Engine Replacement III

Here we go again: This week my Indy mechanic finally got a chance to pull the motor out of my 996. He was able to get the head gaskets hoping this would fix my coolant burning problem. He pulled the head off of the driver side and found a slipped cylinder sleeve on the #1 cylinder. About 1" he said. It eventually wore a hole in the cylinder wall allowing the coolant in. I am going to take pics on Monday which I will post if anyone is interested. Is there anyone that still thinks that this may have been a problem with maintenance, tracking, overheating, abuse, neglect or that it would have mattered if I bought this car from the original owner? Didn't think so. I think this is just another case of a poor design/and or poor manufacturing in an early 99 engine. So far I am 4 weeks without my car and the weather has been beautiful. uggh. Sent another letter to PCNA with my new findings letting them know that this was not caused by any fault of mine. The fact that my problem occured after warranty rather than during warranty doesn't make it any less the SAME PROBLEM. How is there not a class-action lawsuit out there?

It could be from allot of things, its a terrible situation your in, but you need to get it repaired no matter how it happened.Good luck and I would like to see those pics.

Class action would require you to have proof of a design flaw. If that was the case there would more engine like your than you could count. That just simply isn't the case. Pay the money and move on. Sucks to be in your situation and I really feel for you but you are on a fishing expedition at this point that will catch no fish.

go to the post i made earlier with the 84 engine replacements with all the other 99s with slipped cylinders.. there's about 20 of them that lost engines at under 10k miles due to this... mine went out at 8,000 miles.. no doubt it's a manufacturing problem, but there really isn't much you can do about it, but pay up like i did..

I would like to see pictures.

i heard one guy in spain with a 99' got his rms fixed and sent a bill to porsche - and they sent him a cheque for $20 - a slap in the face.

And if you want to persue this, you better hire an Automotive Engineer ASAP. You don't need a class action, you can do this as an individual. Class action suits are primarily for public health issues, or safety design failures.......you have neither. Time to crap or get off the pot dude........I think very few of us want to see a "Engine Replacement XX" thread

I found a "reconditioned" motor on e-bay that is about 10 miles from my house for a GREAT price. At this point (I hate to admit it) but I am trying to cut my losses and move on. I know you are all glad to hear that. I also know Bob regretted this same decision, but I was planning on selling the car soon anyway. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...spagenameZWDVW I emailed this seller yesterday and told him my motor has a slipped cylinder sleeve. He said to add $1000 to the cost of the motor for the damaged core ($4200) for a total of $5200 plus R/R. Uggh. He offers a 90 day warranty which gives me plenty of time to say good riddance and sell the pig. I asked him, "if you are charging me $1000 extra for my core with this slipped sleeve, does that mean you can fix mine for $1000?" I have not heard back yet. Anyway, here is my question: My indy said he has a buddy at a dealer that will sell him the motor for $7900 (as long as he lies and says he does not know what is wrong with my core) and that will come with the 2 year warranty. Would you go the cheaper route to try and fix it solely for a dealer trade in, or would it be a better value to replace the motor with one that gets a warranty so I can feel Ok about selling it private party? It almost seems like I might get a better return for my money that way. Say the car is worth $35K running (pulling this number out of the sky) If I put $9,000 in it and sell it privately, I can probably get the $35K or maybe more due to the new waranty. Net $26K. If I buy the used motor for $6K and trade it in, they may give me $29K-30K? (all of these numbers are guesses) Net $23-24K. This is of course if Porsche does not come back and charge me another $2K for my damaged core. What do you guys think? Would my car be worth more with the new warranty, or less (since it does not have the original motor) than it was before this problem? thanks

sorry about your lose. but right after you fix your car, it's will be hard to sell it privately.

The cheapest route is to fix the car right (new motor, warranty) and then just keep driving it for the next couple of years. That's if your car is in good condition. If your car is rough, then just get the reconditioned motor and sell it to some non-enthusiast who wants the bragging rights of owning a Porsche at some point in his life before trading up to an SUV.

Peronsally I would pay $7900 for the new engine as long as it is one from Porsche with a 2 yr warranty. Then you are only paying it once and you have a new engine with a warranty! Am I missing something here?

I agree. The warranty alone makes it a no brainer. Whether he sell it or keeps it. Someone buying a used Porsche with a new factory motor should feel pretty good about it.

