Can I drive a 911 for 7 years for $44K?

I am sorry that this is a lame question, but I have been teaching for 18 years and still earn in the 40's. I have to be very careful not to get in over my head. That said, I already have a 04 accord (winter beater), 93 civic (200hp, summer car), 94 NSX, and 91 miata (turbo, etc..). The civic is great fun (even better at the track) but a little embarrassing for a 42 year old. So I want a four seater that is gorgeous and phenomenal to drive. Is it even possible to buy and maintain a 996 911 for seven years (figure about 6K miles a year) for a total of $44K? Not including insurance, of course. I can do basic repairs myself and have access to lifts and capable buddies for engine and transaxle removal. What do you think?

My kids are always with me, so I very rarely drive the NSX or miata.

#1. There are no "basic" repairs on a Porsche. #2. A replacement engine is $20,000. #3. Porsche dealers charge $100+ for labor. #4. Your joking, right? I suppose you could, if you give your kids away, dont, eat, and live in a tent. If your a good DIY'er maybe you could. Unfortunately these cars are VERY expensive to own. Buying one is the easy part. Im just kidding about #4 but not #1 thru #3. I too am a public servant so I get where your coming from.

20k for the car then 3k+ per year for maintenance. I'd say yes.

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+1

Sure you can but who did the work on your other hot rodded rides?

It sounds like you are capable and have access to equipment that may be needed, so I'd say YES, absolutely. Never mind what Krazy says, he wrenches on his own car (saves money, very good) but seems to think that the dealer is the only source for any part (not true at all). Many parts are available for significantly less than at the dealer, especially common replacement parts, with equal quality. Tires will very possibly be your biggest expense. Don't plan on needing to buy a replacement engine, it is extremely unlikely that it would need one. Basic maintenance is no different than any other car, an oil change is easier than on your Miata. If it needs something more complex, the beauty of a 996 is that there is most likely a video on how to do it, and for sure help on this forum and others like it. The important part is to look at what's out there and choose carefully. Do a lot of reading up front, ask a lot of questions, and don't be scared off. Quite a few people on here use these as daily drivers. And even more people here do their own work. I don't think that on average they are (or have to be) very expensive to own compared to what you get back....Sure, more than a Civic, but a lot less than a lot of other machinery. I will not perpetuate the myth that you have to be rich to own one, absolutely not the case, especially if you are somewhat handy or perhaps more importantly, have access to others who can help. You only go around once, gotta do what you want as long as you prepare yourself properly.

02+ 911 will run you about 25K and if you get clutch/intermediate shaft replaced for ~$2K tops you're in good shape (~$1K in parts). Access to lift is totally awesome, you'll be able to do more than than 90% of people on this forum. Pics of the NSX?

Go for it and welcomemto the 996 Family. I recently picked up an 04 996. I splurged for a newer one but started off looking for a 99-01. I preferred the engine upgrade on the newer model. You only live once.

I had a '99 Cabriolet for 7 years. I bought it near mint for $47K in '03, sold it near mint in '10 for $30K. I put 30K miles on it, spent about $1K parts (clutch, pp, bearing, coolant tank, MAF sensor, back up light switch), $2k labor for goodwilled motor install, + gas, oil, tires. I've had my Turbo nearly 2 years and the only repair has been a clutch accumulator @ $130, installed it myself. Three oil changes, each costs $50 for oil $6 for filter.

I bought an '02 at a steal - and car is probably still worth more than I paid for it (or at least the same) - so no depreciation. Service costs have been ok for performance car so far (in 2years <$200 for oil (DIY), Plugs/Oil Pressure Sender/transmission fluid, window regulator $1K) Tires+Alignment $1K, Front Brakes $350 DIY. I am budgeting for new clutch, AOS, Water Pump, IMS in near future (say ~$4K) - but if you divide those costs over 4 years - it works out to <$2K/yr - not bad for an exotic. (but a lot more than your civic, miata etc. probably). The risk is a much more expensive engine problem. But then again, if you purchased a new M3 (for example) it would cost you a lot more - just on depreciation.

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Easy enough to find a good 55,000 mile 2002+ 996 for $25K-$30K. That still leaves a very generous part of your budget for scheduled service and the typical replacement items. Even plenty for a clutch when needed and throwing in an IMSB at the same time. Now if you roll it into the dealer every time you have the smallest issue, it can get expensive quickly, but that is true for *any* late model car out of warranty. Not sure about the four seater part... Even if your kids are small enough to fit in the back of a 996 now, the probably won't be in seven years! Same person, same tune, every thread. KK has probably 'unsold' more 996's than just about anybody.

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1) I beg to differ. I've changed my water pump, thermostat, steering wheel, chain tensioners (all three), door lock, door bowden cable, interior door handle, tie rod ends...not to mention adding a full exhaust, the 3rd frontal radiator, and so on. With directions and the proper tools (nothing that Harbor Freight doesn't carry), it was all pretty "basic." 2) Who said anything about needing a new engine? Even if that's the case, you're quoting dealer pricing; my plan is to pull one from a yard or have the current rebuilt for ~$15k. 3) And independents charge half that...and if you do it yourself, it costs nothing. $44k is plenty for both the car and an emergency fund to tackle even the worst scenarios (at shop parts and labor rates!).

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That's the guy that replaces spark plugs and oil after every drive, right? No wonder he thinks these cars are expensive... stupid always costs money.

In short, yes, you can. As others have mentioned, you can get a good C2 for 25-30k, and that leaves quite a bit for maintenance for the next 7 years. Especially if you have access to a lift, and some capable friends. Krazy is just that, so even though he chimed in first, I would factor in his information last. Cheers, DS

Yeah, $44k over 7 years, easy to do IMHO. I have less than that in my '02 C2 I bought in '08, 38k miles at the time, and have a decent list of mods, but I do put under 6k miles a year, so for the price of a 55k mile or so one today, it is very doable. You do have to grow a thick skin though, if you want to play here....though it is an immense wealth of information and help.

