. I've heard its sacreligious to do it to the older air-cooled Porsches but it shouldn't bother the purists as much if its a 996! Good Luck on whatever you do.

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I thought about a warranty around 80k miles, I don't remember the details but it was not widely available and I thought the car was one of the more reliable I had owned, given the high miles I was putting on it. Anyone else got a warranty for high miles / long age? Also I heard something interesting today about the X51 Oil pan. But rather than repeat it, can anyone explain the theory of it and direct experience?

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Did you buy your car new? All your posts are just problems about the issues with your car. Did you get a PPI if bought used? Sounds like you bought someone's track bitch.

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Your question assumes that every mode of failure is equally probable, equally disastrous and equally expensive. This is very obviously not the case. The failure of an intermediate shaft or its bearing can result in the complete destruction of the engine, and this risk can be diminished for about 10% of the cost of repairing the failure. That's easy math, in my opinion. Whereas, most other possible modes of failure are reparable if they happen, which changes the math. The 'insurance policy' is as or more costly relative to the repair cost, so it's more like you're paying it forward rather than protecting yourself. With respect, there are people out there who think that these engines are time bombs in every possible way. They think this because don't know very much about engines, and/or about the history of this one (I just love it when they rhyme off the litany of porous blocks, d-chunks, slipped sleeves, on and on...). To me, rationally, the one problem worth preventing is IMS failure. The rest was either long since solved, or is just part of the bargain with a high performance motor. People forget that the failure rate for every engine everywhere is 100% by design. From farm tractors to fighter jets, the only way an engine keeps going forever is constant and preventative maintenance.

With the increase in the price of the replacement engines ($8,000 3-4 years ago, now $16,000+ according to some of the posts here) and the fact that they may be discontinued, the price and the availability of the warranties is sure to follow, higher cost and less availability.

It would be nice if someone could post some M96 warranty prices from the last few months and the various starting mileage levels avaialbe and maximums. I agree you are going to want some combination of warranty and preventative maintenance, and the mix is probably going to vary with age and warranty availability/pricing. I never intended to scare anyone into thinking these engines are timebombs. This just happened to me, and I was looking for some help (which I got). As it happened to some others. Nobody seems to know the actual numbers and age distribution of the failures, it could turn out to be still a relatively low %. Whatever happens just drive the car and enjoy it and don't worry so much. It is still the best car I ever owned. Get out there and put some cross-country miles on it. At least I enjoyed 38K miles worry free.

greeenbe: Did you contact Auto Strasse and if so, did you ask about their IMS bearing?

Yes I did talk to Auto Strasse, I thought they were using LNE for the IMS but I will check again next week.

It's time to stir the pot on this thread again :-) An interesting thing happened while I was talking to various people trying to find a solution. Two people I spoke to live independently said that the problem is more likely a snapped cam chain than a blown IMS bearing. In neither case did I get the full detail, but something about a tensioner and the tendency to go "on one side first" seemed to be in common. Everyone else blamed the IMS. What is interesting is these two people seemed to have their hands in watercool engines fixing them regularly, with a focus on street cars. Everyone else was either racing focused or was relaying information 2nd hand. One of them went so far as to say the IMS issues were "urban legend" and the only IMS failures he saw was due to poor-care, specifically oil that was completely black and could not flow to the bearing. I don't know what to make of this, but time will tell. As I speak the car is heading to Southern California. If things go according to plan by the end of this week it will be broken down and I will have a root cause. Pictures will probably take another week or two until I get there and claim the bad pieces, which should make good paperweights.

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Well put +1

Good luck sir, with this situation.

Well, the verdict is in. The engine is completely in pieces. I don't have the full writeup and pictures yet, should get those in 1-2 weeks. Based on first verbal information, it looks like the cam chain tensioner to bank 1 (drivers side) siezed up. It was not audible or noticeable. After some time the chain skipped a tooth on the large gear from the IMS damaging that gear (that probably caused the CEL) Then the chain snapped. The "clackity clack" or "marbles" sound was likely the flapping chain. I got a few bent valves but luckily no damage to the cylinders. The IMS bearing is just fine. I need a new IMS (the shaft itself) only because the gears that drive the chain are damaged beyond repair. What is interesting is this is exactly what experienced rebuilder #1 told me right at the beginning of this voyage. I ended up going with rebuilder #2, for other reason, who also guessed it was unlikely to be IMS bearing unless the car was in an abused state. I will have pictures to prove all this, including of course a picture of my pristine IMS bearing. Does anyone know anything about the lineage of chain tensioners? He says at some point P changed the design of the tensioners, but this car has the newer tensioner design (P original). Rebuilder #1 also said it tends to go on one side first ... I never captured enough of the details. But I can see that logically since the direction of drive force on the chain will be with and against gravity depending on which side. It also plays into what rebuilder #3 said which is that the strain on the cam chain is highest at idle since there is the least backpressure on the valves, and yes this is my daily driver and favorite car with a fair amount of stop and go (although at least half my miles have been on long trips). Any information here would be helpful.