Or perhaps be concerned with why it needed one in the first place?

True, but I would think it would instill more confidence buying a car with a new factory motor with warranty then a car with a rebuilt motor on probably no warranty by the time sale has taken place.

Why not just fix the motor and keep the car? Folks are pulling/modifying/rebuilding/modifying/etc. these motors all the time. I assume that you loved the car when you bought it.?.? Is there some other, more extensive damage as a result of the slipped sleeve? A slipped cylinder sleeve is not like throwing a rod through the side of the motor......Throw in a new cylinder sleeve, drive the car and enjoy. my $.02. Dave

I have called several local mechanics and I have not found one yet that says changing the cylinder sleeve is an economical alternative. I have been told several times that by the time you get the motor disassembled enough to change that sleeve, and (most likely) get a different cylinder head that is sized to the new sleeve, it is not enough of a savings to matter when you factor in the fact that the new motor will come with a warranty. The reason I am do not want to keep the car is that I was planning to sell it this year regardless. My wife and I are planning to have another child and clearly the best time to sell a cabrio is in the spring/summer. I was able to get away with one car seat in my car for the last year and a half, but 2 car seats is not going to work. What about keeping it for a weekend car? First of all I do not want to end up like Bob, writing back in a month that my tranny is gone now and I have to dump more money into it. I would KICK myself for not selling it. Second, (and I am sure I will catch hell for this) my mechanic advises that if I want a weekend Porsche that will hold up after warranty, I should get a 993. Even if keep mine for a weekend driver, there is no guarantee that in 2 years when the warranty on my new motor expires, that it will not fail again. Third, I have a seriously bitter taste in my mouth as I do think this motor failure is Porshe's fault, and I find myself spitting on the floor when I drive by a 996. That is not a good sign. In short, I am DONE.

MY 1999 996 had a major issue with a liner as well. Cylinder #2. I spoke to Porsche service rep 3 times and he said at 61K mi. and that age, I am out of luck, no matter what the problem is. I agree someone should press Porsche, especially since there seems to be a problem with some of the early production 996's. Seems like someone ought to go after them for a design flaw. I just received a notice that if my Linclon Towncar had the MAF replaced that Ford would, under the terms of a lawsuit, repay me for the full amount. My father also just received word that Masonite would be paying for the new siding on his 5500 sq foot house due to the terms of a lawsuit. Both faulty products, both companys have to pay. How does Porsche get off scott free. I paid for my new motor $6500 plus a $2500 core, and you can believe I won't be sending my motor back until I have thoroughly documented the damages. PM me and we'll get a list going.

That is just an ignorant statement and invalid. Your indy needs to be taken out back for that one. I totally understand what you mean. My advice it to get the motor with the warranty and sell it. You will be able to sell it easier and you will have the peace of mind knowing you did it right for the next guy. Karma has a funny way of kicking you in the tail......in short, don't screw the next guy over with a shotty @ss questionable engine band-aid replacement.

Don't do the liner - Think about this a new motor is $6500 plus $1K to install and you'll have a car you can sell with a 2 year unlimited mile warranty. Plus, you won't have3 someone from Rennlist or a local Club calling you a crook. As for the 993 - have the heads redone on your 993 at 100K mi and you'll spend close to the same for an entire 996 motor. If you want really reliable get a 964 or a 944 turbo (mine had 140K mi of hard DE and AutoX!). I still love my 996 - lowered with a great suspension, sounds great with cat bypass pipes and outruns many higher powered cars at AutoX and tracks. Great car, Porsche just needs to stand behind the few bad eggs (especially since the Caymen has the same motor!). Good luck!

what's the hourly rate of your local porsche dealer? the reason bob had to do the first eng. replacement by an indy was due to the sky-high($150/hr) rate charged by his local p-dealer. if you local dealer charge you a reasonable rate, do it in the dealer. a fac. re-conditioned eng. is much, much better than repair the liner. 996 is too complex for indys, even for the dealer to rebuild.

totally agree with Dell - spend the 7900, essentially a new car! Why wouldnt you do it? Motors are replaced all the time.