I don't see why not. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I dont think we're on the same page here. I understood him to say his SALARY is $40,000 per year not his BUDGET is $44,000. Maybe I mis-understood his first post? I thought he said earns in the $40's. Which would make it lunacy to maintain a 996. I think we all at least owe him the honesty of how expenses on a 996 can add up. I'm sure he can look forward to plunking down $500 for one tire, $4000 for the RMS, IMSB, and clutch, and it goes on and on. By all means by one but dont go into it without a dose of reality. I have learned one strange thing about the 996. You either get a very good one that seems to have no problems or a very bad one that eats $$. How about this, just do a search on 996 problems and expenses.

I read it as $44K over 7 years.

You ask a somewhat strange question considering the existing fleet that you describe, particularly the NSX. As a good 996 is the equal or better of any of them (BAM!, I just pissed off NSX world) and money seems a major issue, I assume you would start by getting rid of all of those cars to concentrate on just one Porsche. That simple move may make the dollar portion of your question easier to manage. With that said, the answer to your question is a solid 'maybe.' Maintenance and repair is obviously the variable that is beyond control. Some of the things that can break/wear out on a 996 are very expensive to repair. If you are buying a $20k 996, chances are, due to age and mileage, it is going to need maintenance and replacement at a higher rate. Doing a lot of the work yourself may make the difference, or not... check out the price of a replacement catalytic converter or some of the other big cost parts that can go wrong. A friend is currently looking at an ABS system failure that may be $5k to repair. Remember too that on more modern, OBDII Porsches, a big part of the repair challenge is fault diagnosis. Simple and cheap hand held code readers are only so helpful. The bottom line: If you want relative cost certainly in a fun car to drive, sell off your aging fleet, get Porsche out of your head, and motor on down to the Subaru or Scion dealer to buy an FR-S or BRZ. Great cars, and bolt-on power upgrades are already emerging. When I was a teacher I happily drove the wheels off a Miata ;-) There are no inexpensive Porsches ... and the older they get the more they will cost you. And sometimes that cost can be very high, very suddenly. It is that simple.

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I really have to wonder where you get your figures. Hankook Ventus V12's, all around, cost me ~$700 (including shipping, mounting, and balancing). There is not a single tire on Tirerack that touches $500 for even the 18" option ($338 is the most expensive for a rear). A far cry from $500 indeed. My IMS bearing cost ~$700, the clutch kit was ~$650, and the seal cost was negligible (labor). Porsche book time is ~7 hours; add a bit for the IMS work. Unless you're paying ~$400 an hour, your quote is rediculous. Worst case scenario leaves you needing a flywheel as well (~$800). You've still got a long way to hit your $4k figure. Your quotes are nowhere near reality. Are you just making these up?

Hey, dont listen to me. Im a moron and know nothing about cars but please read what Ralph posted.

from Tire rack: Size: 295/30ZR18 N3(Porsche) Sidewall Style: Blackwall Serv. Desc: (98Y) Load Range: XL UTQG: 220 AA A Price: $488.00 (each) Estimated Availability: In Stock Estimated Arrival: Get Estimate Im so sorry, make that $488. MMA seriously, you dont think I know what my replacement tires cost?

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Me too.

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295 is not an approved replacement size. If you'd like to start talking cost of extras and modifications, we're way beyond providing an accurate running cost of a 996. The original question: Maybe I missed something?

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I tried to send you a PM but you have it turned off. Is that your car I see parked close to the airport on training days (IST)? Where do you work? Send me PM. John

Your not serious, right? I think every C4S and TT owner would disagree.

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Again, a base MKI (first year) C2 (base model), is approved for 265's out back on 18" wheels. A base MKII C2 is approved for 285's on 18" wheels. Original question, yet again: I didn't realize he asked for a C4S or a Turbo. I do wear glasses, so maybe I have been skipping lines somewhere. I'm done. There's plenty here on which he can make a decision. Good luck with your search, RotaryJunky!

I think that is very reasonable. I just picked up an 02 cab with 85 miles for just over 24k. But, last year the PO put in a new clutch, IMS, water pump, and new front brakes. He also bought the clear corners and a new windscreen. It did need front tires and the top is 11 years old and it's separating from the cables, but that was all planned to get replaced. Once this stuff is done, it should be routine maintenance. Shop around and drive a few and ask for maintenance records and pay the $200 to get a ppi.

Yes you can run a 996 for $44k over 7 years, mine has been super reliable and just needed oil, filters and a brake flush, all I did myself. If you are slightly mechanically savvy then most jobs are very simple. However I have spent a lot on my car in the last 12 months out of choice not necessity. Like any performance car, things can go wrong and it can be expensive. But the horror stories are much overblown in my opinion. I don’t think running this will be any different than an NSX, if anything the 996 is a better everyday day, you can DD it all year, carry 4 passengers and track it when you want. Go for it you won’t regret it.

When I purchased my car in 09 i was told to have $5k set aside per year for repairs and maint. Now I've never spent that much in a year, but its always a possibility. My largest bill was just under $4K for IMS upgrade, RMS, AOS, H2O pump cant remember what else. Lowest year was last year at about $1,400. This year I need breaks all around + rotors. I have two fords were are cheep to R&M I never get scared taking them to the garage. Just go into a purchase with eyes wide open. My 911 is the best car i've ever owned.

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NSX is generally known to be by far the most reliable/ cheapest to maintain exotic out there. There's no way a 996 can come near it; that's just nonsense.

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Ditto on the tires, that discount tire mail in rebate promo was clutch. Hankook Ventus v12 295/30 ran me under $200 a pop.