So will you get out of this with just a head job +shaft? That's sort of what it's sounding like. Shouldn't be too bad, $3k maybe?

When I pulled the tensioners for the IMS bearing upgrade, 2 of the 3 were badly scored. The crank to IMS (see picture) was the worst one followed by 1-3. 4-6 was in perfect shape, but I replaced all three. I originally put the newest IMS tensioner in, but later put in the old style after reading the tech bulletin about not mixing new and old styles. The tensioners had 105K miles when I replaced them. Rick 99 996C4 87 944S

Great info, Thank you sir.

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That was not offered by anyone. Most seem to want to take it completely apart, thoroughly clean it with an ultrasonic wash in case any bits of metal get in there, and then rebuild it replacing and upgrading various components as necessary. Current estimate is $8K-9K including 1 yr 12K mi warranty. I'd be willing to take the risk given the price detla, but they weren't. I spoke to about 5 people across the country with direct experience in the matter. Only one of them held out a glimmer of hope in the <$3K range, but was not available. So that is theoretical. In this situation, you also have the practical consideration of getting it fixed vs having it sit in a shop while you talk about it forever.

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Can you please provide me a reference to this tech bulletin so I can read it and learn? Excellent information, I second that comment. And again, you are the 3rd person with direct knowledge to mention the tendency of bank 1 (cyl 1-3) tensioner to go, while 4-6 often is fine. I don't know my crank-to-IMS situation at the moment, I will learn all this when I recover the damaged parts and take pictures next weekend. Do you know if you had the "old/original" tensioners or the redesigned ones?

To clarify my last comment, I see you talk about new and old tensioner, but I am not clear how many redesigns there have been on this, 2 or 3, and what you mean by new. Needless to say I am greatly interested in information on this.

the TSP is: 10/00 #1551 New Drive Chain and Seal for Inter. Shaft you can get it if you are a member on RennTech. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...ownload&id=148 Rick 99 996C4 87 944S

Subscribed to see the outcome.....

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The general plan is for me to go down to Southern California next weekend, probably Saturday. I'll go through the list of replaced parts, photograph everything and get a writeup on what happened. I'll collect my car and broken parts. Hopefully within a few days I will get it all posted on here. I'm going to try to make something good of a bad situation, so I might take 3 days and go on some really cool drives and stay over. Any recommendations on some really interesting routes to take and places to stay over? I've been on most of the major highways in Southern California, and the usual Hwy 1 / 101 scenic drives. Looking for something new off the beaten track.

Go up the Eastern side of the Sierras (395). You could stay in Mammoth for a night and continue up and over the Tioga Pass in the morning. Stunning territory all around you especially in late summer. From there you have Yosemite or the gold country of the western sierras.... So who's doing the motor work?...

I have driven Tioga pass, and I agree that is a great drive for a 911. I have not driven all of 395 and been to Mammoth. Are there any side trips I can do from Mammoth? Any other suggestions closer to LA and surrounding areas?

So how was the drive, and are you going to share who do your rebuild?...

Maybe he got snowed in at Tioga?

What an entertaining thread! I've had 3 M96 cars, a 97 986, 2000 996 and currently a 2001 986S. I put a lot of miles on the first two, selling the 97 at 120k, and the 996 around 70k. I never had an engine issue with any of the three but just recently had my Boxster engine rebuilt by flat6 innovations, including all L&N parts, pistons, nickies IMS etc, as part of the 3.6 performance upgrade. I am at 2000 miles on the engine and have a thread in the Boxster forum with a running description of the car's performance. I have taken it easy, under 5k RPM thus far so I have little to share concerning max power, but the car is phenomenal from a seat of the pants perspective. This is no advertisement for L&N or Jake but I am happy to share my experience. My reasoning for putting out the dough is that I love the cars, I want to keep the Boxster for a long time, and I wanted more power. The additional reliability I expect to get from the L&N parts and design enhancement is gravy. For anyone who has an engine failure, or anyone who just wants additional umpf and a hot rod motor I would recommend this option over a factory rebuilt or any other option I know of at this point. I point out though that the Auto Strasse motor mentioned in this thread sounds like a great deal for west coasters for sure. As time goes on I will have more to report on the flat6 upgrade. After 2500 miles I will no longer need to keep it below 5k, and really don't need to now, but for an abundance of caution. My only regret is that I sold my 996 and didn't do the upgrades on it.

Subscribed. Great thread - !

So what ever happened with this?

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Yes I would like to know also.

(wrong thread)

How much could a used 3.6engine with 33000mm goes for? Excellent condition Between 10-15 ?