actually the reason i had the first engine replacement done by an indy was because the dealer wanted $18,000+ my core was unusable and they wouldn't take it back due to the rod thrown out of the engine causing a hole in the core, which means they wouldn't take it back... it was either $7800 including labor "installed and out the door" for a used one with 8000 miles (no core needed to buy the used one), or $18,000 for the porsche dealership route with their $150 labor costs.. unfortunately the 8000 mile one failed due to the cylinder sleeve problems per se the previous posts.. so now i'm on #3 which was installed by the porsche dealer.. (the last time i actually had a usable core to return to them..) and then i drove home and my tranny went out, but that's another story gl joe.. i know how it feels to have a sour taste in your mouth.. my 996 is for sale right now.. i'm done with porsche.. the marque as far as i'm concerned cares as much about their customers as their non customers..

how much is the core-credit from porsche?

Have you tried getting a price off an Indy with the car as it is? They will be able to reapir at cost and the deal may stack up, just a thought if you want out of the car anyway.

I asked a couple of indy's about that and they both told me no one is making race cars out of the 996 - especially not the C4 cab. Too many options on my car too would not make it desireable for somone looking to build a track car. Anyway, here are a couple of pics - before and after so to speak.

actually the reason i had the first engine replacement done by an indy was because the dealer wanted $18,000+ my core was unusable and they wouldn't take it back due to the rod thrown out of the engine causing a hole in the core, which means they wouldn't take it back... it was either $7800 including labor "installed and out the door" for a used one with 8000 miles (no core needed to buy the used one), or $18,000 for the porsche dealership route with their $150 labor costs.. unfortunately the 8000 mile one failed due to the cylinder sleeve problems per se the previous posts.. so now i'm on #3 which was installed by the porsche dealer.. (the last time i actually had a usable core to return to them..) and then i drove home and my tranny went out, but that's another story gl joe.. i know how it feels to have a sour taste in your mouth.. my 996 is for sale right now.. i'm done with porsche.. the marque as far as i'm concerned cares as much about their customers as their non customers.. good BOB get off the f#^$$# board __________________

Sorry to hear about all of this, but if I were in your shoes, I would go with the warranty motor if you can really get one for $7,900 - the starting bid on that rebuild on ebay is $4,200 - for resale, I think you'll take a bigger hit than the $3,000 difference if you put in the rebuilt motor with no warranty. If I would have been looking at non CPO cars, I definitely would have considered a car with a replaced engine if that new engine were under warranty. Or...as others have mentioned, I would put in the warrantied motor and drive it myself for a while. Whatever happens, it sucks, so sorry again...and good luck.

This is a pic of a slipped sleeve? It's cracked/broken for sure, but you stated earlier the mechanic said it was "slipped" about an inch and a hole was worn in it. It's difficult to tell from the pic, but isn't the sleeve flush with the rest of the block surfaces? How does a sleeve slip towards the head? Wouldn't the head thats bolted to it stop it even if it broke free of the block?

2 Year Warranty is the way to go. Enjoy the car for awhile then sell.

Similar problem.Just got my 02 c4s back from the dealer today after only having it for 3 months. They said the valve guides were worn and they replaced the whole engine under warranty. I know what your feeling because I've had the same feeling for the last 2 weeks while my car sat at the dealer. It only had 15,000 miles on it. I agree that no car with the price point of a porsche should need to have the entire engine replaced. Its crazy. Let me know what you end up doing. I have to say though that at least I can smile again. I may even leave work early to take it for a drive.

Wow - glad your engine trouble worked out. Did you buy a CPO or is it under factory warranty still? Anyway, I was looking at the pics of my motor (which still make me very sad by the way - its been 5 weeks tomorrow) and it seems mine would have been an easy problem to prevent. I am no mechanical engineer, but it looks to me that if Porsche had added a small "bridge" from the cylinder sleeve to the wall of the block, it would strengthen the sleeve a lot. Maybe an inch deep, but still shallow enough for the coolant to still pass underneath (im red). Anyway, have a look at the pic and see if this makes sense. Spoke to my mechanic today and he said he knows the guy selling the motor on ebay for $4200. He got him to waive the additional $1000 core charge but says he can be a little "shady" to say the least. He doubts the motor is "reconditioned top and bottom" as the seller claims since Porsche AG seems to be the only ones who can fix these things. Did anyone see that turbo 996 motor on e-bay with only 10,000 miles for $17K? Now THAT would be fun!

i think a bridge would work...