Wow, I realize my question was naive, so I really appreciate all of the input. Can you guys visit me in Traverse City, MI and meet with my wife? (and no, only to discuss 911's) With instructions, I am not afraid to do anything, given the right tools and plenty of time. I do love working on the miata and civic, its so easy and problems are usually easily diagnosed. I would be concerned about diagnosing Porsche problems, but with a resource like this, its less daunting. I would also not track the 911, leaving that to the cheap to fix cars. I don't track the NSX either, my wife is my collector car insurance agent, I call it Nagerty insurance. I know, I'm hilarious. The NSX has 164K on it but still looks and runs great, I also have Cody and the Lovefab NSX shop one mile away, hence the off hours lifts. I will try and remember to take a picture of it sitting there and not being driven. I agree with WalterRohrl that you only live once and I have always wanted a Porsche. The back seat is definitely a big issue, but I swear its better than a BRZ or TT back seat. My kids will be going to my school for the next three and a half years, then they go to high school, and they will both be tall. But short trips only so don't report my to child services. My wife would love for me to sell all my cars and buy one, but it would be too hard for me, and I would only get another $35K probably. And I am just fine with a "base" model 911. I find 300hp satisfying. Thanks again for all of the great advice, I am much clearer on where my research needs to go from here.

As far as diagnostics for Porsche, for $250 you can have near-dealer level tools: http://www.durametric.com/porsche-carrera-996.aspx

NSX's have there share of issues and parts can be very expensive, but many issues are owner created. That said, I don't hesitate to drive mine on trips, when I get let out.

Actually, I think KK has a point about the OPs question. Who makes in the mid 40s per year, but buys/budgets for a $44k car (including maintenance) over a 7 year period? Not to be snobby, if anyone out there owns a 996 and makes $44k, and has a wife & 2 kids and other vehicles, mortage etc, but really? Not a wise move financially, in the least. Who actually says (specifically) $44k over 7 years? Kind of odd way to word it, dontcha think? Makes more sense that he started the title thinking "Can I afford a 996 with payments & maintenace over 7 years, if I only make $44k?" regardless of how it reads. Then the rest of the post makes a bit more sense. Hell, if you live in the UP, go ahead and get one. You can only drive it for the 3 weeks of summer you have up there, anyway...;-)

I am very careful with my money, I am a teacher after all (tightwads!) and I have a background in finance, but mostly because I want cars. While I only earn in the 40's and my wife 30's, we sold our old house, which we paid off, land contract, which basically pays for our new house (modest but 6 car garage) which we made nice with savings. I have always owned reliable old cars that hardly depreciate and I don't spend money on myself except car stuff and tracking. Once I deduct for college savings, monthly bills, food and other needless expenses, non 911 maintenance monthly allowance, and vacation fund, I end up with $500 a month plus current car fund. I can either finance the car or "borrow" from college savings. So that's were I came up with the 7 year idea, after that, I will be replacing our winter drivers (04 accord and 05 pilot) per an agreement with the wifey. Sorry for so much detail, but that is were that figure comes from.

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Is your wife a teacher as well? If you don't have to contribute to 401K, since you have a defined benefit plan, I can see how you can make that work.

She works for Hagerty Collector car insurance. I am a co-founder / teacher administrator of a small but popular charter school. No pension but we both max our 401K's and our employers contribute a little. I also look at my parents and I would rather live it up a little now while I can appreciate it. And gas powered 911's will be worth millions by the time I retire!

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RJ - It appears to me that you have a better grasp on your figures than 99% of the people out there that run out and get a new car....And probably better than many of the people on here as well before they bought their Porsche. As I said before, you only live once, you have extra cars "just in case" and if it makes you happy without causing you to neglect your other responsibilities, then great. The ultimate litmus test for affordability is an extreme one, but basically what would happen if you bought the car and for some reason you lost the whole thing to some catastrophic uninsured event or failure? Would it cause you or your family irreparable hardship? If no, then you're good to go. People on here are constantly posting about good part deals that they found or who is selling oil for half off or how they dropped their engine to replace an AOS or whatever. Most of the people on here are regular folks and there are more of them every year as these cars age and A) some need more repairs, B) the people buying them buy them used and don't go to the dealer for everything and C) the people here have way more mechanical interest and knowledge than the average car owner, irrespective of budget. That's the beauty of buying a 996 (or any other older car) vs. a newer car of which most are either under warranty or completely dealer maintained. Older cars tend to have more of a knowledge base out there in regard to repairs and maintenance for the DIY'er due to simple necessity.

Another common sense opinion. Halik, not everyone is willing to compromise and run a non-Porsche "cheap" tire on a 170+mph car. Walter, well stated.

your climate can impact the amount of maintenace required. Porsches driven in year round warm climates require much less attention than winter driven cars. I only drive my Boxster S on weekends but that includes winters and I've easily put $15K into the car over the course of the first 70K miles, not including the the purchase price of course. Granted, I usually upgrade things when they need replacing. But as you know with expensive German cars: costs of repairs do not scale down with depreciation. And if you make the mistake of many to presume that a Boxster is cheaper to maintain than a 996, then think again. Same expensive parts, same specialized labor. Expenses fall into three categories. Unexpected repairs. It seems like those hardly ever seem anything less than $600. The second group is major maintenace items -- Shocks, clutch, exhaust, etc. Those can run into the $3-$4k range easily. And then there's run of the mill maintenace like oil changes, tires, pads etc. This last group is not what's going to eat the major part of the your budget. The costs are really driven by parts more than labor. My advice if your watching your pennies is not to own the same Porsche for the length of time you are considering. Once you get deeper into the odometer you can have several repairs in a very short amount of time that can add up to 25% of the purchase price for a $20K 996. Get a California 996 with low miles, an already upgraded IMS, and sell it before drifts into higher mileage. That means you'll have to either negotiate very aggresively or you'll have to layout some more cash up front to cover the lower mileage or you can do both.

I dont see where the OP posted that he wanted an MKI or II, C2, C4S, TT, Targa, Cab, etc. Maybe it would help if you narrowed down what your looking for in the 996 line. I dont think it would be wise to buy a very high mileage MKI and not expect to spend many $$$$ on repairs (unless youre another Imre). Just pick a few 996 parts that you think you might need to replace and do some price checks. Prepare to be floored. The "Porsche tax" is absurd.

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Wow, couple that to the $15k tranny you quoted me and I'm sure you've scared off most potential Pcar buyers. But please do tell what the perfect Porsche is, it appears from you not to be the 996 Not everyone will see speeds over 80mph in their Porsches either. So warranting more expensive rubber for rolling around town, pointless. You can't even use the "what if they do get spirited" as some people just arn't. I'm willing to bet 75% of Boxsters never see 90mph. Lots of Cali, NY, luxury type people get it to be seen in. I have a 140+ mph truck. Probably 50% of the 25,000 ever made ever saw anything over 110. Even those who do crack those speeds can't do it long enough for a N rated or Z rated tire to matter. Heck I pulled 155 for about a minute and a half in my truck on the way back from Vegas down 95 (many people know this part of the freeway) on Hankooks, under rated. Because time at speed matters more than the speed it's self. I pull 130mph all the time on under rated under weighted tires, for 11 seconds...

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1) http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...12-evo-page-10 2) LOL 170+mph car You drive a 10 year old 320hp car; current V6 camaro makes more hp. You should stop deluding yourself that you have a 250 gto in your garage and use some common sense when it comes to maintenance. Notice that you're the only person in this thread that claims that these cars are unbelievably expensive to own;maybe it's time to stop changing oil daily and shopping for Michelin PAX tires on a car that's worth ~$30K. You remind me of the stereotyping dealer-serviced Ferrari 308 owner.

LOL, guess I was wrong. Looks like the PS2 is ALSO great in wet weather! Thanks. 177=C2 174=C4S Speed info from Porsche not me.

I am completely open to model, it would most likely depend on which one I found and felt good about. I am obviously limited by my budget.

No Porsche dealer for me, there isn't one, and I don't trust dealers because I have known mechanics who work for dealers. Nothing special there, just lots of salesman. Unless you can find the right one, of course. I would never trust an Acura dealer unless they had an experienced specialist.

Rotary, where are you located (region/state)?

Traverse City, Michigan.

Was hoping I could point you to a reputable dealer or otherwise, but I think we're nearly opposite latitudes of the country. I think you may encounter the same problem I had with available, easily viewable supply.

I should research this, and will as well in more detail, but which generation and model seems to have the least number of issues?

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There are no qualified, publicly available, statistically significant, quantitative figures regarding 996 reliability between MKI and MKII variants (to my knowledge). Jake Raby (of Flat 6 Innovations) prefers the MKI engine (3.4L) ; I do not know entirely why. Hartech (the go-to rebuilder in the U.K.) does not seem to have a preference, but does (via forum crosstalk) indicate greater issues on the MKII's (3.6L) with bore scoring (due to greater stroke) and individual cylinder heat management (due to non-tailored head gasket design). Solutions are present for the IMS bearing for either "generation" of 996. I am not addressing aesthetics or options between generations, merely reliability. I hope I chose my words carefully on this one.

My experience with the 996 is that your $$ should cover it with litle problem. I bought an 03 Cab in 2008 and have spent ~$3500 on parts and maintenance to date. (mostly tires) I only have put ~30k miles on it in that time period. You can find most parts for much less than Porsche charges. For instance if you needed a SAI pump which would you buy? Guess who makes the Porsche pump. http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/200.../air_pump.html

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I drove a Prius 90 mph from Orlando to Miami on the FL Turnpike... Those speeds are nothing unusual on the open highway, less so with a sports car engine behind you. And this upper speed realm is not solely where quality tires shine. Grip is grip. Just as handy for reacting to an accident two car lengths ahead as it is for posting FTD at your local PCA event. Also, If a Boxster hasn't seen 90 mph from the "average type" Porsche driver neither has the average 996/997/991 driver who will never make it to a DE/AX either. Old dudes in no hurry to get anywhere are the typical driver of both Porsche coupe and Porsche roadster.

Rotaryjunky, if your serious, go for the most recent model, lowest mileage, and best history 996, you can afford, BUT be prepared for some large expenses unless you have a dealer CPO car which you will no longer find anyway in the 996 series. If you are like me, a low payed govt worker (even though Im blessed with my career and thankful I have it), you better learn the 996 inside and out before, during, and after you buy. It helps if you have an extensive mechanical background. I say this because I simply cannot afford to pay for ANY mechanical repairs (exc paint work) performed by a dealer or Indy shop. I know the vast majority here drive to their dealer/Indy for repairs and cheerfully fork over money because financially speaking, it is not a problem for them. I do not have this option and this is coming from someone who has no mortgage payment, only 1 kid (in private school), and few bills. We do joke a lot in here so try to use what makes sense to you. I would be happy to share my looking/buying exeperiences I have had, as Im sure others will as well. Good Luck.

Welcome to Rennlist, rotaryjunky! We have the same taste in cars. I graduated to my 996 from a '95 Miata M-edition (still have it) and have always wanted an NSX. But where's the rotary in your stable? I can tell you that you can easily drive one of these cars for that kind of budget. My 996 is the cheapest car I've run in quite some time, but it's not my daily driver. Don't pay any attention to the naysayers--these are great cars and they're available for great prices these days. I think you're asking the right questions. Let us know if we can help! If I were in your shoes, I'd shoot for a '99-01 Carrera or Carrera 4, preferably with the Aero package. Best looking 996 they made!

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Not sure how true that is these days.... When the NSX first came out, it was popular to compare the insanely expensive maintenance costs on cars like Ferrari 328's the the NSX and it came out ahead. As reliability of exotics (even Ferrari) and performance levels of all cars increased, that gap narrowed quite a bit. I'm no NSX expert, but it looks like a $28K budget would buy you... An 8-year old, 50K mile 996 in perfect condition. A 20-year old, 50K mile NSX in ?? condition. I'm guessing that service & ownership cost (exclusive of any appreciation/depreciation) is going to be *way* higher on the old NSX than the much newer, higher performance 996.

RotaryJunkie, You're an adult male that knows cars. You don't need any of us telling you what you can and can't afford and or how much what will cost what when and if it's needed. These cars are BUILT in GERMANY. In Germany they have winter, they have rain, they have heat. Contrary to what most American Porsche owners think these cars can be driven in all weather and year round. They are like any other car, if they are maintained they will last a long time. Look up a maitanence schedule for the 996. Buy a cars with good mait history. Have a little extra money set aside for things and font sweat it. BTW- I have a nice C4s for sale. Perfect for Michigan

NSX clutches last about 20K and can cost $4K+. Some brake parts are shared with cheap hondas, but most caring a heavy NSX tax, if you can find them at all. However, I think it would be hard to find another exotic with 164K miles on the original engine and dyno at 286hp at the wheels with perfect compression across. The only mods are headers, exhaust, and intake.