Re the picture above. That isnt a slipped liner. That is a cracked cylinder. Normally caused by an airlock in the coolant that sits under the cyl and lets it overheat in that one spot, hey presto a crack appears and lots of steam. The slipped liner is the inner sleeve of the bore(can be seen with the color change) - this can pull down into the bore, when the piston comes up the rings pop over the top and next time down it smashes itself to pieces. We saw quite a few 996 engines over the past 3 years. Slipped liners etc. We saw a lot of unhappy owners, most of them low mileage and just out of warranty. One chap was having his car serviced by the main dealer when they called him to report the supsected critical fault, he said he would get down asap. When he arrived they presented him with the full price of the completed service which they had undertaken to complete before he came down. with that kind of attitude summing it up I dont think the majority of people have any option but to pay up and shut up. We did start to see some 2001> cars with the slipped liners, now that was a worry as they were supposed to have been improved out. www.red964.com/html/dyndex.php www.projectsonly.co.uk

crivens, you mean, others with engines failures? but the 996 engine is bulletproof! no need to worry according to the 4 or 5 posters on this forum that agree <g> and about the TT engine, yeah that's an expensive sucker.. used i saw em selling for $30,000 a pop.. but i very rarely, if have ever heard of a TT/GT3 engine failure.. i don't think that's really an issue.. just the m96 which has the design flaws that porsche refuses to acknowledge.. considering a m96 engine new is $25,000 from the dealer, I wonder the new price on the TT engine.. actually i don't want to know.. or care ..I will never own another porsche again.. i should have bought a used ford at the ford dealership instead, i would have had better reliability and customer satisfaction atleast..

Looks like a cracked cylinder to me. You are not the only one. Pic from AFJuvat.

you mean, others with engines failures? but the 996 engine is bulletproof! no need to worry according to the 4 or 5 posters on this forum that agree It's interesting the information that you get when you visit other forums. If you go to G35driver for example, you'll find that they complain a lot about rattles, squeaks and not being able to get 40K miles on their tires. No posts about engines blowing or seals leaking. Maybe there's a message there. I'm not suggesting that a G35 is comparable to a 911, but aside from minor annoyances, the G35 does seem to be truly bulletproof.

What the hell is a G35, some Japanese transportation appliance? Who cares how reliable their motor is -- it ain't no 911! Bill

After reading this thread and seeing the pix -- it occured to me -- working in car dealerships for 3 years in the mid-'90s, I dont recall ever hearing of an engine breaking up internally, even in crappy cars like mitsubishi and ford (2 makes I was around the most). It's unbelievable -- Almost makes me embrassed to own a Porsche.

You missed the point. German cars always charged a premium, and that premium was justified by the fact that they were built to last forever. It wasn't unusual for MB engines to last well over 200K miles when American cars were being junked after four years. Almost no one questioned Porsche reliability and quality until the 996. If you surf the various Porsche, BMW, and MB forums today, lots of people are asking questions about the reliability of these German manufacturers. How many 996 owners do you believe will sell their cars before the expiration of their warranty? My guess is that you won't find many informed 996 owners keeping their cars beyond the expiration of their warranties.

what it comes down to, that pisses me off more than anything about porsche corporate, is with all the HUGE influx of money they made with the 986 and 996, the only thing that happened was customer satisfaction, customer relations, and reliability got worse.. what the hell did they do with all that money? ...and to top things off.. they designed the 997 with the damn same engine as the troubled m96.. kind of like a "f*** you" to all of us.. like.. "we know our engine has issues, but you have money, so you can afford to replace it once it fails out of warranty..." how about some of those billions in profit being spent on r&d before releasing the 997 with the same exact inherint m96 problems... to me, that's just plain insulting to all porsche owners in general imho..

[QUOTE=bobporsche996].. what the hell did they do with all that money? ... [QUOTE] they bot VW

Design a motor to last the term of a standard lease and make it too complex for an indy shop to reasonably rebuild. Sure you'll have to replace a few of them under warranty but those 2nd and 3rd enthusiast owned non CPO cars will generate beaucoup bucks when they fail. They don't even have to defend themselves as their rep from 15yrs ago still generates comments like "Who cares how reliable their motor is -- it ain't no 911!" New slogan: Porsche, brilliant, simply brilliant.