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I say yes.

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...OR you could poke around on Rennlist and see that Jake Raby would pick the oldest 996 he could find with a nice, stout dual-row IMS bearing. ^^Edit - that sounded like a dig on KrazyK - it wasn't, just pointing out that opinions are even more prolific than a-holes... I paid over KBB for my '99 - but damn, look at her. You can pay about $30K for a well-equipped (NOT loaded) Accord, or you can pay about 30 grand for (my opinion, of course) a gleaming, glorious automotive marvel hewn from a solid slab of strip-mined sextotanium.

Short answer - yes, barring a catastrophic failure. I'm doing it as we speak. If you turn your own wrenches then absolutely...especially if you figure you will sell the car after seven years. You said 7 years, 6000 miles per year, and a *spend* of $44K. Here are my fat estimates: Decent car: = $23000 7 years of routine maintenance (oil changes, brake flushes, brake pads) = $5000 One steering rack, one water pump, one expansion tank (or equiv) = $3000 Three sets of rear tires, one set of fronts (Hankooks or equiv) = $3000 One set of brake rotors, one set of motor mounts = $1000 One clutch job = $2000 Miscellaneous bits (ignition switch, O2 sensor, wiper blades etc) = $1500 That's only $37,500 and I think my estimates are fat. If you *give* the car away for $10,000 when you're done then you've only spent $27,500 in total. Nowhere near your budget. Hell, for $44K over seven years you could run a Turbo if you were careful. Buy a car for $50K - spend $24K on maintenance - sell it for $30K.

Thank you, you guys are very helpful. Must be because I am new. Although the turbo miata forum would never be so understanding. I guess 911 ownership IS the better life!

Or think outside of the box and look for a 964 or a 993. All maintenance costs like the above but with little or no depreciation on resale like your NSX.

He may as well get a 996 TT and have a much improved package over the 964 or 993.

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And that fits into his Budget how?

Years ago, I put a new engine in a turbo 89 rx7 and then removed the turbo four times with different problems and two turbo rebuilds. I've also owned a 94 twin turbo rx7, low miles, and it was a beautiful car. I was constantly tracing down leaks (despite having done all the extensive preventative steps), which was no biggy, but it seemed like it had a different amount of horsepower every time I drove it. Of course, that was an obnoxious sequential setup. So I am just biased against the inherent increase in complexity. My setup on the miata is very simple and easy to access by comparison, and I built the original motor with excellent parts for so cheap that I can't say it here. Still trying to blow up the replacement engine in it now!

And my son and I witnessed a major engine failure of a very beautiful tt 911 (I think it was a 997?) at Gingerman raceway a couple of years ago, locked up and sent him skidding off. The owner was displeased. I have also driven a couple high powered turbo NSX's (including one that dynoed at something like 900hp on race gas) and even 500rwhp is more scary than fun for me. I work hard to keep my 200hp miata on the track.

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Just like my 85 and 86.5 SVO's! Every time I turned the key I literally would cross my fingers and hope for a good day. Turns out it was mostly the tuning issues or lack of ability to tune much, until 20 years later, I had dropped both off at a friends house for peanuts.

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996TT prices do not equal a 964 or a 993. Don't know where you get your numbers. Here is an excellent example of a 964 pending leakdown and compression results. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Carre...orcev4exp=true From this thread. https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...rtisement.html

I would love to own both an NSX and a 911. One of the reasons why I went with the 911 over an NSX was to be able to enjoy the ride with my whole family since it had back seats. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford both at the same time. Thanks to Magazine Publications like Road &Track and Sport Compact Car(used sport car articles), coupled to games like Gran Turismo, the NSX prices have actually gone up from awhile ago and remain up. Also Larry Ellison, the main guy of Oracle drove an NSX as his daily driver forever, even though he had the money to buy other cars. That is saying something not only about reliability but the daily driving pleasure and comfort it provides. Sorry, I didn't mean to make this sound like a NSX vs. 911 post. GL OP with finding your car. I think being on this forum would allow you to make a great choice on whatever model 911 you are seeking.

I have a developer here that's driving a newer NSX daily for 5 years now. Great car Alpine, the back seats are still the biggest reason I'm looking at a 996 myself over a Cayman.

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Honestly, the back seats of a 996 are only useful if your kids are under 7-10 years of age and/or on the shorter side. Also if you or your wife are over 5'8", it might be a tight squeeze if you have to use baby seats(depending on model) as the front occupants will have limited seating position. Also, for a casual Sunday drive or some occasions, it's ok to haul the family but I can't see it being realistic on a daily basis if you are using it as a daily driver to haul your family. I just wanted to throw this out there to any potential 911 owners with the back seat high on their priority list, and would really suggest brining your family with when shopping to see how everyone fits. my $ .02

I'm 5 10, wifes 5 6, kid is 29.5 inches and 10 months old, so it'll suite me for a few years The random Sunday drive fitting the family was the idea. Actually the 911 will probably see as much road time as my truck, about 4 days a month.

Here are all the things I've had to do to my car since I've owned it.

LOL @ kpl!! Like most of us here that enjoy our 996s, we've driven lots of different drivers fun cars. I'm 55, and this is my 3rd Porsche, (924 and 944 many years before this one) and by far, without any doubt, the most fun and satisfying ride I've ever owned. I owned the others in my 20's/early 30s, and even bough tthe 924 brand spankin new (what a waste of cash in retrospect) and I fully empathize with the "enjoy it while you are young enough to enjoy it attitude" . Go for it. You dont make in the mid 40s, your family income is in the high 70s or low 80s, big difference. You understand financials and priorities. Pull the trigger, man. They are the bargain car of the century, and if you get a decent one, which is not as hard as it sounds on here, there is ton of work you can do on your own to greatly increase your odds of no issues, and it will easily last as long as you want it to. There are problem childs all over in the car world, & the 996 is no exception, but wow, what a car for the money. I drove about 10 of them before I knew I wanted a MKII, supple leather, PSM, bixenons and a few other requirements, and after that it was easy. Harder where you are..pickings are slim.