996 911 has allowed Porsche to get very close to the top spot in the JD Powers' initial quality rankings and dependability rankings (quality after 3 yrs) for quite a few years now. In fact, quality ratings are said to be on par with that other paragon of sports car reliability, the NSX. Porsche uses a different process than everyone else to line their cylinders. The process is called LOKASIL. You can google the term or read this article for an overview: http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_bor...rybodys_ideas/ . Other than goodwill, there is not much Porsche can do to pay for repairs after the warranty period. If this was a common enough problem (i.e. early V8 BMWs that had to have engines replaced due to faulty Nikasil liners), Porsche should consider extending everyone's engine warranty by another 2 yrs.

>>>>how about some of those billions in profit being spent on r&d before releasing the 997 with the same exact inherint m96 problems... to me, that's just plain insulting to all porsche owners in general imho..<<<< How the heck do you know that's the case? You sit in on meetings with Porsche's project manager for the 997? I love pure conjecture couched as fact. Comparing a 300hp 3.4l aluminum motor (that means it's very light and has a very high specific output for those of your who might be forgetting those facts) to some cast iron pig of workhorse motor in terms of statistical reliability is damn silly.

Wouldn't you agree the RMS issue is a common enough problem inherint in 996 engines? What has porsche done with that? Not only are they not paying for out of warranty replacements, they won't even acknowledge it as an issue, so why would it be any different with something the would cost them 20 times as much?

"common enough problem" -more unsubstantiated,unrepresentative,skewed,biased,selective,trying to blame others for my own cockups BS from Bob. But hey since when has Bob bothered to listen to anyone's protestations about his crappy logic? The blinkers are on and he is squarley focused on Porsche.One of Bob's typical thought's" Mmmm... might have a look see on Rennlist. Wonder if there's anyone with the slightest engine problem I can use to peddle my own views. Bingo! here's one. Yeh, sounds good...upset with Porsche...yeh...out of warranty...oh he bought it without CPO...doesn't matter, I'll just bang on about my story...he'll latch onto it and hey presto! I've got another convert. Mmmm.. geez theres a lot of guy's here with problems...thats gotta be a statistically relevant sample to extrapolate to the rest of all known 996's.. their all gonna blow sooner or later surely...Hell why doesn't Porsche admit to this? They just won't see the truth will they? Some people are just so deluded."

No, it's a pesky oil leak.

Who said anything about "cast iron workhorse motor"??? Ever hear of 1994-1999 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4? 3.0 liter V6 , mounted so that each bank of 3 cylinders has its own turbocharger and intercooler. rated at 320hp at 6500 rpm, and 315 ft-lb at 2600 rpm. I'm glad you're happy with your 996, but you're only kidding yourself if you think Porsche has any excuse for producing engines that, due to the design and manufacturing, are prone to having cylinders fall apart or crack at relatively low miles. It's reasonable to expect that it should happen so rarely, it should be almost unheard of IMO.

Anyway, tomorrow I am going to Huntington Beach to get that motor for $4200 - my mechanic went (on his own time) to look at the motor, which I thought was nice, and got him to waive the $1000 core charge. So, $4200 plus tax, plus $1200 install and remove (C4) and I can get the thing sold and it will probably NEVER have a problem again. Soon I will be signing off for good. I may check in from time to time to listen to Bob rant, but he may be gone soon too. Joe

why would you make a big deal out of this if there were no engine problems? this response wouldn't exist if that was the case, wouldn't that seem logical? obviously you seem to feel there is a huge influx of blown engines posts that i respond to.. if the m96 is such a bulletproof and great engine, then why would there be a single post about a blown engine in the first place to respond to? people buy other cars used without dealer warranties.. infact, i'd be willing to bet that 97%+ of used vehicles purchased do not have an extended warranty from the manufacturer (cpo, pre-owned, etc..)... are 97% of those individuals morons and to be criticized for not paying $10,000 more for a lexus with 40,000 miles just because it has 2 years extra of a warranty? (imho that would be a moronic thing to do with the reliability on many pre-owned vehicles) CPO is a rather new concept.. what did people do before CPO? i suppose with your logic, every used car owner was a moron... is porsche that unreliable, that you even admit that a cpo is a requirement when it comes to buying one, or one should be fully at fault for the engine blowing up on them out of warranty due to a manufacturing defect? i bought my car with 44,000 miles under the presumption of driving 2000 to 3000 miles a year as a fourth vehicle.. thinking i wouldn't have any problems.. i didn't think paying $15,000 extra for the same vehicle with a CPO was worth it at the time, considering my odds with such little mileage driven.. obviously i was mistaken.. is it too much to ask that a car driven that little wouldn't run into close to $50k in repairs in a thousand miles of unwarrantied driving? try thinking before you speak...

Joe I hope the replacment motor works out painlessly(relatively) for you. >>>>Ever hear of 1994-1999 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4? 3.0 liter V6, mounted so that each bank of 3 cylinders has its own turbocharger and intercooler. rated at 320hp at 6500 rpm, and 315 ft-lb at 2600 rpm.<<<< You mean the almost 4000lb car with a cast iron block that wasn't developed in a race car? Yeah, you've got me there. What do you think that complete powerplant weighs?

Here's my .02. You go out and buy a "used" Porsche and think, "this is a pure sports car that is bulletproof". The truth is that you have no idea what the previous owner did to the car and how it was used. Was it raced? Did the previous owner modify the ECU? These are important facts. A car that is raced will not last long no matter how well it is designed and built. An engine that is stressed by having it maxed out by some back yard tuner will not last either. And doing both is a recipe for disaster and yet, this is very common. Yes, RMS is an issue. I just don't think it is as big as it seems on this board. When I am relating to my friends about how well the Porsche is designed I simply ask them to look at the typical club race (not brand specific) and tell me what the most common marques among the 10 year old and older cars is. Oh, and by the way, I have never seen a 1994-1999 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 on the track ever.

Well if that ain't a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.

exactly, but doesn't the same go for CPO cars as well? who's to say a CPO car wasn't treated horribly by the previous owner? sure porsche checks everything out, but that doesn't mean, as any private party purchaser can do the same type of inspection... and either can have a major failure immediately thereafter purchase.. the only difference between a cpo car and a private party car is the two year warranty.. and the cpo would cover the replacement.. while i believe cpo is the only way to go used, i also don't think it's acceptable for out of spec engines to have to be replaced by the hundreds (atleast) on vehicles under 10,000 miles due to design flaws that porsche refuses to acknowledge exist, when they clearly do...

How many of the posters that complain about engine replacements are both less than 10k miles and caused by design flaws (by which I guess you mean RMS failure)

So, the M96 motor was developed in a race car? That's news to me! Which race car was that -- the Boxster?

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/misc/musicboohoo.gif

Dear Bob, you will never get it. While you may own several highend cars you clearly know nothing about cars. Your comparison of Porsche to Lexus clearly demonstrates that. No one who actually understands what a sports car is would buy a Lexus expecting to get a true sports car. The cars are designed for a completely different purpose. The risk in buying an used true sports/performance car is, as was previopusly stated by others, that it history as to use and maintenance are basically unknowns. To buy one used without a warranty when a warranty is available for a bout $1800 more is just foolish. The two year CPO from Porsche gives you not only peace of mind for the two years but is also along enough period to assume that any major flaws in the car will present themselves. Bob please sell your car buy a SC 430 and go complain on a lexus board how it doesn't perform like the 996 you sold.

Look at my previous post in the archives where I listed 84 engine failures not by RMS posted on the forums... do the math with 129,000+ 996s out there and less than 1% of the 996 population on the forums and that easily converts to thousands of engine failures...

lexus isn't my cup of tea, but i respect those that buy them as they are reliable cars.. i bought an sl55 thank you very much, which i do enjoy.. 500hp/500lb of torque, gets me around town and handles excellent.. while not a stick, still a nice performer... and, no i would have no concerns of problems buying an sl55 or sl65 used.. the engines don't blow up like porsche engines... i have yet to ever hear of anyone with an r129 ever having to have an engine replaced..