Exactly, If you read the post above mine, it makes sense.

$44K/7years=$6,286 per year or $524/mth Not sure if financing is involved but assuming a $25K loan at today's rates (provided you can get a loan for an older car...) for a really nice 996 (or an older 996 with a 3 year extended warranty wrapped into the deal) you are looking at an average monthly payment of ~ $400.00. That leaves approx $124/month for maintenance or $1500 per year. Or $10,500 in maintenance over the 7 year period in question. I say yes you can. But only if that's what your wife says! Good luck!

I have some saved up and would probably borrow from college fund to avoid a car loan. It would need to be a 2004 or newer to get a 2.25% loan at my credit union. Wife wants me to get a GTI, so I think I just need to show up with the Porsche.

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Pen Fed will loan with no car age limit.

+1 on Pentagon Federal. If you are not military, it's like $25 to join and they will give you 1.49%, up to 5 or 6 years and no age restriction on the car.

That's some very useful information. Best forum ever.

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FIFY

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We just didn't want you to end up with a GTI over a Porsche.

My advice, pull the trigger and don't look back.

Thats easy for us to say but hes paying the bill(s). For your budget just buy the 996 TT and your worries are over.

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fixed

Mwahahahaha Love it.

We could live in our popup camper...... Ironically, it may end up being up to my 11 year old car fanatic, but practical minded son and whether he is willing to squeeze in the back so his 10 year old sister can sit in the front. And warning, I am currently witnessing a small block being mated to a Porsche trans-axle, don't panic, its not going into a Porsche. I'll post some pics but it may be a month before its paid for. Not that I would ever do that to a 911. Unless I had been steered in the wrong direction...

since Parade is in Traverse City this year! Buy the car, join your local PCA chapter and plan to attend as many of the events as you can. Registration starts on March 12th. There'll be more Porsches than you can imagine from all over the country (and a few from Canada).

Wow! that is a huge event. I think this is a sign. And only gives me a few months to buy a car. Otherwise, I'll be the guy prowling around the resort in a brookland green nsx.

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It's true that the rear seats are on the small side, but for many of us they were the difference between being able to justify a sports car of this caliber and not. If my 996 didn't have small rear seats, I'd have had to get an STi, Evo, or RX-8, none of which I really wanted. My 10-year-old fits fine back there and I even throw a car seat in for my 18-month-old when the situation requires. Agreed on trying it out before you buy it, though. Wait, so you call out others for telling him to go for it because they're not paying the bills, then you suggest a car that costs 50-100% more? Makes sense.

Hi Guys. New to the forum but reading a lot of interesting stuff here. I have currently own a 2000 996 C2 had it for about 6 weeks now. But i have owned a 83SC and a 1995 993 C4 previously. I had a look at my maintenance records for the 993 ant over the 3 years i had it i spent $7,500AUD on it but i replaced the ABS unit, Airbag unit and new starter motor all not on the cheap side but. I knew about the airbag unit when i bought it but the other things just went and needed to be replaced just like on any older car. My view is that you can but a new car and watch it depreciate fast or but an older Porsche and pay for the upkeep. Either way, I think over time you end up spending the same amount of money. The difference is if you are happy to pay maintenance costs you get to drive a Porsche. The 996 is an awesome car for the money and is a lot more modern than the older style Porsches but it still dives like a Porsche. I love my 996!!! My vote is to but a 996, you wont regret it.

I am still pre-porsche, but I will try and come out to see some of your cars at the Parade in Traverse city, if I don't crew at Pikes Peak. I will probably be driving a green nsx and I am tall and skinny. I also have a garage with stuff if anyone needs anything. My number is one two three one five seven zero zero six four eight. My kids are with Grandparents and I will finally be relaxing unless I suck it up and go to Colorado. Thanks again for all your advice.

A very interesting mishmash of useful information and total nonsense and/or irrelevant comments scattered about this thread. My thoughts: A 996 TT for that budget? Umm.. no. Highly unlikely. 996 C2 for that budget? Absolutely, barring some catastrophic failure, which could happen to ANY car. 170 mph car? Well, yes, but do MOST of us drive them at 170 mph? Highly doubtful. Most Boxters never see 90 mph? Ummm.... I routinely see that in my crappy old 124 hp Hyundai with three bicycles on the rear rack. 5 freeway between N. San Diego and S. Orange County... I would get run over by everyone else on the road if I puttered along much slower. I find it very hard to believe that MOST Boxters don't see 90 mph. (Are most Boxters purchased by little old ladies for use on Sunday church runs?) I think Jasper had the most "reasonable" cost estimate in the thread. Again, no guarantees for any SPECIFIC car... but on average, his estimates seems quite reasonable. The rear seats are fine for kids, assuming you aren't doing a cross-country trip with them. If you mainly do "normal" family driving (to school and back, outings to the zoo, etc.), the rear seats are fine. On that topic: Some people complain about the fact that there are back seats in a sports car. Personally, I think it's one of the smartest things Porsche does with its design (not to mention, clips for a roof rack!!... and cup holders that pull out from the dash!!!). Your income isn't in the 40's, unless your wife deposits her check in a Swiss bank account and keeps the account info. a secret. Your income is mid-70s... certainly adequate for what you propose. Of course, I don't know the rest of your financial situation, but it ain't like you are scrambling to get some OT at the local McDs, while also swiping packets of sugar to supplement the daily meal fare at home. The 7 year span sounded odd to me... why choose a specific number like that? If the ongoing costs start to mount up to more than you are expecting, just sell the car at year 5 or 6 (or whenever you no longer feel comfortable with the carrying costs). As other have said, unless you wreck it or implode the engine, be sure to factor its residual value into your expense formula. So, it's $44k PLUS the residual value for your budget. So, in summary, yes, your budget seems just fine, barring some very unfortunate issues, (which, as stated above, could happen with ANY car). I should add, my car has resulted in some unexpected expenses: I had to invest about $60 on eBay to buy a pile of new microfiber towels for washing/polishing, etc. I had to get rid of the pool table in the garage (well, that wasn't an expense, but I had to give it away to get rid of it). I put in a brand new garage door and opener ($1,200). I still need to resurface the garage floor (I think a couple hundred dollars for the epoxy). I had to buy some Porsche books (ex:The Complete Book of Porsche 911: Every Model since 1964 [Randy Leffingwell], because the more I learn, the more I want to know. (about $100 for the misc. books). I joined PCA ($40). I'm about to pay to join this web site (I forgot the fee). I hang out in the garage more now, so I had to spend a few hundred $$ for "man cave" crappola. The above are all expenses I did not have before getting the Porsche.