NO NO NO Bob, you cannot mistreat statistics like that. There are all sorts of inherent errors in drawing a linear conclusion from that ratio, including but not limited to a likely skewed sample set. What you need to do is quiet down now. We get it. You are understandably upset. But enough is enough. Your unsubstantiated claims have become frivolous and destructive, not to mention highly biased from your own experiences. It's time for you to put your money where your mouth is and file a legal claim against Porsche. In so doing, perhaps you will find the data that you seek and ultimately determine if the company has some culpability in producing an engine with an undisclosed mechanical flaw. Until then, you reek of these lunatics that stand on the street corner holding placards reading, "The End is Near." I don't mean to belittle you or your unfortunate experience, but just what are you trying to accomplish at this point? Your posts apropos RMS leaks, slipped cylinder sleeves and engine reliability are no longer constructive.

Bob, I know you've heard this before but you cannot make that assumption about how many non-RMS failures exist. The other point I was making is your claim of under 10k mile engine failures. That is not part of the 84 failures. I'll bet Mercedes wishes they could have built a F1 engine that didn't fail last year! So much for that brand! Lexus has race engine failures as well. I guess you need to buy a Kia. Can't beat that warrantee.

Hmmmmm....this must some sort of new math that I missed learning then.

Bob, I still have my open offer for you so that you may learn exactly how to report, interpret, and use stats. My next stats class is at 1230-230p today (pacific time). Just head over to the college and come to my class (PM me for the building and room number), I am sure my studetns wouldn't mind. In fact, I think they would get a kick out of you

Oh yeah Bob Mercedes are the be all and end all of quality My good friend is a manager at one of the largest Mercedes dealers on the Easy Coast, he's been freeking out lately with new customers complaints with motors dropping dead and even one s500 that they replaced the whole car after its first motor failure only to have the replacement dump almost all its oil on the owner's garage floor two days after he brought it home. You truly are brilliant, spouting "facts" without having any real information to back your "facts".

bet Mercedes wishes they could have built a F1 engine that didn't fail last year! Building a durable F1 engine is easy. Building the most powerful and durable engine is tough.

Bob, we well understand you bought a Porsche because you wanted to have fun driving it, talking about it, maybe tracking it and who knows maybe you like polishing it. Whatever. The point is you laid out the cash and then your hopes were dashed because the car bombed out. So now you are pi$$ed at the whole thing. It's completely understandable. You do get, that the rest of us bought our Porsches for the same kind of reasons right? We all could have bought basic transportation but we instead paid more. And we visit this site to learn and to hopefully contribute something to this community that will be of value. Now what are you trying to accomplish by singing the same negative song over and over? Do you want to ruin the Porsche ownership experience for the rest of us? If you're so fed up why would you want everyone else to be upset? What's in this for you Bob to keep making the same point over and over? Do you think everyone here is so stupid they don't get your point yet?

I for one am considering purchasing a 996 and am glad there are varying opinions on the board. I don't believe I would feel all warm and fuzzy if I bought a car based on the one dimensional view that the 996 was/is/always will be a perfect car and had the motor crap out 5,000 miles later. Having two guys on this board with cars that each required 3 motor replacements in under 100,000 miles sure makes me stand up and take notice. I believe access to information such as this is part of reason this board exists and shouldn't be supressed so that those who already own these cars can feel warm and fuzzy about their decision to purchase. I for one have owned several pcars over the past 20 yrs and have never seen in a pcar the number of or the extent of catastophic failures of a model as I have heard of in the 996. I have taken many of my cars to the 200,000 mile mark and in all cases, any engine failure was due to normal wear with fortelling symptoms that indicate attention is needed. I never considered a rod sticking out of an engine or a gallon of oil underneath the car to be a symptom.

Dave, you're missing the point. Bob's posts are ALREADY duly noted on this forum. Anyone can read all of his posts going back since the problem first began. Indeed, reading past posts is one of the best things of ANY forum in order to gain a perspective. However, I hardly think that hearing about his problem over and over adds anything new to posts going forward. He's made his point; now he should move on.

If Bob were constantly starting new threads which talked about his engine failures, then I think you might have a point. But in this thread, he was responding to another poster who experienced an engine failure. Are you saying he should keep quiet and not share his experiences with the other poster?

Edward, I know and understand what your saying. It just seemed that Dave S was stating that nothing is gained by stating negative factual information when in fact negative information has caused me to hold out for the best example I can find, not turned me off to a 996 altogether. 99% of the problems I run into with my current pcars can be fixed under the car/hood in a weekend. Not so with the 996 hence the caution.