^^^ what is this logic and reason you speak of? There will be none of that on here. You know better.

Buy 4 Boxsters for $8K each -- reserve $2k each for repairs -- then when they break seriously -- or go beyond the $2k budget -- move to the next one. You should get an average of 2 years each out of it -- which meets your 7 year plan and still have $4K (or 1/2 a boxster :-) left to spend. M

If we are talking costs due to owning a Porsche -- let's just say my Boxster S (my first P-car) was the most expensive thing I ever did in my life -- maybe even more than my house :-) Look at my sig.......

[QUOTE=txhokie4life;10555773]Buy 4 Boxsters for $8K each -- reserve $2k each for repairs -- then when they break seriously -- or go beyond the $2k budget -- move to the next one. You should get an average of 2 years each out of it -- which meets your 7 year plan and still have $4K (or 1/2 a boxster :-) left to spend. I love it! A friend and I used to do just that with 944s, but we then turned them into spec cars... The Boxster is like the new 944...

Re: "^^^ what is this logic and reason you speak of? There will be none of that on here. You know better".... Ooops... sorry about that. Didn't mean to interject any semblance of logic here. Let me rephrase my earlier post, in terms of a typical Rennlist thread (choose one of the following replies): Option A: Yes, absolutely your budget will work. Everyone knows that you can get a near-mint low-mileage 996 for about $12K to $14K. Add in another couple thousand if you want TT version. After all, NO one wants a 996 because they have funny headlights. Most indy shops charge roughly 1/12 that of a dealership, so if you take it to an indy, most repairs will be under $100 in labor. The parts can all be purchased on Pelican or eBay for a few bucks each. Except for a RMS. Budget maybe $30K for that little bugger. You only live once. Do what makes you happy. Go for it! Boo-yah! Option B: Absolutely not. Your budget plan is doomed from the start. As stated by others above, there are NO cheap Porsches. Figure $38K minimum for a '99 C2 with 275,000 miles that has been previously stripped for parts. Figure 63 oil changes over the 7 year span, each one at roughly $1,200. Most all the interior trim pieces should be immediately replaced with their carbon-fiber equivalents, or you are just BEGGING for trouble with the car. Similarly, check the date-code on the tires. Remember, they are like milk... if they are a couple days beyond the expiration date, be sure to replace them at once. Maybe replace them BEFORE that date... no sense taking crazy chances. Be sure to upgrade the lug bolts to titanium at that time. Seven year budget should total somewhere about $3.2 million.

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Nice one. That's more like it.

I'm late to the party here, but maybe the info below will help you. It always amazes me how many dream crushers lurk on this forum. I can't tell you if you can own the car for these numbers, but I can tell you of my experience on my 2004 cab. Hopefully this will help you make a more informed decision. I looked for my car, on and off, for 2 or 3 years. I finally found it and purchased it for around 34K. It was in very good condition and the PPI turned up nothing. It had 44000 miles on it, and a new clutch. It needed new tires (all around). Due to the replacement cost of an engine, I opted to preemptively replace the fabled IMS bearing. I can't tell you if that was the right choice, but I sleep better. I also have had to do 3 coils, the coolant tank and the water pump, and am now due for brakes (which I'll do myself). Oil analysis indicates no problems internally with the engine. I plan to keep her for another year or so - maybe longer, but eventually sell her while she still has some value left. Like you, numbers are a big factor in my choice of cars. I generally look at the cost per year on the car, balanced by the difference between purchase and sale/trade in price. Costs: Tires (rear) - 637.15 LMS, Serpentine, OilPan Rear Main Seal - 2265.89 Coils, Check engine codes - 1067.88 Tires (front) - 397.83 Coolant Tank - 125.00 Coolant Tank Labor - 465.65 Water Pump parts and labor - roughly 510.00 So - there are the costs for about 1.75 years of ownership. The more you can work on it yourself, the more money you will save - sounds like you're well equipped. A lift is a very valuable asset. I'd say it's doable especially if you put fewer miles on it per year. The costs above a probably front-loaded, as I'm hoping they will go down over the next year or two. You never know though. I'd recommend draining the tank completely in the fall, fogging the cylinders, and driving it daily in the summer. I'm impressed with how you manage your resources. My dad has said "we don't work this hard just to work." I think of that when I drive the car. If you really want the 996, don't rule it out, but make sure it's what you want. And let us know what you find. Rob

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So about $5K in 1.75 years when taking it into the shop for everything and buying into the IMS gloom and doom. In contrast, the costs could have also been this for an owner comfortable working on his/her own car: Tires - $1050 Coolant Tank - $125.00, (Moderate DIY labor) Skip the IMS, install a Guardian Jr. Instead - $250 Serpentine belt, oil pan gasket - $50 (Easy DIY labor) Replace six coils - $259 (Easy DIY Labor) Water Pump - $250 (Easy DIY labor) About $2K in 1.75 years, over half of which was tires... This kind of illustrates why some think 996's are extremely expensive to own, and others view their ownership costs as quite reasonable...