Dave (and the rest of you) that think the 996 is a vary scary proposition for purchase b/c there are so many blown engines you fail to understand one very simple descriptive stat......the sheer volume of 996's sold is astronomical compared to the others models. The 993 is a very beautiful car and one I would love to add to my garage as well but is NOT better than a 996 in any way EXCEPT resale. And why? Sheer numbers of those available. If they (PAG) made the same number of 996's that they made of 993's there would not be the resale value disparity and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What I see writen above is Mercedes doing something about issues immediatly to keep the customers happy. Porsche is not, in warantee or not.

oh guys, people can make up statistics to prove anything they want, 64% of people know that.

That's a more than fair point. It IS important to hear everyone's opinions. Just bear in mind that we're currently on iteration 3 of this thread. Moreover, many of us get a little agitated when Bob makes sweeping statements with accurate and non-biased facts and details that can be analyzed. We're not looking to put him down, in fact it's important to hear about all Pcar problems so that if it ever happens to one of us we know what to do. But, there's a difference between pointing something out and smothering us with it over and over.

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Dave Howerdel, no, I absolutely was not saying to curb negative comments. All kinds of information and feedback are important and can be very useful. And I'm sure we all feel for the person who encounters a serious and expensive problem and wants to rant a bit. We need the facts as they are be they negative or positive. But a poster is not constructive when he makes the same point over and over and adds nothing new. Adding nothing helps nobody so I was just referring to the repetition.

Dave, I am also looking for the same car you are and have been proceeding with caution based on the engine failure posts i've read in here. After doing this for a few months, however, You do start to detect a pattern to these posts, and 100 of them are made by Bob. Due to this fact, you begin to ask yourself, is it really widespread or is a lot of this the same one guy posting over and over? For all the bad I've read about this car in this forum, there are a lot of places one would consider reputable that hold this car's reliability in high esteem. JD powers ranked the 2002 911 number two in LONG -TERM reliability, just below the lexus ( no shock there). Now say what you will about them, but they do get 1,000's of test samples to reach their conclusions. There appears to be little doubt that Porsche makes the most reliable german-built cars, buy may/may not have an occasional catastrophic failure with their engines for no driver-based reason ( like an moneyshift). So, like yourself, I love the car but i just don't know In the interim I've decided to buy an m3 convertible and wait another yr/18 months on the 911. Also, have a little understanding about some of the members here tiring of Bob's posts, they probably are a little skewed based on his frustrations < frustrations well earned by his experiences>.

JD powers ranked the 2002 911 number two in LONG -TERM reliability, just below the lexus ( no shock there). Now say what you will about them, but they do get 1,000's of test samples to reach their conclusions. There appears to be little doubt that Porsche makes the most reliable german-built cars, buy may/may not have an occasional catastrophic failure with their engines for no driver-based reason ( like an moneyshift). Does anyone know the methodolgy used by JD Powers? I know that their new car quality reports are determined by the number of problems reported. In other words if the owner of a new car has a rattle that needs repair, that counts as one problem. If another owner needs his engine replaced, that counts as one problem. I remember back in '02, JD Powers rated the quality of the M3 very high, despite the fact that hundreds of its engines were blowing and there was a recall for all '02 M3s built within a specified period of time. BTW I owned an '02 M3 with a blown engine. It took BMW a month before they were able to get a new engine. BMW did give me the extended 6 yr/100K mile warranty. Needless to say, despite having only one problem , a blown engine, I did not consider my M3 a reliable car.

The JD power survey for used cars also deals with the severity of problems in additin to the number of problems. So it should reflect engine failures as something different then needing new wiper blades. As to Bob I am statring to think that he just enjoys stirring the pot and watching the rest of us do a slow boil.

This is Joe's 3rd thread on the subject, not his 3rd engine.

After reading all of this I am glad I own a 993...................

Back to your board then J/K......love the 993 and would love to add one to my garage but the 996 is a great car and superior to the 993 as is the 997 superior to the 996.....but the problem with the 996 is that was just WAY OVERPRODUCED so any problems are highlighted and blown WAY out of proportion.

IMHO, if Bob *really* wanted to contribute (as opposed to adding a few more kicks to a long-dead horse) he would say something like "Buyer beware - be sure to check my problems here: <post link> <post link> <post link>." Re-stating things that have already been debated ad nauseum only irritates people. Never mind the statistics...