On the contrary pfbz - You can see the coolant tank and labor are listed separately. That's because I tried but was unable to remove the coolant tank myself. After removing the smog pump and lowering the engine to the limits of the stops, tolerances simply would not allow for the removal of the tank even after removing the cap on the driver side fuel rail. Having to hop a plane in the morning, I put the 911 on a flatbed (0 dollars) and sent her in for a quite reasonable visit with my indy. Some of us have the luxury of time - some don't. I do a lot of work myself, from brakes to oil changes, to clutch cable replacements and pedal cluster rebuilds. I have 2 Porsches and 2 diesels, and sometimes you just can't juggle. However - I'm smart enough to know when I'm in over my head, or when my travel schedule doesn't allow for my shade tree pursuits. So you might want to wait a minute before casting judgement. Also - you'll note the oil pain, serpentine and RMS were done at the same time as the IMS. Since the engine was out, it made perfect sense to replace a few items that were easily accessible and wouldn't induce extra labor. The main purpose of this thread is to arm the OP with information and let him make his decision based on data - not opinions. I'm arming him with data from my experiences so he can make his own decisions. If my experience is different from yours - so be it - but put some information out there to help him - critiquing my decisions on how I choose to service my car does not help Rotaryjunky. Rob

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It wasn't my intent to be critical of your repair decisions.. Only to point out that what is $5,000 worth of ownership cost to one person could also be $2,000 of ownership cost to another. Everyone has their own skill level, time constraints, and financial flexibility. My point is that cost of ownership can vary wildly depending on what work you are capable/willing/have time to do yourself. Though I will point out that you don't need to drop the engine (or transmission) for the serpentine belt or oil pan... Both are easy repairs. The the RMS on these cars often has a minor leak that is nothing more than a very minor inconvenience (usually not even enough to actually drip). Typically minor RMS leaks are deferred until the transmission is down for other reasons, so a $250 guardian would have allowed that major repair cost to be deferred indefinitely.

I had a similar dream about 25 years ago! Bought a 5 year old 928 with about 40k miles for about $20k or half the original price (and probably overpaid). Put another 180k miles on it over the next 10 years and dealt with many expensive repairs. Fortunately no major engine or transmission failures, but I chased many oil leaks which definitely put a damper on the pleasure of ownership during the later years. Overall, the repairs and maintenance ended up being more than the original purchase price, however this was rather extreme mileage and I did drive the bejesus out of it frequently. Worth it to me to realize that "dream" on what was a very limited budget at the time? I'd say yes - sort of, but most people I know would have lost patience much sooner than me. Having your "eyes wide open" as you seem to going in definitely helps!

My car has back seats?

My apologies then pfbz - looked to me like I was getting lumped into the key-turning crowd as opposed to the wrench turning crowd. Another thought on the IMS - there are a million long threads on it, so I won't rehash them here, but from my perspective, I felt the 700.00 part was worth the investment, given the worst-case scenario of a dead $16K motor. I also looked at it from a resale perspective too - figuring it would add value and make the car easier to sell when the time comes. I think it's a good item to replace if you have the engine down for something like a clutch replacment - turns it from a 10 hour job into a 1 hour job. My car had a new clutch, so I didn't feel like waiting unti the car had l 75 or 85K miles. To give fair time to the other viewpoint though, I think estimates for IMS failures are in the 5% range, plus or minus a few, so it basically comes down to what kind of risk you're comfortable with, rotaryjunky.

Dont feel to bad even though that seems like a fortune for a coolant tank R&R. I was dumb enough to buy into how low cost the maintenance for a 996 is when in reality the cost can be incredibly high depending on what part fails. The 996's are from 9 to 14+ years old now. You could buy one that seems great but in reality you will be replacing more parts than you can imagine. I would just buy the better model; TT and you will avoid all of the potential engine problems. The GT2, TT, and GT3 Metzger designed engines have been described as "bomb proof". The ordinary M96 engine is, well to be polite, a mistake. A rather cruel joke played on the unsuspecting Porsche flock of sheep consumers.

KK, why do you keep your car? No one is forcing you to keep it. I'm often baffled to say the least...

Yes you can drive a 911 for seven years for $ 44K Start with brand new car...

If your dream is to drive a Porsche, then buy one. But honestly, these are expensive toys. You might make it seven years for $44K, but don't get one if you can't absorb the cost of a catastrophic failure. And it sounds like you can't. Would you advise someone making $40K a year to buy a Rolex? They certainly COULD, but that doesn't make it a wise decision.

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And then there is one guy on this forum that as far as I can recall has: A. Never actually had any part actually REQUIRE replacement in his time of ownership and B. Does ALL of his own maintenance work and C. Finds ways to and posts a DIY on how to reduce a potential $300 SAI replacement (or $1200 if you want the exact same part in a silver box) into a $10 bearing replacement and D. Finds a way to replace an IMS bearing, variously quoted at between a $600 and a $1200 cost with an equivalent (his words) $12 off the shelf bearing and E. Will tell anyone who cares to listen about how unbelievably expensive and unreliable these cars are to operate and that you'd be a fool not to spend 2x the amount for a turbo or GT3 as if they would never require maintenance or repair while he F. Has probably driven his car less than 3000 miles total while he has owned it and G. Shows no inclination to sell it which pretty much says a LOT more than anything else even though as far as I can tell he is not related to Bill Gates either. I just returned from driving mine 3005 miles in 9 days . Before I left I did take the time to clean out the radiator ducts (looked like it was never done judging by the pile of crap I found), changed the oil (because it was time) and checked my tire pressures. Traveled at speeds as low as 10mph for over an hour on an LA freeway up to 120mph (briefly in Wyoming with nobody around) with a trip average of over 70mph all-in and an average mpg of around 26. Weather temps between 46 (Vail Pass) and 113 (Arizona) and the car not once gave me any cause for concern AT ALL. Frankly this is what I expect from our Honda Minivan (except the speed), not a Porsche. What an utterly amazing car for the money, I am SO glad I never listened to the naysayers when I was looking who either never had one or never really experienced one. You seem handy enough, you've had an exotic before, I'm sure NSX parts aren't cheap either but you learn the best sources and just go with it. As long as your family is on board with it, go for it.